A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 02:02 PM

***Oh the irony. The above was me.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 03:32 PM

No worries, Phil, we all do it!

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 16 Sep 23 - 11:04 PM

>>Neither did the sailors on the Gazela call them "shanties." Their 2400+ year histories and traditions are not about African-Americans, cotton screwers or the Gulf of Mexico.<<

What do "them" and "their" refer to?

>>Reidler<< [sic]

Could you please explain to everyone why you have been pounding on this poor undergraduate thesis-writer (Riedler) for several years, ever since you got a bug in your bonnet about people not discussing Catholic Romance language-speaking flautists? The frequency with which you mention her name seems only slightly behind your mention of "TikTok," "Wellerman," and "Naval Science." Yet, I'm confident that most if not all people here have no idea whom you're referring to when you do so.

Was some secondary-sourced background write-up narrative of the history of chanties in the bachelor's thesis about "The Influence of Sea Shanties on Classical Music," by this young woman from Singapore who is a scholar of opera, the primary thing you chance-encountered when you started this journey, and you have been reacting to it ever since? Did you two have an exchange on Reddit or something where she said, "OK, Boomer"? Did you tell her she should change her major to a HARD STEM field?

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 18 Sep 23 - 06:08 AM

Gibb,
>>Reidler<< [sic] I'm always getting that backwards. All apologies and it will happen again. I promise.

Neither seen nor heard one bad word about the author as a person. Nothing at all to match the tone of your post. An all around sterling individual… or maybe the Antichrist, for all I know… or care.

I've heard parts of two shanty lectures. Standard issue, no opera, nothing special. I knew the Maritime Work Song thread would do Wagner when his time came. Little surprise then Piratical Debauchery, Homesick Sailors, and Nautical Rhythms: The Influence of Sea Shanties on Classical Music should turn up on its own merit. What else is there on that subject?

...people not discussing Catholic Romance language-speaking flautists?… you lost me completely there.

What do "them" and "their" refer to?
Too much thread drift for poor old Lloyd. See here: New Chanties Documentary

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 05 Sep 23 - 12:02 PM

I cannot locate the Wyndham-Read version of 'Black Ball Line' with which Gibb reopened this thread is so weird that I'm inclined to agree it might have been mis-transcribed.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 05 Sep 23 - 12:07 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9vS36h8oxQ
WEIRD? I rather like it

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 05:06 AM

What positives are there in destroying Lloyds reputation as a scholar?,

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 05:39 AM

I consider it negative to continually find the negatives in Lloyds scholarship, to harp on about his tampering, Sharp and more so Baring Gould did a lot of tampering with texts. but without Sharp in particular we would not have such a big REPERTOIRE

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 10:50 AM

As lloyds reputation as a scholar is diminshed, so is his overall reputation.
Sharp altered manuscripts, at the time it was felt necessary to do so to get them published, the result was a positive, the songs became printed circulated in schools the repertoire was expanded and people sang the songs
Lloyd altered songs expanded the repertoire and got revival singers to sing songs that would not have otherwise been song.
ContinualLy harping on his weaknesses as a scholar is highlighting, his weaknesses not talking about his positives, that is FACT.

Steve says '''There are plenty of people who would rather have the truth.
is this a suggestion that i do not want the truth,
I am aware of Lloyds scholastic weakness, and as you suggest a lot of other people are too.
Brian, I have at no point mentioned Marson.
I believe criticisms of Sharp and Baring Gould and Lloyd should be seen in the context of their times, and in a holistic manner.
What I see on this forum and so far on Face book on this subject is mainly negative about Lloyd.
The pursuit of scholastic honesty,without holistic perspective is a negative force.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 12:27 PM

IMO llOYD did very little DAMAGE compared to folk song collector Peter kennedy, a man who pissed off some of his sources and who dubbed himself on to field recordings without permission, and who thought he owned the traditional songs.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 12:52 PM

In what reality would every reader equally value every author for all the same reasons?

You may mark me down as a negative. It is a fact of maths I place zero value on folk club revival chantey authenticity. For the student of naval science, it's a clunker. A Regency dance group would be time better spent, but not by much.

If one highly values folk club revival shanties, the results will be different of course.

