Noah's Ark Trap (Nic Jones album)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:36 AM

Smokey.
I very much doubt that Bulmer has supplied the British Library with any Master tapes. He keeps them very close to home (Quite how he keeps them is a different matter!)
The Bright Phoebus release was a travesty. Luckily, not many people bought it..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 11:16 AM

Has anyone tried the British Library? An album of mine from 1973 was remastered and rereleased a couple of years ago by a European label and they borrowed the master tapes from the British Library to do it - I saw a photo of them. I was very surprised they'd been kept at all, but apparently it was standard practice, even with small labels.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkrolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:58 AM

For the sake of clarity I s'pose I should be more specific..

"in the absence of usable Bright Phoebus master tapes, perhaps a shite amateurish vinyl to CD transfer ????"

I'm aware many of the original pressing were flawed
[off centre hole ???].

But even if 'Bulmer' was using his best 'mint' LP to digitize for CD pressing
would that vocal distortion have been a flawed artifact of careless early 70's vinyl mastering.
Or even passed unnoticed at the time on the studio master tape ????

..or just some hopeless tool using a decent sounding distortion free LP
but overloading & clipping his digital recorder inputs
in too much careless haste to press up a batch of dodgy Cds
to cash in on the Radio 4 documentary.. !!!???

Lets just hope a pristine distortion free master tape is secretly archived at some mystery location
under professional storage conditions.....????????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 10:25 AM

"a shite amateurish vinyl transfer"

That may be my answer then.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM

The factory pressed silver "Bright Phoebus" CD that some of us were duped unaware into buying off Amazon
from I believe a Bulmer associated seller a few years ago
sounded ok on first quick impression,
but revealed horrible vocal distortion on decent gear and studio headphones.

a shite amateurish vinyl transfer ???
degraded master tape ????

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 06:50 AM

Sadly Will. I think you are right. The Master tapes of all these seminal artists might be long gone. Maybe thats why Bulmer isn't negotiating with anyone. Maybe he hasn't got any negotiating chips left in his locker.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:24 AM

(If they are still playable).

Indeed. I'm told that, in the case of old reel-to-reel tapes, one play through is sometimes all it takes to strip the surface from the tape - and therefore - to be safe - the transcription has to be captured on the first play.

Lord knows what condition the the Bulmer stash is in after all these years.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Gareth Merengue
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 05:21 AM

I don't think Bonzo3legs will apologise, he's far too busy enjoying his moment in the sun. Fair enough; some people don't have much going on in their lives so small cheap thrills are valuable.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:45 AM

Nigel...Couldn't agree more...But, he is entitled to his opinion. I'm with John Adams. (who was there) Bill Leader and John Gill produced some of the finest recordings of the revival in that era, and without their work, we wouldn't be able to hear it today.....(Oh....we can't...Wonder why?)
The problem isn't with Bonzo and his poor quality LP. The problem is with Dave Bulmer who will not negotiate with the original artists, and release the tapes (If they are still playable).
Is he waiting until they all die? For what purpose? What does he hope to achieve?
Bonzo is unimportant really. But he has raised the Celtic Music problem again. Which is a good thing.
Regards and Respect to you Nigel.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 04:02 AM

An apology from the perpetrator of this thread is long overdue.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:42 AM

Im listening to an LP - what else?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 06 Jul 11 - 02:40 AM

John...Thanks for that breakdown of the sessions (oh to have been there, you lucky bugger!) C12/414's..Thats posh, and expensive!
I think that you have put an end to Bonzos diatribe. No doubt he'll be back complaining about something else.
Considering (as you say) the equipment that Bill ahd Johnny Gill had at their disposal, between them, they made some magnificant, nay seminal recordings in that period, Bonzo has just got a naff pressing, that's all.
My one regret is that I never met John Gill. From what I understand, one of the finest engineers of recording acoustic music of his era.
As an aside, I'm pretty sure that Beatles used C12's as vocal mics, judging by the pictures I've seen. If it's good enough for Abbey Road!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: johnadams
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:34 PM

Will Fly wrote:

Just playing NAT at the moment - considering the circumstances in which it was recorded by Bill, with the equipment and in the environment available to him, it's wonderful. "Annachie Gordon, in style and tone, reminds me of recordings of Bert Jansch.

For reference:

Noah's Ark Trap was recorded in Bill's studio in the basement of his house in Greetland, West Yorkshire. I attended some of the sessions because my wife (Chris Coe) was one of the session musicians. I spent a lot of time in that studio along with my good friend the late John Gill who was a well respected recording engineer and Bill's sidekick for several years.

