BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:29 PM

Bill the NIST falsified the structure of the core. I have provided both the blueprints of the core as well as pictorial proof that the core was not constructed as the NIST has said that it was.

You are using a lot of superstitious gobbldygook as a way of trying to divert attention away from the fact that the NIST has falsified information. Given that the NIST has falsified information, none of us has any reason whatever to regard them as a credible authority on this subject, and we similarly have no reason whatever to take anything you have to say seriously on this subject either.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:32 PM

And by the way, falsifying information is not an "anomaly". It's just plain old lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

"...NIST falsified the structure of the core."

Now THAT is a new point...is that your analysis/opinion/conclusion? Or is it from some expert?
If it is true, it is important and should be/have been cited and investigated by someone who knows what to do with such serious 'data'.
If it is just your personal interpretation of the blueprints + your view of how the information is relevant, I can't see why I should be alarmed, as *I* am not competent to evaluate those areas of physics and construction.

**serious accusations require serious evidence**

(clothes changed and heading out the door.)

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:23 AM

Bill, just read my posts. I've already posted the evidence, and then I even listed what evidence I provided in a subsequent post. Really, if you're going to be responding to my posts, the least you could do would be to read them.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 02:28 AM

By the way, you don't just interpret blueprints. The actual information is right there in the blueprints. It's all there for everyone to see. If the government produces a diagram that specifies a certain number of columns, and the blueprint shows a different number, it's not necessary for someone to be able to "interpret" a blueprint to know that the government is lying. If the government produces a diagram that shows an absence of crossbracing, and we can look at a photograph that shows the presence of crossbracing, we know that the government is lying. You don't need to be an expert to understand these things.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 04:15 AM

If Bill wants to continue he can but I won't bother with it. Feel free to post another hundred pieces of your valuable information here Carol but remember a lack of response on my part doesn't mean you're right or that you've won some great victory.

Hawk does have that part right.........Each side thinks the other is deluded and at this late date after so many times around the track it is ridiculous to even try to keep going.......kinda' like the old story about numbered jokes. Just yell out your number (Cover-Up 83) and we can respond with our number (Myth Debunker 69).

In the end Carol, arguing with you on this matter is like trying to sew with a broken needle.........You don't really get anywhere and there is no point to it.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:20 AM

Can't imagine why you bothered in the first place, catspaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM

"Bill, just read my posts. I've already posted the evidence..."

I gather that means that it is your conclusion that the NIST 'falsified' data and that therefore the govt. is lying about something.
Since I have said that *I* do not feel competent to make that determination, and that I see FAR too many problems with the very process of basing a conspiracy theory on data that experts should already have seen, if it were relevant, I must now agree with catspaw and decline to continue this. If YOU feel it is that clear & obvious, I suggest you badger some 'authority', or write your congressman, rather than expecting me to keep answering questions I cannot answer.

MY concerns (as should be obvious) continue to be about the very nature and process OF conspiracy theories.

I may read any future posts, but I will not debate or respond unless I see something really new.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:27 PM

No, Bill. It is not my conclusion. It is fact. Just look at the blueprints and the photographs. To conclude otherwise is magical thinking based on your superstitious belief that the government couldn't possibly be lying.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:36 PM

And I might add, photographs and blueprints are evidence. Government generated charts are not evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM

please do not distort what I have said. I have no 'superstitious belief', and I do NOT assume the govt. cannot lie...I just do not agree that it is obvious that they DID in this case. MY 'conclusion' is that 'it is not obvious'. You may call me stubborn, or dumb, or decide that I am part of the conspiracy, or that *I* am lying....it makes no difference to me.

And..." It is not my conclusion. It is fact"

it IS your 'conclusion' that is is 'fact'.

"further, deponent sayeth not!"

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:45 PM

All theories which are about any event which might have been planned and caused by more than one person ARE...by definition...conspiracy theories, Bill.


That includes the popular theory espoused by the official report on 911. It is a conspiracy theory.

Conspiracies are hatched by a great variety of people, including sometimes people IN governments and other high authority structures of all kinds. Matter of fact, they happen every day...the only question is in regards to what and by whom and for what purpose (good or evil?)?

Therefore I can say that my concerns are the same as yours, which is to say... "MY concerns (as should be obvious) continue to be about the very nature and process OF conspiracy theories."

