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how is Nic Jones

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GUEST 18 Apr 02 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,kevinhowcroft@hotmail.com 18 Apr 02 - 04:43 AM
Pete Jennings 18 Apr 02 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,LesB (UK) 18 Apr 02 - 02:06 PM
Ralphie 18 Apr 02 - 09:10 PM
Ralphie 18 Apr 02 - 09:16 PM
GUEST,Ed Silberman 20 Apr 02 - 05:06 PM
Jeri 20 Apr 02 - 10:02 PM
Ralphie 22 Apr 02 - 01:27 PM
sledge 22 Apr 02 - 01:33 PM
Ralphie 22 Apr 02 - 01:43 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 22 Apr 02 - 01:49 PM
Ralphie 23 Apr 02 - 11:38 AM
Jeanie 23 Apr 02 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 23 Apr 02 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Nerd 23 Apr 02 - 03:09 PM
GUEST,greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 03:38 PM
GUEST,ed silberman 23 Apr 02 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 23 Apr 02 - 04:46 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 04:57 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 23 Apr 02 - 05:03 PM
John Routledge 23 Apr 02 - 05:17 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 02 - 05:20 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 05:26 PM
GUEST 23 Apr 02 - 05:39 PM
Jeri 23 Apr 02 - 06:15 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 07:09 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 07:32 PM
Noreen 23 Apr 02 - 07:49 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 23 Apr 02 - 07:49 PM
Jeri 23 Apr 02 - 09:09 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 09:31 PM
greg stephens 23 Apr 02 - 09:46 PM
sledge 24 Apr 02 - 02:57 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Apr 02 - 08:10 AM
GUEST 24 Apr 02 - 10:29 AM
English Jon 24 Apr 02 - 11:12 AM
GUEST,Nerd 24 Apr 02 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 24 Apr 02 - 09:01 PM
JohnL 25 Apr 02 - 11:53 AM
GUEST,Nerd 25 Apr 02 - 11:59 AM
Ralphie 25 Apr 02 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 25 Apr 02 - 12:14 PM
Ralphie 25 Apr 02 - 12:22 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 25 Apr 02 - 12:28 PM
GUEST,Nerd 25 Apr 02 - 12:33 PM
Ralphie 25 Apr 02 - 12:39 PM
Ralphie 25 Apr 02 - 12:47 PM
GUEST,Nerd 25 Apr 02 - 12:53 PM
Ralphie 25 Apr 02 - 01:43 PM
RolyH 25 Apr 02 - 03:02 PM
John Routledge 25 Apr 02 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 25 Apr 02 - 06:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM
Malcolm Douglas 25 Apr 02 - 08:37 PM
GUEST 26 Apr 02 - 07:30 AM
GUEST 26 Apr 02 - 09:21 AM
GUEST,Nerd (member at work) 26 Apr 02 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,JohnB 26 Apr 02 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Sondra Willis 26 Apr 02 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Truthtroller 26 Apr 02 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,sid the ferret 24 Mar 04 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 24 Mar 04 - 04:13 PM
GUEST,Boab 25 Mar 04 - 03:01 AM
GUEST,Sean Gaston 21 May 04 - 02:47 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 21 May 04 - 12:12 PM
Flatfoot 06 Feb 08 - 12:59 PM
Mr Happy 07 Feb 08 - 06:49 AM
GUEST,Volgadon 07 Feb 08 - 07:37 AM
GUEST,irishenglish 07 Feb 08 - 10:35 AM
HipflaskAndy 07 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM
HipflaskAndy 07 Feb 08 - 11:28 AM
BusyBee Paul 07 Feb 08 - 07:15 PM
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Subject: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 02:51 AM

Lookin for information about Nic Jones' condition? I haventheard anything for years. No one talks about it anymore. i've even met people who know his recodings but never even heard about his accident! I'm still concerned after all these years.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,kevinhowcroft@hotmail.com
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 04:43 AM

Last year at Sidmouth, during Shirley Collins talks about her early years travelling with Alan Lomax recording in the states she suddenly turned round and ran towards rhe window which was open as it was very hot. She embraced a rather drawn looking but happy man looking in the side window, and seemed overjoyed to be with him. I couldnt work out who he was, but you will guess that it was Nic, one of my heroes, so he is still trolling around, but presumably unable to play to previous standards for whatever reasons. I was disturbed by the recent art work on his double CD Unearthed by tony hall, and wondered if he regarded it as a bit of a joke, I certainly dont like the implications of it, but what do I know?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 10:20 AM

Some relatively recent info on Nic can be found on www.philbeer.co.uk.

