What's Happening with EFDSS?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Robbie H Thomas
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:22 AM

Captain wrote:
"I have been a professional folksinger for over thirty years,and I [along with many other professional folk singers]have done more to PROMOTE English folksong,than EFDSS with its passive attitude towards song,."

Don't disagree with you in that that's how I saw it up until I got stuck in... the AGM that I got elected at had a Tea Dance as the afternoon attraction.... you can guess my reaction :-) However, that's what outside folk see, what they don't see is Malcolm and the team beavering away in the library sending information on song, story, dance, music, customs aound the UK and round the globe. Outsiders don't read the Journal, they don't read EDS, they don't understand that the Society does one hell of a lot of work in the areas of song and music.

Captain also wrote:
"I also believe the LACK of promotion of english folk song by EFDSS,was accelerated when they withdrew from running festivals.
letting professional organisers run folk festivals is no guarantee that ENGLISH Folk music will be promoted.
Iwould be happierto see EFDSS running festivals.[they used to manage it very well]."

I completely agree with you on this .....

Promotion has not been one of the Society's strengths... that's going to change... but don't expect overnight miracles... It took almost 6 years for the last similar change programme that I was involved in to bear fruit so we're only just starting.. you'll see buds and shoots, some things will work, some things will fail, but at the end of the day EFDSS will change into a strong, vibrant, relevant, proactive organisation - and if it works out the way that I'd personally like it to, we'll maybe manage a couple or three Folk Festivals in there!!

Now is the time for us all to check our egos and the past at the door and get stuck in - I'll take advice from anyone, warranted criticism from anybody, practical help (financial or otherwise) from everyone to get this change process up and running.

Robbie

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Robbie H Thomas
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 06:58 AM

George Papavgeris wrote:
"How can the ordinary folkie punter help?"

George
The money is incredibly useful - so joining the Society (and getting your free Public Liability Insurance, EDS and the Journal as well as a vote a the AGM and the opportunity to stand for membership of the NC) is a great first step.

EFDSS isn't a monolith - it's made up of its members so we need (in order to have a strong voice in the corridors of power) as many as possible - so obviously number one help is to recruit members to the Society.

Volunteering opportunities won't be confined to London and CSH.

We're beginning work now on a developing potential regional and national projects etc that will require volunteers to work on them, it'll take time and we need help to both develop and implement these.

Opportunities to assist will exist across all the areas of the Society's activities.

In this day of Skype, webcams and email, teams can be spread across vast areas so what I would ask is that everyone who wants to help drops an email with a note of their background, their skills, what they have to offer and an indication of the amount of time that they can put in (if that's possible to quantify) to [e-mail] with Robbie H Thomas in the subject line (so that I'll get it). We'll then start assigning teams and tasks appropriate to the Society's needs and individuals' talents.

Let me stress again - you don't need to be an EFDSS member to help out, but it would be really nice if you were :-)

Robbie

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 07:30 AM

Robbie, I'm interested to know why you see festivals as a way forward. There are over 350 folk festivals annually in Britain - many of which feature and promote English music. What would an EFDSS festival have to offer as a USP? How would it manage the infrastructure required? Festival punters have become much more discerning, and expect quite a professional level of management. For many festvals, this means a team who work all year round on delivery. EFDSS would have to be pretty confident about creating that kind of experience to make all the effort worthwhile...

There is, of course, a significant gap left behind by the demise of The National, which was a unique event, and maybe that's where EFDSS could step in. But there were serious infrastructural issues which caused The National to stop, and I should imagine these would have to be addressed before anyone picked up the reins...and I should also imagine that if such a thing were easily achievable, it would have been accomplished within the past couple of years.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 07:35 AM

Hi Robbie,

I have a specific point to make regarding a comment in one of your recent posts. You argue (rightly I think) that the Library is the Society's most precious asset. You add that if one day the Society found itself unable to continue running the Library, any university would jump at the chance to purchase it.   If you mean by that "any English university", then I'm very dubious.    And if any English university (even, I'm embarrassed to say, my own Alma Mater) were bidding in the market for the VWML, I wouldn't trust them with it.

