Tech: Sibelius vs Finale

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 04:19 PM

Tom,

Go to print. There's a PDF sign down the bottom on the left.

Macs have been able to save as a PDF since 10.3 I think.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 05:48 PM

Goodness me, so there is. I guess they put it there just for PrintMusic and their strange approach to product delivery (not).

I've had a response.

They say "The good news is that we have re-written large parts of PrintMusic so that the program is compatible with Mac-Intel processors. You can purchase the upgrade from www.finalemusic.com to version 2011"

In other words implying it was never sold as working on Intel Macs, which it most certainly was or I'd not have bought it. Obviously.

Furthermore their Support case web page shows a big bunch of customer posts, then a bunch of responses, then a bunch of customer posts etc. You can't begin to read the actual correspondence in the order that it happened. Not helpful when trying to trace through an old and recurring problem.

And ALL the posts - even the ones from 06 (I've now established I got it in April 06), are now dated 03/22/2007.

Honestly. Some companies really don't deserve to be in business.

Sibelius vs Finale?

My mind is made up.

Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius Sibelius!

There. Feel better now.

Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 06:54 PM

Tom,

Remember that Print Music is the cheap version of "Finale" and does not do everything that Finale can do.
I don't think Sibelius do a scaled down version.
All I know is that from my experience Finale [the full one] is great, and has worked on my intel Mac with no problems.
I corresponded with Finale at first, but the guys on the forum are much better!
So when you finally make up your mind...........!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nick
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:10 PM

RTFM

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:22 PM

Most software is written to work on PCs and simply "ported" to Macs; the bits that don't work entirely properly or naturally most vendors don't seem to worry about, and Mac testing is less than rigorous (as if any products are well-tested before release any more). So while products may be "Mac-compatible", they aren't really designed to work on Macs, more's the pity. When you go Mac, you only go back kicking and screaming.

Thus "rewriting to work on Macs" may simply mean that the innards were redesigned to be more fully cross-platform and better integrated with Mac interfaces. It may also have been a euphemistic way of saying "we fixed the registration change which Apple foist upon us without sufficient notice."

Given my experience with PrintMusic, I'm inclined to support your decision: if their mid-range offering--and probably their top-end offering as well--can't even print simple tunes as normally notated, they've seriously missed the boat. As a basic guideline, there shouldn't be anything you can do in Barfly that you can't also do in PrintMusic, regardless of the many things PrintMusic can do that Barfly can't. But I have no experience with Sibelius, and won't shell out $500 for a product I can't get detailed information on prior to purchase--I've been burned too many times. MakeMusic at least lets you download the complete user guides for their products.

So first I'd advise going to Sibelius music repositories, downloading their free reader and sampling scores of similar music to ensure they have ALL the features you need. Of course, this will only tell you definitively about their top-end offering, but if I recall, they don't have a mid-range product or I'd have transitioned when I ran into the Finale registration fiasco. (Anyway, "mid-range" these days tends to mean "bait and switch", with key features even the basic user needs unsupported.) It also won't tell you how easy or difficult the program is to use. Wonder if Consumer Reports has ever done comparison studies...

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 07:29 PM

Artful Codger,

Are you saying that you couldn't get your "Print Music" to print?

Ask on the forum.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 09:20 PM

Insiders familiar with what goes on at Finale HQ told me they saw Finale demonstrated on Steve Jobs' NeXT computer back in 1992. But for some reason, they shelved it.

The NeXT operating system (NeXTSTEP) was actually a precursor of today's OS X. It was based on BSD 4.3 Unix and used PostScript for everything, including manipulating the display. So most of the Mac specific code for Finale has been around for a long time.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 04:27 AM

Well Nick, when I did RTFM it told me what I wanted to hear, so I bought it.

Unfortunately it does not do what it says in the FM. So Ring it again is not likely to help.

PrintMusic prints if your printer supports their fonts. If it doesn't you just get lots of little squares where the notes should be. Other similar (cheap) software offers a spooled graphic option, allowing you to export jpegs or tiffs, and I think that's a basic requirement, really.

Granted that keeping up to date with OSs can be a problem, but Make Music seem to have opted for a convoluted anti-piracy system which traps even honest injuns in its web - plus their support system is, frankly, unhelpful and slightly rude.