Pete


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,LesB (UK)
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 02:06 PM

Hi Thanks for the Phil Beer link. An interesting site. Les


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 09:10 PM

To set the record straight.....And to avoid unnecessary digging through the Mudcat archives....
Nic, insisted that the Tony Hall cartoon of his (dis) interring, be the front cover of "Unearthed"...He fell about laughing when he first saw it!!...
Gonna argue with that?....I don't think so....!
The threads on this site concerning Nic, and his recent activities are too numerous to list, and I'm not going to start another one, but.....Do a search, and all will be revealed....Rest assured, he was hale and hearty when I spoke to him last week.
Ralph... (Prod "Unearthed")


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 18 Apr 02 - 09:16 PM

Re - Reading the original "GUEST" message, why do I get the feeling that I've been HAD by a troll...
If not, I apologise, If I have........Ah Well, so it goes, at least it keeps the interest in Nic alive...So, bit of a backfire then...!
Cheers Ralphie


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ed Silberman
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 05:06 PM

I only log on to Mudcat as a guest very irregularly so if I performed some ettiquette slip pleaase pardon me. I assure that my request for an update on Nic Jone' condition was sincere and can be taken on face value. Thank you to all who answered with good info and/or where to get good info. Sorry I forgot to include my name when I made my inquiry.

Ed Silberman


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Apr 02 - 10:02 PM

I FINALLY bought "Unearthed" from Camsco at the NEFFA festival today and listened all the way home. Wonderful CD!! I've heard a cut or two by Nic Jones from the Folk Roots/fRoots compilation CDs. Other than those, this is my first experience hearing Nic, and I've been missing a LOT.

The cover cartoon IS icky, but knowing Nic wanted it makes a big difference. Did the cartoon come about because of the CD title, or was it the other way around? Or coincidence?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:27 PM

Ed....Worry not...and please accept my apologies for any offence.
None intended I assure you.
There have been a few anonymous Guests making trouble recently, and I 'm probably a bit oversensitive..Sorry!
And Jeri.... The cartoon spawned the title..Tony wasn't given any orders regarding the cartoon, just the basic info that we were recycling old tapes....It all came out of his warped imagination !!!
By the way the dog is actually a pretty good likeness of Nics faithful hound, Harry
All the best and sorry again for any misunderstanding
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: sledge
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:33 PM

There was report on the Fairport Convention list I think that said Nic had played a gig recently with his Son, his Son did most of the work but Nic was able to contribute significantly to what was described as an enjoyable evening, the first of many more we hope.

Sledge


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:43 PM

Sledge...absolutely true...
Joe (Nics son) is a damn fine guitarist...(Left handed too), and I think it was a Pete & Chris Coe gig up north somewhere...missed it meself, bugger!
I don't think it will become a regular gig, but, I know he really enjoyed himself...He's still writng songs, so, maybe, one day....!!?
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 01:49 PM

I too had been looking forward to the release of "Unearthed" but when I saw the cover, I was so put off by it, I decided not to buy it. He may be a good musician, but I don't think he is a very compassionate or sensitive human being.

Nic Jones and Tony Hall don't speak for the disabled community I am proud to be part of, thank goodness.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 11:38 AM

Sondra
It was never Nics intention to annoy people with disabilities....God knows, he's been living with his for 20 years.
It was actually a bit of a side swipe at the people who've denied him his just rewards for far too long.
Again, apologies if you are offended by the sleeve.
But, If you listen to the record, I'm sure you'll be touched by Nics humanity.
Best Wishes
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Jeanie
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:13 PM

It's so good that a new audience is finding Nic Jones through that CD - *and* to hear that he's been performing live with his son. I was lucky enough to hear him loads of times, as a regular at "The Castle" - Brentwood Folk Club - in the late sixties and early seventies. Brilliant. Don't know if you ever look in to Mudcat, Nic and Julia, but if you do, I was one of that terrible gang who used to sit on top of the piano in the corner...


