Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies

Subject: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:12 PM

I have picked up here and there some helpful suggestions on several song circle thread discussions how to conduct myself when being new to song circles.
Would it be possible to focus this thread on giving a new person a Guideline for Beginners as to what a new person should expect, what is expected of them and how to conduct themselves at a song circle.
If this thread feels redundant I would appreciate being directed to threads I should review on this matter.

Little Neo who is a little interested in getting a little more involved

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 02:43 PM

Neo, different song circles have different customs (e.g., do you go round the circle one at a time or do you jump in when moved to do so). The Magic Word, as in so much related to music, is: LISTEN. Are people singing songs with choruses that everybody joins in on? Are they focusing on bringing new songs to the group or on treasured favorites? Do they use a particular book? Are there instrumentalists who join in with an accompaniment, or does the circle allow each person to "perform"?. Does one person seem to be jumping in more than others? (Try not to be that person.) Do people request songs from others when it's their turn? If you are planning to sing at a new circle, it would probably be a good idea to have several songs ready: one with a chorus, one you like to sing yourself, one everyone is likely to know, one that may be new, etc., so you can pick what's most appropriate.

But don't get too hung up on etiquette. Just listen, appreciate everybody's contribution, and have fun singing -- that's what it's all about.

Aloha,
Mark (who really misses song circles)

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 04:12 PM

I think Mark has said it all. Whether it is a folk club, jam session or song cirle just try to be observant and feel your way gently. Some places will have a leader and some sort of run themselves but they all seem to have thier own set of undertood "rules" which can take a little bit of time to figure but if you just try to follow the way the regulars go about things, you should be OK.

Jon

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 04:38 PM

1. Take your turn.

2. Be in tune.

3. Do NOT play along unless invited to. (different situation than a jam session)

4. If folks Do play along and you don't know the chords to the song just listen. (you'll win a HUGE amount of respect from the folks who respect the music)

5. Try to sing songs with easily sung choruses (especially if you're new)

6. Understand that there are often two schools of thought at song circles. People with good social skills make a song circle fun. Those without, are aggressive, play loudly (and often badly) or seem to never sing without "THE BOOK", and as surely as night becomes day, will eventually drive the subtler ones away. I haven't seen this happen "many" times, I've seen it happen "every" time.

7. Take the time to memorize a song so you can "live it". Some folks have a devil of a time memorizing, but others just don't appear to have tried hard enough.

8. Beware of getting SERIOUS FLACK for advocating #s 1 through 8.

Shrug it off however. Music, when sung and played with "commitment and investment" (not virtuosity) is wonderful, truly a tonic for the soul....you'll see.

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 05:03 PM

The best singarounds are when one song leads into another, so you get a theme developing, and modulating. But it doesn't often happen for too long, because inevitably people haven't got a song ready to sing which follows on readily.

Mind, if you can stretch a point, you can argue a connection between the most unlikely songs. There are probably some peope on the Mudcat who could argue a link between any two songs at random. (Let's try it sometime...)

Going round the circle seems fairer, and if there are lots of people who don't know each other it's probably the best way. But with a sensitive person in the chair who uses their eyes and their imagination, picking out people around the room and knowing who they are, and bringing in the newcomers.

It means you can more readily have instrumentals in between the songs at the right time, and stories. It's a real skill, and a magical evening can be woven by someone with it. (But if the person running the session doesn't have these skills it can be dire, with people being left out and bored and irritated.)

I think the crucial bit of etiquette is to be listening to the other people and interested in them, rather than just waiting impatiently to "go on". It's not about giving an individual performance, it's about making a contribution to a collective activity.

And I also think that singarounds probably work best without too much in the way of instruments. It greatly increases the range of songs you can sing for one thing, because most of us know more songs to sing than we feel happy to play on the spur of the moment. Also it makes for much freer and better singing much of the time - except where we need an instrument to keep us in tune.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 05:04 PM

every song circle is different:

some have leaders, some don't. some meet weekly, which allows a huge body of songs to become known well by a consistent core, and some meet monthly. some meet in public spaces, and some meet in private homes. some meet early and end early, and encourage children to attend, while some start later and end in the wee hours of the morning, and discourage children from attending. some have lots of instrumental accompaniment, some don't. some encourage the use of lyrics, some discourage them. some want to hear only sing-a-long songs, others will be happy with the occasional solo performance or instrumental. some have a theme each time they meet, some rarely have a theme, but try to be sensitive to the mood of the room while suggesting a new piece. some are composed of participants only, while some are split between the actual participants and a small listening audience. some encourage clapping after each contribution, while some strongly discourage applause, and prefer to listen to the hush that roars after a good song and good harmonies.

not only that, but each circle will be very different itself each time it meets. every variable creates a new experience. no circle can be judged well on only one or two visits, because things can vary so much within a circle from one meeting to another.

song circles are a great way to meet people who love good music. they are a treasure, and not to be taken for granted. good friends, good music. great combination!