Our once-flourishing groves of academe are being converted to joyless factory farms by bureaucrats who will not look beyond the bottom line of a balance sheet. Whenever an injection of capital is required to finance its latest expansion programme, or to reduce its overdraft, then a university's cultural assets are likely to be flogged to the highest bidder, regardless of their historic significance. If you and your colleagues at CSH are contemplating – however remotely – the idea of giving the Library into the care of an English university, please, please, please think again. It would be much safer at the Smithsonian!

By the way, I agree entirely with your observations on the lack of official support for English traditional culture (as compared with Irish, Scottish, etc). For further comments, see my article "England, whose England?" on the Musical Traditions website (www.mustrad.org.uk)

Wassail!

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:04 AM

I would like to thank robbie for giving his time to answering these questions,and not personally abusing me as Ruth Archer has done earlier.
Ruth archer,it is my opinion that english folk song is becoming more and more marginalised I see less ansd less ENGLISH TRADTIONAL MUSIC FEATURING AT FOLK FESTIVALS ,Because it is not commercial,
professional organisers have to be commercial ,and do not have a duty in their constitution to preserve or promote English song.the EFDSS has a duty to preserve it.
I am sure EFDSS would in time be capable of running a professional festival,they ran Sidmouth, Whitby. Chippenhamand others for many many years in aprofessional manner.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Adam Lesson
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:18 AM

captain

I'm sure Ruth Archer is just frustrated, as I am, at your persitent refusal to factor in all the previous replies and information to produce a logically argued case.

Robbie is obviously a patient saint who might get a heavenly reward.

AL

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Robbie H Thomas
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:24 AM

Just very quickly as I've got to get some other stuff done...and the dogs need walking....

Ruth
I don't "see festivals as the way forward" - what I said was "and if it works out the way that I'd personally like it to, we'll maybe manage a couple or three Folk Festivals in there!!"

There's a world of difference, but in any event there are other much more pressing matters to hand at the moment and festivals are not at the top of my EFDSS to-do list, in fact they're not even on it yet.


Mikeo f Northumbria
No-one, but no-one is thinking of disposing of the VWML so please - nobody start that hare off again.....
My point was that if we lose EFDSS we could lose the VWML to a university or somewhere where we'd neer get to see it again - and that the VWML has a significant financial value as well as an incalculable cultural one. I don't fancy the trek to the Smithsonian ...

Robbie

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:45 AM

I'd be interested to know how you're defining English traditional music, Dick, cause I see lots of young performers booked at loads of festivals who are exploring English traditional song. Jim Causley and Devil's Interval, Demon Barbers, Tim van Eyken, Witches of Elswick, Jackie Oates, Lisa Knapp...the list goes on.

Our folk festival is incorporating its own in-house acoustic folk club this year, specifically to cater for and celebrate the more traditional end of the market. Many other festivals have a second stage featuring more traditional acts, too.

I disagree that incorporating traditional work is a bad commercial decision. You can have commercial and traditional performers in the same festival. The cost of putting on traditional acts is tiny compared to the cost of the more commercial strand of the programme, plus the technical costs are negligible. But if you have a decent traditional strand to your programme you'll attract additional audiences. So as a business decision, it seems a sound one to me.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Stu
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 08:58 AM

Excellent posts Robbie. Expect a mail from me in the near future. I still can't afford the £33 to renew my membership, but when I have the cash I think I will be back for another year to see how it goes.

However, I have to take issue with your assertion that CSH is accessible - if you have the money. It would be more accessible if it were based more centrally in the country and cheaper for people to get too, and without the dreaded London prices easier to stay close by (you Southerners don't half pay a lot for your ale!).

Sorry I keep harping on about the financial side, but when you're a bit strapped it casts a new light on some of these arguments, and you realise how much you can miss out on.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 10:26 AM

The EFDSS really has to do something to make it relevant to the majority of people. I have been involved with folk music for 40 years but I've never felt that EFDSS had anything to offer me. I did join it briefly, because I felt I ought to, but realised I was getting nothing from it apart from a rather academic journal, and I let my membership lapse.