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 12:22 PM

I have heard Nic's music. It still doesn't change my opinion of the cover art on the latest CD.

Being disabled doesn't mean you have compassion and decency, any more than being a musician means you have compassion and decency. A tiny minority of disabled people do, at times, wish to draw attention to themselves from the able bodied communities, and offend and alienate other disabled people in the process, which is what I believe he has done here. He is getting a cheap laugh at the expense of disabled people, IMO.

I stand by what I said. My opinion of Nic Jones plummeted when I saw the cover of Unearthed. You can try and sanitize the cover art all you want, but I'm not buying it anymore than I'm buying your suggestion that Nic's humanity is demonstrated in his music. I disagree on both counts.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:09 PM

Sondra,

I'm sure we're all sorry that Tony Hall's cover "art" offended you, and God knows I thought it was in poor taste too, but isn't humor a very subjective thing? Should we make assumptions about Nic's value as a person because he did the equivalent of telling an offensive joke?

Speaking up for Nic, what Ralphie is alluding to is that Nic's recordings have been "buried" in record company vaults for years which, together with his disability, "killed" him as a recording artist. The cover is alluding to that situation more than to his disability per se.

Ralphie, who is Nic's friend, is far more qualified to judge his humanity than either you or I, but I for one think his humanity IS demonstrated in his music. The loving way he selected, arranged and sang old songs, the slight chuckle in his voice during humorous passages, and the way his guitar creates the perfect mood for each song, suggest to me a man of great sympathy and artistic vision. The cartoon proves he has a sick sense of humor, too. Remember, our imperfections are part of what makes us human, too.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 03:38 PM

I dont normally get involved in the more controversial aspects of Mudcat, but I have to say that that Sondra Willis' personal attack on Nic Jones, given what the poor man's been through, is downright shameful.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,ed silberman
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:17 PM

Ralphie - Thank you for the apology and claification. A buddy of mine clued me in to the "trolling" phenomenom on Mudcat. I think I can understand why you might be, to use you word, oversensitive. Has it really been twenty years? In any case it's good to learn that Jones has at least some degree of health and functionality. May that continue to be so and increasingly so. Thank you all for helpful responses.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:46 PM

If anyone here cares to see what I view as more appropriate art representing the disabled community, please have a look at this website, which is a gallery of art created by disabled artists:

www.vsarts.org/gallery/exhibits/disability/index.html

I have not personally attacked Nic Jones. He has made it perfectly clear by his choice of cover art, that he wishes to thumb his nose at the disabled community. THAT is downright shameful, no matter what the man has been through.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 04:57 PM

You accuse Nic Jones of "getting a cheap laugh at the expense of disabled people". Then you claim not to have personally attacked him. I dont think we have a common language to discuss this rationally.Bye.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:03 PM

Nerd,

I would say yes, some of us would judge the character of a person who has done what Nic Jones has done with this CD, and that it is not unreasonable to do so.

I am aware of the history of Nic's unfortunate accident and his subsequent troubles with Celtic Music. None of that excuses the cover art, IMO. Rather, it reveals something about the man I was shocked to discover, particularly in light of his disability.

You seem to be saying I have no right to judge someone I don't know personally. If this were not a public figure, I would agree. However, Nic Jones is a well known and highly regarded figure in the English folk scene. In that regard, I do have a right to judge his actions--particularly an action so blatant and, in my view, offensive.

I had always enjoyed Nic's music. However, my opinion of him as an artist and a man plummeted when I saw the cover art. I realize others will have different opinions, and that they are as free to express theirs as I am mine.

As I said earlier, I stand by my criticism of the artist and the man for his choice of cover art. Truth, like beauty and humor, is in the eye of the beholder. I have spoken the truth as I see it. The cover art on this CD was bound to be commented upon because of it's shocking nature. Are we not to express our opinions on it, unless they are either positive or supportive of Nic Jones?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: John Routledge
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:17 PM

The CD is a triumph. The cover unfortunately isn't.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:20 PM

Greg,

There is a common language with which we can rationally discuss controversial opinions: the language of civility, which tolerates other people's points of view and opinions.