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Joan
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 07:16 PM

Here's a question that somebody might have an answer for: Is there a way to orchestrate a big song circle so that it doesn't always plod around one after the other? The people who've prepared a song worry that it'll go on so long, they'll never get a chance to sing it. The shy ones tell me they get anxious knowing their turn is creeping up. I wonder if anyone has thought up a way to mix up the order and still give everyone a turn. Names in a hat? Folk clubs in the UK usually have someone who runs the floor singing, and those who bring a song are chosen in the order that person chooses.

Also, in an unstructured singing circle, deliver me from the singers who don't seem to realize that a little silence may simply mean somebody is trying to screw up the courage to begin a song. It doesn't mean nobody has one to sing. But there are those who instantly jump into the void, even though they've already sung three while others haven't sung at all.

Joan

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 08:43 PM

good options, joan,
going around the circle in turn can certainly increase nervousness, but it can also increase preparedness.
at our circle, we all have the option to sing, request, pass or defer. anyone who arrives late gets a chance before the break to do the same.
so, if you're too nervous the first time around, you can skip your turn and still get another go at it.

after the break (food and drink), our circle goes into unstructured time. there are certainly some who take more than their share of the time, which can be frustrating and intimidating, but there are also those precious souls who encourage the quieter ones to participate.....bless them!!! without them, many of us would never have found the nerve to join in.

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: sophocleese
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 08:47 PM

Its during the unstructured circles that I find guitars very frustrating. People don't stop playing them, quietly checking out fingerings etc, so that you cannot find your key and then just I'm getting my breath one of them starts strumming loudly to begin a song and I'm out of time again and I still have to find my key the next time there's a pause. I'm still tyrying to find a way of gently letting people who won't stop singing that its time for them to take a back seat and let others sing. Any ideas?

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 09:16 PM

Sometimes a "veteran" member of the group can say, just as they see that certain person taking a breath to sing song #4, "[name], we haven't heard from you in a while (or "yet") -- is there something you'd like to do?" This is made a little easier when there is a recognized leader, as Jon mentioned, but usually there is a kind person who can, as the jargon goes, facilitate.

Sometimes you just have to take the bull by the horns and in a private moment (*not* during the circle, but during the break or at some other time), say something to the "offender." If you put it in terms of how some people are shy or nervous and need extra time or encouragement before they "jump in", that doesn't point the finger directly but hopefully will get the message across. Of course, some will use a more subtle method: "For Pete's sake, shut up and let somebody else sing a song!" Depends on the personalities involved, of course, and on how big a problem it is.

I really like black walnut's arrangement of having a turn-taking circle before the break and unstructured time after. Sounds like the best of both worlds.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 09:16 PM

Joan:

We used to regularly attend a rather large song circle which used a rather unusual procedure. A signup sheet was circulated while everyone was getting settled and you could sign up for a group song, a solo, or both. You could also indicate roughly when you wanted your turn (e.g. before the break).

Although this group was actually run by one individual, each night he would twist the arm of someone to lead the circle. The leader was then free to call on people from the list in any order he or she saw fit. If the leader was sensitive to the mood of the group throughout the evening and used his or her knowledge of what kind of things people did, we would all have a great time. When the list was exhausted, the leader relinquished his or her position and it was every person for himself.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 09:25 PM

Soph, it's hopeless. In the 2 years I've been on Mudcat this subject has been done to death! Some folks are just rude...and don't know it. It's back to that "social skills" thing I was talking about. It's why song circles, group therapy sessions, bluegrass jams, Church congregations, and card games all follow the same path. Eventually the ones who take their enjoyment of music seriously, split off into another group....and the same pattern happens again.

The only answer is "closed sessions"....and then you're called "elitist".

Joan, a couple of times at "The Woods Music and Dance Camp" I was asked to facilitate very large song circles. I tried a few things, but the best was to ask folks to break into 3 separate groups. Nobody complained and everyone in each circle got to sing 4 or 5 songs. Naturally, the next day I heard that "someone" complained that I'd messed with the "community spirit". Ya can't win! Ha Ha.