The forum would probably provide a work around, but this is a Trades Descriptions matter, so I'm dealing with the people who took me money.

Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 06:57 AM

I could be wrong but I think Sibelius is the only one that will output vector graphics (ie you could then edit your scores in a graphic-design program like Adobe Illustrator). Maybe one of the Finales does this too, but I'm not sure.

If that's true, Sibelius would rule the roost for me.

I'm using tabledit on a mac and it's doing my head in. It's a waste of money if you're a Mac user. It won't do triplets. So I'm stuffed.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:06 AM

I'm not looking to edit the scores in Illustrator or anything clever, just print them onto paper so that they look like they did on the screen.

Printmusic can't do that talking to my normal Epson. Which makes it, frankly, completely useless.

It also won't let you output in a graphic format, so that you can, say, import the score into a word document, or upload it to your website.

Ignoring the faff of making a PDF (which I didn't know about) the only solution is to make a grabbed image, which is pretty poor, really.

I'd ask for my money back if they'd listen to me.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Mark Clark
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 08:19 AM

Matt, You might want to try TuxGuitar. It's free, it's good, it handles triplets nicely, and it imports and exports to other file types including GuitarPro, MusicXML, LilyPond and TablEdit (input only). I think TablEdit will import at least some of those. TuxGuitar printed output isn't the greatest but its ability to export LilyPond and MusicXML means it's easy to use other tools for printing. But the TuxGuitar user interface is very nice.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: pavane
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:09 PM

Artful Codger "If well tested". As a system tester, I can say that to management, testing is an afterthought, and if deadlines are to be met, it is always testing that suffers. Testers are rarely allowed to do a proper job, because it is too expensive. And management usually cut short testing before it is properly signed off. The exceptions are rare.

Clearly, testing code properly takes as much effort as writing it, but is usually seen as an overhead. And a cause of delay.

There was an old Dilbert cartoon "It's your fault the system is late, you found too many bugs"

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: pavane
Date: 12 Oct 10 - 12:11 PM

My own software HARMONY can do a reasonable job of printing simple scores, but is certainly not in the same league as Sibelius and Finale, as there is not a team working full time on it, just me in the evenings!

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 01:41 AM

@ andrew: No, I can print scores fine. I just can't construct the proper notation. See previous messages.

@ pavane: As a developer, I know all about testing and you're right. Testing always gets short-shrifted and management's focus on automation limits what actually gets tested. Reliance on automated tests also allows bugs to pass undetected when the tests improperly pass a faulty condition (as not infrequently happens after a software or data revision). There is no substitute for an experienced developer, tester or user banging on the software directly.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:21 AM

Artful Codger,

It's something to do with the fonts.

These were from a quick search

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=6&m=304588

http://www.finalemusic.com/store/search.aspx?p=2

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 02:32 AM

And this one too.

Not sure if you're mac or not.

http://forum.makemusic.com/default.aspx?f=5&m=104389

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 05:16 AM

That problem with fonts relates to Snow Leopard - but the font handling has always been clumsy.

This from Make Music "It seems as if your printer does not have the memory to handle the multiple fonts, especially the PostScript fonts."

Fair enough, so - I suggested a number of times - as this is a 'cut down' for people who are not wanting to invest in a lot of expensive kit to print out their scores, why not offer a spooled graphic option, to jpeg or tiff or BMP? If Muscescore and the like can do it, surely a mid range package like PrintMusic should?

Silence.

And this bit of nonsense: "The only other factor that I can think of that can affect this registration is the addition or removal of hardware on a frequent basis (such as external storage devices or a wireless network card). Do you have anything like that on your computer?"

This is like Ford telling you that the reason the car won't start is that you have allowed a number of different people to use the rear seats!

Today I've had this from them: "I wish we had a solution for your version of PrintMusic, but when the Mac-Intel came out, we made sure our website and knowledge base pointed out that the current programs were not compatible*. We released a patch for Finale 2006, but not PrintMusic at the time (version 2007 of PrintMusic was the first compatible with Mac-Intel processors)."

*That is completely untrue. I'd only recently got the Intel and knowing there were issues with some softwares, was checking and double-checking every purchase I made.

