Noah's Ark Trap (Nic Jones album)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:50 PM

On reusing tapes:

I could finger several small studios who didn't even bother erasing them first, and only degaussed and cleaned the heads each time Halley's comet appeared on a Wednesday.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:13 PM

is yours an original or the Trailer release?

Just realised I meant to ask "... an original or the Highway release". Sorry for the confusion. Good job I don't have a brain; I'd only break it.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 05:54 PM

Message to Dick Miles re-using tapes.
It was done on a daily basis, at the BBC on Peel sessions. First job of the day, before the band arrived was to wipe the mulitrack from yesterdays session. One 24 track 2 inch master tape could be used about 20 times before it became useless. It had to be done. We could never have stored so many tapes...(which weren't exactly cheap)
Yes, really important stuff is stored for eternity, but daily sessions, having been mixed and saved on various media, were routinely wiped, and re-used.
You don't have to use virgin tape for every recording. (This is all irrelevant now in the digital world. obviously)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:43 PM

says it's Logo Records but has a Trailer sticker on it

Sorry, I meant a 'Highway' sticker.. babble, babble, babble....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 02:41 PM

Mine is the Trailer release dated 1977 LER 2091 with a yellow label.

Mine's the Highway release - there may well be some difference in quality between the two as they were pressed on separate occasions, probably in a different place.

The mix, as Ralphie so rightly observed, will appear to vary according to what speakers are used. In short, the cheaper the speakers, the more the vocal range tends to be favoured. On my copy the vocal sound is tonally weak in comparison to 'Devil' but not particularly quieter in the mix.

My copy of 'Devil' seems to be a hybrid - the record itself has a standard Transatlantic label, the back of the sleeve says it's Logo Records but has a Trailer sticker on it, and the front says as part of the design 'The Leader Tradition'. Whatever, it was good enough to sell me a Fylde guitar (or two).

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:54 PM

Excellent idea!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:38 PM

so the fact that irreplaceable and invaluable tapes of unique cultural significance,
may be damaged beyond repair
as long as you satisfy your personal whim to listen

[.. or surreptitiously record the headphone output for distribution
and extra ratio credits at "Dime" ????]

is of no consequence or concern to you ?????




.. I presume we already know the answer to that question ....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 01:26 PM

"would the BL actually attempt to spool up and play
fragile easily worn out & destroyed unique archived master tapes
at the listening request of any & all members of the public ???"

In my experience - yes!!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 11:07 AM

just to put our minds at rest.....

On the reasonable assumption the British Library has insufficient funds & resources
to carefully make publicly accessible digital copies of all it's audio archives;

would the BL actually attempt to spool up and play
fragile easily worn out & destroyed unique archived master tapes
at the listening request of any & all members of the public ???

[same question applies to studio acetate discs and rarest surviving
so far unplayed vinyl discs in the BL archive ???]

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Morris-ey
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 10:35 AM

I think BonzoTroll is more interested in hi-fi than music - sad.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Reinhard
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:44 AM

JHW: Nic Jones, LER 2027, 1971

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 09:40 AM

I'll be cutting my work to 4 days a week next month, so perhaps a trip to the British Library will be in order!!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: JHW
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 07:05 AM

My Noah's Ark Trap is 1977 LER 2091. I bought it back then as soon as it came out? What was the 'original'?
I have Ballads and Songs, LER 2014, NAT as above, From the Devil to a Stranger LTRA 507, Penguin Eggs 12TS411, did I miss some?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Jul 11 - 06:45 AM

Mine is the Trailer release dated 1977 LER 2091 with a yellow label.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 06:19 PM

'Noah's Ark', et al., was mastered from a third generation recording (at best), whereas Holly's was very likely taken from the original reels and enhanced as well as they could get it - not really a fair comparison. Whilst some of Leader's practices may not have been ideal, I reckon you might well have a duff copy, Bonzo. Just out of interest, is yours an original or the Trailer release?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Jul 11 - 05:49 AM

Interesting that Buddy Holly's home recordings, known as the "Apartment Tapes" are infinitely better sound quality that my pressing of NAT - these were recorded I think in 1958, some 13 years prior.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:06 PM