When I lived near London I'd occasionally make the journey out to Camden Town but C#H always seemed totally dead - hardly anyone about, and a poorly-stocked shop with a just handful of records and books, mostly about dance. I came away feeling I'd had a wasted journey and have never bothered since - especially after I moved north 25 years ago.

The impression I had of it back then was that it was full of old farts who were mainly interested in D4D. Apart from hosting the library, it appeared to do little for song, which was and remains my interest.

In fairness, that was a long time ago and I'm now an old fart myself.   But I've seen very little effort from EFDSS to try to attract me. Most of the events and projects I've been involved with have been run by enthusiasts without involving EFDSS.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 11:34 AM

adam lesson
,stop trying to rewite history,Ruth Archer said that my offering to sponsor a songwriting competition,was an attempt to obtain self aggrandisement and an attempt to influence the future of EFDSS.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: oggie
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:16 PM

Whilst it may seem that a CSH located in the midlands would be more accessable, the reality is that all roads lead to London and whilst it may be further for anyone not living in the midlands it's easier to get to. When I visit CSH and the VWML it tends not to be a specific journey as it would be to, say, Birmingham, but I add it into my itinery as one item for a visit to London.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 07 - 05:46 PM

I think I might join - but surely the reality of the preservation of folk music is to present it with verve. Curious that Jim Moray is not on the list of youngsters "promoting", nor John Loomes.

This brings me back to the idea of a cup, not for breeding cuckoos to displace our young, but to arrange and present our young to their best advantage. Would the kennel club permit a jack russell terrier (actually, a mongrel) (or a pit bull) into the pointer puppy class? But the pointer breed has evolved into a much sleeker bigger stronger dog than it was 40 years ago. Not sure if any can still point or scent or quarter - but with luck you see the analogy.

A revival of the Nats is a very good plan...

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 04:26 AM

If all roads lead to London, how does anyone manage to get anywhere else????

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 04:44 AM

Ruth Archer,while I realise that traditional music evolves and changes.I am concerned that traditional unaccompanied solo singing,is likely to miss out if professional organisers run festivals,because it does not represent the most commercial side of folk music.EFDSS has aduty to preserve unaccompanied traditional folk song,along with other traditional music.
I dont see much evidence that leading exponents,such as Roy Harris RonTaylor Kevin Mitchell being booked at festivals,yet they are fine exponents of their craft.
The mis managers of EFDSS,over the lAST THIRTY /FORTY YEARS,have managed to stem the flow of revenue in,by abolishing branches, abolishing competitions,withdrawing from Festival organisation.
apart from festivals being a way of encouraging new membership,they offer a ready made market for selling EFDSS publications.
no wonder EFDSS is in this financial predicament.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 05:41 AM

Dick,

First of all Roy Harris is virtually retired from professional singing. As singers get older they tend to sing less.

However I believe he came out of retirement recently to compere the Cyril Tawney Memorial Concert at .......err......Cecil Sharp House.

There is a whole festival devoted to traditional singing less then five miles from where I live. Google Bradfield Traditional Music Festival. Real (i.e. done for enjoyment) traditional singing carries on in the outer Sheffield area at places like shepherd´s meets and hunt suppers and in a local pub each Saturday night. Course it might not make the headlines where you live Dick, in fact it doesn´t even make the headlines around here, but it does exist. And we have six weeks or so of traditional carols every year and a sell-out festival devoted to those carols every two years. People come from all over the world for that. Even Ireland this year.

The idea that professional organisers will not include traditional singers whereas non-professionals will, just does not reflect reality as it exists. One place where it was usually possible to hear traditional unaccompanied singing was the National, closed for reasons other than finance.

What they bring to a festival is much more than programming. Fund raising outside ticket sales is an important job, which is why they spend huge amounts of time doing it. It enables more artists to be booked, it enables community involvement often with young people and it enables modern IT to be used to spread the message, amongst other things.

Virtually all the organisers, professional and amateur have a love of folk music and that includes unaccompanied singing. Waterson:Carthy are still a top draw at festivals and whilst they do use guitar and fiddle, they are hardly a rock band.

