BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:41 PM

It is of course why the concept of a single payer tax funded system is vital - in a civilised society.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 06:02 PM

So why is it ok to force everyone to pay for other people's emergency room visits, but it's not ok to require them to be insured?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 06:22 PM

And therein, as I see it, lies the big clanker in the thinking of many regarding this health care bill.

There are people around—and more than we like to think about—who live in their cars or in cardboard cartons and who don't know where their next meal is coming from. How in blazes are they supposed to be able to afford insurance premiums!?? Or pay a fine if they can't ante up the premiums?

I sometimes think that national politicians leave their brains in a bottom desk drawer when they head for Washington, D. C. If even Taiwan has a universal, publicly funded health care system, what the hell is the matter with the United States, other than rampant corporate greed and chronic stupidity?

A beacon to the rest of the world? I think not!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 08:31 PM

It's the kind of beacon to the world that Imperial Rome was in its latter stages of dissolution. You can smell the stench from a long way off.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 09:37 PM

I know you are a history buff, LH, so here is a question for you: What were the signs that Rome was on the decline? I am serious.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:05 AM

Well, there were many signs of the coming decline. Rather than relist a ton of history and do it very sketchily, which will no doubt irritate a number of pedantic types here, why not just list a series of specific problems that arose in very brief form?

- increasing political corruption at every level

- increasing power and wealth in the hands of an elite few

- expansion of the empire in all directions to the point where it simply became too large and unwieldy to manage itself efficiently

- corruption of popular entertainment. A public once satisfied by watching plays and chariot races became a public that wanted to be entertained by watching horribly bloody gladiatorial combats, people being torn apart by wild animals, etc.

- increasing corruption of private life among the wealthy classes, including some really bizarre sexual practices, eating and drinking so much as to induce vomiting, then eating more, etc...

- bottling wine in lead-lined bottles which eventually caused lead poisoning and progressive insanity to occur in a good many people, specially the wealthiest people, I would think.

- military committments that were so enormous that it began to eat up the wealth of that society in ways which were unrecoverable

- dilution of the value of Roman currency

- depletion of local resources, which required further conquering of outlying resource-rich areas, which required further spending on military forces, which required maintaining longer lines of communication and making more enemies....

Basically what killed Rome was what has killed virtually all huge, aggresive imperial empires who became number 1 in the world of their day. They simply took it too far. They conquered too much. They invaded too many places. They became fiscally irresponsible. They became morally irresponsible. Their government became autocratic and utterly corrupt at the highest levels. They lost touch with the aspirations of the common people and provided no real moral leadership. They became self-indulgent and self-absorbed to a degree where they lost touch with reality. And then they became undisciplined, unrealistic, and weak. They became a sick society that no longer had any real ideals, where nothing counted anymore but "winning"...and winning simply meant: being in power and being very, very rich.

Such empires always fall. The only question is when. And how. And how fast.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:41 AM

There are people around—and more than we like to think about—who live in their cars or in cardboard cartons and who don't know where their next meal is coming from. How in blazes are they supposed to be able to afford insurance premiums!?? Or pay a fine if they can't ante up the premiums?

Don, just think about that one for a minute. I know if you do you can come up with the answer.


(Hint: those people are already eligible for FREE medical care, for which they don't have to pay one red cent. It's called Medicaid.)

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:55 AM

So, Carol, these folks are exempt? Where does the law say that?

Remember: cutbacks in spending for Medicaid, which, for the most part, are state run and state financed programs.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 02:47 AM

This bill actually increases the number of people who will be eligible for Medicaid.

And the part of the bill that exempts the kinds of people you describe is the "hardship exemption" part of the bill. It appears that you don't know anywhere near as much about the bill as you seem to think you do.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:11 AM

Lead poisoning in the wine, and the insanity that followed, points to the growing public awareness that American decline really started with the election of Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 12:46 PM

Yes, it did. Reagan deregulated the financial system in the most blatant grab to make the rich richer that has occurred in our lifetimes. The result was a "boom" period in the 80s (caused by the creation of simply vast amounts of fictional money out of thin air), followed by a "bust" period later as the resultant pyramid scheme Reagan had made possible began to collapse in on itself, as such schemes always do.