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Gypsy
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 12:38 AM

I can empathize with Rick. We have weekly sessions, but never exceed 12 people. Which means, that when we have more, we just add another night to the week for music. We are pretty ridgid about going in the circle, with people accepting, or declining the turn as the mood strikes them, but everyone has opportunity with each revolution. People who don't play nice and abide by this are not invited back. This is not being elite, its called survival. The whole point is to have fun, right?

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: GUEST,mary g
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 01:27 AM

here are my opinions... 1. if you have a groupthink that has evolved, be kind enough to let new people in on it. To use ____ as an example, they were forever telling new people just sing whatever you like, and then when they sang "Today while the blossoms still cling to the vine.." it was not really appreciated...if you really want to do a particular type of songs..say so. 2. If you really hate the blue book, say so. Don't forbid people from using it for themselves, but discourage them from insisting that others turn to page so and so..explain why...... 3. Bad music will drive out good. 4. Instruments will drive out singing. 5. Someone came up with a good rule for parodies....a regular song should not be followed by it's parody...it is very jarring and I think insulting to the singer......and parodies will drive out regular songs...

that's all for now. mg

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 06:37 AM

My pet peeve is people who talk when the rest of the group is singing. Sometimes, they even shout so they can hear each other as the singers try to sing louder to drown them out. Conversation during a group sing makes singing very difficult. Don't think going into the next room will help - if you must talk, go outside.
Grrr.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: MichaelM
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 08:49 AM

Sophocleese Here's the view from the other side of the "I wish the guitarists would shut up" fence. When I go to a song circle I have not only learned the words to the songs I would like to do but I know exactly what keys I intend to perform them in. Singers should have enough respect for the flow of the music not to have play hunt for the key i.e. sotto voce humming the tune looking for the extreme highs and lows to see if they can handle them. Meanwhile the rest of the group sits feeling the energy dissipate. If you don't have access to an instrument to determine a comfortable starting pitch (at home where you're learning the song) at least ask one of the instrumentalists what key you were in at the end of your first presentation of the song. Remember it and ask someone to give you that pitch or chord the next time you do that song. This signals your listeners that you are ready to sing and that you are no wasting their time.

Michael

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:13 AM

It strikes me, as a similar neophyte, that one of the things going on that probably complicates matters is the "image" of what is supposed to be happening in a song circle. I guess it is because it seems on the face of it a strange hybrid anyway. Some people seem to have an image of a Quaker meeting (or a hymn sing of sorts) -- the going around in a circle, asking the quiet people, etc. The use of the "Book" solidifies that. Other people seem to have an image of, oh I don't know, a country porch in the early evening where people pick whatever comes to mind, and the family and friends chime in (sort of Doc Watson and his Family). Still others seem to see it as a kind of Irish pub singalong. Maybe others have a campfire image. Other people probably see it is as an "open stage". This must confuse people as they try and sort out their manners: since the manners and protocols are different for each of these quite different sharing experiences. Or is everyone clear about the image of what "a songcircle" is?
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 11:52 AM

Peter, I think you have to take these things as you find them as there are so many variables. Re the etiquette, there are some things like not playing an instrument unless invited to when somebody else if singing (unless of course the event has been specifically set up to allow that) and tuning / talking when somebody else if singing are simply rude and basic good manners should tell people that.

Jon

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 12:03 PM

I think in informal on off gatherings, like the kind that happen at festivals, it just calls for basic good manners and consideration for others. To enjoy the unpredictability and spontaneous nature of such events.

Regular ones are probably best left to everyone being at least offered a turn in a circle. This should always give enough advance warning to prepare or decline to perform. It is a very simple method and presents less problems than others tend to. But organisers among us, do need to have something to organise, I accept.

If there is to be a leader or different rules, then these should be available and easily seen and always kept to. It matters less what these rules are than making sure that there are known and strictly followed. The choice then can be made, as to whether it is to the potential participant's liking, or not.

If I have a preference, it is for the former.

To stir the pot a little: At an informal gathering this weekend, which was mainly instrumental, a singer sang a song, after talking loudly, all through the tunes. The players politely listened to the song and then carried on. The singer went away and returned after short while to ask, "does anyone want a song"? Receiving no reply, the singer then went off in a little bit of a huff and the tunes continued.

