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Child Ballads: US Versions

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Richie 17 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM
Richard Bridge 17 Oct 11 - 11:20 AM
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Subject: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM

Hi,

Last week I started putting the Child Ballads on my web-site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-305-child-ballads.aspx

I've just started on Child no. 1 and 2. My focus is on traditional US versions

Here are the US traditional versions I've found for Child 1:

1) "The Devil's Nine Questions" by the collector Alfreda Peel, from a Mrs Rill Martin of Mechanicsburg, VA. The two recordings are sung by Texas Gladden, also by Peggy Seeger.

2) "The Devil's Nine Questions" sung Nancy Philley in 1963- Max Hunter Collection

3) "The Devil's Questions" collected by Patrick W. Gainer from the singing of Blanche Kelley, Gilmer County, WV; No Date given.

4) "The Devil's Nine Questions" by the collector John Lomax, from Texas Gladden.

5) "Child Riddles" Sung by Horton Barker from the recording of Dr. W. A. Abrams, at Boone, Watauga county, on September 14, 1941 (Brown Collection of NC Folklore)

6) "Nine Questions" sung by Margaret Tuckwiller, collected by Vivian Richardson. Greenbriar Co., WV. (No Date Given: before 1971)

7) "The Three Riddles" sung by Florence Mixer, Stonington, Maine, 1936; learned from her father. Collected Barry.

8) "The Devil's Questions" sung by Hugh Stallcup, Murphy NC 1933, by the collector John Jacob Niles

9) "There Was a Man Lived in the West" Helen Hartness Flanders printed a Vermont version in Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England 1 pp.45-50 (version a) sung by Mrs. Hattie Eldredge Hardwick collected by Marguerite Olney. Reprinted in Riddling Tales from around the World by Marjorie Dundas.

There are really eight versions since Gladden's version was learned from a traditional version.

The lyrics and MP3's sheet music are here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions.aspx

Does anyone have lyrics to Flander's "There Was a Man Lived in the West"?

Does anyone know of other traditional US versions?

Are there any traditional US version titled "Jennifer Gentle"?

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 11:20 AM

Useful man! Now if someone would kindly do the same with the English versions with actual or possible tunes it would be grand.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Arkie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:09 PM

Great. A very useful site just got even better. Thanks for making all this available.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP), not logged in
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:36 PM

I should think that the Max Hunter's Song Collection would be a good place to check. I don't think that the Child Ballads are indexed separately though - you'll have to browse the titles.

You can also check the Roud Song Index. Use a multiple field search with USA in place collected and Child in Other Number. That returns a lot - put recording in Type to limit to recordings

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 12:40 PM

The entire site is amazingly useful, Richie. Congratulations!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM

I put two early English versions with music on here:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/english-versions-and-other-versions.aspx

I've included original text from Jamieson's "Popular Songs and Ballads," 1806.

I've attached all of Bronson's texts- will add music- put some on already.

I've attached all Roud's listings.

Haven't sorted it out much- just putting info on.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:32 PM

I checked with the Library of Congress, Jennifer Cutting said the Carpenter Collection should be available on-line in December or early next year.

Not sure if Roud put the Carpenter collection on his song index although there are a few references. Anyone know?

I have the numbers (ballads collected) on Carpenter somewhere. This will vastly extend traditional versions mostly in England.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Susan of DT
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM

I assume you have Bronson. There are a large number of ballad collections, often with a book for a state. Do you need any references?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM

Hi Susan,

I have Bronson. The Child collections online seem to be different- for example, at least several of them (earlier edition?) are missing the E version in Child 1.

Are there other traditional Child 1 versions from the US?

I have Brown, Randolph, Warner, Combs plus some of the other "state" books Virgina, SC, Ohio, Indiana.

Don't have Flanders- need lyrics from that- "There Was a Man Lived in the West"


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 03:42 PM

That's quite the project you're starting, Richie, but you definitely have an amazing track record on these things, much better than most. :-)

I checked the Flanders books I have, but unfortunately I don't have Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England, and "There Was a Man Lived in the West" is not in either of Vermont Folk Songs and Ballads or A Green Mountain Songster.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Susan of DT
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 08:37 PM

I have been updating my book catalog. Guess I should hit the American ballad shelves next.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Susan of DT
Date: 17 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM

A few to start with:
Andrews, Edward        Gift to Be Simple
Beldin, H.M.        Ballads and Songs Collected by the Missouri
Bush, Michael         Folk Songs of Central West Virginia, v 1-4
Carawan, G & C        Voices From the Mountains
Cazden, N&H Hau        Songs of the Catskills
Combs, Josiah        Folk-Songs From the Kentucky Highlands
Davis, Arthur K        Traditional Ballads of Virginia
Doerflinger, W        Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman
Eckstrom, Fanny        Minstrelsy of Maine
Eddy, Mary O.        Ballads and Songs From Ohio
Johnson, J W        American Negro Spirituals
Linscott,Eloise        Folk Songs of Old New England
McNeil, W.K.        Southern Folk Ballads, Vol 1-2         
Owens, William         Texas Folk Songs
Randolph, Vance        Ozark Folksongs (abridged)
Richardson,EthelAmerican Mountain Songs
Ritchie, Jean        Folk Songs of the Southern Appalachians
Shoemaker, HenryMountain Minstrelsy of Pennsylvania
Warner, Anne        Traditional American Folk Songs


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM

Thanks for the additions Susan. I've almost finished Child no. 1 and am working on Child No. 2

Here's a question: What is the earliest U.S. recording of Child No. 2, Elfin Knight? AKA Scarborough fair-- Cambric Shirt-- Parsley Sage Rosemary and thyme--

There's nothing in Meade for Child 1-6. I have an idea.

Anyone know?

How about the earlier English recording?

Any recording- doesn't have to be a commercial recording.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 10:10 AM

Hi,

I've put about 10 US versions of the Elfin Knight/Cambric shirt from the 1800s- some with music- this morning:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-the-elfin-knight.aspx

I also finished putting Child lengthy summary and started adding the "Bridal Sark" to the English version- BTW Child say this is a corrupt version.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Susan of DT
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 12:21 PM

Are you familiar with this resource? Child Ballad Database It is a collection of recordings of each of the child ballads, not separated by nationality or whether it is traditional or interpreter. This Child Ballad Project was put together by Liz Anderson in Nevada (with help from lots of other people including several from here) and expanded by van Dijk in Holland.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM

TY Susan that is a gr8 source, esp. when combined with Roud index.

I've actually been using it already. Of course the DT is always my first stop.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 19 Oct 11 - 01:58 PM

Hi,

I've posted what I believe to be the ten earliest US and Canadian versions except for a fragment from Barry.

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-fause-knight-upon-the-road-.aspx
False Knight Upon the Road- US & Canada Versions


1) The False Knight- Collected by Belden 1916

2) False Knight on the Road- Mrs. Jane Gentry 1916 Collected by Sharp

3) The False Knight Upon the Road- from Mrs. T.G. Coates, TN 1916; Collected by Sharp

4) The False Knight on the Road- Sung by Mrs. Sarah Finchum, Elkton, Va., November 23, 1918. Collected by Martha M. Davis, published 1929.

5) False Knight on the Road- From Ballads Migrant in New England, Flanders; Collected from Mrs. E.M. Sullivan, Springfield, VT 1932

6) The Smart Schoolboy- John Jacob Niles 1935   

7) False Knight on the Road- Edmund Henneberry, Nova Scotia (Ben Henneberry)

8) The False Fidee- Sung by Lucile Wilkin, Connersville, Ind., 1935; learned from Mrs. Chester A. Porter. published Ballads and Songs from Indiana- Brewster, 1940, pp. 29-30.

9) False Knight on the Road- Maud Long

10) "Où Vas-Tu, Mon P'tit Garçon?" Baillargeon 1956


I have some questions:

Is Edmund Henneberry from Nova Scotia, Ben Henneberry's son. Anyone have Ben Henneberry's lyrics? Did he sing the "Hi diddle" refrain?

Is the Scottish "False, False Fly" spelled False Flase Fly (False False Fly)- Barry Gleeson? This is the spelling of this title form the CD listing- it's also been titled "False false Fly." It appears to be similar to the refrain "False, fie, the False Fid-ee" collected by Brewster in 1940 in the US.


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:08 PM

I found one of the earliest US published versions- 1907 Barry. It's on;y one verse, but importantly it has other information.

I. "What have you in your bottle, my dear little lad?"
Quo the fol fol Fly on the road,
"I have some milk for myself for to drink!"
Said the child, who was seven years old.

In the article Barry references the "fol, fol fly" or the derivative, "false false fly"; here's what he says:

In this text the words "fol fol Fly" are very likely corrupted from "foul, foul Fiend;" that is, the Devil.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 01:56 PM

Henneberry's are/were from Devil's Island, Nova Scotia. Here's soem info I asked about yesterday.

- Andrew Thomas Henneberry (April 24, 1817 - 1877)
       Spouse: Annie Purcell (*1821 - ?)
       Spouse: Maria Edwards (*1820 - ?) -- married July 21, 1840
                                             
- Benjamin H. Henneberry (1863 - October 12, 1951)
Ben was married at least once and was father to five daughters and three sons. Spouse: Priscilla Catherine Soward (? - ?)
                                                                  
- Edmund Clair Henneberry (Dec. 11, 1898 - 1984)(Verified)    Spouse: Elizabeth Agnes Williams (1902 - 1973)

If anyone has more info or lyrics to Ben's False Knight on the Road, let me know.

TY

Rcihie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Kent Davis
Date: 20 Oct 11 - 08:59 PM

You may be interested in this version from SANG BRANCH SETTLERS: FOLKSONGS AND TALES OF A KENTUCKY MOUNTAIN FAMILY by Leonard Roberts, published by the American Folklore Society in 1974. It was collected by Mr. Roberts from Jim Couch of Putney, KY, in 1955. Mr. Couch learned it from his father, Tom Couch.

The Devil and the School Child

"Oh, where're you goin' there?" said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"I started to my school," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.

"What do you have in your bucket?" said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"It's vittles for my dinner," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"O won't you give me some?" said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"No, not a bite o' crumbs," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"I wished I had you in the woods," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
""With a good gun under my arm," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"With your head broke in two," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"O a fence rail jobbed down your neck," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"Wished I had you in the sea," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"Good board under me," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"Your head turned bottom up," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"Yes, and you under the bottom," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


"I wished I had you in the well," said the proud porter gay,
All alone by the wayside lone.
"But the Devil's chained in Hell," said the child gentleman,
And the game feller's walking alone.


Kent


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 02:17 AM

Thanks for the great version!!

I've already included it on my site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-fause-knight-upon-the-road-.aspx

I've added Ben Henneberry's lyrics and figured out his son's version as well. Need to get the music on there next.

There's an article about him, The Case of Ben Henneberry, attached to his version.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:16 PM

Richie,

I'm glad I could help a little on your wonderful project.

I don't know if this will work, or even be intelligible, but here is my attempt to reproduce the tune that Leonard Roberts collected from Jim Couch. I do not not know how to show a musical staff or musical notation. Also, sometimes things don't line up on the board the way they do in the preview, so I will apologize in advance if this is an unreadable mess.

The key is G. It says "pentatonic, mode 3". It is in 4/4 time. The letters under the syllables are the notes. The bold, italicized letters are higher. The 4 indicates a quarter note, the 8 an eighth note, the 2 a half note. The periods show division into measures. Maybe someone who can actually read music (I can't) can make something of it.

Oh, where're you goin' there?" said the proud porter gay,
g       g      g      g      g    g       d       d       e    e e      d
4 .    8      8      8      8    4       8       8 .    4    8 8      4

All alone by the wayside lone.
d    e g    g    g    b    d    d
8    8.4   8    8    4    4   . dotted 2

"I started to my school," said the child gentleman,
d    e    e   d d       b          g    g    a       g   g   e
4 . 8    8   8 8       4          8    8 . 4       8   8   4               

And the game feller's walking alone.
d       e      g      g   e      d    d e g
8       8   . 4      8   8      4    8 8 . dotted 2



Kent


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Kent Davis
Date: 21 Oct 11 - 11:23 PM

I see that I've lost the italics that were supposed to indicate the higher notes. I will try using capitalization. The higher notes, the high d's and e's, are the ones that go with the capitalized words:   

"...by the waySIDE LONE. 'I STARTED TO MY school,'..."