Perhaps that language is foreign to your worldview?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:26 PM

I think I was being civil, GUEST. And I've put my real name to my posting. But I am allowed to register objections to personal insults aren't I? This is a serious topic in which I have an interest. This is a discussion forum, not an insult competition.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 05:39 PM

I think you should qualify your opinion as just that, Greg.

Sondra voiced a strong opinion about Nic Jones' CD, and has (more or less) called it a legitimate criticism. It is your opinion that her criticism isn't legitimate, but an insult. I don't see any intention to insult Nic in her posts, but that's me. I see her moral outrage being expressed. There is a distinct difference, in my humble opinion.

You are posting your opinions, just as Sondra is, and yours is no more true or right than hers. Of course you have a right to register objections to personal insults. But I think you need to be on more steady ground about what constitutes legitimate criticism, and what constitutes a personal insult.

Others have agreed with Sondra that the cover art is offensive. No one else is suggesting that her saying that should be interpreted as a personal insult.

I think we all agree it is a serious topic, and I expect that anyone reading this thread has an interest in it of one sort or another. And an opinion on it too. ;-)


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 06:15 PM

Jeez - it's a troll. I thought it was amusing when I read it last night.

The picture on the cover is a pretty gross cartoon of a dismembered dead guy. This insults disabled people specifically? I really never considered the living dead to be disabled people, but I guess it makes sense. They can't eat, drink, inhale anything and I'll bet it's tough for them to get a drivers license. Registering to vote doesn't seem to be a problem in many places, though. In any case, the I can see that the cartoon would be very offensive to the undead. Ralphie, I think the only decent thing is to apoligise to all living dead people everywhere.

I'm enjoying the music on the CD very much. I've heard so much about Nic and this is my first opportunity to hear so much of him. I can hear the influences on other people's styles, and I simply like his singing and playing. It's also timeless. There's nothing about the songs or arrangements that wouldn't be fresh today.

Thanks, Ralphie.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:09 PM

I think accusing someone of "getting a cheap laugh at the expense of disabled people" is a personal insult. It is a particularly devastating insult when the person you are accusing is sufferng from an an appalling disability. It may be a justified insult, it may not be. That is your opinion.You are entitled to it. My opinion is that you are total shit, and a gutless little shit at that, because you aren't even prepared to sign your nasty little letters.I am aware the general Mudcat line is to ignore the squalid little pondlife that likes to hang around our pages. I agree. But sometimes in life, you cut loose. Peace. Get some help. But not from me tonight.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:32 PM

I've j ust had a cup of coffee and I realise I've been had, Someones been playing with us(me mainly) and and I never saw it. I'm a complete newcomer to these discussion things and I never understood what peple meant about trolls and stuff. I remembered someone said recently "Why do nic jones threads generate acrimony?". OK I was caught. There aint no disabled "Sondra Willis", there aint no GUEST spouting platitudes. Theres just someone playing games. Iwas caught, Weird, isnt it?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Noreen
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:49 PM

Click here and scroll down to see the controversial cover artwork.

I think it's pretty ghoulish myself, but, given that Nic likes it, it's his choice! I certainly don't see how anyone can make value judgements on a person by judging the artwork on their CD covers. Sheesh


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 07:49 PM

I did sign my name, Greg.

If you can explain how expressing my opinion is trolling, but you expressing yours isn't, I would be most grateful, Jeri.

Several people here have said they find the cover art to this CD is in poor taste. Does that make John Routledge, Nerd, and kevinhowcroft trolls too?

We have now seen two people posting here referred to as trolls, myself and Ed Silberman. While I understand that one could easily presume the original guest was trolling when they started the thread, the discussion about the cover art has nothing to do with that original post.

I think maybe some of you need to step back a bit, and take a few deep breaths. There is a definite difference of opinion here. Some of us find the cover art to be in poor taste and offensive, others don't.

We should be able to voice our opinions without the entire discussion disintegrating into taunting those with whom they disagree trolls, a total shit, or a gutless little shit. Or suggest that the only people with a right to be insulted by the cover art are the undead.

I can appreciate that people are thankful for the music found on the CD, and I certainly don't begrudge anyone their music listening pleasure. But that doesn't mean I, or anyone else should be subjected to this kind of abuse for stating an opinion on what is clearly a pretty controversial piece of cover art.