It should be recognised, on these occasions, by singers, that many instrumental players are also capable of singing but choose not to in such a gathering and if all those present did chose to sing, there would be no room left for tunes. Given that fact, I think that melody players are usually surprisingly generous when incidents like this happen.

Guitar players however, just can't win, under any circumstances.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 12:55 PM

Shambles, your posting makes me wonder, are there ever any instrumental circles where all participants are given a turn to lead a song with their instrument but there is no singing unless of course a singer is asked to sing.
That would make an interesting evening.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 12:59 PM

Neo, That's us! In Wyoming. Most of us can sing, but not well at all, so we prefer mostly instrumentals. Our play list only has about 4 vocals. Course, if anybody wants to do a vocal, they are always welcome to!

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Mudjack
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 02:20 PM

All are very good ideas, Rick pretty much can write the book,
BIMHO...BURY THE BELOVED BLUE BOOK. I really have a problem with the blue book when folks use it as a juke box selection list because they want to "hear" a song Odetta did back in sixty two and think a song circle can immulate Odetta. Sing or select songs that are practicle and familiar.
Avoid five minute disertations explaining what the song is all about, just sing the #@&%#@ song.
I like the advise of all the contributors. It's right on.
Mudjack

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 02:58 PM

"The blue book" - I take it that's something called "Rise up Singing". Noone I know has ever seen it. I don't think we're any the poorer. Probably a handy book - but there are hundreds of good song books, and everyone picks around among the ones they know. (And the DT is the best of them all, but not very portable.)

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From:
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 03:04 PM

Little Neo, one of those groups is in Halifax. The Irish group meets at the Dalhousie University Grad house on Monday nights after an evening of Irish Dance classes. They then do their music, and don't seem to encourage any vocals.

I've seen the book Rise Up Singing. Nice, but sometimes the song isn't as I recalled it.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 03:31 PM

Ah McGrath, I think you've nailed the nail squarely. Rise up Singing is a very good reference book (except for some of the REALLY silly word changes) but it DOES evoke nostalgia, and I think that's how it gets "mis-used" at song circles. Watching someone trying to sing while squinting at small print while playing the chords for the first time in their lives is PAINFUL. I can see how some folks get their shorts in a knot. Also discourages anyone who actually KNOWS the song from even playing along, 'cause of the probable key and chord discrepancies.

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Joan
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 04:15 PM

Funny that The Book seems to be used all the time in some places and not at all in others. A rule might be set forth that participants need to know at least ONE song by heart. I guess people are terrified they might forget the words...and who among us hasn't...if they aren't there to read? The dependence on having The Book reminds me of some sort of church service: "Will the congregation turn to page 47 for the singing of (your favorite song here)." Great to have access to a collection of good songs in one little book (nevermind some word/tune discrepancies)--a good starting place for a newcomer, but for Pete's sake, start by learning just one of them (then another, etc.)!

Besides, it looks really strange to watch a circle of tops-of-heads; faces buried in the pages. Joan

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 06:34 PM

Neo

In most tune sessions everyone who wants to has the opportunity to lead a tune or set of tunes. More so in the more informal spontaneous gatherings. When the current tune stops, you just start.

In the sessions that have 'leaders', it can be more of a problem but lot of players are quite happy not to start a tune and are happy just to play along. Sessions are more of a collective effort than one of personal glory

Songs are not usually done at these sessions because all the musicians can do is 'twiddle their thumbs', whilst the song is in progress.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 06:53 PM

If you're playing the bones it's a bit tricky leading off a new tune. And there's lots of us can never remember a tune until we start playing - and that includes some fine musicians. Memory is a funny crature.

As has been said, the only basic rule is toi be respectful and polite, and take note of the customs of the country.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: magician
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 07:03 PM

always encourage a new singer to gain confidense by giving their tremoring little voice the same respect as you would the old shantie singer that sailed before the mast.

bear in mind that you are an unknown singer you must come early to the session (organisers know their regulars who will finish the night well).

try to remember the words, but if you don't, we've all been their and won't be too worried.

wait for your turn to come round and SING.

if you keep getting missed out let the organiser know that you are prepared to sing.

and come someone arrange a speling checker.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 07:04 PM

rick....what does it help to say that "this subject has been done to death"?

not all of us have read all threads. not all of us have been at mudcat long enough to have had the opportunity to discuss all the topics we're interested in. i don't want to think of mudcat as a museum. it's a living place.

maybe we'll say the same things over and over again. i don't have a problem with that. if we were all afraid to repeat a topic, who would ever ask a question or submit an idea?

back to the topic: i really like peter t.'s way of looking at the variety of song circles. good descriptions. if we have hard and fast ideas of the 'ideal' song circle, we are not appreciating that different song circles are composed of people who come from a variety of musical backgrounds. people are not going to joing a circle or learn, or grow, if they can't start from a place of comfort in a group. and lord help us if we ever think we've stopped needing to learn or to grow, and think that we've created the ideal group. everytime a new person comes along, he/she will add a new dimension.

as a good friend once said, 'there's a whole lotta songs out there'. there's a whole lotta groups out there, too.