Kent


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:13 AM

TY,

You've created your own music system- congrats!

I'm back to Elfin Knight- which is simply massive on both sides of the the "big pool".

I have a question about "An Acre of Land." Where does the Kennedy version come from? Where does the "Team of rats" come from- a nursery rhyme? Is the 1904 version by Frank Bailey the earliest? The other's like the Cooper's- traditional or based on Bailey?

Where was Phillips Barry's "Six Questions" published?- I have two versions- one a recent cover.

I'm not sure about the 1908 Laird o' Elfin- is this from Grieg too? There are several version but the music seems to be from the wrong version.

Here's my US Child 2 versions so far:

Now You Are A-Going To Cape Ann- 1828
Versions from New England- Phillips Barry 1905
American Versions with music- JOAFL Article 1894
Redio-Tedio from Sybil Emery 1882
Love's Impossibilities- Mrs. R. F. Herrick 1906
The Cambric Shirt- Belden 1910 JOAFL
Strawberry Lane- Russell Davis 1914
The Lover's Tasks- Mrs. Cis Jones, KY 1917
Versions from the Brown Collection
O, Say Do You Know the Way to Selin- 1937
Go And Make Me A Cambric Shirt- Jacobs 1938
The Cambric Shirt- Mrs.G. A. Griffin; 1939
The Cambric Shirt- Jennie Gray 1961
Impossibilities- Mrs. Emma Medlin 1960
Rosemary and Thyme- Allie Long Parker 1958
The Lover's Tasks- Francis Carter Proctor 1917
The Elfin Knight- 2 Versions; Newell 1900 JOAFL
The Six Questions- Conner from Barry



Here's the link, most have music: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-the-elfin-knight.aspx

Comments and info welcome,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Kent Davis
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 12:56 PM

Richie,

Here's a link to two versions of Child #3, "The Elfin Knight". These are "Are Any of You Going to the Calhoun Fair?" and "O Where Are Going?", sung by the collector, Dr. Patrick Gainor, on his album "Folk Songs of the Allegheny Mountains".

The same link takes you to him singing versions of Child #'s 4, 7, 10, 11, 12, and 13, as well as a version you already have of Child #1. (You already have the text, but I don't know if you have the music.)

I have not been able to find out when he collected these ballads, but the album was recorded in 1963.

http://www.libraries.wvu.edu/wvconline/patrickgainer.htm

Kent

P.S.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 22 Oct 11 - 11:31 PM

Hi,

Gainer and Woofter were at WV in the 1920s and unfortunately some of their (at least Woofter's) versions have been suspect- as many of Niles versions.

At the time there was competition to collect versions of the Child ballads in the US. One of the Child #3, "The Elfin Knight" versions has come into question by Wilgus and others.

Combs was there doing his doctorate on folk-songs of the south at the time when Chappell and Cox were at WV.

TY for the info. Just finished a US version and you can listen to Peggy Seeger's nice recording as well:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/o-say-do-you-know-the-way-to-selin--1937.aspx

TY for you help- I do know the web site and plan to use all of Gainer's versions- there's alot to do!!!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 12:51 AM

Here's the article on my web-site.

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/a-fraudulent-elfin-knight-from-west-virginia.aspx


Note that Gainer has the same refrain text, which is said to have been collected "from the singing of William Bush, Index, West Virginia" (no date given), reads as follows:

The Elfin Knight (Child, No. 2)

1. As I walked out in yonder dell,
A-hie-a-marukee-mirandy-o,
I met a fair damsel, her name it was Nell,
Rollickum-bollickum-dandy-o.

The article doesn't mention names but the text was collected by Woofter- Gainer's collecting buddy. I'm not passing judgement because I don't know. If anything Gainer's version may add creedence to Woofters version- tho I think it's also a bit suspicious.

Also there's no source or date given on Gainer's site- not sure why.

I'm still using Woofter's, Gainer's, Comb's, Lomax's and Niles' collected ballads and songs on my site.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 06:22 PM

This version of the Cherry Tree Carol (Child 54) is revealed to be American by the wonderful line "While Joseph stood around", so perfectly in the spirit of the original.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 12:53 PM

TY

It may be American but what's the source?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 01:16 PM

I believe that I learned that version from the singing of Andrew Rowan Summers.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 10:34 PM

Thanks Dick,

In 1951 Summers recorded a different text he titled, Cherry-Tree Carol pt. 2.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 24 Oct 11 - 11:24 PM

Hi,

I just posted part 2 on my site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/cherry-tree-carol-pt-2--andrew-rowan-summers-1951.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Martha Burns
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 12:03 AM

What a great website, what great work, and what a great thread. I'm wondering if you might get additional answers by posting to BALLAD-L. An idea, anyway.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 25 Oct 11 - 01:25 PM

This is already a very interesting site, and it's going to be wonderful when you progressed further with it. You've already listed some that I was unaware of.

In answer to: "Does anyone know of other traditional US versions [of Child #2]?", here are two I don't think you have listed yet:

Sarah Ogan Gunning, from Pineville, Ky, rec. 1974
On Meeting's a Pleasure (Musical Traditions)

Sara Cleveland, b Hartford NY 1905, rec. 1968
On Ballads & Songs of the Upper Hudson Valley (Folk Legacy)

Also don't forget the 'Inter Diabolus et Virgo' version of Child #1 from 15th century England, in his second chapter of 'Additions and Corrections" - the version that finally convinced the Prof that here was indeed a Devil ballad.

More from me later.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 12:13 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the kind words. Just posted this US version of Child 1:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-devils-nine-questions--mary-estep-1958.aspx

I like the refrain, which is quite different than most versions.

Brian- I'll check out those versions. Of course I have Child's original narrative, versions A-E and additions. I have that here on the first page:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1-riddles-wisley-expounded.aspx


CONTENTS:

1. Child's Narrative
2. Child's Ballad Texts A-E (E text from Volume 5)
3. End Notes
4. Footnotes
5. Additional text (Version F)
6. Appendix (Text of Inter diabolus et virgo.) (From Volume 9 "Additions and Corrections" by Kittredge)

ATTACHED PAGES (see left hand column):

1. Recordings & Info: Riddles Wisely Expounded
       Riddles Wisely Expounded- Toelken 1966
       68 Versions Roud 161
       Jennifer Gentle (Versions)

2. Sheet Music: Riddle's Wisely Expounded (Bronson's texts and some music)

3. US Versions

4. English Versions and Other Versions

I'm slowly muddling along- having hashed out Child 1-54. I'm stuck on Child 2 3 and 4 as far as finding the versions and putting in music- there's a lot, especially Child 4 for which Roud has over 800 listings.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 01:06 AM

I've sorted out the US titles so far, many have music:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-versions-the-elfin-knight.aspx

I'll post the rest of the music later.

Interesting to me is G.A. Griffin's version- you can listen to online- it's a country/hillbillty version collected in 1939 by Alan Lomax, then republished with music in 1950 by Morris under a different title. I've also put Morris' music. Strange!

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-cambric-shirt--mrsg-a-griffin-1939.aspx

I guess there are around 35 versions before 1950 so far. I haven't looked in many of my books and I have looked at all of Roud's list.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 01:42 AM

In G.A. Griffin's recording you can hear a rooster crowing- haha! So is this the first recorded US version of Child 2? Maybe, I'm not positive.

I also added some great commentary from her (at the bottom of the page).

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM

"Of course I have Child's original narrative, versions A-E and additions. I have that here on the first page"

Apologies, there it is as you say. I went straight to the 'English Versions and Other Versions' tab, and didn't find it there.

Will respond to your PM shortly.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:12 PM

"Child Riddles" Sung by Horton Barker from the recording of Dr. W. A. Abrams, at Boone, Watauga county, on September 14, 1941

Just a thought: Tom Paley once told me that Horton Barker had been given some of the Child Ballads in his repertoire by a collector - I'm not sure who. His 'Child Riddles' looks very like the Rill Martin one, except for the 'Heavier than the lead' stanzas which correspond with those in Child 1C. Might this be another case like that of Texas Gladden's version?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM

TY Brian,

Clearly the individual ballads presented by Child should be found in 'English Versions and Other Versions' section as well.

After all, they are important Engish-Scottish versions.

I suspect Leadbelly also learned some songs from the Lomaxes. Barker has a great traditional sound. I have one of his recordings.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 01:34 PM

Hi,

I've added the Child texts to my site for #1: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/inter-diabolus-et-virgo--rawlinson-broadside-1450.aspx

I don't have a date for Child C, when was it printed?

If anyone that knows the English/Scottish version can proof, I'd appreciate it.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Oct 11 - 03:15 PM

> 1. As I walked out in yonder dell,
A-hie-a-marukee-mirandy-o,
I met a fair damsel, her name it was Nell,
Rollickum-bollickum-dandy-o.

Regardless of how much of the song may have been faked, the refrains are authentic.

They belong to a bawdy song collected by Edith Fowke in Ontario that begins (IIRC), "As I was walking down the street,.../A couple of whores I chanced to meet...."

Hugill gives a cleaned up version as a shanty to the tune of "Camptown Races," with "hoodah" choruses.

But shanty singers will also recognize "Rollickum-bollickum-dandy-o" as a variant of a very different shanty, Hugill's "Ballockin' Randy Dandy!" (which he euphemized print as "Rollicking...," and which Colcord gives as "Galloping...").



All in all, an interesting distribution.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 02:27 AM

Good point- but that's not what Wilgus and Bernth Lindfors think.

I just put Woofter's version on my site:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/as-i-walked-out-in-yonder-dell--william-bush-1924.aspx


I'm trying to add some info to make the Child English/Scottish versions interesting:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-cambrick-shirt--joseph-ritson-1793-child-g.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM

There's no disagreement. I'm suggeesting that Woofter knew the bawdy song and substituted those refrains. Oddly he didn't employ them all the way through.

What seems to me "suspicious" about Gainer's text, if anything, is the number of rural-American substitutions, like French grass, bullfrogs and toads, the West Fork, and the "old church land." It sounds almost too good to be true, but I haven't examined all the available texts.

Gainer's singing, at Richie's link, is worth listening to.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 02:21 PM

I've been putting the child versions on my site, they are of course mainly English/Sciottish versions.

I have no dates for Motherwell. Most of the Child versions say manuscript but they are not in Motherwells two books- that I have access to. Anyone know how to access Motherwell's manuscripts?

I'm working on the Elfin Knight, Child 2 here are my questions:

1) Child Version L is found in the 1853 journal- Notes and Queries, Volume 7 - Page 8; It's titled "Old Song" Signed D for (Draufield).
What/where/who is Draufield? I figure it's a town or location.

2) Apparently 'The Deil's Courting,' Motherwell's Manuscript,' p. 103, (what's the date?) is found also in Crawford Collection of about 1827 (Lyle). Does anyone have that version. Is it the same as Motherwell's?

3) Version K is from Halliwell's Nursery Rhymes of England, 6th ed., p. 109, No 171. Does the 1846 edition have the song? I suspect that it's much older than even 1846. Where is it first found?

Any help would be appreciated,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM

Draufield seems not to be a place. If it's a surname, it's extraordinarily rare.

Maybe it's a misprint for "Dranfield," a village near Sheffield. Any correspondence printed in 1853 must have been based on a handwritten, and conceivably hard-to-read, original.

Buit that's only a guess.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:41 PM

See for yourself: http://books.google.com/books?id=fQHgAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA100&dq=Notes+and+queries:+Volume+7+-+Page+8+1853&hl=en&ei=ay6rTpmKDIfVgAec54X


You may have to enter page 8 or go to page 8. It's clearly- Draufield which I assumed was the author, his intital is also used- D.

I try to go to the original source, if possible, so I can understand where Child got his versions. Plus there is additional information not included which I am including.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 06:48 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGEw58N0sOM&feature=fvsr

Some cute teenagers rewrote the unquiet grave. I think they did a great job and have real talent in writing traditional-sounding words...maybe give them a compliment if you go there. mg


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:32 PM

I'm not 100% certain that the "D." even refers to "Draufield," though certainly it may. The note after that signed "D." is signed "D.X." If "D." is for "Draufield," what's "D.X." mean? If one person sent in all three items, why isn't the name "Draufield" applied clearly, at the end, to all three of them?

Extensive searches of British newspapers as well as of the Web turn up fewer than a dozen people named "Draufield." An "Hon. Mem. R. Draufield" is mentioned in passing in a Darbyshire paper of the 1890s. The title may imply membership in the House of Commons, but I can find no further information about him.