And Whall has an authorship & original copyright claim in his foreword. He did in fact own the songs that followed as far as the publishing industry goes. Typical for the medium.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Sep 23 - 01:47 PM

Baloney,Lloyd and Kennedy were very different ,i knew them both, Lloyd s tampering and not claiming authorships= is evidence.
Kennedy was in it for the money,AND THREATENED TO SUE PEOPLE FREQUENTLY

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 07 Sep 23 - 07:48 AM

Without Lloyd and his contemporaries ther probably would not have been a UKfolk revival as we knew it.
lIGHTER AND HIS POST IS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW lLOYDS REPUTATION HAS BEEN DIMINSHED.
LIGHTER . does not take a holistic approach and is not seeing Lloyd in the context of his time, nor does he in his post acknowledge Lloyds other contributions to the folk revival.
BrianPeters and everyone, lighters post proves my point Lloyds overall reputation is being destroyed

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 07 Sep 23 - 12:21 PM

My enjoyment of "Leviathan" ca1970 was spoiled by the realization that some of the songs (like "Wings of a Gull") had obviously been rewritten in British style (without acknowledgment) from tuneless American material in Gale Huntington's "Songs the Whalemen Sang." quote lighter
quote Jim Carroll from facebook
Th song mentioned is one I have sung for a long time and have assumed it was from the oral tradition; Huntingdon assumed the same as he suggests it might be connected with 'The Prisoners Song'. Bert is pretty vague in his note on where it came from - he says it dates from somewhere between the 1820s and 1840s. which is more or less where Huntindon dates it. Why can't it be a version rather than samething Bert wrote. As popular as sea songs and shanties are, the published collections are somewhat sparse - Hugill's being the most comprehensive.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 07:56 AM

I think it's interesting that Stan says "most of my old shipmates seem to think that it was used at both capstan and pumps" but refers to the tune used by Llyod as a forebitter only, because it lacks the all-hands-in chorus. Why if Bert was his source wouldn't he include the standard chorus Bert uses.
As I said on an other forum, Stan stated "Another tune very popular with Liverpool seamen" I think before implying that Stan could be lying, on public forums, it might be worth doing private research.I think trawling for information on public forums, is convenient,but not if it involves possibly impugning someone.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 07:59 AM

IMO Authenticity with Shanties is only achieved, if they are sung in a nmanner that they can be worked to, what prompted MacColl to perform stormalong surely is not as important as whether you can work to the shanty, it does sound like it is influenced by Hugill.
However people will sing them how they like Regardless of scholars, and it could be argued by some that a pleasant musical experience is preferable to an out of tune rendition that can be worked to.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 10:37 AM

IMO Authenticity with Shanties is only achieved, if they are sung in a nmanner that they can be worked to...

No. It's not "can," would, could or should. Authenticity, is actually leaving in the actual work that the verse is leading and the chorus is working. Grunts, groans and all the rest. Metrology, eg.: a tape measure, stop watch, strain gauge, data recorder &c shall also be considered sporting.

It's not why folk go to the club or buy song books.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 07:33 PM

We are talking about presenting recreated material within the revival and passing it off as wholly from oral tradition. Scholars/researchers/truth-seekers are also perfectly entitled to call this out when they come across it.   quote
IMO The whole nature of this music is it gets changed, it evolves, tradtional singers have always altered tunes and words, sometimes through mishearing sometimes because they wanted to,sometimes they made up a tune to a set of words, because there was not a tune AND IN TIMES GONE BY THEY SAID NOTHING ABOUT IT just like Bert
without change traditional music becomes a museum fossil, set in stone.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 08 Sep 23 - 07:44 PM

imo the use communities make of songs, is of primary importance So, although the origin of material is of some interest, it is what the ' folk' do with it that is my PARAMOUNT concern. If people think about Bert's reasoning behind his treatment of song texts, it was to provide material suitable for performance in the folkclubs

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 04:41 AM

He really means, by his choice to make the song like that and pretend that was how he found it. quote gibb sahib
no, that is your interpretation, do you have any factual evidence to back that statement up?
your statement is an example of a negative perception. and is an example of lloyd bashing,do you have any proof that he was pretending that was how he found it.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 04:46 AM

Gibb, you go on about scholastic accuracy,BUT as a scholar you must learn not to make statements that you cannot back up with proof, BACK UP THE STATEMENT, if you cannot, you are not being a good scholar, yet you criticise Lloyd for scholastic weakness

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 09:23 AM

opinions can be informed or uniformed, if opinions are not backed up by evidence, they are scholastically weak and not to be taken seriously and so far there has been no factual evidence, as to what he meant, so we do not know what he meant, it is possible he meant capstan shanties were slower by nature, but we do not know.
since we do not know, and there is no evidence to illustrate what he meant, i keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 10:25 AM