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 07:18 PM

Hey black walnut......I don't think that's what Rick meant. In responding to Soph's question, I think he simply meant that in the hundreds of posts we've had on this topic it seems that there is NO answer in dealing with the problem of some folks that works. Rick isn't the type to knock discussion on a topic that we've covered before and often encourages it!

Now ME on the other hand.......I NEVER mind griping about topics!

Seriously, all ideas are welcome here as you know, but I think that the problem of rude people in a song circle or at a performance is laced with so many variables that an all encompassing answer is probably not available.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 07:30 PM

spaw, i think and hope rick knows me well enough to realize i was playing a bit of devil's advocate. rick is one of the most encouraging and inclusive performer/teacher/leaders in folk music that i know.

it is discouraging, however, when some catters say 'this topic has already been thoroughly discussed at .... blue clicky thingy ....'. (i know, i know, rick wasn't saying that!). it think it can make one feel that a question or contribution is unappreciated....that everyone here has thought it all through and heard it all.

i don't remember you splitting up the song circle at the woods when i was there, rick. it must have been before my time. lately, there has been a split form between song circles and instrument jammers.

big hugs,
~black walnut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 07:49 PM

I agree with you b-w re: topics coming up again and new people or ANYONE jumping in with something new or their opinion and it can be discouraging to get one of us old farts saying, "Oh not again." However there are times when an "Old Fart" will give out some blue clickies to previous threads simply to allow the folks on the current one to look at what's been said.

Which brings up a sore point with me. Forget the past threads, sometimes on a current thread the same info will be posted over and over showing that the person NEVER read the other posts and that always gives me the feeling that they think THEIR opinion/info is the only one that matters. This doesn't just happen on BS threads (muscal or otherwise), it happens on the "serious" music threads as well. We have a current thread where ALL the questions of the original poster were answered in the first three posts. The thread went on and other info came in, but several people posted only the answers that had ALREADY been given.

I guess that's why when we get into those arguments over "gratuitous" posting it strikes me odd that those who often complain about me or kat or some other BSer are the very people who do what I just described. We also have a number of members who say, "I didn't read all the other stuff, but here's what I think." I'm always tempted to reply, "If you ain't got time for everyone else, I ain't got time for you! Bugger off."

Sorry to go off like that b-w........Always like your stuff and your contributions to the 'Cat.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 08:32 PM

It is interesting you should bring this issue up about creating threads that seem to have been discussed thoroughly before. I was kind of concerned about this myself when I created this thread. But I guess the best approach for me is to start a thread, even if the subject has been discussed many times before and request those similar thread topics to be linked to the current thread.
Aine seems to do that kind of volunteer work with in a flash!

As for reading the entire thread before I post, well I do try my best but sometimes my comprehension isn't so great at Catspaw can vouch for.

Little Neo, who really appreciates all the postings on this thread. They have been very helpful.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 10:06 PM

spaw,
when blue clickies are given with that attitude, they are much appreciated. that's how i found out how to make a blue clickie.
neo,
i think this is a great topic for discussion. our local song circle has been going for many years, and although there are some consistent 'rules', there are also some disagreements which flare up from time to time.
what i quite enjoy about our group is that we do not have a leader. the host begins with a song, and then chooses which direction the circle will go. it is extremely rare that even a whisper will detract from anyone's contribution. the group as a whole is very supportive and encouraging to newcomers. because we meet weekly, there is a gigantic repertoire, comprised of both traditional and newly-composed folk. sometimes there will be more instruments show up than at other times, and although there can be some mighty fine jamming after the break, the instruments do not seem to detract or impose upon the singer. there are a few less considerate members than others, and we're not perfect, but those who set up high standards for the group have a group they can be proud of.
i just want to respond to a couple of things rick said at the beginning. "3. Do NOT play along unless invited to. (different situation than a jam session) "
i think our unwritten rule is 'be sure that the song is respected, and feel welcome to play along tastefully unless you are requested not to'. some songs are obviously a cappella and should be respected as such.