In contrast, "Dranfield" appears many times as a surname as well as the name of an English village.

The available evidence allows no firm conclusion as to whether the name connected with the ballad text was intended to be "Draufield" or "Dranfield" or something else abbreviated as "D." Even if "Draufield" is correct, the person who sent in the ballad appears for now to be untraceable.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Oct 11 - 12:37 AM

Hi,

I assumed the whole article, "Folk Tales"- which includes the song, was by the same person so that would probably be "Draufield." The other D. would be an ibid. Not sure why there was a D.X.

A small point and probably untraceable for now. The best place to look would be in other Notes and Queries- and I didn't find anything.

Not that it matters but this information is not attached to the current editions on the Child Ballads.

TY Lighter by-the-way for your imput. This is new ground for me and I simply haven't studied each version enough and it's history to know off-hand.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 08:22 PM

Hi,

I've been putting the Child ballads in the my English and other ballads section. Here's Child F:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/false-knight-outwitted--roxburghe-ballads-c1710.aspx

I've been adding the complete text from the source Child used. Is this helpful?


I need some help with Child 4. What is the text of "The Western Tragedy"? What is the US version alluded to by Kittredge that dates back to circa 1800?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 09:17 PM

Hi,

Here's my brief research on Child 4 English version: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions-4-lady-isabel-.aspx

I need a copy of "The historical ballad of May Culzean: founded on fact" I know it was published in 1817. Anyone?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Reinhard
Date: 30 Oct 11 - 10:51 PM

Draufield seems to be a red herring. In the index of Notes and Queries (p. 641) Draufield only refers to 'on eggs sold after sunset' while D. is an entry of its own referring to 'song, "Sing Ivy"' and 'nursery tale'.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 09:06 AM

"Apparently 'The Deil's Courting,' Motherwell's Manuscript,' p. 103, (what's the date?) is found also in Crawford Collection of about 1827 (Lyle). Does anyone have that version. Is it the same as Motherwell's?"

No, it's not. The 'Deil's Courtship' from Crawfurd (also included in Motherwell's MS, I believe) is a different ballad, related to the English song 'The Keys of Canterbury' and also the well-known 'Paper of Pins'. The Devil bribes a woman to go along with him, his true nature being revealed by a tell-tale cloven foot.

Chambers 'Popular Rhymes of Scotland' has another version of the same ballad, in which the Devil appears only in the spoken introduction and postscript. Child didn't include the ballad, though, so presumably it's outside the scope of your study. I do have texts if you need them.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 05:52 PM

Hi,

Please provide texts Brian. I've got two more recent versions and don't know the source need to compare and include. Having the info may help someone studying the ballad.

I started on the US version of Child 4 today-- Haha. I've got about 60 most with music. I'm trying to do the older versions before 1960 first. Of course there are more.....

http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us-and-canadian-versions.aspx

If anyone has any more versions let me know- I haven't looked in the DT yet- but I will, some of them are already on my short list.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 31 Oct 11 - 07:17 PM

I'm putting Niles and Randolph on now:

Niles title: Lady Ishbel and her Parrot- Melton (NC) 1934 is very peculiar- since there is no Lady Isabel (Ishbel) in the lyrics the title must have been supplied by Niles. No other US collector has found that title and it appears only in Child A. Why Niles changed the title from Isabel to Ishbel is unknown- haha.

Here's the first verse- standard fare:

Lady Ishbel and her Parrot- Hattie Melton (NC) 1934; Collected John Jacob Niles.

He followed her up and he followed her down,
He followed her as she lay.
And she not having the strength to withstand,
Or the breath to say him nay.


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 01:13 AM

Hi,

I've proofed and added music to the first 32 and added a few- only 67 US versions so far- haha. Check them out here:http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us-and-canadian-versions.aspx

Signing off,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 11:41 AM

Hi,

I've added in most of the versions I have in my database and my online collection.

I found one early Virginia version titled "Wilson" which was published in 1889, no music for it tho:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/wilson--babcock-virginia-1889.aspx

I guess there around 80 US versions now, most with music. Don't have many MP3's to add only about 4 or 5.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Joe_F
Date: 01 Nov 11 - 06:19 PM

Richie: I do not know the source of the American version of "The Cherry-Tree Carol". I first learned it from _The New Song Fest_.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 02 Nov 11 - 12:39 AM

Thanks Joe,

I'll get to 54 someday- haha.

I'm wrapping up US versions of Child 4: http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us-and-canadian-versions.aspx

There's about 80, I have to proof the last 40 and add music. I might put some MP3's on.

I'll do Child 5 & 6 and 7. Earl Brand looks like the next US stop,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 11:24 AM

Hi,

I've started on Earl Brand and am focusing on US versions here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-7-earl-brand.aspx

Does anyone know where the Earl Brand version in the DT is from?

It's attributed to Lizzie Gibson (Virginia) 1918 but it's not the lyrics from EFFSA. It's some compilation- modern version?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 03 Nov 11 - 09:42 PM

Here's the correct lyrics from Lizzie Gibson's version. The one in the DT has been sanitized (?) I assume because of such lines:

Till she saw her own dear father's head,
Come tumbling by her foot.

EARL BRAND- Version E- Mrs. Lizzie Gibson, Crozet Va., April 26, 1918

1. Wake you up, wake you up, you seven sleepers
And do take warning of me;
O do take care of your oldest daughter dear
For the youngest are going with me.

2. He mounted her up on his bonny, bonny brown
Himself on the dark apple grey,
He drew his buckles down by his side
And away he went singing away.

3. Get you up, get you up, my seven sons bold
Get on your arms so bright;
For it never shall be said that a daughter of mine
Shall lie with a lord all night.

4. He rode, he rode that livelong day
Along with his lady so dear,
Until he saw her seventh brother come
And her father were walking so near.

5. Get you down, get you down, Lady Margaret, he cried,
And hold my horse for awhile,
Until I can fight your seventh brother bold,
And your father is walking so nigh.

6. She held, she held, she *bitter, bitter held
And never shedded one tear,
Until she saw her seventh brother fall
And her father she loved so dear.

7. "O light you off, fair Ellen," said he,
"And hold my steed by the rein,
Till I play awhile with your father,
And seven brothers all.

8. Fair Ellen she stood there,
And never changed a word.
Till she saw her own dear seven brothers all,
A-wallowing in their own blood.

9. Fair Ellen she stood there,
And never changed a note,
Till she saw her own dear father's head,
Come tumbling by her foot.

10. "O hold your hand, sweet William," said she,
Love runs free in every vein,
But I have a father no more.
If you aren't satisfied with this
I wish you were in your mother's chamberee,
And I's in some house or room.

11. He rode up to his mother's gate
And jangled at the ring;
"O mother, dear mother, asleep or awake,
Arise and let me in."

12. "O sister, O sister. make my bed,
For my wound is very sore.
O mother, O mother, bind up my head,
For me you'll bind no more.

13. It was only about three hours before day,
And teh chicken's crowing for day,
When every wound that William received,
The blood began to pour.

14. Sweet William he died like it was today,
Fair Ellender tomorrow;
Sweet William died from the wounds hereceived,
Fair Ellender died of sorrow.

*Better?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 09:11 AM

Hi,

Here are the correct lyrics from Lizzie Gibson's 1918 version. The one in the DT has been sanitized (?) I assume because of such lines:

Till she saw her own dear father's head,
Come tumbling by her foot.

EARL BRAND- Version E- Mrs. Lizzie Gibson, Crozet Va., April 26, 1918

1. Wake you up, wake you up, you seven sleepers
And do take warning of me;
O do take care of your oldest daughter dear
For the youngest are going with me.

2. He mounted her up on his bonny, bonny brown
Himself on the dark apple grey,
He drew his buckles down by his side
And away he went singing away.

3. Get you up, get you up, my seven sons bold
Get on your arms so bright;
For it never shall be said that a daughter of mine
Shall lie with a lord all night.

4. He rode, he rode that livelong day
Along with his lady so dear,
Until he saw her seventh brother come
And her father were walking so near.

5. Get you down, get you down, Lady Margaret, he cried,
And hold my horse for awhile,
Until I can fight your seventh brother bold,
And your father is walking so nigh.

6. She held, she held, she *bitter, bitter held
And never shedded one tear,
Until she saw her seventh brother fall
And her father she loved so dear.

7. "O light you off, fair Ellen," said he,
"And hold my steed by the rein,
Till I play awhile with your father,
And seven brothers all.

8. Fair Ellen she stood there,
And never changed a word.
Till she saw her own dear seven brothers all,
A-wallowing in their own blood.

9. Fair Ellen she stood there,
And never changed a note,
Till she saw her own dear father's head,
Come tumbling by her foot.

10. "O hold your hand, sweet William," said she,
Love runs free in every vein,
But I have a father no more.
If you aren't satisfied with this
I wish you were in your mother's chamberee,
And I's in some house or room.

11. He rode up to his mother's gate
And jangled at the ring;
"O mother, dear mother, asleep or awake,
Arise and let me in."

12. "O sister, O sister. make my bed,
For my wound is very sore.
O mother, O mother, bind up my head,
For me you'll bind no more.

13. It was only about three hours before day,
And teh chicken's crowing for day,
When every wound that William received,
The blood began to pour.

14. Sweet William he died like it was today,
Fair Ellender tomorrow;
Sweet William died from the wounds hereceived,
Fair Ellender died of sorrow.

*Better?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 12:23 PM

Hi,

Finished up the Brown Collection entries: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/earl-brand--brown-collection--11-versions-1913.aspx

If anyone has any additional US source versions. I don't have the one from Florida, circa 1950 nor the one from Miss. from Hudson.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 03:17 PM

Hi,

Just put the version with music that my grandfather collected in 1933: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/sweet-willie--mrs-bragg-north-carolina-1933.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Nov 11 - 10:03 PM

Hi,

I made a mistake on Version E- Mrs. Lizzie Gibson, Crozet Va., April 26, 1918. I've got some photocopies in my Child notebook of long ago and somehow got the end of Version D taped to Version E.

I'm actually missing page 22. If some elf can get rid of that post I'd appreciate it- don't want to mislead anyone.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 01:54 AM

Hi,

I've got most of the early US and Canadian Earl Brand versions put on my site: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-7-earl-brand.aspx

I think there are around 45, I have one more source to check and then I'll need to add some lyrics and music- many are done. I'm leaving off some of the Sharp versions F-K and will put them in the music section since they don't have text included.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 05 Nov 11 - 10:01 PM

Hi,

I'm adding the English versions of Earl Brand. Does anyone know the date of "Scotch Ballads, Materials for Border Minstrelsy" or have information about this collection?

I have four Scottish versions of Child A. Not sure of Child's dates, I assume he means the 1857 version is the most complete. It it from the 1818 version?

"Obtained from recitation "many years ago" wrote Mr. White in 1873, by James Telfer, of Laughtree Liddesdale, in some part of the neighboring country: the copy has the date 1818."

Why the 1857 date?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 01:03 PM

Hi,

I'm Working on child 7A. The Lady and the Dragoon, known as the Bold Soldier . There are several version posted here- Red River Shore- Valiant Soldier.

Here's what I have so far: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/7a-lady-and-the-dragoon-bronson.aspx

Anyone have Cas Wallin's "Little Soldier" lyrics?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM

Here's a list of titles compiled so far of Child 7A:

The Master-piece of Love Songs
The Bold Keeper (Early Broadside Title)
The Seamans Renown in winning his fair lady
Seamans Renown
The Keeper and the Lady
New River Shore (Brown Collection)
Red River Shore (Lomax)
Dear Jewell (Randolph- variant of Red River Shore)
Lady and the Dragoon
Bold Soldier
Jolly Soldier
Rise Ye Up
Valiant Soldier
Soldier's Wooing
A Little Soldier (Cas Wallin)
A Soldier (Mary O. Eddy)
I'll Tell You of a Soldier
Young Soldier (Randolph)
The Poor Soldier
The Yankee Soldier (Brown Collection)
The Rich Lady from London (Brown Collection)

I have the early broadside versions dating back to 1673 (Cazden)

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-master-piece-of-love-songs-the-bold-keeper.aspx

Interestign are the variants titled: New River Shore (Brown Collection); Red River Shore (Lomax); Dear Jewell (Randolph- variant of Red River Shore)

Art Thieme posted and recorded the Lomax version.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 14 Nov 11 - 01:31 PM

Hi,

I'm up to Child 10. Here are the US versions so far:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com.temp.realssl.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-10-twa-sisters.aspx

Can anyone help identify some of the sources in the DT for Child 10?