A deregulated financial system causes repeated boom and bust cycles. The overall effect of such cycles is normally to devastate the financial position of the ordinary public (particularly the middle class) when the bust hits, while making a few powerful players at the top incredibly rich, because they run around buying up all the devalued real assets (such as homes and businesses) after the "bust" hits...then they make big money later selling those same real assets during the next "boom" phase.

It's like a casino. A very few people win big. Almost everybody loses. The main difference from the casino, though, is that unlike at the casion it's determined well in advance who the few winners will be in the big phony money game...it will be they who created all the fictional money out of thin air (by making loans) and who injected it into the economy.

And who is that? The biggest banks and financial lending institutions. If the game gets so far out of reality that even they are damaged by it.........the government bails them out! (and the general public eventually pays the bill)

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 02:52 PM

Carol, I'm in favor of the passage of this bill, even as spavined as it is.

And I know the bill pretty well, having followed it from its inception. I don't see the necessity of your hostility toward me.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM

Just making an observation, Don. You didn't know about the hardship exemption, so you can't be all that familiar with it. That's a very important part of the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 05:08 PM

Carol, I did know about the hardship exemption, but I've never heard a satisfactory explanation of where it kicks in and how it works. Perhaps in an effort at emphasis, I overstated the situation.

But let's bring it home. As I understand it, you and Jack both feel you are in need of health care that you can't afford (you've mentioned the onset of cataracts—something that, according to my ophthalmologist, I will have to be dealing with soon). But presumably, you have enough income that you don't qualify for Medicaid, otherwise, you'd go ahead and get the care you need.

Let me ask this (you don't need to answer me, because it's none of my business):    will passing a law that requires you and Jack to buy health insurance really enable you to do so? Even with the tentatively promised subsidies?

If so, then good.

But I see this business of mandating that everyone must have insurance, whether they can afford it or not, is primarily a sop to the insurance companies, who have been ripping people off for years and have apparently purchased enough politicians to make sure they can continue to do so.

Nevertheless, as I said, I hope this bill gets passed. It's better than nothing, and at least it's a baby step in the right direction.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 06:12 PM

Don, I'm not happy with the way the bill is structured. I would prefer single payer not for profit. But imagine what it's like for people in their 50s who don't have insurance, and don't have enough money to be able to pay for very much medical care out of pocket. If you're in that situation, you grasp at any straw that is in reach. We make too much money for Medicaid. We expect to be in the income bracket that would make us eligible for a subsidy. We own a small business, so we will be eligible for tax breaks for providing our employees (us) with health insurance. I heard yesterday that the new health care market in which people like us will be able to buy insurance at competitive prices is supposed to kick in quickly, which could make insurance more affordable for us. It is our hope that with that combination of factors, we will be in better shape than we are in now. If the bill doesn't pass, we are still royally fucked with no hope for any improvement until we reach the age of 65 (if we live that long, which, without access to health care, is debatable). That means waiting almost 12 years for me, and almost 15 years for JtS.

Put yourself in our shoes and ask yourself which state of affairs you would prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 06:44 PM

They've approved debate on the bill, and they're beginning debate now. I'm watching it on C-Span. While I find all of the bloviating beyond tedious, I'm on the edge of my seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:05 PM

CarolC:
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:08 PM

"People who don't buy health insurance don't get jailed! They get fined. Good grief! "

GfS: Well that's a relief!!

So much for freedom!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:15 PM

Which state of affairs are your referring to? I've already said--repeatedly--that I hope the bill passes.

I've been checking into C-Span off and on this afternoon. As they say, like watching sausage being made. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:52 PM

Looks as if the Senate bill will pass the House with a dozen votes to spare, along with some amendments which a majority of the Senate has already agreed to accept.

It's not over yet but it seems like within a week they'll be no more pissing and moaning about the public's right to basic affordable health care.