"4. If folks Do play along and you don't know the chords to the song just listen. (you'll win a HUGE amount of respect from the folks who respect the music)"
i think you meant 'just sing', didn't you, rick?

"7. Take the time to memorize a song so you can "live it". Some folks have a devil of a time memorizing, but others just don't appear to have tried hard enough."
i'm not sure how you can judge that. i have been accused of not trying hard enough, when really i have a devil of a time memorizing words. and being judged harshly makes it that much more difficult to give it a try without the words. sometimes i use them, sometimes i don't, but i don't see any merit in singing a song badly without the words when if one can lead it better with them. i'm working on the memory skill, and if i use the words i try to keep them on my lap just to refer to, but i really don't like the idea of someone judging this point each time someone uses lyrics. there's another thread about this, isn't there, spaw? :-) "8. Beware of getting SERIOUS FLACK for advocating #s 1 through 8."
so, did i give you flack, rick?
i did think your other points were useful!

~black walnut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From:
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 10:29 PM

I have a couple questions...

1. What is a "blue clicky thingie"?

2. Is anyone aware of singing circles in the greater Seattle area?

--js

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 12:49 AM

Hi Walnut. I'm happy for any flack anytime. I apologize for using the phrase "done to death" in regards to discussing song circle etiquette. Truth is it was a little hedge against someone saying "here are a whole bunch of blue clickys where we've talked and talked about this before." Often there's a bit of an "edge" to their "tone of writing" implying that there's no need for any new threads on the subject. Personally I feel that I WANT to know what newer catters have to say about ANY subject...and being terminally mouthy, I don't mind repeating my feelings on a subject.

Your thoughts on point 3:

I've been to song circles where some folks feel the need to play "lead" on everything. Most of the time they don't use dynamics and often play notes that are not in the chords that the song leader is using. Sorry, but this is one area that steams me (and has caused me to leave early). If you are accompanying something on the harp with a "D minor chord" and an inexperienced but enthusiastic player uses an "F"..not once, but every time, then they are showing disrespect for you. And destroying the song. Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

4: Yup, I meant "sing".

7: I think you're right about this. I'm being a bit too adament, without taking into account individual approaches. Ian Robb, and Tam Kearney, two veteran ballad singers go ballistic when folks use "The Book". Perhaps if folks copied the songs they want to sing into their "own books", it wouldn't appear as if they were picking something at random to sing. One thing for sure..this debate will never end! Truth to tell, I have a hard time memorizing songs since I stopped playing regularly in bars and always keep my own book close at hand...so I'm a fine one to talk.

Glad you didn't mention "tuning"! I'll fight to the death on that one.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: GUEST,Charlie Baum
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 01:08 AM

Regarding memorizing a song-- in order to really perform a song decently, you should go beyond merely getting the words and notes correct. You should think about issues like phrasing, tempo, timbre, expression, emotion (or the lack of it), regional stylings and appropriate ornaments. If you're barely familiar with the song, and need to rely on the Blue Book (or any other printed source), it's probably an indication that you haven't thought out your performance enough. You're still relying on your cheat-sheet for the words and/or notes. How are you going to have the space in your mind to deal with the finer points that make the song come alive? The call for memorization is really a request to think through the song. Any of us can read it off the page, after all, but if we think about the song in advance, we might actually be able to interpret it! If you're truly timid, keep your cheat-sheet available on your lap open to the proper song for quick reference--and then try not to use it. Try to go beyond what's on the page and make it your own, so I'll want to listen to your version of the song.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 08:31 AM

which brings us back to peter t.; what is your image of a song circle?

charlie, you make it sound like every week i am to come up with a polished performance. i don't think song circles are the same as performance circles where everyone happens to join in on the chorus.

here's a for instance. a few weeks ago, i heard a new song on the radio, by jenny lester. i had fortunately taped the show and was able to learn it well before my cd arrived in the mail. by song circle night i was able to sing it very well, and accompany myself very well at the piano. when i taught it, the group picked the chorus up quickly and the harmonies were grand.

that first time doing the song with the group, i needed both the words and chords in front of me! but that did not detract from the energy and beauty and love i felt for that new song. the next time we met, i was requested to do that song again.

now i have no problem leading it withoout the words in front of me. i have led it from the piano, with no instruments, and another time with my guitar partner playing for me. each change was a bit of a risk, but really nice.