For example, THE TWO SISTERS (7) is posted by R.G. no info is given. Where did it come from and who is R.G.?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 11:07 AM

I've got most of the US versions of Child 10 Two Sisters up:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-10-twa-sisters.aspx

There are over 70 so far. I don't have them all finished (haven't typed all the lyrics)

I can't figure out sources from many of the versions in the DT. There are also over 10 music examples with no info at all. Anyone know?

Now I'm doing the English versions. Child A: After looking at the 1817 reprint of Facetiae, Musarum Deliciæ: or, The Muses Recreation) the second refrain ends with an O:

With a hy downe, downe, a downe-o-

Child doesn't- mistake? Anyone know?

The first edition of Child A was printed in 1655- why is the date listed as 1656?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 12:27 PM

The late Malcolm Douglas gave some details of the versions in the DT as of 2001 here.

Can't help with those early English versions.

Your work is as good as ever, but I'm puzzled why no-one else is contributing to this thread. Could it be the title? Some of our UK experts may think there's nothing here for them.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 02:36 PM

Richie

I've looked at some of Child's sources for 10A. Facetiae and the Wit Restor'd versions have -O, Jamieson's Popular Ballads has -A, so he may have taken the copy from there. (I assume you're asking why Child has -A instead of -O, though you don't make that clear above).

He does say in a footnote that "Jamieson, in his Popular Ballads, II, 315, prints the ballad with five inconsiderable variations from the broadside as from Musarum Deliciae, 2nd ed 1658...Still it is hardly credible that Jamieson has blundered, and we may suppose that copies, ostensibly of the same edition, varied as to contents, a thing common enough with old books" (my bold).

Perhaps he accepted this as one of Jamieson's (possibly legitimate) variations. (I haven't made a full comparison for the differences).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 02:59 PM

The DT(7) version - one of the ones Malcolm added no information for - looks like it was derived from one collected by Sharp and published in EFSSA, 1932, from Louisa Chisholm, Woodridge, Va, Sep 1916. It's No.27 in Bronson.

RG says in his note: "This is how I remember it; it may well be a pastiche of several versions", so that may account for the differences later in the tune. I assume RG either started from this version or from hearing someone who had started from this one.

Dick or Susan should be able to tell you who RG was.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 03:37 PM

Brian/Richie
You seem to be doing fine without any help! You have access to Roud and many of the American collections give lists of other sources in their headnotes. Your thread moves along at such a pace it's hard to keep up, but I'll drop in from time to time.

Personally I find including Bold Soldier/Dragoon in with Earl Brand or Erlinton unnecessary. All they have in common is a single motif and a rough plot. If we counted all songs with such similarities as the same ballad just about every ballad would be related. I know I'm disagreeing with the great Bronson here, but that's just my opinion.

An excellent project, though I haven't had time to visit the website yet. The problem is we're all heavily weighed down with similar projects.

One of the projects I started was a critique of each Child ballad regarding authenticity which can be found on the Folkopedia website hidden behind the Child Ballad texts. But I haven't contributed anything for a while. My pet subject includes the forgers and fabricators like Scott, Buchan, Baring Gould etc. But you have your fair share of these in the States.

Regarding the Motherwell Mss, they were copied out by Macmath for Child and are in the Hornel Library at Kirkudbright. Ronnie Clark I think it is is in there at the moment (Lucky sod!) and he might be contacted via the Ballad List. Harvard of course has copies in Child's Library there.

Brian,
Have you read Mary Ellen Brown yet? Awesome!!!!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 03:57 PM

I should add that many of the Child ballad scholars in Britain are academics and don't subscribe to Mudcat, although some of them occasionally contribute to Indiana Ballad List and Tradsong on this side of the pond.

I think they're still sulking that 2 Americans, Child and Bronson, cornered the market in popular ballads. (Only joking!)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Brian Peters
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 03:58 PM

The cavalry has arrived! Thanks for the tip about Folkopedia, Steve, I hadn't found your work there before.

Have you read Mary Ellen Brown yet? Awesome!!!!

No but she's on my wish list!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 04:15 PM

I plead guilty to being RG (when I'm more formal).Version 7 in the DT is very close to Bronson version #27---Peggy Seeger recorded it in Long Harvest, attributing the tune to Louisa Chisholm, Woodsbridge VA. I'd guess I learned it (oral transmission) from Margot Mayo, ca 1948.

It's also version C (Chisholm in Sharp/Karpeles "English Folk Songs in the Southern Appalachians"-1932 edition) Which collection, I should mention, will be re-issued by CAMSCO in the near future.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 05:02 PM

Re the dates of 10A. Looking at the footnotes on p119 I would guess Child only had access to the second edition and so gave the date for that. He was meticulous to the point of obsession with such things.

My own version of 10 is pretty fluid. I sing it on the principle of Albert Lord's assertion that in less literate societies ballads were remade every time they were performed from knowledge of the plot and a bank of stock phrases etc. This is made a lot easier when there are lots of refrain lines and repetitions as in my version. I got the tune and refrains from a locally recorded version (JFSS) and took it from there.

Here's a typical first verse

There was an old man in the north country,
Hi down derry down down
there was an old man in the north country,
Valid we ought to be,
There was an old man in the north country,
And he had daughters one, two and three,
And I'll be true to my love if my love will be true to me.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 05:46 PM

Thanks for coming forward Dick! (It might be nice to compile a list of those contributor abbreviations sometime).

I should have mentioned in my post above that I was referring to the tune. The lyrics seem to be a composite.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 16 Nov 11 - 07:05 PM

Note too that part of the tune of Dick's version is identical to the middle bars of "Mademoiselle from Armentieres."

Undoubtedly a coincidence, but the stanzaic forms are also very similar!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 12:55 AM

Here's the basic info page for Child 10: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/recordings--info-10-the-twa-sisters.aspx

Here are the articles included:

ATTACHED PAGES: (see left hand column)
1) "The Twa Sisters" Going Which Way?- Parker 1951
2) The Twa Sisters: A Santal Folktale Variant
3) English, Scottish & American Versions of the 'Twa Sisters'
4) Roud Number 8: Twa Sisters
5) Two Gaelic Variants of "The Two Sisters" - Brewster
6) A Note on the "Herb" and Other Refrains of Certain British Ballads- Gilchrist 1930
7) Bronson's 1945 article, Mrs. Brown and the Ballad (Child B is from Mrs. Brown)

This is what I wrote for Child Version B:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-cruel-sister--mrs-brown-1783-child-b.aspx

It's amazing how much there is in just one of the 26 versions by Child. I assume people know that Child had A-Z but I don't see it listed this way.

Thanks for your help. I can see I need to get Brewster's writings. Anyone know more?

Yes Mick I was talking about the Facetiae and the Wit Restor'd versions that have -O as the second refrain. I think that is better than -A. Also the date on the first edition is one year earlier than typically quoted. Child knew this, of course, but why the difference?

I think the DT should if possible give sources for the lyrics. I can't include some versions for the DT becasue of this.

TY for your help,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 02:27 PM

THe DT lists sources when we know them. It's a problem with having maany contributors.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 17 Nov 11 - 03:29 PM

Richie,
I'm interested to know why you think the O ending is better than the A ending. There are other examples of the A ending from the period. I seem to remember 'John Dory' has the A ending and a quick glance on the opposite page shows an early version of The George Aloe, both from the early 17th century if not earlier.. The A ending may simply have been fashionable in the earlier period, 16th century. I see from Child's variant notes (p137) that the 10Ac Wit and Drollery version repeats the A endings.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 12:34 AM

Hi Steve,

No preference, just noting the difference when I found it- which Child also did- after careful reading.

I also looked and added to my site Aa by Edward F. Rimbault in Notes and Queries. This version dated 1656 has the A ending. Rimbault says:

The original ballad of "The Miller's Melody."

I've looked at Child J which is titled "The Miller's Melody" but I have no idea why- yet- since the fragment is taken from Notes and Queries. It's not titled that since it's a response to a query titled: "Three Ladies Playing At Ball" from Philadelphia- proving at least the a fragment of the ballad existed (from an Irish source) in the US.

I'm still perplexed about the 1st edition dated 1655 since the 1656 date comes from the 2nd edition. There's a footnote about it by Child.


Any comments are welcome as sometimes I feel like I'm in the dark here.

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 12:38 AM

The importance of "Three Ladies Playing At Ball" fragment from Philadelphia is the date: 1852, making this one of the earliest documented US versions even though it was learned from an Irish grandmother.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 02:26 AM

As this thread is being followed by ballad enthusiasts, may I draw attention to another of our popular all-day ballad forums on Saturday 3rd. December at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club? Full details are on this thread.. It's a good opportunity to sing ballads and discuss them with other enthusiasts.

The forum is led by Paul and Liz Davenport, who also perform at the club in the evening.

Valmai (Lewes)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Nov 11 - 01:13 PM

Child L has been interesting- Here are the three versions from Hughes and also the Barkshire Tragedy (1859):
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-drowned-lady--hughes-pub-1859-child-lb.aspx

It took some time but I found the original edition of Notes and Queries for Child L a. http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-millers-melody--1853-child-l-a.aspx

Many of the Child ballads do not include the original sources and texts from those sources which is what I'm try to do,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 01:37 AM

Hi,

I've looked at Child J again which is titled "The Miller's Melody" It seems that this title is not right, it should be perhaps: "There Were Two Ladies Playing Ball"

Here's a link to the actual Notes and Queries page:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/Data/Sites/1/avatars/three%20ladies%20playing%20at%20ball-%201870.jpg


It's a response to a query titled: "Three Ladies Playing At Ball" from Philadelphia. There are two other articles titled "Miller's Melody" in Notes and Queries.

If anyone can clear this up I'd appreciate it,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 22 Nov 11 - 10:55 PM

Hi,

Alomst finished putting Child ballad 10 Twa Sisters on my site with notes ann original sources. There are close to versions A-Z and multiples of some. Additionally there are two in the Additions and Corrections.

Here's "Norham, Down By Norham" from Lugton, 1830? Child 10- Version W:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1norham-down-by-norham--lugton-1830-child-w.aspx

Any additional info about Thomas Lugton would be appreciated. The first refrain is unique.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 25 Nov 11 - 01:59 PM

Hi,

I'm finishing up Child 11 Cruel Brother, US versions here:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1us--canadian-versions-child-11-the-cruel-brother.aspx

I don't understand Child D and think something's fishy here. Since it's a query from Philadelphia remembered from an Irish grandmother shouldn't it be technically a US version?

Anyone have the Flanders text from Ancient Ballads?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 02:09 PM

Hi,

I've been sich and fain would lie down- but I'm too busy- haha. So I've started child 12 Lord Randall and put the first wave otf Us texts on here:http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-child-12-lord-randal.aspx

My main question is what are the Child I (US) texts? He lists seven versions and only gives one. What? Where are they?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 05:19 PM

Richie - re 12I, the differences between the other versions and the (a) text are listed at the end of the chapter for the ballad (p166 in my Dover edition)

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 30 Nov 11 - 09:58 PM

TY,

I knew they were somewhere, I appreciate your reply. My cold's worse-haha- that's what happens when you have to play flamenco guitar for 3 hours with one break- haha! My head's inside a tunnel...

One good thing happened today- my new article on Hiram, Art and Charlie Stamper came out today in Fiddler magazine.

There a ton of version of Lord Randal- Whew- Here's the English versions: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions--12-lord-randal.aspx

Barely started on them- haha!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 11:11 AM

I'll add these versions to the DT:

Lyr add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child Ib.
b. By a daughter of Elizabeth Foster, as learned about 1820.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

2. 'What did you have for your dinner, Tiranti, my son?
What did you have for your dinner, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

3. 'Who cooked you the eels, Tiranti, my son?
'Who cooked you the eels, my sweet little one?'
'T was my grandmother; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

4. 'What color were the eels, Tiranti, my son?
What color were the eels, my sweet little one?'
'They were streaked and striped; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

5. Where did she get the eels, Tiranti, my son?
Where did she get the eels, my sweet little one?'
By the side of the haystack, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

6. 'What'll you give to your grandmother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your grandmother, my sweet little one?'
'A halter to hang her; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

7. 'Where'll you have your bed made, Tiranti, my son?
Where'll you have your bed made, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

8. 'What'll you give to your father, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your father, my sweet little one?'
'All my gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and die to lie down.'