And I look forward to the Republicans running on a platform next November to repeal healthcare. I don't think there will be enough sore losers to shift the Republicans to majority status in either the House or Senate.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 07:54 PM

I just went thru having to buy a new health insurance policy and it was complete Hell!!!

Even though I am a non smoker, weigh on 170 pounds, have good colestoral numbers and am healthy I had to sweat out how I would be "graded" by the insurance company...

Luckily I came thru as a Level A but if I had reported that I was injured a couple years back by a massauge theapist it would have been a B rating which would hacve upped the premium by $400 a month... And that was for an injury... Now if I had told the insurance company that I had mono some 40 years ago that would have dropped my to a level C and I would have been priced completely out of the health insurance market...

So ya' gotta just lie to them about stupid shit that has nothin' to do with yer state of health... That is a messed up deal...

So, hey, I lied to them... I didn't tell them I had been injured or that I had mono 40 years ago... It was either that or have no insurance but thinkin' about it...

...heck, maybe I don't have any insurance anyway if they can drop me if I get, ahhhh, sick???

Man, I have MSNBC on and I am prayin' and hopin' that the Dems can pull off this thing 'cause this is real life stuff fir alot of us...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Royston
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 08:44 PM

GfS:"GfS: Well that's a relief!!

So much for freedom!

Compared to Bobert's experience of nearly being priced out of health provision.

God Bless GfS's America. The freedom to watch your neighbour die in the gutter. There's progress for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Royston
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 08:50 PM

pdq: "If the Feds can order you to buy an insurance plan and put you in jail if you don't comply, we can no longer count on the Constitution for protecrtion from tyrants. The great experiment in freedom, the United States, is gone, perhaps forever."

If you lot would just wake up, stop being so selfish and show some humanity, you would call universal healthcare a "tax" - you would pay it, like other taxes, and then maybe the rest of the world would despise you just a little bit less than at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Royston
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 08:52 PM

Little Hawk is spot on. The fall of Rome all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:26 PM

They (American conservatives) are so terrified of "socialism" (what they imagine when they hear that word) that they can be fooled into living under the grossest oppression and want, Royston. It isn't that they are particularly selfish people...most of them are not, except for the few very rich at the top. Most of them are as nice as people anywhere else and are good neighbours if you get to know them. It is just that they have been fooled all their lives by a few scare words that they don't understand.

To be called a "socialist" in much of the USA is about the same as being called a rapist, a pedophile, a Satanist, a murderer or a Stalinist in most places.

They have no conception of socialism as a democratic principle of a democratic society. In Canada we have a major political party that has always proudly labelled itself as socialist, and that does not scare the majority of people in this country at all. It is to that party and its most courageous leader, Tommy Douglas, that we owe our universal health coverage. Without him, we might never have got it, and certainly not as soon as we did.

When you can successfully convince a public that socialism is inherently evil and inherently opposed to both democracy and human rights, well...you could probably convince them of just about anything. It's stark ignorance, maintained by a constant flow of inflammatory propaganda, and where does that propaganda come from? It comes from a consortium of wealthy corporations, banks, and monopolistic lending institutions who care not one bit for the health or future of ordinary Americans...only for their own balance sheet at the end of each fiscal year. They pretend to be friends of small scale capitalism (local businesses), but they destroy small scale capitalism relentlessly and replace it with huge corporate monopolies. They are slaveoweners, and they do everything in their power to keep all the "slaves" thinking that they are free.

How is it done? Mostly through a flood of misleading TV advertising and programming, false feelgood images of a vanished small town American way of life that THEY destroyed and replaced with strip malls, and a few rabid political propaganda mouthpieces like Glenn Beck on radio talk shows and in advertising.

The foxes are running the henhouse, you see...but the hens think they are free!

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 11:19 PM

Woo Hoo! The House has approved the Senate bill. I hope the reconciliation passes, but even if it doesn't at least we have something!