The album was recorded via a Raindirk desk on to a medium quality multi-track recorder (ie. not as good as an Ampex or a Scully but fine for the job - I can't recall the make at the moment) using Dolby A noise reduction.

The walls were undressed stone giving good dispersion and there was a medium amount of sound treatment. It wasn't a high end studio such as Livingstone or Strawberry but it did the job.

As I remember, the vocal mic was a brilliant old valve driven AKG C12 and the instruments were miked on AKG C414s but memory might not serve accurately.

I'm not sure what Bonzo3Legs is listening to or on but my copy seems to have adequate top end frequencies and the balance seems fine. I don't think the LP is loud compared with others because Bill didn't favour lots of compression which is what you need to get a loud vinyl cut. I would think that many discs of the time were the same - a wide dynamic range combined with a quieter cut.

It was fine middle range technology for its time and Bill's ability to use it is beyond question - he was a master recordist in his time. Describing him as an 'idiot' is just plain offensive. Others have said why in earlier posts.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 03:31 PM

Absolutely!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: pavane
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 02:07 PM

I also have one of Nic's John Peel sessions - copyright still belongs to the BBC, I believe. But his real strength in my opinion was as a live performer. I have a tape I recorded live in 1973 - his performance of Clyde Water was far more exciting than his recorded version - as was his Warlike lads of Russia.
Yes, the recording quality from a 1970's Cassette records was poor - but the gig is still electrifying.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Martin Spector-Visconti
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

.. precisely, Bonsai3rdleg..

Judging by their website and youtube audio demos,
quite a few respected boutique 'vintage guitar pedal' clone builders
are completely crap guitar players..

but they are very handy with an ex factory circuit schematic and a soldering iron.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM

"And the very fact that you mention an Aural Exciter anyway speaks volumes for your audio skills."

No it speaks volumes for my soldering skills!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:16 AM

Like others before me, I think there's a warmth in vinyl that's rarely achieved by digital recording. The first CDs, in particular, were extremely acid in tone, and many of the so-called remasterings from vinyl to CD were inferior to the originals.

Even old 78rpm records have a unique quality that can be ruined by poor remastering. One of the experts in this field - now, alas, gone from us - was jazz musician John R.T. Davies. Anything remastered by him is worth having.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 10:09 AM

I consigned my Aural Esciter to the great Ancient Equipment skip in the sky...Years ago...
Bonzo...Try keeping up...at least into the last part of the 20th century. There's a good chap.
Bonzo. I really don't get it. On the one hand you admire Nics Singing/Playing/Arrangements, and then you have a pop at the technology available at the time...It's a bit like saying, I love Joseph Taylors way of singing, but why didn't he record it digitally, instead of on a wax cylinder? the answer. Because it was the early 20th century, and that is all there was.
And the very fact that you mention an Aural Exciter anyway speaks volumes for your audio skills.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:54 AM

Yes - I wasn't comparing the music of Nic and Bert - just the recording quality. I've got most of the Leader/Trailer recordings, and there's certainly a family resemblance in the collected LPs.

I don't mind Bert - used to be quite a fan 40 years ago, not very much now - but I got seriously pissed off by the pretentious sleeve notes on the first album, written by one Keith de Groot (whoever he was).

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:50 AM

As are other things, Will. Last thing, or person, I would want to be reminded of when listening to Nic would be Bert Jansch, whose resolutely affected laid-backery I could never abide. Still, de gustibus 'n' all that...

~M~

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:42 AM

The Aphex Aural Exciter is something to be used sparingly, often to bring vocals forward in a mix. If you think you can improve NAT with one of those, I'd be interested to hear the result.

However, it's all in the individual's ears, isn't it...?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Brian Peters
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:35 AM

Aphex Aural Exiter can make old recordings a little "sharper"

Aaargh! I remember one of my old recordings getting severely damaged by one of those.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:32 AM

Just playing NAT at the moment - considering the circumstances in which it was recorded by Bill, with the equipment and in the environment available to him, it's wonderful. "Annachie Gordon, in style and tone, reminds me of recordings of Bert Jansch.

So, Bonzo - a straight disagreement with you. You think it's crap - I don't.

Wouldn't mind hearing some of your recordings, as you're obviously an expert. You can check out mine on YouTube.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 09:27 AM

Indeed, this is all becoming rather silly.

However, a touch of Aphex Aural Exiter can make old recordings a little "sharper" - I still have a board that I built back in the 1980s from the factory circuit.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 08:32 AM

I have copies (what few there are) of what remains of Nics Peel sessions.
Can't do anything with them. It's pitiful that so many tapes were thrown away. That was how it was.
Bonzo...Why on earth would I want to visit your house?
The very thought....Oh Never mind.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:06 AM

"But, then...as all your recordings are bootlegs anyway."