The man James L there has obviously not read this from previous correspondence on 2006: ""Is your machine a new 'Intel' Mac? If you are running a new 'Intel'
chipset Mac, it is necessary to download and install PrintMusic
update 2006a from our website in order to run PrintMusic on these new
machines. PrintMusic will not allow you to register without this
update installed. In order to do this, go to FinaleMusic.com. Under
the 'Support Menu', choose 'Downloads', and use the pull-down menus
to choose the appropriate platforms and version. Then, select
'Update' from the pull-down menu that denotes 'Type'. This search
will return the update '2006a' for OS x. Download, and run this
update. You should have no trouble registering and using PrintMusic
after this update is performed."

Obviously I did that and still have the 6a in my dock. It did register and work.

For a short while.

Lenny Bruce

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 12:37 PM

Hi, Tom. I don't know anything about Macs, but I am sympathetic to your plight, since I edit and compose music myself (with a PC).

I suggest you get out of this thread, whose title is 'Sibelius vs Finale' and start a new thread tailored to reach Mac users. Call it something like "Tech: Print music MS with a Mac?"

You may get some good advice from Mac users.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 01:15 PM

Thanks Leenia - but I'm not here to get help any more. I now know what the problem is - Finale are a very poor company (dodgy programming, poor market fit and almost criminal customer service). I'm no longer interested in using their products, but I AM interested in warning others currently choosing between Sibelius and Finale to be very wary indeed of the latter (I've heard only praise for the former).

A company that can get things this badly wrong re the Intel Mac (and the many other non-mac specific issues mentioned above) is really not to be trusted - even on PC.

My chosen option has been to start with PTLE 8 (which has a good, if basic score function that swaps with step edit mode), then output at a late stage to some other programme possibly Musescore for lyrics etc.

I found out today (at a demo by top producer Phil Snell) that PTLE has a dedicated 'Export to Sibelius Function."

Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:03 PM

I use Finale on a Mac all the time. For me it's a great music notation program. Any questions have been answered promptly on the forum by some very helpful folks, who know heaps about music notation, not just how to work Finale. I look at the forum most days to pick up info.

Andrew

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 13 Oct 10 - 04:12 PM

I'm sure that's the case, Andrew, and no doubt some of those people are Finale employees, but bugs in the registration process involving serial numbers and passwords can only be dealt with by the company itself.

Technical problems are forgivable, dishonesty less so.

Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 Oct 10 - 04:06 AM

@ andrew: Again, I'm not the one having the print problems. And the notational difficulties I encounter have nothing to do with fonts--I'm still running 10.5 (Leopard) rather than 10.6 (Snow Leopard). They have to do with inadequate design for common cases.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Mark Clark
Date: 20 Oct 10 - 02:05 PM

Tootler and others interested in WINE.

WINE (Wine Is Not an Emulater) is a set of APIs that support running Windows apps under MAC OS X. This is much better in many respects than actually loading Windows onto your Mac as a dual boot OS.

Until recently, installing WINE required detailed familiarity with Unix, Mac OS X, MacPorts, etc. Now there is a simple and effective way to get WINE onto your Mac.

Check out the YouTube video How To Install Wine On Mac OS X (The Easy Way). The link to the software Web site (also included on the YouTube page) is http://winebottler.kronenberg.org/.

I've used this with great success. If I download a .exe file, I can just double-click it and it installs in WINE. Other operations are as easy. WINE doesn't seem to support USB yet but it's very functional.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 08:35 AM

I've been working with Musescore for a while now and it was all going well - good little program and good support via the online forum

BUT

Just hit an insurmountable snag.

It can only import dotted notes as ties - which makes lyric input a complete non-starter. As this is the only reason I'm using it (ProTools has no lyric input function) I'm having to look elsewhere.

Has anyone ever tried this one?

MidiIllustrator

(eek - too many i's, Is and l's in a row)

Or have any other suggestions?

Thanks

Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:18 AM

One thing that must be stressed. Digital information in notational form when played back, regardless of how sophisticated it is technically, doesn't replace the sound generated by an actual musical instrument.

You can use the "electronics" as an instrument in combination with real musical instruments however the caveat is, how do you make music with it that doesn't sound robotic?

As to the controversy, I have found Sibelius to be quite logical and can generate a lead sheet quickly. I miss the playback features of Encore but the graphics, the presentational clarity, the versatility to adapt to Logic Pro, the organic using which becomes a part of you, and the templates for scoring work for me over the clunky having to do numerous steps of Finale.