Unaccompanied singing has never been a great draw at festivals. Unaccompanied singers have been included, and it seems to me they still are.

First of all there were no young people. When presented with a list of young people you switch tack and say no unaccompanied singers.

Next?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: BB
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 06:02 AM

Likewise, Kevin Mitchell has also given up singing - much to the chagrin of one festival organiser at least, who used to book him regularly.

This business of EFDSS running festivals is really a bit of a red herring. Most of the 'EFDSS' festivals were, in fact, run not by EFDSS but by amateurs as most are today (please don't equate 'amateur' with 'unprofessional'), but were simply run under the EFDSS banner, and were overseen by EFDSS regional staff. When the regional staff were made redundant, the festivals like Whitby, Chippenham, etc. became independent. (Sidmouth was the only one which had full-time staff, and that was in financial trouble. Its staff were made redundant and independent organisers took over.) What it meant was that if the festivals lost money, EFDSS was liable to bail them out, and EFDSS could not afford to do that. Thus those festivals, when they became independent, had to sink or swim - some succeeded, others didn't, but those that did probably became stronger and better run in consequence.

And two that did succeed, and still do, are Whitby and Chippenham, which still maintain a strong 'traditional' identity, and book many unaccompanied singers of traditional songs.

Oh, and Ron Taylor was booked at Sidmouth last year.

Barbara

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 06:06 AM

Wow, that's a bit of a tirade Cap'n!

It looks like you're blaming the efdss for absolutely everything. (note: we didn't go into Iraq waving our six longswords!)

As I remember, the efdss main festival involvement was Sidmouth and Whitby. There were probably other weekend festivals but I've only been with the efdss since 2000 so I wouldn't know. When the efdss handed over Sidmouth to professional management in 1986 it was a good financial decision by a volunteer council and saved both the festival and the society. You can check the history in Derek Schofield's excellent book 'The First Week in August'.


As a regular attender until recently, I can say that when Steve Heap and John Heydon took over Sidmouth I have seen as much solo traditional singing as when the efdss ran it, maybe more. I used to go to post efdss Whitby especially FOR the traditional singers. So you can't say things went to pot because the efdss left - that's just rubbish,

Abolish competitions? What are you referring to? Did the efdss run traditional singing competitions? Did they stop them and send an order out to the folk world that this was 'not allowed'. If they had, would the folk world of the time complied? Probably not. It's irrelevant anyway.

I agree that the disappearance of the branches was not a good move in my eyes but the NC at the time probably had their reasons and I'm certainly not going to worry about them in the 3rd millenium.

But here we go again...... talking ancient history - boring, boring, boring.   I joined the efdss in 2000 and I'm only interested in looking forward - that's why I joined. Since I joined I've concentrated on getting the online infrastructure in place. Robbie is newly arrived and is using his vast and very very high level business experience to get the business infrastructure right. Others are working slowly and steadily on Education and Publishing and Capital projects. We're busy Captain, and just because we're not presently doing all the numerous little things that everybody thinks we ought to be doing because that's what they're interested in doesn't mean we're not interested or that we don't want to do them in the future - it just means we're busy.

And while we're on 'ready made market for selling EFDSS publications' - while I've been writing this email I've had two emails from the EFDSS shop robot to tell me we've just taken another two book orders - one of them for traditional song book published by the efdss. That's the way we sell a lot of stuff these days. Having said that you could have visited our stall at some of the recent festivals, joined, bought a book, had a chat, or even stood and told us how to run the society. We might even have offered you a coffee. We don't need to RUN a festival to be there and others are making such a good job of it anyway.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 08:49 AM

I am blaming past EFDSS directors for mistaken policy decisions [including in my opinion the decision not to relocate Cecil Sharp House],nothing more nothing less.[who else is to blame].
the point is that if efdss are not running festivals they are missing business oppurtunities.
only an idiot businessman would close down or get rid of their branches.
BB .The fact Ron taylor had one booking at sidmouth,proves nothing one swallow does not make a summer.
Unaccompanied english language solo singing is becoming marginilised,with the exception of IRELAND Where partly due to Comhaltas competitions it is flourishing,along with unaccompanied singing in the IRISH language.it is the responsibility of EFDSSS toPRESERVE ALL FORMS OF english Traditional song.
Finally it is agood thing if efdss can be discussed in an amicable fashion,I am not against EFDSS but lessons can be learned from past mistakes.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 09:16 AM

Likewise, Kevin Mitchell has also given up singing - much to the chagrin of one festival organiser at least, who used to book him regularly.