Howard - you missed a zero off your profit..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:45 PM

Bulmer either doesn't have the masters, or he doesn't have tapes fit to use. When he bought up the rights, he probably assumed he was getting all the tapes in existence and what he did get were no use. He probably felt as though he'd been 'stitched up', and didn't want to appear stupid. I don't believe he's held back potentially profitable releases for any other reason than thinking there were no tapes fit to use at all. The 'Bright Phoebus' CDR was taken from an LP because he was completely unaware that the British Library had the source tapes all the time. That much seems obvious.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 06:16 PM

If Mr Bulmer doesn't think it's worthwhile releasing Noah's Ark Trap as a proper CD because it will never make money, I'll give him a hundred quid for the masters. There. He's be a hundred quid better off than he is now. Better than a kick up the arse! I look forward to your PM, Dave.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 04:13 PM

The company which re-issued my album did a limited edition of 500 copies from a recut master on virgin vinyl, and I assume it was worth their while doing so. £24.91 on Amazon at the moment. I honestly have no idea why.. There was no CD version.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:57 PM

"Sell them all" is the key phrase there, I think! But I'm sure what you say is right, or at least that it's just as valid as the pessimistic take on it. Unfortunately it's not me you need to convince.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

The mainstream record labels did very well (before the internet came along) selling CDs to people who already had the LPs. There's now a new generation of folk enthusiasts who've never heard these classics, unless their parents have a copy. I'm sure there's a demand. They wouldn't sell millions, and probably the majority of the catalogue is pretty worthless, but they'd probably sell more than many CDs brought out today by young hopefuls.

You can get 1000 CDs manufactured, printed and wrapped for around £650. Of course there are other costs, in particular remastering and MCPS, but say £1500 total cost - that's £1.50 each. Sell them all for a tenner and that's £850 profit. If you went for a larger run (and I'd wager Nic's albums would sell more than that) the unit costs are lower and the profit higher. Not worthwhile? and that's without digital sales, which cost virtually nothing to distribute.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: johnadams
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:29 PM

Thinking about it they might have been 12". I was just smaller then. ;-)

Bill used the best he could afford and rarely bought anything budget. He even sometimes mastered on to a Nagra if I remember right, although he had a more conventional mastering machine, maybe a studio Phillips or Ampex.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 02:22 PM

wot these !!!???? definitely can't afford then now either !!!!!!!!!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-TANNOY-15-GOLDS-LE1-ASMk3-LOCKWOOD-cabinets-/270745551664

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM

Thanks John...Nice speakers...No problem with them then...(Didn't realise he was so rich!...I couldn't afford them in those days...Lucky devil!!!)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: johnadams
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 12:46 PM

Ralphie wrote:

Sorry to go on, but the relevance is, I have no idea what Bill Leader was listening on. Probably not State of the Art. The whole Leader thing was done on a half-pence from what I understand.

15" Tannoy Golds in Lockwood? cabinets.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 12:32 PM

I'd like to bet that that Dave Bulmer never knew the session tapes were with the library. It rather looks as though only Bill Leader and maybe those very close to him knew that.

There's money to be made out of some of those albums, but not, I suspect, most of them. Small runs of CDs have never been more economically viable though.

Boxed sets and track compilations from the whole catalogue would be the way to shift the stuff which wouldn't be worth doing on its own. I don't like that idea, but that would be the way to make the most money.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:59 AM

Mass produced CDs may be on the way out...

But these days there is a realistic growing nostalgia niche market
for audiophile remastered premium vinyl pressings of approx 1000 units
and 96khz/24bit full dynamics 'unlimited' studio master quality flac downloads.

The business structures are positively viable.....

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:48 AM

I can only say that the market for 1960s and 1970s "classic" recordings, however well produced, is vanishingly small.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 10:45 AM

Howard - Bulmer was interviewed on the "Bright Phoebus" documentary and asked this very question. His answer was that it wouldn't be worth his while, as there's no demand - the people who say that the 'lost' Leader/Trailer LPs would sell a million are people who have already got the LPs, and they're kidding themselves that anyone else would be interested. He backed this up by referring to his CD-R of "Bright Phoebus", which apparently doesn't sell very well (my heart bleeds for him). In his words, "anyone who wants to get a copy can get one", and the fact that he only sells two or three copies a month shows that there aren't that many people who do want one.