It has certainly been made clear in this thread that some here truly aren't capable of rational discussion of controversial issues where Nic Jones is concerned. Perhaps that is precisely what Nic intended.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:09 PM

I should have bought Penguin Eggs while I was at it.

One thing I really like about Unearthed is that, because the songs were (I believe) taped from live performances and sessions, the arrangements are simple. I don't mean that Nic's guitar playing is simple - no way - just that often when a studio recording is made, there are more instruments and fancier arrangements. There ARE other people playing on Unearthed, but you can't see the machinery behind the songs like you can with some recordings, even great ones.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:31 PM

my over the top comments were directed to un-named Guest. I regret them, in so far as I shouldn't have risen to the bait. All the sentiments I expressed, I stand by.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 09:46 PM

Intriguing that I directed some intemperate remarks to an anonymous GUEST, and another guest,Sondra Willis replies to me as if they were directed at her(??). Pretty good trolling and I fell for it, but I think we are not dealing with quite as many different people as us naive types might have imagined.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: sledge
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 02:57 AM

Could it be that Sondra is a little Over sensitive. The picture as far as I can see shows a broken and discarded body in Cartoon form. This surely reflects the way Nic was looked at for so long following his accident, unable to play, to perform until now and only kept in the public by the efforts of friends.

Sledge


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 08:10 AM

I haven't seen the actual album yet, so all I've seen is that tiny thumbnail on the site to which Noreen gave us a link.

Reading through the thread, it sounds to me that Sondra Wills is probably a real person who does see this as an example of someone being insulting to people with disabilities, and is therefore hopping mad. (The alternative way of reading her posts is that this is just another case of someone cynically stirring the shit, perhaps the same someone as GUEST. Unfortunately there are people around who play those kind of mind games; the fact that, while there is a Mudcat member called Sondra Wallace, there isn't one called Sondra Willis feeds into that kind of paranoia.)

I wholly go along with the idea that genuine insults to people with disabilities need to be dealt with forcefully. But I think there's a serious misunderstanding here.

What I see looking at that picture is something totally different. It's Nic saying "I'm not dead yet folks - Up Yours, Dave Bulmer and Co who've been trying to bury me". And the term "Unearthed" is an echo of the TV music term "Unplugged".

The thing is, it's really true that people in different parts of the world and different cultures really do see things differently.

"Sondra", on the face of it anyway, sees an insult to people with disabilities, and reacts ferociously; in my view inappropriately so. Greg sees an attack on an individual who doesn't in any way deserve to be attacked, and also reacts ferociously.

The difference is that "Sondra" was reading insults to people with disabilities into a cartoon which very likely had no such intention. Greg is seeing a personal attack in something which is hard to read as anything other than a personal attack.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 10:29 AM

I understand why people supporting Nic's choice on the cover art to his CD are focusing solely on Sondra Willis' opinions, while at the same time, ignoring those of John Routledge, Nerd, and kevinhowcroft. It is easy to ignore those who have expressed the same concerns with the cover art Sondra has, because they have expressed those concerns without the moral outrage Sondra has expressed. So be it, each to their own, and all that.

Some here feel the cover art is tasteless and offensive, and at least one person feels it offends some in the disabled community. Others seem to feel the cover art is innocuous and not offensive to them personally, and so feel that any criticism of Nic Jones on this point is a personal attack which is not to be tolerated/taken seriously, because of his disability.

Since there likely will never be any agreement between the two sides, in the interest of keeping the peace, perhaps we should all just agree to disagree, and let the matter drop.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: English Jon
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 11:12 AM

Play nicely children.

Buy the album anyway, and if you don't like the artwork, throw the cover away. Problem solved.

EJ


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 03:14 PM

McGrath, thank you!

Sondra, all I was saying was that senses of humor are not always easy to fathom. There are ethnic people who are amused by certain types of ethnic humor, and others who are offended by it. You have every right to be offended, but I think it goes a little far to have your opinion of someone plummet because your sense of humor doesn't agree with theirs. As a Jewish person, I would not immediately judge and condemn another Jew who told a Jewish joke, even if I didn't like the joke.

Besides this, there are other explanations for the cover art, as I and others have pointed out, that have nothing at all to do with disability but with Nic's situation vis a vis recordings. Indeed, the practice of holding on to the rights of an artist's recordings and not allowing them to release records is often referred to by musicians as "burying" the artist. I just don't think disability was foremost in anyone's mind when the gross joke was thought up.