Kevin Mitchell was in fine singing form at the recent Inishowen Song Seminar. It was a real pleasure to hear him again.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 10:00 AM

What is happening with EFDSS.
1.Alot of hard work by unpaid volunteers John Adams, Malcolm Douglas and many others.
2.the Rectification[hopefully]of lots of catastrophic policy decisions by past directors.
well I wish EFDSS good luck,because afterall the past mis management,your going to need it.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,cliff
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 10:56 AM

Hi Barbara B., way up there on 19 April.
Actually, it was the library staff that was unfriendly. To give them benefit of the doubt, i think they were disgruntled at the prospect of being shut down. Plus, the shop had shut, and they (the librarians) were expected to hawk the leftover wares. Or maybe they just hate Americans-- can't say's i blame them. On the other hand, everyone else in London was friendly. And the food was good.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 11:48 AM

If guest Robbie Thomas joined Mudcat we could all pm him to offer our support as volunteer promoters of EfD&S, or at leastr to find out what kind of help he wants

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:10 PM

Mo,

Robbie published an email address in an earlier thread. It was a bit buried in other stuff but the sentence ran...

In this day of Skype, webcams and email, teams can be spread across vast areas so what I would ask is that everyone who wants to help drops an email with a note of their background, their skills, what they have to offer and an indication of the amount of time that they can put in (if that's possible to quantify) to [e-mail] with Robbie H Thomas in the subject line (so that I'll get it). We'll then start assigning teams and tasks appropriate to the Society's needs and individuals' talents.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Robbie H Thomas
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 12:57 PM

Hi Mo and all..

I'm in now - so PM away ... tho' I'll have to find out how that works :-)

Robbie

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,cookieless in a spanish internet cafe. Folki
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 01:38 PM

the point is that if efdss are not running festivals they are missing business oppurtunities.

No Dick they are not missing business opportunities.

The are not risking their members´ money - an entirely different thing. You seem to think there a fortune to be made in running festivals. Trust me on this one Dick, there isn´t. And virtually every festival in the UK is at risk from the weather.

I have been to festivals where the EFDSS has had a stall, and I am sure there are others where the work of the society is promoted.

The situation as has been patiently explained to you over and over again is that in Ireland traditional music has respect and compartively speaking, massive funding. Here it doesn´t. Neither of us may like that, but we have to work from where we are, and not from where we would like to be.

And I certainly wouldn´t like my remarks about professional v. non-professional festival organisers to be seen as a criticism of non-professional organisers, many of whom I count as my friends and for whom I have the greatest respect.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: BB
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:36 PM

Guest Cliff, they must have been having a really off day - it really is unlike them!

And Dick, I accept that the fact that Ron was booked at Sidmouth says very little, and I have no idea what other festivals he may have been/is booked at. It just came to my mind when you mentioned his name.

As to Kevin Mitchell, I'm delighted to know he hasn't stopped singing completely - maybe he's just not taking bookings any more.

Barbara

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:56 PM

John or Robbie, can you point us to the earlier thread, I can't find it by search, (especially as I don't know when or what to search for)

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 02:56 PM

Also Guest Cliff:

I agree with Barbara, the library staff are generally wonderful.

However, I didn't understand your post. There's been no folkshop at C#H for many a year, probably more than a decade - certainly not since I've been there (2000).

......... and there's not been any prospect of the library shutting down.

I don't know where this stuff comes from..... is there a parallel folk universe? :-)

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:02 PM

Sorry Mo, I said earlier THREAD when I meant earlier POST.

It was buried in Robbie's post to this thread on 21 Apr 07 - 06:58 AM (He's an early riser!)