I think this is a lot of nonsense, and that a properly produced, properly promoted re-release of BP would make everyone involved a bob or two (sadly not including Mike or Lal). It seems almost undeniable that Bulmer is in part motivated by bitterness against people on the scene, although I think it would take several hours on the psychiatrist's couch (or down the pub) before he'd admit it. Having said that, I think he has got half a point - we aren't talking huge sales here. If a CD of the Noah's Ark Trap sold as well as Penguin Eggs did when it came out, would it make the album charts?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 09:55 AM

Another sneaky aside, but relevant as regards hearing. A few months before leaving the Beeb, I was summoned for my Bi-Annual audio check with the nurse. I'd never met her, and she didn't know where I worked. But after sitting in a chair, headphones on, pressing a button when I heard a sound...She analysed the results, showed me the graph, and said "You work with Rock musicians" (She had no clue which department I came froom!)
I asked "How can you tell?" "Well you've got a dip at about 6 Khz in both ears...Above and below that all is fine. .....Close proximity to snare drums being hit very hard....All Group 2 Studio Managers have it...It's not a problem, you're not going deaf, It's just something we recognise on a regular basis!"
Back on topi (Lol!) of monitoring. When I was at Maida Vale, we had a pair of "Boxer" speakers, inset in the Studio walls...Huge buggers...Also a paif either "Aurotones" or "NS10s" much dinkier. And, before my time, apparently a converted mono transistor radio with a Jack plug input!
The idea being that you'd do the main recording on the big buggers, to catch all the nuances, but, would then mix on the little ones. and finally listen on the modified radio, (as that was what most listeners, teenagers would have)
The intriguing thing is that, The vocals, although sounding great and sitting in the mix on the Boxers, came up in level the smaller the speaker! By the time you got to the tranny, you couldn't hear the band!
(A lot of bands didn't get this process, until I played the little mono version, and the cries of "Where's my guitar solo gone") etc.
Sorry to go on, but the relevance is, I have no idea what Bill Leader was listening on. Probably not State of the Art. The whole Leader thing was done on a half-pence from what I understand.
I still submit that Bill and Johnny Gill came up with some of most exciting and life affirming recordings in the 70s and 80s.
We are all richer for the knowledge that they achieved them.
And we are all the poorer to know that have been denied access to something like 140 LP's. All for some petty point scoring excersise.

I hope the souls of Joseph Taylor, Billy Pigg, Cecila Costello, Tony Rose and not least Mike and Lal Waterson will hunt you down in the hereafter.

Sorry for the rant...

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 08:37 AM

for what it's worth, while I'm reading about subjects that long ago faded from thought & memory...

When I was about 21 and still had acute youthful full frequency hearing
my Dad lashed out some of his hard earned redundancy money
on a rega planar 3 turntable and a couple of cartridges
to cheer himself up after the local factory was closed down due to management & ownership incompetentcy.

At the time, the UK serious Hi Fi market was divided between the traditional warm stodgy dark British reference sound,
and the newly arriving bright harsh detailed revealing Japanese rival tones..

I needed to mass copy a large part of my LP collection to TDK SA90 tapes
to see me through 3 years away returning to education to do a degree.

I tried his British Rega cartridge and just did not think much of its dark woody boomy tones.
But instantly liked the other more expensive import cartridge
[can't remember brand name - Australian manufactured ??.. "Elite" perhaps ..???]
which was perfectly crystal clear and superbly detailed.

In that post 60's popular affordable Hi Fi boom era, when dark versus bright LP tonality was a major divisive issue
in sound production and reproduction aethsthetic 'philosophising',
it is iteresting to consider just how much this might have informed personal creative principles and deliberate EQ choices
for any Leader recordings 'house style'.
Even if his recording equipment was modern enough to capture bright high end detail ???

These days, I can't tolerate too much treble, it hurts & distorts my ageing fragile eardrums..