Footnotes Child Ib. :
b. 2[1]. for your dinner.

After 2 follows:
Who cooked you the eels, Tiranti, my son? etc.
't was my grandmother;
mother, make my bed soon, etc.

b 5 = a 3: 1. Where did she get the eels? etc.
3. By the side of the haystack, etc.
b 6 = a 7: 7 = a 8: 8 = a 5.
8[4]. and die to lie down,
a 6 is wanting in b.


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 11:35 AM

Lyr. add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child Ic.
c. By Miss Ellen Marston, of New Bedford, as learned from her mother, born 1778.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart , and I'm faint to lie down.'

2. 'O what did she give you, Tiranti, my son?
O what did she give you, my sweet little one?'
'Striped eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

3. 'O how did they look, Tiranti, my son?
O how did they look, my sweet little one?'
Ringed, streaked, and speckled, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

4. O where did they come from, Tiranti, my son?
O where did they come from, my sweet little one?'
'From the corner of the haystack; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

5. 'What what will you give your father, [Tiranti] my son?
O what what will give him, my sweet little one?'
'A coach and six horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

6. 'O what will you give your mother, [Tiranti] my son?
O what will you give your mother, my sweet little one?'
'All my gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

7 'O what will you give your granny, Tiranti, my son?
O what will you give your granny, my sweet little one?'
'A halter to hang her; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

8 'Where'll you have your bed made, Tiranti, my son?
Where'll you have your bed made, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

9. So this is the end of, Tiranti, my son,
So this is the end of, my sweet little one:
His grandmother poisoned him with an old dead snake,
And he left her a halter to hang by the neck.


Footnotes Child Ic. :

c. 1[4], at my heart (and always).

2[1]. O what did she give you? etc.
   3. Striped eels fried, etc.

3 = a 4. 1 O how did they look? etc.
   [3]. Ringed, streaked, and speckled, etc.

4 = a 3. [1]. O where did they come from?

5[1]. what will you give your father, my son?
[2]. O what will you give him?
[3]. A coach and six horses.

6[1]. O what will you give your mother, my son? as in 5.
[3]. All my gold and my silver.

7[1]. O what will you give your granny? as in 5.

8[1]. where'll, etc.

c adds, as 9:
So this is the end of Tiranti my son,
So this is the end of my sweet little one:
His grandmother poisoned him with an old dead snake,
And he left her a halter to hang by the neck.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:09 PM

Lyr add: TIRANTE, MY SON- Child Id.
d. By Mrs. Cushing, of Cambridge, Mass., as learned in 1838 from a schoolmate, who is thought to have derived it from an old nurse.

1. 'O where have you been, Tirante, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I've been to my uncle's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

2. 'What did you have for your supper, Tirante, my son?
What did you have for your supper, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels and fresh butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

3. 'What color were the eels, Tirante, my son?
What color were the eels, my sweet little one?'
'They were black striped with yellow; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

4. 'What'll ye will to your mither, Tirante, my son?
What'll ye will to your mither, my sweet little one?'
'My gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

5. 'What'll ye will to your father, Tirante, my son?
What'll you give to your father, my sweet little one?'
'My coach and my horses, mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

6. 'What'll you will to your uncle, Tirante, my son?
What'll you will to your uncle, my sweet little one?'
'*A halter to hang him; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and fain wad lie doun.'

* notes are unclear- this is the only logical solution

Footnotes- Child Id.

1[1], etc. Tyrante.
3. I've been to my uncle's, etc.
4. and fain wad lie doun.
2[3]. eels and fresh butter.
3 = a 4. 3. black striped with yellow.
4 = a 7. 1. What'll ye will to your mither?
3. My gold and my silver.
5 = a 6. 1. What'll ye will to your father?
3. My coach and my horses.
6 = a 8. 1 What'll you will to your uncle?
3, 5 of a are wanting.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:30 PM

TIRANTI, MY SON- Child Ie.
e. By Mrs. Augustus Lowell, of Boston.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

2. 'What did you have for your supper, Tiranti, my son?
What did you have for your supper, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

3. 'What will you leave your mother, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave your mother, my sweet little one?'
'A coach and six horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

4. What will you leave your sister, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave your sister, my sweet little one?'
A box of fine clothing; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

5. 'What'll you give to your grandmother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your grandmother, my sweet little one?'
A rope to hang her with; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

6.* 'Where shall I make it, Tiranti, my son?
'Where shall I make it, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.'

* The footnotes are incomplete, I assume 6. is as I've assembled it. Certainly 3 and 4 aren't the only verses missing

Footnotes Child Ie. :

I. e.

1[4]. For I 'm sick at heart, and faint [fain] to lie down.

3 = a 7. 1. What will you leave your mother?
   3. A box full of jewels.

4[1]. What will you leave your sister?
3. A box of fine clothing.

5 = a 8. 3. A rope to hang her with.
6 = a 5. 1. Where shall I make it?
3, 4 of a are wanting.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:38 PM

Lyr. add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child I f.
f. By Mrs. Augustus Lowell, of Boston. [No date given, pre- 1884]

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

2. 'What did you have for your supper, Tiranti, my son?
What did you have for your supper, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

3. What will you leave your sister, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave your sister, my sweet little one?'
A box of fine clothing; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

4. 'What will you leave your mother, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave your mother, my sweet little one?'
'A coach and six horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

5. 'What'll you give to your grandmother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your grandmother, my sweet little one?'
A rope to hang her with; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

6. 'Where shall I make it, Tiranti, my son?
'Where shall I make it, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at heart, and fain to lie down.'

* The footnotes are incomplete, I assume 6. is as I've assembled it.

Footnotes Child I f. :
f. This copy was derived from the singing of the lady who communicated e, and they naturally agree closely.
1[4], fain to lie down.
f 3 = e 4;
f 4 = e 3.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 12:54 PM

lyr add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child I g.
g. By Mrs. A. Lowell, as derived from a friend.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.'

2. 'What did you get at your grandmother's, Tiranti, my son?
What did you get at your grandmother's, my sweet little one?'
'I got eels stewed in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.'

3. 'What will you leave to your father, Tiranti, my son?
'What will you leave to your father, my sweet little one?'
'All my gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.'

4. 'What will you leave to your brother, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave to your brother, my sweet little one?'
'A full suit of mourning; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.'

5. 'What will you leave to your mother, Tiranti, my son?
What will you leave to your mother, my sweet little one?'
'A carriage and fine horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

6. 'Where'll you have your bed made, Tiranti, my son?
Where'll you have your bed made, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

Footnotes Child I g. :

g. 1[4]. For I'm sick at the heart, and I faint to lie down.
2[1]. What did you get at your grandmother's?
3. I got eels stewed in butter.
3 = a 8. 1 What will you leave ...
4[1] . What will you leave to your brother?
   3. A full suit of mourning.
5 = a 7. 1. leave to your mother.
    3. A carriage and fine horses.
6 = a 5.
3, 4 of a are wanting.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 01 Dec 11 - 01:31 PM

I probably should have posted this first. Verses 5. and 8. are as they appear in the original MS, not as they normally appear.

Lyr add: TIRANTI, MY SON- Child Ia.
a. Communicated by Mrs. L.F. Wesselhoeft, of Boston, as sung to her when a child by her grandmother, Elizabeth Foster, born in Maine, who appears to have learned the bal lad of her mother about 1800.

1. 'O where have you been, Tiranti, my son?
O where have you been, my sweet little one?'
'I have been to my grandmother's; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

2. 'What did you have for your supper, Tiranti, my son?
What did you have for your supper, my sweet little one?'
'I had eels fried in butter; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

3. 'Where did the eels come from, Tiranti, my son?
Where did the eels come from, my sweet little one?'
'From the corner of the haystack; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

4. 'What color were the eels, Tiranti, my son?
What color were the eels, my sweet little one?'
'They were streaked and striped; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

5. 'Where'll you have your bed made, Tiranti, my son?
Where'll you have your bed made, my sweet little one?'
'In the corner of the churchyard; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

6. 'What'll you give to your mother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your mother, my sweet little one?'
'A coach and six horses; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

7 'What'll you give to your grandmother, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your grandmother, my sweet little one?'
'A halter to hang her; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

8 'What'll you give to your father, Tiranti, my son?
What'll you give to your father, my sweet little one?'
'All my gold and my silver; mother, make my bed soon,
For I'm sick to my heart, and I'm faint to lie down.'

Footnotes Child Ia. :
I. a. 1[4], faint to, an obvious corruption of fain to, is found also in b, c; d has fain wad; e, faint or fain; f, fain; g, I faint to.
N. B. 8 stands 5 in the manuscript copy, but is the last stanza in all others which have it.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 05 Dec 11 - 02:48 PM

Hi,

Most of my US Lord randal versions are on now: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-child-12-lord-randal.aspx

I'm guessing there are over 80 so far. Still need to put some of the music on and lyrics.

What is the source of DT version titled: "Oh Mak' my Bed Easy" ?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 02:24 PM

Hi all,

I spent quite a bit on time on Lord Randal and No. 12A Billie Boy.

My US versions of No. 13 Edward: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us-and-canadian-versions-child-13-edward.aspx

Now I'm on 14. Babylon and am having trouble soting out "Burly Burly Banks of Barby-O". Peeger Seeger does a cover of it attributed to Jonathan Moses of Orford; New Hampshire, 1942. However the lyrics are identical to the version by Elmer Barton of Quechee, Vermont; Collected in 1942 by M. Olney; From Ballads Migrant in New England.


Jonathan Moses are different at the end according to the text from from Dad's Dinner Pail and Other Songs From the Helen Hartness Flanders Collection by Debra Cowan.

Is Seeger mistaken about the source? Does anyone have Jonathan Moses text printed in a book (i.e. not on-line)?

Here are the texts compared- I can post if that's easier:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-burly-burly-banks--barton-vermont-1942-.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 03:02 PM

Richie - just a small note re your website version from Mr.Olney. The text in the book at google The Burly, Burly Banks of Barbry O (click the Page 61 link) has a couple of minor differences:

The refrain line is given as High in the lea and the lonely O and in stanza 10 it has And it's there he ended her sweet life.

I don't know if it's different in the Eight Traditional Ballads source.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 21 Dec 11 - 11:57 PM

TY Mick, corrections made!

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Dec 11 - 12:25 PM

Hi,

Hope everyone has a great new year! Just recorded two US Child ballads collected from Nathan Hicks on his 1930s lap dulcimer:

Enjoy:

George Colon [sic]:
http://bluegrassmessengers.com/george-colon--nathan-hicks-nc-1933.aspx

Endurance [Maid Freed from the Gallows]http://bluegrassmessengers.com/endurance--nathan-hicks-nc-circa-1936.aspx

Just click on link to listen,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:36 AM

Hi,

I'm up to Child 20 the Cruel Mother. Child gives A-M in the first edition- then N is added in 1884. Then in 1886 N and O are added. Then Q, what gives? Where is P?

Should I just give to N versions and skip P or change one to P?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 10:49 AM

This is what I have Child 20- N-Q:

N. Cambell MS, II, 264. [1st N. from The English and Scottish popular ballads: Volume 2 - Page 504; 1884;]

N. Percy Papers, with no account of the derivation. [2nd N. from The English and Scottish popular ballads: Volume 2, Part 2 - Page 500; 1886; Gives O also ]


O. Pepys Ballads, V, 4, No 2, from a transcript in the Percy Papers.

P. [No P is given]

Q. 'The Cruel Mother,' Shropshire Folk-Lore, edited by Charlotte Sophia Burne, 1883-86, p. 540; "snug by Eliza Wharton and brothers, children of gipsies, habitually travelling in North Shropshire and Staffordshire, 13th July, 1885."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:34 PM

Richie

In my Dover edition the Additions in Vol III (p502) have a note saying "N, O should be O, P, II 500: see I, 504" ie the two he added in Additions and Corrections Vol 2 should be renamed as O and P, not N and O.

A-M were given in the main text of Vol I and N was given in the Additions and Corrections to Vol I. The two in Vol II had been incorrectly named as N,O and the note in Vol III corrects that.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 04 Jan 12 - 12:54 PM

TY Mick,

I'll make the corrections on my site.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:51 AM

Hi,

I've put Child's A-Q on. It seems a bit odd that Child would take a verse out (Verse 11) in Version P, a broadside titled The Duke's Daughter's Cruelty. There's mention of it later and I agree with taking the verse out.