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Neil D
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 12:45 AM

I'm glad it passed. It would have been disaster if it hadn't. I'm not responding with a big hurrah so much as a quiet sigh of relief. I hope that it really is the first step toward a much improved health care system, with signifigant tweaks yet to come. Now lets move on with jobs creation, war extrication, finance reform and jobs creation. I'd leave Cap and Trade for after the mid-terms, give everyone time to recuperate from the health care wars.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 01:26 AM

The Senate still has to vote on the reconciliation, though. Then we can move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:01 AM

There's lots more to do. Moving on makes sense to me.

And let the Republicans try to run on repealing health care next November.

With over 200 Republican amendments accepted into the health care bill, one would think that some Republicans would have supported final passage. But one would be wrong!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:47 AM

Whew!!!

Slim majority but it got done...

As for conservatives being scared of socialism, LH??? Yeah, okay, pure conservatives might be but pure conservatives are scarce these days and have been replaced by a very radical group of capitalists who love socialism as long as it favors them... They really have no idea what conservatism is...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 12:10 PM

What I meant, Bobert, is that "socialism" is a word that is cynically used in the USA to scare people...and they are scared because they don't understand what socialism is in the first place.

They are apparently blind to the fact that without socialist institutions in place already they wouldn't have a police force, a fire department, an armed forces, public libraries, courts, public parks, public hospitals, public transit, and publicly funded facilities of all kinds....not to mention, a government!

They have no idea what they're hearing about when they hear the word "socialism", and they are being deliberately misled by those who use that word to scare people into opposing any progressive legislation.

I know of no other country where the word "socialism" is commonly used to terrorize ill-informed people into opposing their own interests. Only in the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: DougR
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 07:33 PM

Carol C: Your March 10 post ...change the word from "most" to "some" and I will agree with you (Republican ideas included in the Bill).

L.H.: Dennis got a ride in Airforce One, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 08:13 PM

Little Hawk is essentially right about the effect that the word "socialism" has on a lot of Americans. This was underscored during World War II, and the Cold War in particular. Anything that smacked of the Soviet Union (the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which was socialist in name only), or World War II (the Nazi—National Socialist Party—which had damned little to do with socialism, really; it was an amalgam of capitalism and racism run amok) was to be despised as a patriotic duty.

Right-wingers have used that spurious association ever since to brand anything they don't like that uses tax money (except bailing out capitalists who get themselves in dire straits through rampant greed and mismanagement) as, **OH, HORRORS**, "SOCIALISM."

No matter how well whatever it is has worked in other countries.

But I think the scam may be on the wane. A lot of people these days (such as myself) never miss an opportunity to point out to people who react negatively to the word, that without a measure of socialism, they would have to go through the process of giving their insurance information to the 911 operator if they call because their house is on fire, someone has broken a basement window and is rummaging around down there, or because someone in the house is having a heart attack.

"What? You have no insurance? Well, how do you plan to pay for this then?" as your house is going up in flames.

And there would be no streets, highways, and bridges they could drive on where they would not have to pay a toll, no public parks, no public libraries, no public schools. . . .

You get the idea.

When I run through this litany, they often sit there with their mouths open and their eyes wide, then say, "You mean—?" And then we have a pretty interesting discussion.

What usually cinches the idea is when I point out that when they come to retire—or if they are already retired—without a hint of socialism, there would be no Social Security checks—and no Medicare. "But .  . . but. .  . ."   They hadn't though of that! But it brings it down to a personal level, and that puts a whole new light on the matter

I'm not the only one. The idea is gradually getting around.

Spread the word!!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 10:42 PM

And what if he did, Doug? Are you suggesting that they threatened to drop him out without a parachute unless he voted "yes"? ;-)

****

Right on, Don. Spread the word! The only reason many Americans are scared of "socialism" is that they have not a clue what the word actually means, and not a clue that an enormous number of perfectly normal things they take for granted and depend upon every day of their lives ARE socialist institutions.