Steve, he has made a comment, quote

Here's some balderdash from Lloyd (1972) saying that this shanty goes slower "by nature"? He really means, by his choice to make the song like that and pretend that was how he found it."
it is not a competition about research, as you seem to be suggesting , it is a question of claiming to know what BERT meant when he was introducing a song at a gig.
the only person who would know is lloyd.
I am not arguing about Lloyds scholastic shortcomings I am pointing out that good scholarship involves not making wild statements that cannot be backed up , until gibb does so i think he is lloyd bashing.
   if he can prove that he knows what lloyd meant on that particular occasion, that chanGes the situation
    Steve i have spent years on the folkscene reading and absorbing articles etc, on all aspects of folk music , through that research i knew years ago that lloyd had scholastic weakness, but i do not make wild statements without evidence about somebody who has been dead many years and cannot answer,it is imo in bad taste

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 01:49 PM

i have not giben a ninterpretation , i said possibly , that is not an interpretation , i hace said quite clearly quote
it is possible he meant capstan shanties were slower by nature, but we do not know.
since we do not know, and there is no evidence to illustrate what he meant, i keep an open mind.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 04:37 PM

Steve: Dick, you are arguing with someone who has done years of dedicated research into the subject AND has first-hand experience of delivering chanties at tasks on board sailing ships.

The Anglo-American revival, art house, music/lecture hall, show-biz chanty has been around since at least the early 19th century and the Wallack brothers. It's all based on a true story and none of it should be taken as hard naval science or history.

Lloyd played fast and loose with song lyrics. And the Gazela's windlass never heard any English work song in all its working days. Both sources tell a better story that way... in the opinion of some.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,MikeofNorthumbria (sans cookie)
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 06:25 PM

"When 'Omer smote 'is bloomin' lyre,
   He'd 'eard men sing by land an' sea;
An' what he thought 'e might require,
   'E went an' took - the same as me!

The market-girls an' fishermen,
   The shepherds an' the sailors, too,
They 'eard old songs turn up again,
   But kep' it quiet - same as you!

They knew 'e stole; 'e knew they knowed.
   They didn't tell, nor make a fuss,
But winked at 'Omer down the road,
   An' 'e winked back - the same as us!"

Rudyard Kipling said that.


"I'll let you be in my dream if I can be in yours."

Dylan said that.


"Instead of brooding obsessively about Lloyd's occasional errors and misdeeds, why not spend a little time and energy celebrating the many things he got right?"

I say that.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 09 Sep 23 - 08:01 PM

Hi Gibb Did the Keelers state that 'Wild Goose Shanty' was a windlass shanty ? The people who posted it, Szanty Szoguna-Showguns Sea Shanties did.
Bert in his notes for the 1957 'Blow Boys Blow'LP refers to it as a halyard shanty. Louisa Jo Killen (Louie) sang it on 'Blow the Man Down,' Lloyd's sleeve notes said "this one like many others was used for any job" He also said " This tune was collected by W Roy Mackenzie who got it from a seaman settled in Nova Scotia" I take it this has been disproved ?
I was there on the night in 1972 when Bert recorded what was later to become the LP 'An Evening with A L Lloyd' The Top Lock folk club was run by Willy Russell, Jim Pedan and John Kaneen. Bert remarked in his introduction to 'Wild Goose' that "shanties always get sung too fast" then goes on to laugh at the pace he did 'Yellar Girls' earlier in his set, indicating that the crew would be knackered.

I watched your entertaining presentation 'Sailor Chanties: History & Genre' for Maritime Folknet.
I must admit I had a smile, when you demonstrated 'Hauling Topsail Halyard' with a group of teenage boys and girls, who looked quite new to the process and completed the task in 10.5 verses and 42 pulls, which you considered to be the 'typical length' I'm not sure an experienced crew would agree with you.
I don't think any of the examples of working shanties given are too successful 'Let the Bulgine Run' for 'Heaving Brake Windlass' is a bit of a shambles.
You note how slow both Ree Baldwyn and Alex Henderson are singing, the same point Bert makes at the Top Lock folk club. I don't see a huge difference in pace between Baldwyns 'South Austria' and Lloyds 'Wild Goose' except that if Bert was right and it was used as a halyard, at that very slow pace, it would be possible to get four pulls on the chorus.
Of course you believe Lloyd made it up on the basis that it was never collected anywhere else.
I wonder what you make of Percy Grainger collecting Brigg Fair from Joseph Taylor. Taylor was the only source, and one of the best tunes in English folk music, at least Delius thought so.Mr Deene of Hibaldstow had the same text to a different tune. Who knows maybe Joseph Taylor did a Bert Lloyd.
My apologies I've gone on too long.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 05:35 AM