Here's what I have so far: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/english-and-other-versions-20-the-cruel-mother.aspx


Does anyone know about Hyder Rollins' broadside print dated 1638 ?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 02:17 PM

The title doesn't appear in Rollins' Analytical Index to the Ballad Entries in the Stationers Register.

FWIW I think the broadside is the original. It was then totally an English ballad. When Child wrote his notes he wasn't aware of the broadside and all of the continental allusions in his headnotes to 20 actually belong to 21 Maid and the Palmer. What confused him was some Scottish antiquarian or broadside hack had fused onto the ballad the penance verses from 21 which didn't originally belong to 20. Somewhat ironically by about 1820 21 had just about disappeared in Scotland whereas the penance stanzas continued to prosper in Scottish and American versions of 20.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,Richie
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:19 AM

Hi,

TY-- The same information appears published by Cazden although it doesn't make it acccurate. I tried finding Rollins broadside info info but couldn't find it.

I'm still adding English and US versions.

This is a good article: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/1history-symbol-and-meaning-in-the-cruel-mother.aspx

It's attached to Recordings and Info page

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 10:22 AM

Hi,

I've finished putting US & Canadian versions of Child 20 Cruel Mother: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-20-the-cruel-mother.aspx

Any US versions anyone would like to add? Does anyone know where Paul Clayton got his version?

I've started Child 21, Maid and the Palmer. I have Niles "Seven Years"-- are there any other US version of Child 21?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 04:38 PM

Are you seriously including Niles' material.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 09:43 PM

Hi,

Some people think everything Niles did was fake. I personally don't know, since I wasn't there- what he collected that was authentic. It's really impossible to tell. I believe many of the songs in his collection were authentic.

Therefore I'm including it all. Because I'm unable to make a determination of authenticity - I'm not making any determination- I'm leaving that up to you----

That's my position with Niles, Gainer, Woofter and others, who's collected versions may or may not be authentic.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 03:15 PM

You're in very good company.
That's precisely what Child himself did.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 07:00 PM

It's also interesting and worthwhile because, whatever their immediate origin, they are in fact versions of the original ballads and thus relevant to the history of the songs.

The real controversy is whether they were ever sung "in tradition" or by "the folk." But those are different questions entirely.

Are "Sir Patrick Spens," "Edward," and "The Battle of Harlaw" fakes? It may depend on what we mean by "fake."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 10:47 PM

Hi,

I'm working on No. 24 Bonnie Annie and I've improved the Child Version C b.:


http://bluegrassmessengers.com/11undutiful-daughter--hannaford-devon-1890-child-c-b.aspx

The title is not supplied, not the informant. As given there's not much- plus verse 5 is missing,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 14 Jan 12 - 10:52 PM

Hi,

Here's Bonnie and Child C a. :

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/undutiful-daughter--masters-devon-1888-child-c-a.aspx

Verse 5 is supplied from Baring-Gould also the date, title and informant are added.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:24 PM

Hi,

I'm working on Child No. 26 The Three Crows. It's intersting that thsi is a minstrel song in the mid-1800s that was "lined out" like the old hymns. I have two early texts 1863 and 1868 but am missing the "Christy's New Songster" text whcih I thing is the same as one of the texts I have.

Anyone have "Christy's New Songster" text?

When was the "McGee McGaw" refrain added, I have a 1909 text but maybe it was earlier?

When did it start using the "When Johnny Comes Marching home" melody. Is that melody "Bonnie Doon" and Johnny Fill Up the Bowl?

Here's what I have so far: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-26-the-three-ravens-.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:53 PM

The melodies of "Johnny Fill Up the Bowl" and "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again" are essentially identical. The evidence is that "JFUTB" iwas in print a few months earlier.

"Ye Banks and Braes of Bonnie Doone" is the name of a song by Robert Burns. Its tune is entirely different.

The two Johnny songs were so popular during the Civil War that there would have been no reason not to adopt the melody to "The Three Crows" at that time, particularly if all a singer had was a printed copy of the words.

It's possible that the Johnny melodies originally belonged to "The Three Crows," but there's no direct evidence of this.

There appears to be no record of "The Three Ravens" between 1611 and the 1820s. The ravens became "crows" later than that - if the sparse records can be trusted.

A big "if."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 09:53 PM

TY,

Davis (Trad. ballads of Virgina) and his contributors in two places point out that the song was sung to the Burns melody, "Bonny Doon."

Jabbour and a host of others say it's sung to "When Johnny Comes Marching Home Again." Are they both right? Could be?

I was wondering if there was a similarity because I'm not familiar with the Bonny Doon melody.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 07:01 AM

Richie - The text of Christy's New Songster can be found here: CNS - Hathi Trust Digital Library. You can download single pages as pdfs, so you can get the two pages you need easily. (Full pdf needs a partner login).

I've put the text below.

Mick




      The Three Crows

As sung by BYRON CHRISTY, JAMES BRYANT, H.WILSON, and
             G.WRIGHTMAN


[Spoken] THREE crows they sat upon a tree,
         As black as any crows could be.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat the above)

[Spoken] One of these crows, said unto his mate,
         What shall we do for something to eat?
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)

[Spoken] 'Way on that side of yonder plain,
         There lies a horse but three days slain.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)

[Spoken] We'll jump right on to his backbone,
         And pick out his eyes, one by one.
          (Spoken) Sing.
          (Repeat as above)


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 09:55 AM

Mick, Richie, I just mistakenly posted a comment to the current "Twa Corbies" thread.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 11:16 AM

Nice one Mick!!

I've got the other two versions on my site from the 1860's and also the first (McGee McGar [sic]) songbook version from 1909.

I'll post at some point.

First I'd like to point out that the DT's "Two Ravens"-

THE TWO RAVENS- From Mountain Minstrelsy of Pennsylvania, Shoemaker 1931 Long popular in Clinton County, One of Clarence Walton's favorites.

and the recent post:

The Legendary Ballads of England and Scotland compiled & edited by John S. Roberts, Chandos Classics 1900

is by Allan Cunningham, 1925.

It was written by Cunningham based on the extant versions and is not traditional.

Interestingly- there's already a first version collected of Cunningham's Scottish ballad in the US by Mellinger Henry, his A version, c. 1900. After Cunningham's Two Crows was published in Cleveland's Compendium (Philadephia, 1848, with subsequent editions reprinted in 1859 etc.) it began surfacing as a traditional ballad, but it was learned from this book- directly or second hand. The orginal, from Allan Cunningham, was printed in 1825 in Cunningham's Songs of Scotland, Vol. I, pp. 289-290. Cunningham rewrote Scott's (See Twa Corbies- Child A a.) and Ravenscroft's text (See Child A Three Ravens). Here's Cunningham's original:


THE TWO RAVENS [1] Cunningham 1825

There were two ravens sat on a tree
Large and black as black might be;
And one unto the other gan say,
Where shall we go and dine to-day?
Shall we go dine by the wild salt sea?
Shall we go dine 'neath the greenwood tree?

As I sat on the deep sea sand,
I saw a fair ship nigh at land,
I waved my wings, I bent my beak,
The ship sunk, and I heard a shriek;
There lie the sailors, one, two, three,
I shall dine by the wild salt sea.

Come, I will show ye a sweeter sight,
A lonesome glen, and a new-slain knight;
His blood yet on the grass is hot,
His sword half-drawn, his shafts unshot,
And no one kens that he lies there,
But his hawk, his hound, and his lady fair.

His hound is to the hunting gane,
His hawk to fetch the wild fowl hame,
His lady's away with another mate,
So we shall make our dinner sweet;
Our dinner's sure, our feasting free,
Come, and dine by the greenwood tree.

Ye shall sit on his white hause-bane,[2]
I will pike out his bony blue e'en;
Ye'll take a tress of his yellow hair,
To theak yere nest when it grows bare;
The gowden[3] down on his young chin
Will do to rowe my young ones in.

O, cauld and bare will his bed be,
When winter storms sing in the tree;
At his head a turf, at his feet a stone,
He will sleep, nor hear the maiden's moan:
O'er his white bones the birds shall fly,
The wild deer bound and the foxes cry.

Footnotes:
1 One of the most poetical and picturesque ballads existing.
2. The neck-bone — a phrase for the neck.
3. Golden.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 01:05 PM

Here's the other 1863 minstrel text:

From: Frank Brower's Black Diamond Songster and Ebony Jester (New York: Dick and Fitzgerald, [c. 1863]), pp. 30-31. The ballad, titled "The Four Vultures. A Burlesque Quartette," is prefaced by the description: "As sung by Frank Brower, Ephe Horn, Nelse Seymour, and Charley Fox. (Always received with shouts of laughter.)"

THE FOUR VULTURES- Frank Brower's Black Diamond Songster and Ebony Jester (New York: Dick and Fitzgerald, [c. 1863]), pp. 30-31


SPOKEN (slowly and precisely).
There were three crows sat on a tree,
And they were black as black could be.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
There were three crows sat on a tree,
And they were black as black could be.

SPOKEN.
One of them said unto his mate,
"What shall we do for grub to eat!"-
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
One of them said unto his mate,
"What shall we do for grub to eat?"

SPOKEN.
There lies a horse on yonder plain,
Whose bod-y has been late-ly slain.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
There lies a horse on yonder plain,
Whose bod-y has been late-ly slain.

SPOKEN.
Let's perch ourselves on his back-bone,
And pick his eyes out, one by one!
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
Let's perch ourselves on his back-bone,
And pick his eyes out, one by one!

SPOKEN.
The devil thought to in-jure me,
By cutting down my apple-tree,
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
The devil thought to in-jure me,
By cutting down my apple-tree.

SPOKEN.
He did not in-jure me at all,
For I had apples all the fall.
Brothers, sing!

QUARTETTE.
He did not in-jure me at all,
For I had apples all the fall.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 11:14 PM

Hi,

I've posted the first batch of US versions (Three Ravens/Crows)- over 40 and only have a few more to go that I have accessible:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canadian-versions-26-the-three-ravens-.aspx

Thanks for your help and imput,

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 10:33 AM

Curiously Peggy Seeger's version has lyricsfouund in the 1863 Minstrel version I posted above. Where did her version originate?

The Three Ravens
Peggy Seeger, The Long Harvest, Record Seven, Argo (Z)DA 72 1975

There were three crows sat on yonder's tree
They're just as black as crows can be
One of them said to the mate:
What shall we do for grub to eat?

There's an old dead horse in yonder's lane
Whose body has been lately slain
We'll fly upon his old breast bone
And pluck his eyes out one by one

Old Satan tried to injure me
By cutting down my apple tree
He could not injure me at all
For I had apples all the fall

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Jan 12 - 05:17 PM

Hi,

I'm working on Child 39, Tam Lin. Thre are two version J's or at least this version is listed under J:

Queen of the Fairies- Version K [appears under the title J but should be K or perhaps a supplimental version not intented to be lettered] Child 39 Tam Lin

'The Queen of the Fairies,' Macmath Manuscript, p. 57. "Taken down by me 14th October, 1886, from the recitation of Mr. Alexander Kirk, Inspector of Poor, Dairy, in the Stewartry of Kirkcudbright, who learned it about fifty years ago from the singing of David Ray, Barlay, Balmaclellan."

1    The maid that sits in Katherine's Hall,
Clad in her robes so black,
She has to yon garden gone,
For flowers to flower her hat.

Subsequent versions added K-N seem to have skipped this version.

Can anyone clear this up?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM

Richie
I think we have here exactly the same error as noted previously.

If we take into account that the first J was printed in the appendix to Part 2 and that the second J was printed in the appendix to Part 6 I think we can excuse this error. Part 2 was published in June 1884 and Part 6 in July 1889. 5 years is a long time in this business.

I only have the 5 Dover volumes. It would be interesting to know what the Loomis Edition did about this.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 30 Jan 12 - 04:04 PM

Mark from Loomis posted an answer to my request on the Indiana Ballad List. Apparently Loomis just shunted the letters along where the errors occurred. Common sense triumphs. He said he could only remember one example but we have 2 here already including Child 20.

Richie, if you come across any more I'll put them all together on various lists. Plenty of us are still just working from the Dover edition.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 10:29 AM

Hi Steve,

I changed the letters, rather than have 2 J's. This was done by Child when the same mistake was made.

I've added Hares on the Mountain as an Appendix to The Twa Magicians. I'm having trouble finding US versions aside from 'Roll Your Leg over." Anyone know any US versions and have text?