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse, folks, but I really think the joke is being misunderstood, and that is at the basis of the offense.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 24 Apr 02 - 09:01 PM

Nerd,

I accept your apology for beating the dead horse.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: JohnL
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:53 AM

I too can't see how this cover can be seen as in any way related to disability. Perhaps Sondra can explain clearly how she reads the image in this way?

I always took it to be a shop mannikin figure of Nic showing his hidden material. and the dog does look to be burying rather than unearthing , but where is the disability aspect?

I personally don't like the cover because it is a rather feeble idea, a bit like those joke birthday cards which are funny for about 2 seconds and reading it is a corpse is a bit unsettling. On an album which is going to be around for ever something a bit more interesting would be in better keeping.

However it is a GREAT album and after a week or two most people would become oblivious to the cover art. Don't let it put you off!


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 11:59 AM

Sondra,

I'm just surprised you don't chastise me for my suggestion of cruelty to (dead) animals. After all, there's nothing funny about that, either...


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:04 PM

Blimey !!!
You go away for three days, and this happens.!
Firstly, Sondra. I utterly respect your views re the sleeve cartoon. As other people have noticed, there are great parallels between the cartoon, and the situation that Nic has found himself in over the last 20 years, and although Tony Hall was given no brief except "Come up with a cover"
All of us involved, felt that it was entirely appropriate to the concept of the CD...(ie re-releasing lost tapes, etc, hence the spools of tape poking out of his body,)
The only part of the cartoon that provoked any discussion at all, was....Should he be holding a plectrum??
Originally, one of the ideas for the title was "Dug Up!!"
So be grateful that we stayed grammatical at least.
As English Jon says.....Enjoy the music.......paper over the sleeve
Again sorry for any offence.....maybe we should have stuck with the fluffy bunny wunnies...
Tea break over, back on your heads
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:14 PM

Flogging a dead horse with great earnestness?

I agree with the guest who suggests we just let this drop. It is clear certain conflicting opinions about Nic Jones' CD are not going to be resolved in Mudcat because there is such a lack of objectivity on the part of his fans. I can live with that.

Now really everyone, how about you just drop it?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:22 PM

JonL......Exactly!!
Everyone involved in the project (Except the pressing plant!) gave freely of their time and talents in whatever field they were expert in. Unless a sleeve is magnificent (discuss!) Most people select what they want to hear by looking at the spine labels of their collection...not the front cover.
Glad you like the album, and, at this moment we don't know what Harry (the Dog) is actually intending...His agent won't answer our calls!
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:28 PM

Ralphie,

I see you aren't willing to let it drop, and would rather antagonize the situation.

Do we really need to discuss the cover further, or are you just interested in running us dissenters out of town on a rail?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:33 PM

We'd let it drop, Sondra, but every time you say anything, you have to play the blame game. For example, I would accept, "certain conflicting opinions about Nic Jones' CD are not going to be resolved in Mudcat" but why do you have to add "because there is such a lack of objectivity on the part of his fans?" Isn't your own lack of objectivity equally at fault?

For the record, Sondra, you also lack objectivity in this matter. So does everybody in the matter of artistic taste. It's not your fault, nor is it the fault of rabid Nic Jones fans who think he can do no wrong (and by the way, I do not fit this description).

Please, let's leave it at "we disagree, and it's nobody's fault."


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:39 PM

Guest Sondra......No, No, No....lets keep it going...think of the sales!!
Guest Nerd....Thanks for the support...I'll wear it always
Feeling mildly amused now...Ralphie


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:47 PM

Sorry If I was slightly facetious in that last message
Look people, I'm not a rabid anything...Why not go after the real culprits in this affair, and leave a poor old cripple who is trying to earn an honest crust alone? EH??
Ralph......Not amused anymore


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Subject: sorry, Ralphie!
From: GUEST,Nerd
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 12:53 PM

Ralphie,

As they say in my neighborhood, "my bad." I didn't mean to suggest anyone was a rabid anything. I was somewhat facetiously characterizing Sondra's apparent opinion of me. But it was my wording, not Sondra's, so don't blame her for it, either.