Sorry for the confusion.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 03:09 PM

Running festivals is now much more difficult and expensive because of the licensing requirements, and the need to provide facilities and security - and folkies who don't want to pay for these on top of the amounts needed to pay the artists. I'm very grateful to the people who are still running festivals, but EFDSS got out of running festivals because it couldn't afford to.

I joined EFDSS when I was 17, partly because EFDSS was running Sidmouth festival, and the amount of the season ticket discount for EFDSS members was the same as the annual EFDSS sub (5/- in old money, I think). For many years there were Sidmouth competitions for singing and storytelling (Sidmouth singers of the year include Moira Craig, Gilly Hewitt and Sam Viner).

EFDSS was also at that time running a London folk festival in Cecil Sharp House in October, and there was a competition in that people who impressed the judges in the Saturday audition sessions were invited to perform in the main Saturday evening concert.

There was a competition at the National Festival too. Mudcat's Noreen was one of the last winners before Sutton Bonington ceased to be available as a venue. The only reason the National hasn't been resurrected is because no venue has so far been identified that provides such a great combination of performance halls and rooms, lecture facilities, informal sessions (singing and playing), reasonably good food and drink, and affordable accommodation.

Even if EFDSS was willing in principle to resurrect the National, there would still be a problem finding an affordable venue.

Kitty

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 22 Apr 07 - 04:35 PM

"There was a competition at the National Festival too. Mudcat's Noreen was one of the last winners before Sutton Bonington ceased to be available as a venue"
Probably not really on topic, but in fact Kitty, although as far as I recall Noreen did go in for the competition, I don't think she ever won it - Sue v G did, and Noreen reported the fact to this forum(the year in question was 2003) - she was the last in a consecutive run of at least 5 female winners of the title "Singer of the National" (and was not the only Mudcatter amongst them), before it was won by a male singer (whose name I ashamed to admit I can't recall in 2004, but he was good), and a young lady (whose name I didn't catch) in the last competition in 2005. The competition carried no kudos - merely the chance to win an inscribed pewter tankard (although in earlier years there had been the chance to move on to take part in the Brewhouse competition as well), long defunct before I went in for the competition myself in 2000. It was also probably the best kept secret at the National - few people there knew who had won! It did, however, serve a very good purpose in providing those who participated with valuable, and honest feedback on their performance IMHO- both merits and demerits, and also some education as well as entertainment for the spectators of the event.

As to the National Festival itself - that's sorely missed. There was nothing quite like it - if the EFDSS were able to resurrect it (or anyone else for that matter)it would fill a gaping hole. However, as you say, the reasons for its demise appear to have been practical ones ... great shame.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,GUEST: PippaSandford
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:43 AM

Surreysinger - the winner of the last competition at the National was Julie Russell, from Nottingham. A lovely singer.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Stu
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 05:55 AM

"the reality is that all roads lead to London and whilst it may be further for anyone not living in the midlands it's easier to get to"

Then you have a distorted view of reality, and you need to get out and about a bit more.

The country doesn't stop at the Midlands - it carries on into what's called 'the north'. Strangely, the Midlands is easier to get to than London for people in 'the north'. This is because it's in the geographical centre of the country (that's the big green bit outside the M25 - you can see it from the clockwise lane).

Also difficult for Londoners to comprehend is the fact that up here in the Midlands and 'the north' we are able to carry on our lives without feeling as if all roads lead to London - they don't. Some lead to the pub, or town or to other roads, and these in turn go to Sheffield, Manchester, Birmingham, Liverpool, Newcastle and even Hull.

So siting the EFDSS more centrally would mean it could probably afford bigger and better premises, the parking and access may be better, and more people would be closer, and that's better for the Society, the country and the tradition.

Eh up!

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 07:15 AM

Thanks for that Pippa - and I have recalled that the winner in 2004 was named Brian (but I still can't remember his surname).Sadly it seems that the organisers never kept a full record of who had won in each year -I am aware that Rita Cherriman won on one occasion. Although I attended quite a few of the competitions I cannot remember the names of winners before 1998 when Theresa Tooley won, although I do know that the winner before that was a woman as well!! After that the winners were 1999 Mo Keast, 2000 Irene Shettle, 2001 No-one (National suspended due to foot and mouth), 2002 Marian Button ,2003 Sue ,2004 Brian ? ,2005 Julie Russell - and in that bunch there are at least three Mudcatters!!!