I've finished roughing in Child No. 45 King John and the Bishop: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/45-king-john-and-the-bishop.aspx

Why isn't the oldest text c. 1550 entitled, A Tale of Henry III and the Archbishop of Canterbury (A Tale of King John and the Archbishop of Canterbury) from the library of Corpus Christi College, Oxford- MS. 255 mentioned in ballad index and on-line?

I've included it here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/a-tale-of-henry-iii-and-the-archbishop-c1550.aspx

I have several US versions- am I missing any? Anyone have more?

1) The Bishop of Canterbury- Hubbard (Utah) c.1875

2) The Bishop of Old Canterbury- Hall (CT) 1907

3) King John and the Bishop- M. E. E. (R.I.) 1907

4) King John and the Bishop- Vaughan (MI) 1937

5) The Bishop of Canterbury- Ford (CA) 1938

6) The King's Three Questions- MacNelly (Maine) 1940


View them here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-44-king-john-and-the-bishop.aspx

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 01:12 PM

Personally I'm very suspicious of all versions of Twa Magicians, and I'm glad to see you are putting Hares on the Mountains in an appendix as both could at a stretch derive from continental versions independently.

KJ
You have the MacNally version from Maine but there are 3 other versions in Flanders, Ancient Ballads.

There's a pre 1850s version in the Stevens Douglass Manuscript.

There are 2 prose versions in MacEdward Leach 'Lower Labrador Coast

And Niles gives a version from Ratliff which doesn't seem to have suffered much at his hands.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 04:52 PM

Richie
I tried to print off the 1550 text from your website without much success. Do you know anywhere it can be printed off from the net easily? Or please could you point me in the direction of an easily accessible copy. Is it given in any well-known books?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:12 PM

Ritchie - the catalogue entry for Corpus mss was in a catalogue of mss published in 1852 by Henry Coxe under the Henry title - Catalogus codicum mss. qui in collegiis aulisque Oxoniensibus ...: Volume 2 - Page 107 Entry 24 (with a couple of slight differences in the quoted first two lines: shew and Jhon. Why it was under the Henry name I can't imagine.

Steve - you can copy the text by highlighting the first letter A then press Ctrl+Shift+End, which will select to the end of the text, then press Ctrl-C to copy it (or right-click/Copy), then paste it into an emtpy text file with Ctrl-V(or right-click/Paste).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:30 PM

Ta Mick. I'll try that.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 06 Feb 12 - 05:56 PM

Mission accompished, Ta. I couldn't get the Control/shift/end to do anything but I managed to highlight from the bottom upwards and then followed the rest, a doddle.

When I get time I'll do a close comparison between this, the Percy version and the earliest print version.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 08 Feb 12 - 09:36 AM

Hi,

In Child's narrative for No. 46 Captain Weddderburn he writes at teh beginning of the third paragraph:

We have had of the questions six, A 11, 12, What is greener than the grass? in No 1, A 15, C 13, D 5; What's higher than the tree? in C 9, D 1; What's war than a woman's wiss? ("than a woman was") A 15, C 13, D 5; What's deeper than the sea? A 13, B 5, C 9, D 1.

Since there is no D version, what's going on? Is the D version missing?


Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:14 AM

Hi,

Folk info has a version of 46 Wedderburn here:http://www.folkinfo.org/songs/displaysong.php?songid=406&pagenum=1&reverse=

What is the source? I know it's not from Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Dec 1951. The notes by Gilchrist are- but not the text and music.

Anyone?

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 09:57 AM

Ritchie -

If you look at folkinfo's abc which includes the song (X:102), the source seems to be one of Helen Creighton's recordings. The relevant headers are:


T:Captain Wedderburn's Courtship
B:Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, Dec 1951
F:http://www.folkinfo.org/songs
S:Tom Young, Nova Scotia, July 23, 1937
Z:Doreen H Senior and Helen Creighton


ie Source is Tom Young, transcribed by Senior and Creighton.

JEFDSS, Dec 3, 1951 does include an article by Senior and Creighton: Folk Songs Collected In The Province of Nova Scotia, Canada, which I presume is the source. This document The Creighton-Senior Collaboration (pdf) has an account of the trip and the collection of the song (p23, para 3).


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:08 AM

Mick

Google search didn't find lyrics. You're right, what's worse is I already have it on my site:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/captain-wedderburns-courtship--young-ns-1937.aspx

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: GUEST,SteveG
Date: 09 Feb 12 - 10:55 AM

Re ABCD, if you look carefully he is actually referring to Child No 1
Riddles WE.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 16 Feb 12 - 11:27 PM

Thanks Steve for the clarification--- Sorry for this long post. I'm confused about Twa Brothers Child E; When I added Motherwell text from page 60 it was not the same but a collation- see at the bottom of this post. Where is the collation from? I know it's found on p. 270 the Ballad Minstrelsy of Scotland.


The Twa Brothers- Child Version E
Motherwell's Minstrelsy, p. 60.

1    There were twa brothers at the scule,
And when they got awa,
'It's will ye play at the stane-chucking,
Or will ye play at the ba,
Or will ye gae up to yon hill head,
And there we'll warsel a fa?'

2    'I winna play at the stane-chucking,
Nor will I play at the ba;
But I'll gae up to yon bonnie green hill,
And there we'll warsel a fa.'

3    They warsled up, they warsled down,
Till John fell to the ground;
A dirk fell out of William's pouch,
And gave John a deadly wound.

4    'O lift me upon your back,
Take me to yon well fair,
And wash my bluidy wounds oer and oer,
And they'll neer bleed nae mair.'

5    He's lifted his brother upon his back,
Taen him to yon well fair;
He's wash'd his bluidy wounds oer and oer,
But they bleed ay mair and mair.

6    'Tak ye aff my holland sark,
And rive it gair by gair,
And row it in my bluidy wounds,
And they'll neer bleed nae mair.'

7    He's taken aff his holland sark,
And torn it gair by gair;
He's rowit it in his bluidy wounds,
But they bleed ay mair and mair.

8    'Tak now aff my green cleiding,
And row me saftly in,
And tak me up to yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.'

9    He's taken aff the green cleiding,
And rowed him saftly in;
He's laid him down by yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.

10    'What will ye say to your father dear,
When ye gae hame at een?'
'I'll say ye're lying at yon kirk-style,
Whare the grass grows fair and green.'

11    'O no, O no, my brother dear,
O you must not say so;
But say that I'm gane to a foreign land,
Whare nae man does me know.'

12    When he sat in his father's chair,
He grew baith pale and wan:
'O what blude's that upon your brow?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my gray steed,
He wadna ride wi me.'

13    'O thy steed's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my greyhound,
He wadna hunt for me.'

14    'O thy hound's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your hand?
O dear son, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my gay goss-hawk,
He wadna flee for me.'

15    'O thy hawk's blude was neer sae red,
Nor eer sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your dirk?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'It is the blude of my ae brother,
O dule and wae is me!'

16    'O what will ye say to your father?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'I'll saddle my steed, and awa I'll ride,
To dwell in some far countrie.'

17    'O when will ye come hame again?
Dear Willie, tell to me;'
'When sun and mune leap on yon hill,
And that will never be.'

18    She turnd hersel right round about,
And her heart burst into three:
'My ae best son is deid and gane,
And my tother ane I'll neer see.'
______________

From: Minstrelsy: Ancient and Modern, with an historical intr.p. 60 William Motherwell - 1827

THE TWA BROTHERS

The domestic tragedy which this affecting ballad commemorates is not without precedent in real history; nay, we are almost inclined to believe that it originated in the following melancholy event:—

"This year, 1589, in the moneth of July, ther falls out a sad accident, as a further warneing that God was displeased with the familie. The Lord Sommervill haveing come from Cowthally, earlie in the morning, in regaird the weather was hott, he had ridden hard to be at the Drum be ten a clock, which haveing done, he laid him down to rest The servant, with his two sones, William Master of Sommervill and John his brother, went with the horses to ane Shott of land, called the Prety Shott, directly opposite the front of the house where there was some meadow ground for grassing the horses, and willowes to shaddow themselves from the heat They had not long continued in this place, when the Master of Somervill efter some litle rest awakeing from his sleep and finding his pistolles that lay hard by him wett with the dew he began to rub and dry them, when unhappily one of them went off the ratch, being lying upon his knee, and the muzel turned syde-ways, the ball strocke his brother John directly in the head, and killed him outright, soe that his sorrowful brother never had one word from him, albeit he begged it with many teares."—Memorie of the Somervilies, Vol. I. p. 467.

The reader will find in the first volume of "Popular Ballads and Songs" another edition of this ballad, which, in point of merit, is perhaps superior to the present copy. The third stanza of that edition was however imperfect, and the ingenious editor, Mr. Jamieson, has supplied four lines to render it complete. Excellent though his interpolations generally are, it will be seen that, in this instance, he has quite misconceived the scope and tendency of the piece on which he was working, and in consequence has supplied a reading with which the rest of his own copy is at complete variance, and which at same time sweeps away the deep impression this simple ballad would otherwise have made upon the feelings; for it is almost unnecessary to mention that its touching interest is made to centre in the boundless sorrow, and cureless remorse, of him who had been the unintentional cause of his brother's death—and in the solicitude which that high-minded and generous spirit expresses, even in the last agonies of nature, for the safety and fortunes of the truly wretched and unhappy survivor. Mr. Jamieson's addition is given below.—By that addition this ballad has been altered in one of its most distinctive and essential features; hence the present copy, which preserves the genuine reading in the stanza referred to, though it might have derived considerable improve- ments in other particulars from the one given by Mr. Jamieson, has, on the whole, been preferred.   The addition to the stanza in question is inclosed by crotchets.

They warstled up, they warstled down,   
The lee lang simmer's day;
[And nane was near to part the strife   
That raise atween them tway,
Till out and Willie's drawn his sword,   
And did his brother slay.]

__________________

There were twa brothers at the scule,
And when they got awa'—
"It's will ye play at the stane-chucking,   
Or will ye play at the ba',
Or will ye gae up to yon hill head,
And there we'll warsell a fa'."

When he sat in his father's chair
He grew baith pale and wan.
"O what blude's that upon your brow?
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude o' my gude gray steed,
He wadna ride wi' me."

"O thy steed's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek?
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude of my greyhound,
He wadna hunt for me."

"O thy hound's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me:
O what blude's this upon your cheek,
O dear son tell to me."
"It is the blude of my gay goss hawk,
He wadna flee for me."

"O thy hawk's blude was ne'er sae red,
Nor e'er sae dear to me;
O what blude's this upon your dirk?
Dear Willie tell to me."
"It is the blude of my ae brother,
O dule and wae is me."

"O what will ye say to your father?
Dear Willie tell to me."
"I'll saddle my steed, and awa I'll ride
To dwell in some far countrie."

"O when will ye come hame again?
Dear Wiilie tell to me."
"When sun and mune leap on yon hill,
And that will never be."

She turn'd hersel' right round about,   
And her heart burst into three:
"My ae best son is deid and gane,   
And my tother ane I'll ne'er see."


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 11:11 AM

Richie
Your guess is as good as anyone else's. All of them were mixing and matching and this is an example of the most basic process whereby two ballads are simply grafted together with no new material except perhaps the couplet that introduces stanza 12. At least this one is patently obvious


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 01:05 PM

Hi,

Although there's a mistake in Child (Kittredge) version I listed under Twa brothers but it's a version of Edward, usually changes in the text are carefully notated.

If it's a collation the source of the other text should be noted but it's not, or, I haven't found the reference.

I've started putting the US versions of Twa Bothers on my site, there are quite a few: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-49-the-twa-brothers.aspx

I don't have Hudson (Miss.) or Barry (Maine) or Cox A (WV). I anyone has these, please post one,

TY

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 04:01 PM

Ritchie - if the Cox versions you want are the ones from Folk-Songs of the South, I can put the two up later.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:17 AM

Hudson p 73 & p74

A "The Cruel Brother." Text recovered by Miss Lois Womble, Water Valley, from the singing of Miss Mamie Poindexter, Pine Valley.

Two little boys were going to school;
They were playmates for to be.
Willie said to johnnie,
"Can you throw a rock or toss a ball?"

"Oh, no, dear brother, I am too small
Tp throw a rock or toss a ball."

Willie took out his little dirt knife,    (dirk?)
Which was so keen and sharp.
He pierced it through little Johnnie's side;
He pierced it through his heart.