;-)

See what I mean? Who is better equipped to maintain the coverup of a major conspiracy....someone who controls the government and mainstream media outlets? Or a few private individuals who don't control the government and mainstream media?

I would submit that the former group of people are far better equipped to conceal their conspiracies than the latter are.

It happens all the time. Governments (and specific sections IN governments...like the CIA, etc) do stuff that they keep top secret...even from practically everyone else who is IN the government. They have the power and the security arrangements to do that. They are set up to do that right from the start.

Example: The Manhattan Project - A large number of scientists and governmental people conspired secretly to create a terrible new weapon in the 1940s that could be used to blow up an entire downtown metropolitan area. They invested a vast amount of money and effort in doing it, eventually succeeded, did an above ground test of the weapon....and STILL managed to keep it all totally secret from the general public, the press, most other nations, etc. No one knew about it who wasn't supposed to know about it...or if anyone did, it certainly didn't reach the press...not till the day they dropped one of the damn things on Hiroshima and proudly uncovered their own successful conspiracy to blow a foreign city to blazes!

That's how well a government can keep secrets if they want to, Bill. It can be done.

Just a possibility...but they DO have the power to keep something enormous a secret if they want to, primarily by controlling their own personnel and the main media sources, and that's done in a variety of ways...money, influence, command structure, invoking "national security", connections, threats, direct orders to certain people in management positions to proceed as instructed. It can be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 12:47 PM

What you're doing is magicking away physical evidence, Bill. You choose to ignore real evidence in favor of fabricated props that have been created by the government. Props that run counter to the actual evidence. And you favor those fabricated props because they support what you already believe, and what you prefer to believe. But it's still just belief, Bill, which is what makes your line of thinking superstition rather than logic or reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Confere
From: Gervase
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:37 PM

Fuck me, Google makes structural engineers of us all! Impressive amount of knowledge shown here - not.
The trouble is, people want conspiracies. They're more satisfying and provide a crunchier narrratie. Me, I think Princess Di did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:44 PM

Yeah, only a structural engineer can count how many columns there are in a blueprint or a diagram and whether or not a photograph shows the presence of cross bracing. Not. The trouble is, people want to label anyone who questions their cherished beliefs about 9/11, a conspiracy theorist. That's more satisfying and it provides them an opportunity to engage in a little gratuitous abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 05:51 PM

"The trouble is, people want conspiracies. They're more satisfying and provide a crunchier narrratie."

True. And that's one of the reasons why they were so receptive to the government's officially-backed conspiracy theory about Osama Bin Laden, Al Qaeda, and 19 guys with boxcutters. ;-) It's exciting, it's crunchy, it's scary, and it features evil foreign fanatics with facial hair. What could possibly be better for a conspiracy theory than that?

Obama Bin Laden was being named already ON the very day of 911 on national television, in connection with the attack. Wow. That is FAST deduction by our brilliant news services, I must say. I wonder where they got the information?

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:07 PM

There's a book out about conspiracies in history, its author is mentioned here: 9/11- Science and Conspiracy

And there's a fresh book on the market: Voodoo Histories

I wonder if conspiracy theories appeal because it feeds the desire that large scale happenings have a purpose behind them.

Where I work we have a weekly engineers' meeting and we end it with the CTOTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:10 PM

Excellent post, LH. And the other thing that makes the official narrative so enticing is that it provides such handy scapegoats, and it's so much less disturbing to be able to blame it on people who are culturally and physically so different from them.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:22 PM

"I wonder if conspiracy theories appeal because it feeds the desire that large scale happenings have a purpose behind them."

Certainly. And there was undoubtedly a purpose behind the 911 attacks...whoever the conspirators were. What that purpose was is subject to multiple interpretations...depending on which conspiracy theory is the one closest to the truth.

Now, you notice that no one has proposed any conspiracy theory for the Chilean earthquake? Of course not. No one thinks there could have been any human purpose behind it....just an act of Nature, that's all. Same for the Haitian earthquake.