Back to main topic - hadn't noticed the plea for volunteers embedded in one of Robbie's earlier posts - you'll be getting an email from me on that score Robbie!

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: treewind
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 10:47 AM

Robbie - welcome to Mudcat!
You'll have seen my PM by the time you read this.
Thanks for taking my dissection of the EDFSS aims seriously enough to reply to it - a very revealing and inspiring post, and it's encouraging to know that there are people with real commercial management experience shaking things up there.

I consequently feel better disposed to supporting the society financially - it looks as if it might be getting spent sensibly!

As Robbie asked, I've sent an offer of practical help and list of possibly useful skills. I hope others are doing the same.

Anahata

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: oggie
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 10:55 AM

OK - so I was making the point in a semi-flippant manner but the case still remains that from Hull (where I live) it is easier to visit CSH as part of a day in London than make a special trip to, say, Birmingham or Coventry. If I choose not to drive it is definately easier.

I realise that not being a southerner and supporting CSH being in London may seem odd but so be it. Oh, BTW I get out quite enough thank you.

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 02:11 PM

Yes BB,and Roy Harris ,has just said that he would be happy to do a few more bookings,see favourite folksingers thread.
EFDSS used to have a flagship it was called   sidmouth,where herga kitty,and undoubtedly many others joined.
this cookieless from spanish internet cafe,is putting words into my mouth,I never said there was a fortune to be made from running folk festivals,what I am saying is that EFDSS should be able to run one festival,and be able to do so without making aloss
Their INSURANCE rates for other festivals are very cheap,for example the jazz festival I am involved in,costs over 1000 euros to insure,[750 STERLING]
I believe Insurance under the umbrella of EFDSS for a festival is 50 STERLING,if that is right,it is ridiculously cheap.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:10 PM

Crikey. Is it really easier to get to London than Brum from Hull?

Ah well. I don't suppose it really matters. I still think it would be better more central, but what the heck. I can't see myself going any time soon, and when I finally do get to the smoke I'll endeavour to make a visit.

"Oh, BTW I get out quite enough thank you"

Sorry - I meant that light heartedly, but realised when I read it back it looked a tad scratty.

I think I need to get out more . . .

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 03:44 PM

Bubbly rat,is reviving the BUDE FOLK FESTIVAL,and asking if performers will come for free.
I have performed for EFDSS free in the past,it used to be worth doing Sidmouth for free tickets for the publicity,and also the BBC folk on two coverage in the Beach Hut.
Of course the smartest business movers are CCE who run fleadhs,and charege the musicians for entering the competitions,that is really good business.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: danensis
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:04 PM

The other reason that location is important is the high rent and rates in London, and the inflated salaries that have to be paid.

You could probably get something mcuh more suited to the 21st century in say the former coalfield entirely paid for out of grants and subsidies, with most of the salaries paid for as well.

If location is unimportant because of telephones and t'internet that's a good reason to move it out of one of the most expensive areas of the country.

According to the Ordnance Survey the geographic centre of the country is just outside Morton in North East Derbyshire - funnily enough in a former coalfield!

John

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: oggie
Date: 23 Apr 07 - 04:54 PM

Grants, subsidies and location.

At one level yes it makes a lot of sense to go to an area which is offering the above. The snag is always in the small print. Can you take any existing staff with you? Have you been in existence too long? Do you meet the multicultural requirements? etc

These are not idle problems. As a small business I have applied for grants, I have never been successful. Why? In one case I did not employ enough people fron an ethnic minority, in another I had traded for 5 years, the cut-off was 4, in another case they would help with staff training costs but not working capital etc.

There is an assumption that there is a lot of money out there and there is BUT you have to tick the right boxes. It is easier for a new venture to receive funding than an existing one. Round here, Remould Theatre did lots of good work (inc "Northern Trawl" for those with long memories) but one year the boxes changed and they didn't meet them anymore so exit one community theatre company.