I have spent over 60 years in researching all aspects of folk music.
I said.. quote
since we do not know, and there is no evidence to illustrate what he meant, i keep an open mind.
I am not entering in to a silly competition, about who is the most knowledgeable
music is not about competition nor is music research, music research is about good scholarship, good scholarship involves not making statements which cannot be backed up factually
Gibb Sahibs comment about Lloyd, has not yet been backed up by fact, it is Lloyd bashing I am not arguing about Lloyds scholastic shortcomings I am pointing out that good scholarship involves not making wild statements that cannot be backed up , until gibb does so i think he is lloyd bashing

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 12:32 PM

When i want info on sea shanties, i do not go to Lloyd, i contact Chris Roche, who knew Stan Hugill well, and is imo an EXPERT on Shanties and sea songs

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,guestD
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 12:36 PM

After near twenty five years of chanteying-up topsails, topgallants, royals, staysails & headsails aboard the bark Charles W. Morgan & ship Joseph Conrad, plus windlass and anchor work aboard the schooner LA Dunton and hauling whale boats from water to crane on the Morgan, my conclusion is there exists no practical application for the Wild Goose Chantey. It's asymmetrical rhythm renders it a useless labor enigma. Better to be sung in beer halls with harmony & friends.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 12:42 PM

Chris Roche Shanty Crew Graphic
Maritime singer, historian, speaker, traveller.
Shanty Crew

Jun 1973 - Present50 years 4 months

Surrey, UK

Chris edits the Journal of the IACH the International Association of Cape Horner's for that group of people who have voyaged under sail alone to reach Cape Horn he gives a number of illustrated talks on his voyages in square rigged traditional sailing ships to the Southern Oceans, and other of his maritime explorations these, at times include shanties and sailor songs which Chris learnt from his mentor the late Stan Hugill the last British sailor-man to sing these old songs for the purpose of work at sea.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 10 Sep 23 - 08:11 PM

Forgive me Lighter, I'm old and slow. Are you saying the tune Lloyd uses was collected by W Roy Mackenzie, as Bert Lloyd stated in his sleeve notes on the 'Blow the Man Down' LP.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 02:56 AM

STAN HUGILL an illustrated talk by Chris Roche
My Friend Stan
Who was my friend Stan?
I first met Stan Hugill in November of 1972
when he and his boys Martin and Philip
sang at Teachers Folk in the New Kent
Road a whole day later I started looking for
his then out of print book Shanties from the
seven seas along the way I found his other
books and started to collect recordings of
the sea shanty as he had sung it.
Over the years I gained greater interest in
mercantile maritime history and the sea
shanty collected books recordings and took
aboard such an interest that I went to sea
myself in square rigged sailing ships.
Stan Hugill: came from a seafaring family he went to sea at an early age a young
man aged 16 he was wrecked on his first overseas voyage and while ashore in
New Zealand found he had a knack with languages he had a degree in oriental
languages Japanese and Mandarin sponsored by his shipping company Blue
Funnel, he could draw and paint, talk for hours and was something of a hypnotic
speaker. He hoboed across the Americas North and South and the Caribbean he
had to suddenly leave one port when the bombs fell he was there at several key
points in history wrecked in the last big square rigger the British had taken as a
POW WWII. Writer of 5 books including the seminal works `Shanties from the
Seven Seas` and `Sailor Town` while serving as Bosun at the Outward Bound
School Aberdovey. He trained boys at Gordonstoun school and sailed in the big
four Mast barque `Passat` rescued from a scrap yard, was discovered and
revered by British, American, French and Poles alike for his skill with song, history,
language, knowledge of the sea, he worked with National Geographic looking to
find Francis Drakes lead coffin and sea grave.
My friend Stan An illustrated talk and personal reminisce runs for one hour and a
half in story, song, sound clips and slides;
Contact: [e-mail] 020 8647 1396

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 04:29 AM

He is doing the talk at Tenterden folk Festival

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 11 Sep 23 - 07:15 AM

Thank you Lighter.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:25 AM

A really interesting thread, with amazing detail in that last post, Gibb.