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:49 AM

I don't want to turn this into yet another Bulmer-bashing thread, but he reason he behaves as he does seems to be a mystery. He is sitting on a catalogue of potentially valuable (and artisticly priceless) classics which presumably he paid good money for, including not only most of Nic's albums but many other seminal recordings. The biggest part of the cost of producing an album is the studio time, the manufacturing is fairly cheap.

Smokey is right, it should be a 'no-brainer'. Bulmer could have made himself, if not a fortune, at least a sizeable profit. By sitting on these assets he has cost himself money, cost the artists money, destroyed his reputation, and kept this music away from later generations. I can only assume his motive is revenge on the folk scene for some slight, real or imagined.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Jul 11 - 07:09 AM

We received the Facundo Cabral "20 Exitos" CD yesterday, that's 20 Hits of course. Now for all the Bill Leader protection army, the sound quality of these recordings from 1970 and 1971 is superb - but then it was recorded in Argentina of course!!!!!!!!!

I do recommend this CD.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:17 PM

IF a differently ordered track list and title variation to the LP is evidence that the B.L. has a 'pre-master' tape, (and for the life of me I can't think of another possible explanation) then they seem to have a considerable number of 'lost' gems there, certainly everything of Leader/Trailer that I have and many more besides, some of which I've never heard of. Search HERE for the record number (eg. TRAILER LER 2103) - that gets the page of the LP's entry. From there, click on 'LIST RECORDINGS: 1LP0130244' which leads to the list of tracks. Click on 'Label: TRAILER LER 2103' and you'll get a list of Trailer recordings. Good hunting, anyone who's interested. There must be quite a few people who'd be pleased to learn their recordings have been preserved, whatever the chances of a re-release on CD might be. At least it's possible with the source tapes, and at better sound quality than the original release.

Seems like good news to me.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:16 PM

Dammit all, a pristine LP would, last-ditch wise, be a good basis for giving us all a recording to cherish. If anyone has such a beast, stick it in a bank vault for the time being!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:10 PM

Couldn't resist looking this up - obviously he didn't have a fit tape for this one:

1CDR0000355        1998
1LP0130258
Bright Phoebus
LIST RECORDINGS:        1CDR0000355
Dubbing of:         1LP0130258
Dubbing of:         TRAILER LES 2076
Product title:        Bright Phoebus
Contents note:         Songs by Lal and Mike Waterson
Product notes:         C7H27QA1549
Dubbing contractor:        Nigel Bewley
(P)/Dub/Rec date:         1998.07.16(dubbing)
Format:         CD-R 1 stereo
Dubbing duration:         36'43"
Media type:         TDK CD-R74
Orig.characteristic:         double sided, microgroove, stereo LP disc, 33 and 1/3 rpm
Eq, NR, etc. applied:         transferred via CEDAR de-clicker and de-crackler to SoundStation for making of intermaster. Digital transfer to CD-R

Holdings
PRODUCT         Copies         Material         Location
1CDR0000355         1         TAPE         Store

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 05:35 PM

Surely it matters that the tapes exist? Outside Bulmer's possession?

Any tapes he might have will be well buggered by now after 30 - 40 years, that's fairly certain. How many bricks does he have these days? Dobermen eat like horses. Besides, if someone did release them he'd get paid as the owner of the rights. I may be wrong in this, but I'm guessing he'd have to take out an injunction against the release, and give a good reason for doing so.

If it was released he'd make money, and it would cost him to try and prevent a release. I believe the expression is 'a no-brainer'.

Regarding the dodgy 'Bright Phoebus' release mentioned above, a comparison of the frequency analyses of the CD and the LP might prove informative.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 03:53 PM

Definitely not the Master tapes. If an LP transcription. Why go to the bother of putting the tracks in a different order? Makes no sense. Doesn't realy matter anyway. If anyone released them, Bulmer (or his tame Doberman) would be down on them like a ton of bricks... It's a bit of a red herring actually. One day, It'll all work out...The sad be it is that we will all be dead.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:24 AM

Eh?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:09 AM

And the tracks are in a different order because?

Please try to be a little more convincing, 'Redmax'; you're not doing very well so far.