Also bear in mind that the London Olympics has just raided the Lottery again so there is less money there.

My personal opinion is that the priority is to get the organisation focussed and functioning and then consider location etc. It's a matter of getting ducks in line and not doing everything at once as I don't think the resources (both money and management) are there to do it all at once.

All the best

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: treewind
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 04:09 AM

For better or for worse (and most seem to think it's for worse) the EFDSS got Cecil Sharp House listed some years ago. That lowers the resale value of the house enormously because you can't change its use much and of course you can't rebuild it. So it would be hideously expensive to move by selling the house and buying another (even at northern prices)

Of course keeping Cecil Sharp house and acquiring another property in the Midlands or the North would be expensive too. It's probably the better option, as it makes sense for the society to keep some sort of London presence.

The practical way forward might be to start a small branch in the North and build it up slowly. I have no idea if that's the plan, it's just an idea.

Anahata

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: nutty
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:13 AM

If the issue is one of accessibility, then the most sensible solution and probably the cheapest in the longrun would be to put every thing on line. Once everything catalogued as is happening at present it shouldn't be too hard a job.

You could then encourage people to become members so they can access this material from their own homes.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:36 AM

Nutty suggestion: (sorry, couldn't resists that!)

If the issue is one of accessibility, then the most sensible solution and probably the cheapest in the longrun would be to put every thing on line. Once everything catalogued as is happening at present it shouldn't be too hard a job.

The Society has already made a start with the online catalogue

Out of interest, can anyone suggest another Society who has already done this and might provide a model?

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: GUEST,Sue
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:46 AM

Regarding accessibility ... if everything is just online then that is NOT accessible to everyone, because everyone isn't online. I produce a newsletter for writers - hard copy and an online version - and I advertise writing competitions in it. Space is so limited that I often just give website addresses for where people can find detailed guidance notes. BUT, in the interests of accessibility I have to have to state that hard copies of all information can be obtained from me at my postal address - and I get plenty of takers for that from people who don't use computers.

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Blowzabella
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 06:49 AM

Hi John

No examples to offer but if you are interested in finding out about possibilities, this chap (Bill Hubbard) is a friend of mine and is in charge of a leading research project about open access for info .... hmmm ... do I smell a partnership project .... http://www.sherpa.ac.uk/staff.html

Might be worth an approach to the Uni?

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: nutty
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 07:35 AM

Plenty of examples John ....... Malcolm Douglas will be able to advise you on this but many establishments are now attempting to put collections on line.....

Online Collections

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: johnadams
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:11 AM

Nutty, that's all wonderful stuff and thanks for pointing me to a few things I hadn't seen before.

However, you can't compare EFDSS capability with Library of Congress, the Bodleian Library, the Canadian National Library, the British Library, etc. Even the Irish Traditional Music Archive with its millions of Euros investment from the goverment isn't offering anything like an online library.

I think that the Bodleian Broadside project was AHRB funded - a source not generally available for non academic bodies. The Farne project was probably quite attractive to the funders as it sits nicely alongside the Sage in a regeneration area and it was a huge piece of funding that achieved it.

There are also lots of worthy small scale volunteer projects such as my own Village Music Project and the Traditional Music Library and others, but they are not on the scale that you are implying we should aspire to.

No, I was wondering if there was any small membership Society that was trying to do what efdss is trying to do and actually achieving it.

J

Subject: RE: What's Happening with EFDSS?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 24 Apr 07 - 08:35 AM

Nutty ... "Once everything catalogued as is happening at present it shouldn't be too hard a job."
As far as I understand it from the information available up to date the cataloguing job is still an ongoing and slow process, and has to be due to the lack of sufficient bodies/available funding. If that is so, it may be some time before that particular task is itself complete... and then you say "Once everything catalogued as is happening at present it shouldn't be too hard a job". As a layperson I would have thought that actually arranging for online availability of documents etc itself would also be a time consuming and costly process - notwithstanding the availability of catalogue entries. The idea is very nice in theory - but as John has pointed out many of the great collections available online had the money, and presumably the bodies, to throw at the task.