FWIW, personally, I hugely appreciate Lloyd as a galvanising/creative figure within the revival; he brought countless amazing songs to attention (albeit with not-infrequent embroidery & alteration), and platformed/mentored some of the finest singers of the era.

However, his scholarship is plainly lax, and far beyond shanties his habit of taking liberties with songs to create particular atmospheres or aesthetics is well known... There's a great US Library of Congress blog that looks at the addition of the Shakespearean 'Take no scorn to wear the horn' verse to Hal an Tow... To my mind, it seems likely that Lloyd also encouraged Mike Waterson to add the 'Since man was first created' opening verse. They also clipped the verses and tweaked the chorus from the Helston source material.
https://blogs.loc.gov/folklife/2017/05/hal-an-tow-some-intriguing-evidence-on-a-may-song/

With a forensic eye over his work, some of his writings would even seem to see him stray into the terrain of the bulls***er or fantasist.

To re-emphasise - folk is a living medium, and it's normal to make small, and sometimes large adjustments - Nic Jones did this all the time (look at Annan Water) but crucially was open about it.

However, Lloyd making brazen false claims about provenance etc simply isn't on; and, where this faulty scholarship proliferates incorrect assumptions into wider historical (mis)understanding (as highlighted above) this is plainly something that needs to be identified, articulated and shared in order to strengthen/repair the foundations of future scholarship.

The comparisons with Peter Kennedy are interesting; I also see Lloyd as a much more benevolent figure - and someone who, as noted above, sought to lift up others, rather than to do them over.

Perhaps his over-reaching comes from a somewhat complacent/self-satisfied sense of his 'unique affinity' for, and insights into, the form... A more extreme example of that in a different field could be those like Gerald Gardiner and Dion Fortune, who I don't doubt believed that they'd unlocked secret wisdom, but really were just making stuff up much of the time.

When pondering Lloyd's motivations/mindset, I also think back to the quotes attributed to Robert Graves as he received criticism for the highly questionable historical detail of The White Goddess - he tetchily emphasised his 'poetic' interpretation of myth and ritual, beyond 'mere scholars'…

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:41 AM

Gibb,

Thank you for your full and comprehensive reply.
I'd like to continue our conversation, there's still some points I want to make. But first, I think should read through the previous thread. If the points I want to make have not already been covered, I'll come back to this thread. My apologies if you've had to repeat yourself already.
You've been very generous with your time, thanks once again.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 04:48 AM

Thanks Gibb.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 08:25 AM

Other quick thoughts -

Has anyone delved into Lloyd's archive (held at Goldsmiths, University of London - alongside the MacColl/Seeger and Alan Bush collections), in order to see if there are glimpses of his thought-process/motivations/modus operandi there?

Do Dave Harker or Georgina Boyes interrogate Lloyd in Fakesong or the Imagined Village, respectively?

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 10:06 AM

Yes, BOUK, I did write quite a bit about Lloyd in "The Imagined Village" - the book's still available via No Masters website if you want to judge the whole thing.

For ease of access, however, you might want to look at the Introduction to "The Singing Englishman" that I wrote at Rod Stradling's for the book's republication in Musical Tradition. http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/tse_int.htm

From memory too, I think Dave Harker devoted a chapter of "Fakesong" to Lloyd. I think he subtitled it "The One that Got Away".

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,guestD
Date: 12 Sep 23 - 01:15 PM

There has been a lot of emphasis concerning where Lloyd sourced such unique & different lyrics & melodies. I would point to the two very distinct and mostly unrelated versions Wm Dorerflinger collected from Dick Maitland and Patrick Tayluer at Sailor's Snug Harbor in Staten Island late in the 1930s and early 40s. I am speaking here of The Leaving of Liverpool. How is it that the two versions are so dramatically different?
Chantey categories are absolutely necessary in educating the general public least they should confuse heaving and hauling. Accurate generalizations certainly can be made for capstan work vs. halyards. Less so with windlass and capstan. This technique was already in place at Mystic when I started in June of 1980 and to my knowledge still exists today.
In the 1980s and 90s I had conversations with both Lou Killen and Martin Carthy (Mystic), likewise with Martin Wyndham-Read within the last ten years, concerning the influence of Bert Lloyd upon them. All said he was generous and passionate in sharing his knowledge and repertoire; not one commented on inaccurate sources or bibliographies.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 02:34 AM

Thank you Georgina, I have The Imagined Village but haven't yet had a chance to read it; I *have* just read your brilliant essay on The Singing Englishman.