That is a rather sweeping assumption Ralphie. I don't remember you ever visiting our house in order to review our collection?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 07:00 AM

I do seem to have touched on a hallowed portal - and a touchy one at that!!!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: nickp
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:29 AM

Ralphie's the fount of knowledge about the BBC recordings I think. I'm sure he'll drop by before long.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:21 AM

For the record, I think all my old Leader/Trailer albums are great and I wouldn't want to change the way they sound in the slightest. 'Lord Of All I Behold' is a fantastic LP - tends to be overshadowed by its predecessor. Unfairly, I think.

I wish someone would release the several sessions Nic Jones did for John Peel in the early 70s. Maybe someone knows something about that.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:15 AM

There goes the neighbourhood.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 06:10 AM

"One Microphone, 10 feet away"? How do you explain how all the other musos got recorded ....IN STEREO" Let me explain...It's a new-fangled concept called "Multitracking" In it's infancy in the 70's, Not sure whether Bill had 4 or 8 track. Even so...
Noahs Ark Trap is brilliant. You've just a crap Vinyl LP.
Why not contact Mr Bulmer. He might send you the original tapes...(If they've changed their role from propping up a wonky coffee table...)
Bonzo, You really did get out of bed the wrong side this morning, didn't you?
OK. You're going to do a "Digitally Re-Mastered version" are you?
Woop-Di-Woo. Don't think I'll want a copy. But, then...as all your recordings are bootlegs anyway.
Bonzo. You are talking to people on here who have far more knowledge than you...If you want keep on digging....who are we to stop you.
Noah and Devil are the best two revival recordings I've ever heard.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 05:59 AM

I don't know Bill Leader or any of the other record label operators from the late 60s/early 70s but there's a bit of a quandary here (if that's the right word). Yes, loads of great albums by great artists would never have existed without his efforts and the efforts of people like him. But at the same time, there's no getting away from the fact that the sound quality isn't always what we would expect nowadays.

That's not necessariy a criticism - I often find modern digital recordings quite hard to listen to for any length of time. There's an awful lot of information being sent to the ear at once and it just gets tiring having to absorb it all. Plus there's too much reverb all over the place (thanks a bunch, Clannad!).

Going back to some of the albums I remember from the early 70s by Dick Gaughan, the Boys of the Lough, the Dransfields and so on, they do tend to sound a bit muffled compared to (for instance) 'A Handful Of Earth'. Another example is the difference in sound between Christy Moore's 'Prosperous' and the first Planxty LP. The Planxty LP was produced and engineered by people with a background in pop music and a lot more money seems to have been spent on it. You can just hear everything a lot better. As has been said before, Bill Leader worked with much more limited resources and can't have expected to make much money from any of the albums he produced. The wonder is that most of these albums got made at all.

I remember buying the first Boys of the Lough album when it came out and being rather disappointed with the sound quality compared to the first Planxty album (which appeared a few months earlier). Didn't make the music any less good but it took a while for me to get used to the sound of it and appreciate the music properly. Now I wouldn't part with it for anything.

Of course, if you were 16 in 1973 anything that didn't sound like 'Dark Side Of The Moon' was a dodgy recording.

As for 'digitally remastering' your copy of the 'Noah's Ark Trap', I'm not sure I'd bother. The sound of these albums is as much a part of our memories of these artists and their music as the music itself. It is what it is and I don't see any reason to mess with it - unless you want it to sound like Paolo Nuitini.

Can't help wondering if all this stuff about 'top end clarity' says more about our ears as we all get older.

At the risk of tempting fate, it's nice that no-one's mentioned the 'B-' word yet....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jul 11 - 05:01 AM

Played our copy of Nic Jones over breakfast, which sounds like it was recorded with one mic placed about 10 feet away. For a 40 year old LP it's in very good condition though and hardly played so I'll be attempting to create a digitally remastered copy more to my liking.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: pavane
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 04:49 PM

I don't think the residents of "Mons Calpe" aka Jebel Tarik, would agree they were in Spain. The Gibraltarians have been fighting against that for a LONG time.

Afraid my copies of Nic Jones and Ballads & Songs, bought when newly released, are well-worn. But still brilliant.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:57 PM

"Well done Bonzo. "Light the blue touch paper" springs to mind."

I'm not quite sure whose side you are on here?