Perhaps Harry is a rabid fan, though. That might explain his agent's silence :-)


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Ralphie
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 01:43 PM

Nerd. No offence taken......But when I see the real injustice, as visited upon Nic by certain companies (See threads passim) I don't think it unreasonable for the family to comment on the situation from the standpoint of one who cannot fight in any other way
And, to do so, with a degree of humour, is the mark of a caring person....(Point Made methinks)
Please, no more comments re the disabled......
They have feelongs too.
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: RolyH
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 03:02 PM

I took the cover out and replaced it with one from 'The Nolans Greatest Hits'So everything is alright now.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: John Routledge
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 03:25 PM

Roly - you are obviously a man of impeccable taste.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:19 PM

Nerd,

I really am trying to be reasonable here. The lack of objectivity on the part of Nic's fans is something, as Ralphie suggests, one must "see threads passim" to understand. I am not suggesting that people in this thread are being particularly shrill--yet--but they have been in the past. I really would like to see this whole conversation dropped, before we have to all be defused and defanged. Threads about Nic Jones have a history of blowing up in people's faces in Mudcat. I should have couched my statement as "...because I believe his fans lack objectivity" and taken ownership of the statement. I do apologize for that.

That said, I am certainly dropping the subject, because I'm becoming just as guilty of carrying it on by coming back in to clarify, obfuscate, and scold, and I don't want to play bad cop here.

Best wishes to all.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 25 Apr 02 - 08:37 PM

I don't really see any attempt to clarify or to be reasonable or objective in your posts, "Sondra", just as I don't see any "blowing up in people's faces" in previous threads relating to Nic, except perhaps in a few posts from anonymous correspondents who would like to create that impression. What I do see, however, is a recognisable posting style; you have contributed to some of those threads under another name, haven't you? At present, you just look like the perennial troublemaker who assumes a new persona as circumstances require, usually pretending to be in some fashion a "victim", in order to give yourself spurious authority and defuse possible criticism. This is a typical trolling technique, as you obviously know. If you are serious about dropping the matter, then do so, now; but you do so love to have the last word, don't you?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 07:30 AM

Some people don't have much food on their table, but they got a lot of forks and knives, and they've gotta cut something...

(You can play spot the quote if you like)

The PC nonsense will no doubt pass one day. Back in the past, when the American language was being censored, (e.g. chickadees instead of titmice), there was a SERIOUS proposal that the guy who steers a rowing boat should be called a roosterswain, not a coxswain.

This is reflected today in the idiocy of those who thought the word Manager should be replaced (by personager?) even though it has nothing to do with MAN.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 09:21 AM

Take the names off the posts Malcolm, and I think you'll find the "recognisable posting style" fits most people/posts in Mudcat.

I've always been amused by the silliness of the exercise of some desperate members to project their personal fantasies onto the posts of guests they can only imagine as having a single face. But then, some people do have trouble with the ambiguities and uncertainties of life. There just seems to be an unusually large concentration of them involved in the folk scene.

Last wording it over to someone else now...


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Nerd (member at work)
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:34 PM

Okay, damn me for going on, but...

Sondra,

isn't saying "I should have taken ownership of the statement" nothing more than changing "you're to blame" to "I think you're to blame?" What I was talking about was recognizing that your own bias is also contributing to the disagreement: i.e., we are all to blame for the fact that we do not agree about this--or, conversely, none of us is to blame. Opinions are opinions, and they are by nature not objective. You have no more objectivity than I. Can I say this any clearer?

I think Nic's a great musician, and quite probably a good person, by virtue of what I perceive in his music. You think that his virtues as a musician are overshadowed by his poor taste in art and the underlying insensitivity that you perceive there. Both of us are judging our own perceptions of Nic's work according to our own biases. Neither of us is objective or pure or better than the other.

The only place where I think you are unreasonable is in continuing to blame "Nic's fans" for their "lack of objectivity." I have read al the threads you refer to, and have no clear sense of how their lack of objectivity is qualitatively different from yours.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:40 PM

Been away a few days myself, reading all this brings a few unrelated things to mind. Anyone see the Monty Python "Pope" sketch, where Michelangelo is painting the ceiling, it ends up with "I may not know much about art, but I know what I like" What if all CD's had no artwork, wouldn't that be boring. How could you tell one from another? Does this make the Beatles "White" albumn cover racist? Why the hell do they keep calling "fishermen" "FISHERS" on the news? JohnB


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sondra Willis
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 12:42 PM

Nerd,

OK, you're right about the objectivity issue--I mean that sincerely.