Also...they apparently don't have a clue that "socialism" does NOT mean making EVERYTHING in the whole society socialist!!!!!!!!!!!! I have always believed in both socialism AND capitalism, and I'm happy to live in a modern democratic society that intelligently combines both of them in many good ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:04 PM

The reason Americans don't know what the word "socialism" means is because they refuse to invest in education.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 11:14 PM

And they let someone else do their thinking for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 12:58 AM

Why don't you list all of the ones the Republicans offered, DougR, and then tell us how many weren't included in the bill? Keep in mind that there are at least 200 amendments that the Republicans added to the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: DougR
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:05 AM

Well, gee, Carol, I didn't know Republicans offered anybody anything. Enlighten us will you?

L.H.: It never crossed my mind that Obama would threaten Dennis in such a way. Obama is so persuasive he probably could get Dennis to go along if he offered him an ice cream cone on Airforce One.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:11 AM

Enlighten you on what, DougR? The Republican amendments there were included in the bill?

How about you just tell us which Republican ideas weren't included in the bill, and I'll find out for you whether or not you are right. 200 is a lot of amendments to list in a thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 01:27 AM

Doug - Dennis has himself explained why he finally decided, reluctantly, to vote for the bill, and his explanation makes sense. In that respect it's quite similar to what Michael Moore has said about it. Just look it up. You can find what out both of them have said about it without much difficulty.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 08:26 AM

Still, the thing that would have helped the American economy the most would have been single payer. American manufacturers still have to furnish health care to their employees, and compete against companies around the world who do not.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:45 AM

""There are people around—and more than we like to think about—who live in their cars or in cardboard cartons and who don't know where their next meal is coming from. How in blazes are they supposed to be able to afford insurance premiums!?? Or pay a fine if they can't ante up the premiums?""

I wouldn't have expected you Don, of all people, to have read that post without noticing the phrase "thus why hardship exemptions have been built in the legislation.".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 07:12 PM

Republican involvement in this Law can be summarized easily.

Jim DeMint said Health Care could be Obama's Waterloo. That became their goal and their strategy.

Olympia Snow and others pretended to work with the Democrats so that they could stall it them later bragged about it.

Obama said to the Republicans that he would listen to Republican ideas.

Any decent idea did come up with has been included in the Bill.

McConnell and Boehner have been telling the same lies for a year so people like Doug, who give extraordinary credence to Republican lies have begun to internalize the lies and share them with us.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:37 PM

Olympia Snow helped get the bill out of committee. I don't know why you'd pick on her, Jack. The Republican ideas that would have helped the public were not included in the bill. Tort reform was probably the most important of these.

                  And I'm a Green, not a Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 09:46 PM

Can you name any besides tort reform, Riginslinger?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 10:49 PM

Don T., I've already explained that.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Mar 10 - 11:55 PM

"Can you name any besides tort reform, Riginslinger?"

         Yes. Something needed to be done to help American manufacturers. They are paying for employee's health care, in Sweden the government pays. In view of the reality that insurance premiums are sure to go up now, be prepared to see a whole lot of new Volvo motor graders.

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 12:48 AM

Which Republicans suggested that idea, Riginslinger, and when did they do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 07:58 AM

Teddy Roosevelt, 1910.

       Seriously, though, I'm one of those people who thought something needed to be done about health care, and seriously think that what was done in this bill was worse than nothing.

       The most important thing that needed to be done, in my opinion, was to get it off the backs of the employers--that didn't happen. The second most important thing was to get the cost down--that didn't happen either. Tort reform would have gone a long way to getting the cost down by getting the profession on the road to putting an end to "defensive medicine."

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 08:07 AM

Actually, tort reform was on the table and had the Repubs decided to participate in the legislative process with a few votes it could have been part of the final bill...

As for "socialism"... Yeah, if may be damaged goods but it's because the progressives aren't the ones with the money to buy mass media PR campaigns to undo what the corportists have no problem affording... But that can be said of juswt about every progressive idea... Hard to compete without the cash to frame yer ideas...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Dennis Kucinich Sells Out?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 09:11 AM

Well, I don't have anything against Socialism, it's the health care bill I'm worried about.