911, however, was not an act of Nature. It was planned and carried out by human beings. Therefore it most definitely had to be a conspiracy,(it didn't just happen spontaneously for no reason) and any theory about it has to be a conspiracy theory. The 911 Commission presented us with their conspiracy theory...but its supporters claim to be above such foolishness as believing in conspiracy theories.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:36 PM

The only people who are conspiracy theorists in this thread are the ones who think they know what happened on 9/11. That includes the ones who believe the conspiracy theory promoted by the government. Those of us who say we don't know what happened, and would like a proper investigation, are the opposite of conspiracy theorists. We're the ones who want science to answer the questions for us, rather than settling for whatever simplistic and glib "explanations" the government deigns to hand us.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:40 PM

I think I know what happened - two planes flew into two towers, a third into the Pentagon, and a fourth into a field. It happened in 2001.
end of story.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 06:51 PM

That's certainly part of the story, Joe. But it's hardly enough information to justify the kind of response our government has had to what happened on that day (or to rule out a different kind of response).

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: michaelr
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 07:00 PM

Joe just handily illustrated "simplistic and glib".

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 07:21 PM

A two hour video, two years old now....giving some more facts, and pointing out how important it is to ensure the truth is told, because two wars have started because of this happening, with over 1,000,000 people killed.

Richard Gage, the man who started 9/11 Architects and Engineers for Truth:

9/11 Blueprint for Truth

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 09:27 PM

On Tuesday 9/11 two jets launched a deadly attack on the Presidential Palace of La Moneda in the heart of Santiago, Chile. A military coup led by Augusto Pinochet ousted the presidency of Salvador Allende, the world's first democratically-elected Marxist head of state.

That was in 1973.

In the following days of this American backed coup over 3000 people were executed or simply disappeared off the face of the earth.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:25 PM

Hmmm.

Yes, indeed. You don't hear much about it these days, do you?

A bunch of large American corporations got their way when Allende's government was brought down in Chile.

A bunch of large British and American corporations got their way when Mossadegh's democratically elected government was brought down in Iran by a CIA-backed coup and replaced with rule by the Shah. You don't hear much about that these days either, but the Iranians have not forgotten.

I know a Chilean woman who fled Chile when the Pinochet dictatorship took over and started "disappearing" (murdering) a lot of people. She has not forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 10:43 PM

People need to start waking up.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Mar 10 - 11:35 PM

A bit of thread drift (but not entirely, since it's all a part of the same pattern), here's some perspective from Naomi Klein on the subject of what happened in Chile...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi-klein/chiles-socialist-rebar_b_484143.html

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:09 AM

I'm sorry, but I don't see any particular skulduggery or deeply hidden secrets in the World Trade Center destruction. I've found that the obvious explanation is usually the best one. I find the fantastic theories about as credible as those of the "birthers" who think Obama was born in outer space, or whatever.
I'm sure the terrorists who commandeered the aircraft on 9/11 were sincere about their cause, and it seems quite clear that they were working for a terrorist organization headed by the wealthy Osama bin Ladin; and I think their American opponents were likewise sincere.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:14 AM

But Joe, the government's version of events is one of the more "fantastic" ones. Maybe you can explain to me how the towers fell, if you feel you've been given an "obvious" explanation.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:57 AM

Who would dream that people would hijack two airplanes and fly them into two of the tallest buildings in the world? I imagine the architects and engineers didn't foresee this possibility, and didn't design the buildings to be impervious to airplane crashes. To this day, I find it hard to believe it all happened.
I wasn't particularly impressed by the architecture of the World Trade Center. It seemed like a cheaply-made behemoth, not an architectural masterpiece like the nearby Woolworth Tower, or the Empire State Building or the Chrysler Building.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:01 AM

Actually I have seen the designer of the building say that he planned precisely for that very possiblity, Joe. That was a big part what he was thinking about when he was designing the building. This was filmed before 9/11. He died in the event on 9/11.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:02 AM

But please explain how it was possible for the buildings to fall. What was the mechanics and the physics of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 02:55 AM

"This documentary was made in 1983 by The Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. It contains footage of when the twin towers were constructed from the mid 60's through early 70's..."

Youtube - 1983 documentary on the building of the Towers

Part 2

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:02 AM

Similar buildings and stories to the Twin Towers - They did NOT collapse - Youtube

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:20 AM

I realise that we may never know the truth, but I admire these people for trying their best to get their questions answered.

So, what if.....?