So, NOW can we let it rest?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Truthtroller
Date: 26 Apr 02 - 06:36 PM

Sondra...what are you,a hornet? We hear you baby. Now shut the fuck up.

T.T.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,sid the ferret
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 01:30 PM

by the way.....how IS Nic Jones?


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 04:13 PM

He's just fine!


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 03:01 AM

Never felt bold enough to inquire after Nic; good to know that he's "just fine". The last live experience I had of Nic 's talent was in Hexham folk club 'way back in the late sixties. We used to do some goodnatured sparring re. the works of Rabbie Burns [I was m.c. at the time]. I clearly remember being charmed by "Barbara Allen", "Little Musgrave" and --surprise--"the Lochmaben Harper".


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Sean Gaston
Date: 21 May 04 - 02:47 AM

Nic's doing fine, and even "battling a guitar" as his wife put it. If anyone's interested in the well-being of Nic Jones and possibly to buy an album or two from him, they should go to www.nicjones.net, as this is his homepage. There, you'll see some pictures of Nic, before, during and after the heyday. There's even a fairly recent one of him playing his guitar at home (so you know he still does it). He's not doing many more alternate tunings though, like he used to, or even the same stuff as he did before. Afterall, his records should show that he's really a man of change anyway, live ones included. There's nothing from any of his records on Resurrected.

However, Nic Jones and the members of Halliard would best like to forget about their record, "The Irish In Me", for reasons that are probably related to them sounding more like the Dubliners than the Halliard. However, that was their only hit album.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:12 PM

Sondra,

Loose some weight! (i.e. Lighten up! I had an uncle who had a wooden leg -- from the knee up. (My aunt died of teminal slivers.)

Uncle had to learn to have a sense of humor. ---- When I finally got diagnosed (MS)I was rather devastated but I finally knew why I couldn't walk or play my instruments. In a real way, knowing was liberating. I soon realized that: If you don't have a sense of humor, it isn't funny. When I put out a new CD in '98, I named it: The Older I Get, The Better I Was. I enjoy tasteless humor when, as Nik did, it performs the good service of helping the one who is maimed or disabled or "existence challenged" to better get a handle on their all to real situation.

If you are diabled, I am sorry.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Flatfoot
Date: 06 Feb 08 - 12:59 PM

I sent Nic a version of Green To Grey I recorded last summer and was chuffed to get a hand-written letter of thanks in reply. He seems jovial enough, and while it is a great shame we are unliely to ever see him live again he does enjoy noddling on the guitar at home. I know he and his wife Julia moved house recently, and have been dealing with all the tribulations that entails. I have been in contact trying to work out who owns the rights to the two early Nic Jones solo LPs as well as Devil To A Stranger and The Noahs' Ark Trap, which are like the proverbial rocking horse excretia to hold of, but I have managed to find after much trial on vinyl. I had a view to getting them re-issued on a small label with a friend of mine. I was sadly warned not to involve myself in trying to untangle the legal knotwork that sadly prevents these classic LPs from being re-issued for my own well-being! Let's hope one day in the not too distant future that can be resolved, it really is a crime that such seminal recordings are denied wider distribution.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: Mr Happy
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 06:49 AM

Here he is, 'tho' somewhat shyly keeping his back turned while singing!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kG__e9T3FPY


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:37 AM

Loved it, thanks. I'm glad Nic Jones is doing alright and glad he has a sense of humour, gallows or not.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: GUEST,irishenglish
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 10:35 AM

He has a myspace page as well by the way.


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 11:26 AM

His myspace.......is here
Please do contact him - and buy via Mollie Music (the Jones' own)

He's patron of Otley Black Sheep Festival (Sept) and will be cheerily out and around that fest in 08 as he was last year.
Cheers - Duncan


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: HipflaskAndy
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 11:28 AM

Mollie Music......here!

meant to put that on previous post! - Duncan


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Subject: RE: how is Nic Jones
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 07:15 PM

Well said Duncan, it was great to see him out and about at Otley in '07 and he had a ball too.

Lovely man.


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