One of the things that strongly strikes me from that, is the contradiction between Lloyd's assertion that true folk song could only be produced in narrow social conditions, in a time already passed; and his own irrepressible, unaccountable practice of tinkering, revision and 'improvement'.

This reminds me a touch of MacColl's Critics Group insistence that singers should restrict their repertoires to their authentic geographies of origin - whilst himself being a Salfordian wrapped in ancestral Scottish heritage, singing songs from right across the realm, and a prolific writer of new material to boot.

As in so many fields, the high priests are above the covenants required of the flock...!

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 03:41 AM

This reminds me a touch of MacColl's Critics Group insistence that singers should restrict their repertoires to their authentic geographies of origin - whilst himself being a Salfordian wrapped in ancestral Scottish heritage, singing songs from right across the realm, and a prolific writer of new material to boot.

As in so many fields, the high priests are above the covenants required of the flock...! quote Black Acorn
According to Jim Carroll, who knew MacColl   well, that was not the case, it only applied to people singing at the singers club, neither did the rule apply to writing new songs.
MacColl was born in Salford, his mother was Scottish, According to wiki his parents were Scottish, WIKI IS NOT ALWAYS ACCURATE.
A TYPICAL BIT OF MACCOLL BASHING AND HAS NO CONNECTION WITH LLOYD AND SEA SHANTIES OR LLOYDS SCHOLARSHIP OR LACK OF SCHOLARSHIP

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:37 AM

Can we stick to lloyd and his scholarship, and lack of
.MacColl and the rules at the singers club are irrelevant

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 04:50 AM

Hi RJM, as per my comments on Lloyd, I'm a big fan of MacColl and his contribution to the movement (I even have songs of his in my own formative repertoire), but as with Lloyd it's important not to overlook the problems and contradictions of their practice.

I'm happy to accept a correction that that approach was more to do with the Singers Club, but I've heard direct testimony from a few who took part about this requirement, and how onerous it was. It hardly seems better to me, that it 'only' happened in one setting but not the other - especially as the club would have reached (and probably affected the practice of) far more participants (performers and audiences) over the years than the smaller, tighter group.

As for the relevance - you don't need me to remind you of the closeness in relationship between MacColl and Lloyd. I'm attempting to reflect upon parallels between key figures of the revival, as part of a broader reflection upon the attitudes and tendencies of these luminaries. I'm not bashing either of them, nor - indeed - Robert Graves, in my earlier post.

Since you seem keen to return to the central point, and since you insisted upon evidence to underpin assertions, it would be great to hear your thoughts on Gibb's tremendously insightful contribution above.

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 06:27 AM

it is not a question of better it is a question of being accurate
.I think you are right, a lot of us went and sought out material from the uk, but it was not exclusively down to MacColl,in fact it was the idea of Lomax
Cyril Tawney had a different approach he went to singers and said i have found this song which would really suit you, a more subtle approach and imo more successful.
A number of people including Bert encouraged younger singers to look up our own geographical british isles material [including Ireland]of songs, instead of singing american material.
I thanked Gibb and think his post was very good.
Black Acorn scoring points is negative and does not contribute to good overall discussion

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 06:47 AM

Black Acorn, I am well informed on the policy of the singers club, I have a good friend who was booked there twice and became a resident.Jim Carrolls posts also corroborate what i have been told

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 08:02 AM

Actually Bert and Ewan fell out with one anther for a while, and at one time you could not be friends with both of them, so much for closeness

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 09:49 AM

good post, Brian

Subject: RE: A.L.Lloyd & Sea Chanties
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 13 Sep 23 - 12:12 PM

Happy to believe that too, Brian. One of the people I know who complained about it has themself cultivated a predominantly authentic home-regional repertoire, but they were still conscious of the contradiction of being held to standards not always adhered to amongst those by which they were set.

As above, it's not an attack. I only raised it by analogy with the apparent divergence - highlighted in Georgina Boyd's excellent piece - between Lloyd's philosophical assertions and personal approach, and I'm happy to defend that comparison. It's about the curious exemptions that some influential figures allow themselves but don't extend to others.

RJM, I think most people would accept the general usage of the word 'close' to describe E.M. & A.L.L.'s working relationship over an extended period.