Is that Calpe in Spain?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Guest - CalpeMike
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 10:10 AM

Well done Bonzo. "Light the blue touch paper" springs to mind.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Brian Peters
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 06:46 AM

'Noah's Ark Trap' was one of my favourite folk albums, but Bonzo is not entirely wrong in saying that the production values were different to what was around then, never mind now. It's some time since I listened to his earlier LPs 'Ballads & Songs' and 'Nic Jones', but from memory they had a much harder sound than 'Noah's Ark Trap'. 'Penguin Eggs' is certainly sharper than NAT to my ears.

However, it's the very warm fuzziness of the sound on NAT that - together with the track segues Ralphie was talking about - gives that album it's uniquely hypnotic quality. It's still the best of Nic albums for me, and if I were to hear a remastered version with more top end and clarity (very unlikely for reasons much discussed previously!), I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy it half as much.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:21 AM

···Ever since home record players started sprouting more and more knobs & switches and glowing LED's,every know-all hi-fi enthusiast thinks he's the world's greatest undiscovered record producer..
So then Bonsai3rdleg, how about some audio links to your recorded masterpieces ???===
,,,,
Tho I have opposed much of what Bonzo said, I can't feel this is quite a knockdown argument, Martin SV. Goes back to the old "you can't be a critic if you can't do it yourself" argument on which we have had so many threads.

As the great Dr Johnson put it ""You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables."
Boswell: Life

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 11:35 PM

Well, my well played LP is a bit crackly nowadays, but stands up surprisingly well. And the arrangements and seques are outstanding. I think it was the first time on a Folk LP that anyone had tried that technique. It was Nics idea, I think, but Bill had the skills to do the edits. Same technique was used in places on Devil To A Stranger.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Martin Spector-Visconti
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 06:30 PM

It's a laugh innit ?

Ever since home record players started sprouting more and more knobs & switches and glowing LED's,
every know-all hi-fi enthusiast thinks he's the world's greatest undiscovered record producer..

So then Bonsai3rdleg, how about some audio links to your recorded masterpieces ???

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: gnomad
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 06:18 PM

Thank you, ~Michael~, for the background info on the circumstances of this recording. I had a feeling something like that had gone on, but lacked the specific details.

I only get to hear a digital copy (untweaked) of a well-worn original of this LP, it may lack something in the recording but it is still a damn good listen.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 05:30 PM

Where did you get a new Bill Leader recording? Time travel?
Or is it a pirated version in which case quality might have suffered?
I'm just curious to know where to obtain new old recordings - mine are all 40 plus years old.
Robyn

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 04:56 PM

"Just remember it was recorded about 40 years ago - the technology was probably the best for the early 70s. Plus the record will have had many playings. Maybe it's your stylus that's at fault???
Robyn"

No, new stylus, played LP maybe twice since buying it new. Have you heard any Les Paul recordings from the 40s and 50s??

I've heard what a complete arsehole Bulmer is, but that is another matter.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Little Robyn
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 04:26 PM

Just remember it was recorded about 40 years ago - the technology was probably the best for the early 70s. Plus the record will have had many playings. Maybe it's your stylus that's at fault???
Robyn

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 03:51 PM

Bonzo..
your insults are astounding.
Do a bit of reseach at Rod Sradlins Musical Traditions site...And you will find 4 or 5 pages of LPs that Bill produced during his career.
Sadly, a lot of the LP's at the time were produced during a world wide shortge of vinyl...(remember the thin very flexible records of the time?) Probably made of old recycled car tyres!
I can only agree with others about Bills skills as an engineer/producer. You've just got a crap pressing...
If you are really that bothered...You take on Dave Bulmer...many have tried, none have succeeded.
I'd be interested to see how you get on.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 01:36 PM

My latest CD consists mostly of field recordings and the quality is not great. On top of that, I was beginning to lose my voice and that didn't help either.
Sometimes you just have to settle for you can get, and pretty good is better than nothing.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 01:24 PM

Sorry ~~ they say green is a soothing colour, don't they? ~ It's why theatres had green rooms for the cast to relax in.

Drift - drift - you are drifting off to sleeeeeppp...

zzzzzzzz

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 01:01 PM

Yes I can see that now - the red is a bit hard on the eyes for a Sunday!

One thing I may be forgetting is that perhaps accoustic guitars were not close miked at that time, and didn't necessarily have new strings for a recording session, as would have been more the case by the time Penguin Eggs was recorded.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 12:43 PM

In interests of accuracy, that one was what HTML calls 'brown': this one is red.

Hope you enjoy Nic Jones more. I used to love all those early records of Nic's on Bill's label, and didn't get too twitchy about the recording quality.

~M~