What if the Bush government *knew* that the attacks were going to happen?

What if they had prior knowledge of it, but chose to keep that to themselves, for their own reasons?

What if it was then secretly organised for both towers to be set up with explosives?

What if, those explosives lay dormant until a very short while AFTER the planes had hit?

And what if, those who *may have* planned it, watched it happening, knowing that all the legal evidence that lay in that building, about Wall Street wrong doings and more which they may have wanted destroyed, disappeared in an instant?

What if they then organised for as much evidence as possible to be removed from the scene and destroyed, going against all normal investigatory procedures?


I dunno. I just ask questions, try to always look at things in a different way....



And what if, this whole prior knowledge about the attack was the reason that George Bush allowed all members of the Bin Laden family (his family's friends) to get out of the USA, before the shit hit the fan?

If they had left *before* 9/11 it would have added to the prior knowlege theory...but did letting them leave at all mean that someone, somewhere already knew that Bin Laden had ordered these attacks?

After all, hadn't they foiled a World Centre attack once before, and with prior knowledge?

1993 WTC Bombing - Wiki


"FBI involvement
In the course of the trial it was revealed that the FBI had an informant, a former Egyptian army officer named Emad Salem. Salem claims to have informed the FBI of the plot to bomb the towers as early as February 6, 1992. Salem's role as informant allowed the FBI to quickly pinpoint the conspirators out of hundreds of possible suspects.

Salem, initially believing that this was to be a sting operation, claimed that the FBI's original plan was for Salem to supply the conspirators with a harmless powder instead of actual explosive to build their bomb, but that the FBI chose to use him for other purposes instead. He secretly recorded hundreds of hours of telephone conversations with his FBI handlers.[23]"

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 11:42 AM

easy for you to say...Fagelelllok

keep hammering away at them, ladies

Splitting the Sky's trial starts March 08th in Calgary, he tried to arrest GW Bush last March 17 (for war crimes)... more later

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 12:37 PM

"So, what if.....?"

What if there were WAY too many 'what ifs' used instead of facts?

Are rhetorical questions muddling our thinking processes? ;<)

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:23 PM

Just to send the wingnut portion of this thread further down the rabbit hole:

planehuggers

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 01:46 PM

What if there were WAY too many 'what ifs' used instead of facts?

Well, duh. That's what some of us keep saying, over and over and over, to the people with closed ears and minds. The way to correct this situation is to conduct a rigorous, proper scientific investigation to answer the "what ifs" in a way that can stand up to a rigorous peer review process. Anyone who objects to doing this either has something to hide, or they just don't want anyone to shatter their cherished beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:03 PM

"planehuggers".... sheesh! Now I have to add THAT to my 'treehugger' persona....


"... conduct a rigorous, proper scientific investigation .."

...and I assume that you will be able to identify one by how well it agrees with your own analysis? I have this suspicion that any new investigation that agrees with the original one will be summarily dismissed as part of the conspiracy. Who me? cynical?......ummm....yeah, I guess so...

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:08 PM

No, I'll be satisfied with any results that can withstand a rigorous peer review process. You're projecting your own closed mindedness onto me in your little comment there, Bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:40 PM

This one's very funny...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDHN1gBkx0M&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:40 PM

Many 'peers' already have reviewed the process and the data and agree with most of the salient conclusions of the 9/11 Commission....you just don't agree with them.

As to my 'close-minded' comment, that is simply a smart-alec direct reference to my basic view that most of you who are still questioning this, years after all the explanations and technical answers and photos and measurements and refutations of conspiracy theories, will NEVER be convinced. That site just noted, about 'planehuggers', actually claims that there never WERE any airliners that his any buildings, and that passenger list were fabricated, and that video of the crashes was modern 'digital fakes'..... (I just looked again to be sure it really said stuff like that)....and the 'explanations' of how all this fakery was done simply beggars belief!

All it shows in that the human mind is ABLE to look at evidence and flatly deny and ignore it..(like photos OF 757 debris on the Pentagon lawn).

Yeah, I am being cynical now, because as I said, I will no longer patiently explain what experts have found and why I accept the 'silly notion' that 19 young men managed to exploit system flaws and do all that damage.

I keep reading out of curiosity...................