It's perfectly obvious that the titles, track orders and the credits were NOT copied or derived from the LPs. It also seems obvious that the tapes they have are not the master tapes, but that they are what the master tapes were recorded from.

If anyone can paint an alternative scenario which accounts for all the factual evidence so far, I'd be delighted to hear it.


Que.........Meeeester Fawlty??

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 11:03 AM

I work at the BL and can confirm that the Sound Archive references are for vinyl LPs only, not master tapes. I've seen the records myself, for what it's worth. The different song titles are most likely the result of a cataloguer's attempt to cross reference songs, to give them a 'uniform title' in library-speak. Regrettably there have never been adequate resources to do this properly, so the Sound Archive's catalogue isn't all it could be.

And the tracks are in a different order because?

Please try to be a little more convincing, 'Redmax'; you're not doing very well so far.

It's perfectly obvious that the titles, track orders and the credits were NOT copied or derived from the LPs. It also seems obvious that the tapes they have are not the master tapes, but that they are what the master tapes were recorded from.

If anyone can paint an alternative scenario which accounts for all the factual evidence so far, I'd be delighted to hear it.
…………………………………

Good anecdote Ralphie, I can almost picture the blood-stained splicing block :-)

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 09:49 AM

Slight thread drift here, but germaine, and may be of interest to Audio anoraks.
Before I left the Beeb, as a light hearted excersise a young friend and I had a competition using a recording of a piece of prose (about 10minutes long) recited by someone with a stutter. Our task was to make the best of it. He chose Sadie (digital editor) I had the tape machine. Who won? I did! by about 2 minutes. He did the physical/digital edits quicker, but, he had to Upload/Download the audio in real time, whereas, I just put the tape on a machine, started at the beginning, and when I got to the end I'd done. One drawback, lots of cuts to my hands with the razor blade!

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:48 AM

I think when I listened to Lark Rise it was on tape - I remember a voice come through the headphones telling me that the tape was being changed. Is the listening still done on headphones?

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 13 Jul 11 - 06:21 AM

I work at the BL and can confirm that the Sound Archive references are for vinyl LPs only, not master tapes. I've seen the records myself, for what it's worth. The different song titles are most likely the result of a cataloguer's attempt to cross reference songs, to give them a 'uniform title' in library-speak. Regrettably there have never been adequate resources to do this properly, so the Sound Archive's catalogue isn't all it could be.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 08:40 PM

Just realised there isn't actually any cross-fading on 'Devil', just fade-outs and close joins between the tracks, and some of those are not so pretty close-up. I still love it though. Re-mastering it as it was done would be fairly easy. I notice the vocal sound is weaker on 'Noah's Ark' than 'Devil', not so much bass in it. There's no great difference in the guitar on these computer speakers though. The frequency content of both is what you'd expect from that time, budget, and the media used.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:56 PM

Bonzo, go here and click on the 'contact us' link. It tells you how to make a listening appointment.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:46 PM

Sorry Bonzo, at cross-purposes there - yes, they might let someone do that I suppose, you'd have to ask.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:39 PM

No, I am referring to the listening service provided by the British Library. Some items can be listened to on a walk in basis, but more usually a listening appointment needs to be booked. The last time I used this service, I listened to a recording of Lark Rise at the Cottesloe Theatre at the Southbank from 1978. At that time, headphones were provided and you sat at one of a number of booths in the listening room.

Subject: RE: Noah's Ark Trap
From: Smokey.
Date: 12 Jul 11 - 03:18 PM

Bonzo - I don't think the B.L. would let members of the public get their hands on the tapes, they'd lend the 'product' - the LP. They do let tapes out under certain circumstances though, for re-mastering/releasing or whatever, but I don't know exactly what circumstances or what licences, permissions etc., are required.

In the case of my own album it was a Spanish record company who borrowed the tapes, but for all I know the copying could have been done in the UK, and I suspect that to be the case. Neither I nor the band were even consulted despite, unlike Nic, being fully credited with authorship. Robbery by contract was not an unusual phenomenon back then, and artists were easily swayed by the prospect of twelve inches of vinyl.