if song circle had judged that my contribution was not valid until i had memorized the song, i wouldn't have gone through the process i needed to do in order to make that song my own, and that song wouldn't have developed into our group's repertoire.

i agree with you rick, about copying words into one's own book. i have some lyrics/chords on big sheets that can sit as far away as the floor and still be understood, and i have a teeny-tiny notebook which is also unobtrusive. i like to have a collection of my own, anyway.

about number 3...... if someone is playing F's with my Dm's, i don't hesitate to say, even in the middle of a song, that i'd rather do this on my own so i can hear myself think. our group doesn't seem to have a serious problem with number 3, fortunately. but i don't like it when someone else starts leading a song that another has started, whether it be the words or the accompaniment.

and hey, rick, would i argue about the need for people to be in tune? ME? after meticulously tuning 36 strings?!

(oh, btw, you should have heard me play guitar in dadgad the other night!)

~more hugs, (which is also a very important part of song circle etiquette which hasn't been mentioned yet)

black walnut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 10:27 AM

jenithea, a "blue clicky thing" is Mudcatese for the underlined words that you click and that connect you to other places (done by an HTML code). The only reason the term has not caught on worldwide is that other sites use other colours (why? and why would anyone go anywhere else, but I digress).

black walnut, I am the worst person to ask about song circles. I have only been to a couple in my life, and I hated them, and never went back. My image is of folk elites who wear medals on their chest saying things like "10,000 Irish Ballads Learned" and "Get Out of the Way While I Dazzle you with my Fiddle Playing", and setting out bear traps to catch and mock the unwary who presume to sing something they don't know all the verses to. I especially remember the fakery: the fake assumption that we were all equals, when really we were there to be an audience for the few. I hated it passionately since I hate any form of false inclusion: where you graciously let the peasants in as long as they subtley know their place. Better to overtly say: stay away from our clique, grub. At least that is honest. I would have burned the building down and shoved the instruments down their throats if I had had the chance (non-violently, of course!).

I hasten to add that these experiences were light-years away from anything I have recently come into contact with through Rick F (not song circles, just meeting folkies in Toronto, all terrific, generous, thoughtful). Just bad luck, a long time ago, elsewhere.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 11:05 AM

Finally some levity!!! Thank you Peter T! Also finally a chance to disagree with you...not about jamming someone's banjo down their throat...who hasn't wanted to do that at least five times a week?

Yes, sometimes there are groups with deadly serious ballad singers, who don't feel a song is authentic unless you cough in the same place that your informant did.

I went to a fiddlers gathering about three years ago, and took my mandolin. I was welcomed, but could sense something amiss during a couple of tunes. When there was a bit of a break, I asked (the group generally) "do you folks have a format that you like to follow when doing the tunes?" About three of the older ones jumped in sooo fast I couldn't believe it. "No, No, No! as long as THE MELODY IS PLAYED!" "We PLAY CANADIAN, YOU KNOW!!"

I'm chuckling away as I write this. The implication was that I was "improvising" (American style to them) and that's not the way the "North York Fiddle Club" did it. I guess I could have gotten hurt feelings, but I much prefer the two other alternatives...Play the MELODY, or sit out and enjoy the music.

Oh, and I forgot one thing. My friend (primarily a bluegrass fiddler) who went with me, mumbled "fuck you, assholes" and went home early.

Sorry, but it comes down to "social skills" for me. A house party, or jam session, encourages folks to simply sing and play. A song Circle or fiddlers' club may have some rules...'cause that's the way the folks who put it together WANT IT. Sure, there are sometimes pompous asses in the circle...but I guarantee you, those people are pompous asses in their everyday life as well. A few rules? Doesn't bother me in the least...and I've NEVER seen a beginner or someone with lesser skills dumped on if they respect the group's format.

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 11:38 AM

I really think the same thing takes place in any "formalized" activity, even when they're just for fun. Doesn't have to be song circles or jams....anything. There are the folks who have the sense to walk cautiously and respect the "group" and the idiots who barge into things with all the sensitivity of a charging rhino. On the other side, there are those who welcome and encourage new members and those who have no sensitivity on this side too.