A lot of course, depends on the application but for a composer, the most important thing is to get the ideas in notation down quickly and as accurately as what you hear in your head. In this, Sibelius, for me, wins every time.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 11:35 AM

Indeed - but Sibelius is NOT cheap, and it would also be a steamhammer to crack a peanut. Having been a non-earning student etc. for 18 months I'm finding it hard to justify the cost.

I only need something for this one job, and even that is only to assist the players a little bit. They will mainly be working from audio recordings, and making their own adaptations as they see fit (because this is folk music).

I normally avoid writing music down as a matter of principle.

Tom

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Dec 10 - 06:21 PM

I'm a Linux not a Mac user, but I've been using Wine to run Windows programs for some time now. Wine is definitely better than a dual boot option as the programs run directly in the OS. I would guess this is also true of the Mac.

Wine was originally developed for Linux, but the Wine website sets out all the options for installing on a Mac here.

Noteworthy runs fine in Wine, though I have had problems with the print preview causing a program crash in the past. The problem largely seems to have been resolved in recent versions of Wine. I have been using Noteworthy for over 10 years now (it has been around for 16 years) and I find it meets all my needs. I was attracted to it in the first place because I found it very easy to learn and was able to produce results very quickly. It does have a slightly quirky interface which some do not like but it never gave me any problems and I quickly got used to it.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale vs. Musescore
From: GUEST,Slim_Chestnut
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 12:28 AM

Hi tom,

Musescore is an open source project and you can contribute your ideas and suggestions and bugs for its improvement!

If it will only import dotted values as tied notes then help the code writers fix it by communicating with them!

Just a suggestion.
Slim

Singer/Songwriter with Guitar....of course.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 04:31 AM

Tootler - thanks but I need to have open a number of Mac-specific programs at the same time as the Score software, so that's not an option.

Slim - Yes, thanks I knew that and have been in discussion with them. This issue's been kicked around for a while, but no-one's found a work-around yet, or looks likely to - soon enough for me anyway.

I'm trying to find something else that won't break the bank and imports midi files on a Mac.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: andrew e
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:52 AM

Tom, if you just want a one off, why don't you just find someone who will do it for you.
Even if you buy a program, it can take quite a while to learn how to use it.
Finale Notepad [USA $10]imports midis.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 05:58 AM

This is not something I can delegate - it's an interactive/virtuous cycle around research, lyric writing/adapting, recording, midi recording, score editing, printing etc.

See above for my opinion of Finale.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 07:36 AM

Oh and in case that sounds even more pompous than I usually am, when I say 'one off,' I don't mean just one song - this is a two hour folk opera/trad musical.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 03:31 PM

Tom,

The whole point of Wine is that you are effectively running your Windows program within your Mac OS, so you can have your Mac specific programs open at the same time. That's its great advantage over dual boot or virtual box. No need to switch OS. In effect, Wine intercepts the Windows calls and implements them within Mac OS or, in my case, Linux. As I write this (Firefox in Linux), I have Noteworthy open and playing back a file through the midi in Linux.

It can only import dotted notes as ties

Are you referring to importing from midi? I find similar things with Noteworthy. A dotted crotchet will be imported as a crotchet tied to a quaver if the note "crosses" the beat. It's a nuisance, but is fairly easily dealt with by deleting the quaver and editing the crotchet to delete the tie and add the dot - assuming that's the problem you are having.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 07:51 PM

Not the feature under discussion, but a few days back I checked MuseScore's web site. There is now a plug-in that will import ABC files. It doesn't do it perfectly. I tried it out with an ABC which had repeat bars. The score produced played all of the tune, but did it as a set of notes written, then written again, rather than with "repeat Section" in standard notation.
Quack!
Geoff.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:07 AM

Season's Greetings to everyone who has & is still contributing to this thread. I wish you all a very Happy New Year. May all your plans come to fruition...may the technology remain benign & fully functional & Tom, please let us know when & where the premiere of your Folk Opera will be.
            Kind Regards to All,
                                              Nigel.

Subject: RE: Tech: Sibelius vs Finale
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 24 Dec 10 - 11:36 AM

Well, if all goes to plan, Hamptonne Country Life Museumn, South Courtyard, Jersey (Old not New) Aug 26-31

Happy Christmas