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 03:53 PM

Ok, Bill. Show me, first of all, the scientific investigations that have been conducted into the collapse of the twin towers. I want to see the results of the testing for outside accelerants, and the testing of the metal of the core at the points where the failures took place. I want to see the results of the tests done on the metal in the areas where it was supposed to have been weakened by high temperatures. I want to see what the maximum temperature was that was reached in that metal. I want to see all of the research that was done to justify the government's various theories about what happened.

And then, I want you to show me the peer reviews of this work.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 04:46 PM

I do not KNOW whether the precise tests you say YOU need have been done. I said 'peers' have reviewed the process. Perhaps their review concluded that some of those tests were not required.... or perhaps not even possible.
(I don't KNOW how possible it was then, or would be now, to test significant portions of debris for 'accelerants'! At time, I'm sure no one thought that 'testing for accelerants' would be require, after watching planes crash into buildings. Maybe all they would find is residues of jet fuel?) I also don't know why you want ME to know whether such tests were done. If they were not done, and you are so sure they should be, you should ask those who are in a position to know or to order such tests...or who could explain whether such tests are possible.
   What I do know is that much research and analysis HAS been done, and that I am reasonably satisfied with coherent, documented answers. I am willing to LOOK at any new research that goes beyond just denying 'official' reports. I cannot personally do such research....

What I, as I have said, do have some training in, is comparing various arguments and rhetoric... and I see many basic flaws in the general construction **OF** the conspiracy theories. That means, even IF they were correct, they are inconsistent and full of bad reasoning.

IT IS NOT MY JOB to 'prove' anything to you.... it is for doubters to find evidence (evidence...not suspicions) to support THEIR ideas - or to find someone who can.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

Which peers have reviewed the process and accepted it, Bill? And how about the peers who have reviewed it an have not accepted it? You don't seem to think that those peers need to be listened to (no doubt because their conclusions don't agree with your own analysis).


You haven't watched the videos in the opening post of this thread, have you, Bill? The guy in this video here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZFDsAH-CLA&feature=related

...is a firefighter. In this video, he reads from the manual with the national standards for conducting investigations into events like this that involve fire. He shows in what ways the government violated the guidelines. He also says that it is considered the national standard to test for exotic accelerants, especially in the presence of melted steel or concrete.

You seem to endorse the "because I told you so" school of scientific inquiry, Bill. I wonder if you would be so quick to accept what the Bush administration would have to say if the subject being considered was global warming or creationism. And if you wouldn't, that shows that you are applying a different set of standards to the 9/11 issue than you are to other issues. Which shows that the only factors that determine which government explanations you are willing to accept and which ones you aren't is whether or not they agree with your own analysis.

The fact is, however, that the process the government has employed to provide their conclusions has not withstood a vigorous peer review process. The main critique of many scientists, investigators, engineers, and architects is that the government's investigation is far too incomplete to be able to form any conclusions about what happened on 9/11. Some of these experts even served on the 9/11 commission. But these people are of no consequence to you because what they're saying doesn't agree with your own analysis. When peers raise these kinds of questions about an investigation, the way to put them to rest is to conduct whatever investigations and tests are needed to answer the questions they raise. In the absence of such further inquiry, the results continue to be inconclusive, and no one can reasonably draw any conclusions about what happened. In the absence of this further investigation, all you have to go on is faith and belief. Which is all you have to go on, Bill. You are going entirely on belief, because you simply don't have enough facts to form a conclusion. Which means that it is you who are representing the tin foil hat brigade in this particular discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:01 PM

That is exactly what I was telling Bill about his faith-based form of "rationality" for years, Carol, but I got sick of arguing with him about it. I can't be bothered any more. It wastes my time and energy for nothing. It would't make any difference anyway, because even if I got Bill to change his mind.....then what? Would the government reopen the investigation because I changed BillD's mind? ;-) I don't think so.

But I'm certainly enjoying reading what you have to say to him.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:13 PM

What chance to you think there is that he would accept the results of an investigation conducted in a similar manner to the government's 9/11 investigation, if the subject was paranormal activity, eh, LH? I'm guessing not much.

Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Mar 10 - 06:23 PM

Zilch! That would be contrary to his faith. ;-)

Oh, by the way...

100!!!

Where is my free Hillary Clinton inflatable doll?