So I'm on my third race crewing for an excellent sailor in the SORC. I had tread lightly and done my job well and was being ask for input on things. Felt pretty good, ya' know? The boat's owner came along for this leg and all hell broke loose. He was a lousy sailor, but he had a firm set of rules that he sailed by (explaining why he wasn't worth a shit) and began ordering Gary around and generally taking charge to the point that after about 6 hours of this shit, this nice, easy going, crew was ready to throw his ass overboard. I mean really! It was bizarre. He owned the boat. He hired Gary to race it for him and get a bunch of guys together to do the job and then he screws it up. (Steinbrenner and the Yankees)

Anyway, it happens in all sorts of fields. Folks is folks and some are jerks. try to avoid them 'cause you ain't gonna' change them!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 11:53 AM

Er, Rick, just what exactly are you finally disagreeing with me about? All sounds O.K. to me. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Bert
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 12:05 PM

A true song circle is where everyone gets a turn to sing what they want to sing. The Bucks County (PA) folk song society has a great one every month. It is well organized and everyone gets a turn. They get a big crowd so you only get to sing one song. But even big heads like me, who could sing all night, don't feel put out because the songs, the talent and the atmosphere are so good. After the break there is a jam.

Many other places are not so good. Some degenrate into just a handful of guitar hogs who don't let anyone else get a turn. I just stop going to those.

And others are even worse, they PRETEND to be a regular song circle but have unspoken rules or traditions, such as... your song has to 'Keep in the Mood'. Of course you don't find out about this 'rule' until after, when some one bitches publicly about singers who break the mood. Not everyone can pick a song on the spur of the moment that matches the mood of the preceding song and it's especially difficult if the preceding song is from a different cultural background AND you don't even know that the bloody rule exists in the first place.

It's my opinion that if you can't sing the song that you want to sing (and that you have practiced) then you are not really getting your turn. Some one else wants to enforce THEIR choice upon YOU.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 12:19 PM

when i was a newcomer to song circle, i came with a classical music degree and the ability to sightread music. both were minimally useful. i could sing along on the choruses, though. yup, i could sing. and what a joy it was to sing along wiith those other passionate voices!

i found the first few months of belonging to the circle to be a difficult learning curve, but after about a year, i began to have a few things worthy to contribute. now some songs i've written have become part of the repertoire.

i think it takes more that a couple of tries to get the feel of a group. and i think that every group is very different from the next.

peter, maybe i was just very lucky to start out in the group i did! another group may not have been so patient with me, or i with it.

~'nut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: black walnut
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 12:22 PM

p.s.

bert, i agree with you wholeheartedly!

~'nut

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 01:01 PM

Peter T

My wife wanted me to tell you that she shared your view of such places, exactly.

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From:
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 02:49 PM

Peter T, your post made me laugh out loud... I have witnessed so much of that type of snobbery, not just amongst musicians, but in all artistic pursuits and walks of life. But it is especially irritating when it comes to folk and/or blues music, which one would think need not be quite so inflexibly purist. My own sister is like that... "you didn't sing that song EXACTLY THE WAY JOAN BAEZ DOES ON HER ALBUM! Therefore it is WRONG WRONG WRONG!" Jeez! I thought the whole point of folk/blues was for each person to be free to bring a little tiny bit of her/himself to it. Also, there is a difference between being a historical ethnomusicologist trying to capture a song or musical style in its so-called "pure" state, and being an individual who just wants to sing or play that song without having to slavishly follow every detail of whatever recording is the "definitive" take.

Anyway, this rant is certainly not against any of you, but rather in response to some of my more rigidly purist acquaintances... I do think there is a place and time for both approaches -- but as a shyer and less experienced performer, I sure do appreciate the more supportive and less judgmental type of environment when I can find it.

--js

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 03:11 PM

J.S. I'd have a serious talk with with your sister if she's using Joan Baez as a song barometer for what's right and wrong!! Or just play her Joan's version of "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down". That one caused quite a few laughs...and some expletive deleteds from Levon Helm.

You're right Peter...I just don't seem to be able to disagree with you (well I guess I'm not tryin' very hard).

Well maybe about GG. I still think at times he was a WITTY ass..le. He seems to have shuffled off though.

Rick

Subject: RE: Song Circle Etiquette for Dummies
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Apr 00 - 03:21 PM

But Rick ya' gotta' admit Levon had the last laugh when he took that supporting role in that Steven Segal turkey.........Well maybe he wasn't laughing.......I know some people were though.

Actually, he's had an interesting movie career...."Right Stuff"..."Coal Miner's Daughter".........always liked him in the parts until that Segal thing. Truth told, I watch all the Segal movies for some perverse reason, kinda' like being hooked on pro-wrestling or Televangelism.........

Spaw