Willie took off his big white shirt
And tore it from gore to gore;
He tied it around little Johnnie's side,
Still bleeding more and more.

"Come pick me up, dear brother, I say,
And lay me out so straight;
Come pick me up, dear brother, I say,
And bury me by the gate.

"Go meet my mother on her way,
Who looks so unconcerned;
Tell her I'm gone to the old churchyard
My prayer books for to learn."

B coming up. I'd send you scans of all these but I'm between scanners at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:24 AM

B From a copy made by Mr. George F. Swetnam, University, from the singing of his mother, Mrs. Flora Stafford, Swetman, who learned the ballad from her mother in Ky.

He drew his sword all from his side,
.....................................
He pierced it through his own brother's heart,
And out the blood did pour.

"Brother, dear, take off my shirt,
Tear it from gore to gore;
And then tie up my bleeding wounds,
That they may bleed no more.

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My mother will ask for me.
Tell her I'm playing with my schoolmates
And will be at home early.

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My father will ask for me.
Tell him I'm gone to the north countrie
To learn my grammarie.

"Brother dear, when you go home
My sister will ask for me.
............................
..............................

"Brother dear, when you go home,
My truelove will ask for me.
Tell her I'm dead and in my cold grave laid
No more to see of me."

An incredibly powerful ballad in such a short text!


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 09:30 AM

Haven't got Barry but it might be repeated elsewhere. I'll check.
There's a version in JH Cox's FS from the South at p33 but not in his West Virginia book. Is the former what you're after? If that is so, it's your turn to post, Mick.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 10:09 AM

I haven't heard any differently, so following Steve's suggestion, I'll assume these are the versions you wanted from Cox: Folk-Songs of the South.

Mick





THE TWA BROTHERS
(Child, NO.49)

Two variants have been found in West Virginia under the titles: "The Two Brothers" and "Little Willie" (reported by COX, XLV, 160). A, although more or less fragmentary and confused, is pretty clearly related to Child B. No proper names are given. In B there are the names John and Willie, days of the week mentioned, the references to stone-throwing and ball-playing, and the deliberate use of the knife. In all these there is a strong similarity to Child G. Some striking likenesses in language are also to be noticed.

For American texts see Child, I, 443 (Massachusetts, New York); Journal, XXVI, 361 (Pound; Nebraska by way of Missouri); XXIX, 158 (Tolman; Indiana); XXX, 294, Kittredge from Belden; Missouri); McGill, p.54 (Kentucky); Campbell and Sharp, No.11 (North Carolina, Virginia); Sharp American English Folk-Songs, 1st Series, p.8 (Kentucky); Pound, No.18 (Missouri by way of Washington); Journal of the Folk-Song Society, VI, 87; Belden's Missouri collection. For references see Journal, XXX, 293. Add Bulletin, Nos.7, 9, 10.





A

"The Two Brothers." Communicated by Professor Walter Barnes, Fairmont, Marion County, April, 1915; obtained from Mrs.Charles Snider, Spencer, Roane County.

There were two brothers in a foreign land,
Their lessons for to learn;
Said the elder brother to the younger brother,
"Dear brother, let us play ball."

...
...
"I am too little, I am too young,
Dear brother, please leave me alone."

He had a knife all by his side,
Which was both keen and sharp;
He ran it through his brother's breast,
Which bled him to the heart.

"Now take my shirt all off my back,
And rip it from gore to gore,
And bind it round my bleeding side."
But still it bled the more.

"Now take me all upon your back
And carry me to yon churchyard,
And there dig me a fine big grave,
Which is both deep and wide.

"And if my father should ask for me,
Dear brother, when you go home,
Tell him I'm at school with my playmates,
And early I'll be home.

"And if my mother should ask for me,
Dear brother, when you go home,
Tell her I'm at school in a foreign land,
And early I'll come home.

"And if my schoolmates should ask for me,
Dear brother, when you come go home,
Tell them I'm dead and in my grave,
As cold as any stone."





B

"Little Willie." Contributed by Mr.John B. Adkin, Branchland, Lincoln County, April 1, 1916.

Two little boys a-going to school,
Two little boys were they;
I've often wished myself with them,
Their playmates for to be,
Their playmates for to be.

On Monday morning they started to school,
On Saturday they returned,
A-combing back their olivewood locks,
To see their parents at home,
To see their parents at home.

"O Willie, can you toss the ball,
Or can you throw a stone?"
"I am too little, I am too young,
Pray, brother, O leave me alone."

John pulled out his long, keen knife,
It being both keen and sharp;
Between the long ribs and the short
He pierced it to his heart,
He pierced it to his heart.

He then pulled off his olivewood shirt
And tore it from gore to gore;
Although to wrap the bleeding wound,
But still it bled the more,
But still it bled the more.

"Pick me up, dear brother," said he,
"And lay me out so straight;
O pick me up, dear brother," said he,
"And lay me at the gate,
And lay me at the gate.

"If you meet mother on the way
And she seems uncearned, [1]
Just tell her I'm going to the old campground,
My prayer book there to learn,
My prayer book there to learn."


[1] For concerned


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 05:24 PM

Richie
Have you got the 4 versions in Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England, Vol 1? Some of these are Edward hybrids and one is collected by Barry but in Vermont. The first version has a wonderful 27 stanzas. It's from George Edwards of Burlington, Vermont. The same version appeared in 'Ballads Migrant in New England'. This Barry version is also in Bulletin of the Folk Song Society of the North East Vol XI 1960.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:40 AM

Hi,

Thanks for the versions. Haven't posted since the slowdown.

I'm on child 53, Young Beichan which is a monster. I have a couple English version not found on the web and have reproduced The Loving Ballad of Lord Bateman w/illustrations here:

Young Bicham- Jamieson-Brown c.1783 Child A
Young Brechin- Glenriddell 1791; Child B
Young Bekie- Jamieson-Brown 1783 Child C
Young Beachen- Skene MS c.1802 Child D
Young Beichan and Susie Pye- 1806 Child E
Susan Pye and Lord Beichan- c.1817 Child F
Lord Beekin- Walker (Mt Pleasant) pre-1873 Child G
Lord Beichan and Susie Pye- Kinloch 1827 Child H
Young Bechin- Dodds (Haddington) c.1873 Child I
Young Beichan- Robertson c.1829 Child J
Lord Bechin- Dickson (Rentonhall) c.1873 Child K
The Loving Ballad of Lord Bateman- 1839 Child L
Young Bondwell- Buchan MS c.1828; Child M
Susan Py, or Young Bichen's Garland- 1815 Child N
Earl Bichet- Greenwood (London) 1806 Child O

Lord Bateman- Withington (Edgmond) c. 1870s
Lord Beichan- (Aberdeenshire) 1876 Christie
Ye Loving Ballad of Lorde Bateman- Crawhall 1883
Lord Bateman- Holt (Alderhill) 1891 Kidson
Lord Bateman- Wray (Lincolnshire) 1904 Grainger B
Lord Bateman- Kidson (Two Melodies) pre-1904
Lord Bateman- Larcombe (Somerset) 1906 Sharp
Lord Bateman- Taylor (Lincolnshire) 1906 Grainger A


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 10:48 AM

Hi,

Here's the link to Dickens/Thackeray The Loving Ballad of Lord Bateman w/illustrations:

http://bluegrassmessengers.com/the-loving-ballad-of-lord-bateman--1839-child-l.aspx

I'm missing two English versions anyone have lyrics?

1.A copy in Rev. John Broadwood's 'Sussex Songs,' 1840, and reprinted in 'Sussex Songs,' Lucas and Weber."

2. One in 'Northumbrian Minstrelsy,' 1882, 'Lord Beichan.'

The tradtional US versions I have so far are here: http://bluegrassmessengers.com/us--canada-versions-53-young-beichan.aspx

There are over 70, haven't counted them yet. Don't have Barry's Maine Ballads or Flanders, Ancient Ballads Traditionally Sung in New England.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 02:41 PM

Richie

Here's the version from the Minstrelsy. You can actually download a copy from archive.org. In fact I used a djvu copy I'd downloaded from there to get the main text below; but as the ocr has inevitable errors I proofread it against my paper copy of the book.

Mick



LORD BEICHAN

Lord Beichan was a noble lord,
A noble lord of high degree;
He shipped himself on board a ship,
He longed strange countries for to see.

He sailed east, he sailed west,
Until he came to proud Turkey,
Where he was ta'en by a savage Moor,
Who handled him right cruellie.

For he viewed the fashions of that land,
Their way of worship viewed he;
But to Mahound or Termagant
Would Beichan never bend a knee.

So on each shoulder they've putten a bore,
In each bore they've putten a tye,
And they have made him trail the wine,
And spices on his fair bodie.

They've casten him in a donjon deep
Where he could neither hear nor see;
For seven long years they've kept him there,
Till he for hunger's like to dee.

And in his prison a tree there grew,
So stout and strong there grew a tree,
And unto it was Beichan chained,
Until his life was most weary.

This Turk he had one only daughter,
Fairer creature did eyes ne'er see;
And every day as she took the air,
Near Beichan's prison passed she.

And bonny, meek, and mild was she,
Tho' she was come of an ill kin;
And oft she sighed, she knew not why,
For him that lay the donjon in.

O! so it fell upon a day,
She heard young Beichan sadly sing;
And aye and ever in her ears,
The tones of hapless sorrow ring —

"My hounds they all go masterless,
My hawks they flee from tree to tree,
My younger brother will heir my land,
Fair England again I'll never see."

And all night long no rest she got,
Young Beichan's song for thinking on;
She's stown the keys from her father's head,
And to the prison strong is gone.

And she has ope'd the prison doors,
I wot she opened two or three,
Ere she could come young Beichan at —
He was locked up so curiouslie.

But when she came young Beichan before,
Sore wondered he that maid to see !
He took her for some fair captive —
"Fair ladye, I pray of what countrie?"

"Have you got houses? have you got land?
Or does Northumberland 'long to thee?
What would ye give to the fair young ladye
That out of prison would set you free?"

"I have got houses, I have got lands,
And half Northumberland 'longs to me —
I'll give them all to the ladye fair
That out of prison will set me free.

"Near London town I have a hall,
With other castles two or three;
I'll give them all to the ladye fair
That out of prison will set me free."

"Give me the troth of your right hand,
The troth of it give unto me,
That for seven years ye'll no lady wed,
Unless it be along with me."

"I'll give thee troth of my right hand,
The troth of it I'll freely gie,
That for seven years I'll stay unwed,
For kindness thou dost show to me."

And she has bribed the proud warder,
With golden store and white money,
She's gotten the keys of the prison strong,
And she has set young Beichan free.

She's gi'en him to eat the good spice cake,
She's gi'en him to drink the blood-red wine;
And every health she drank unto him —
"I wish, Lord Beichan, that you were mine;"
And she's bidden him sometimes think on her
That so kindly freed him out of pine.

She's broken a ring from off her finger,
And to Beichan half of it gave she:
"Keep it to mind you of that love
The lady bore that set you free."

O she took him to her father's harbour,
And a ship of fame to him gave she;
"Farewell, farewell to you, Lord Beichan,
Shall I e'er again you see ?

"Set your foot on the good ship board,
And haste ye back to your own countrie,
And before seven years have an end
Come back again, love, and marry me."

Now seven long years are gone and past,
And sore she longed her love to see,
For ever a voice within her breast
Said "Beichan has broken his vow to thee."
So she's set her foot on the good ship board,
And turned her back on her own countrie.

She sailed east, she sailed west,
Till to fair England's shore came she,
Where a bonnie shepherd she espied,
Feeding his sheep upon the lea.

"What news, what news, thou bonnie shepherd ?
What news hast thou to tell to me?"
"Such news I hear, ladye," he said,
"The like was never in this countrie.

"There is a wedding in yonder hall,
(I hear the sound of the minstrelsie),
But young Lord Beichan slights his bride
For love of one that's ayond the sea."

She's putten her hand in her pocket,
Gi'en him the gold and white monie —
"Here, take ye that, my bonnie boy,
For the good news thou tell'st to me."

When she came to Lord Beichan's gate
She tirled softly at the pin,
And ready was the proud warder
To open and let this ladye in.

When she came to Lord Beichan's castle,
So boldly she rang the bell —
"Who's there? who's there?" cried the proud porter,
"Who's there? unto me come tell?"

"O! is this Lord Beichan's castle?
Or is that noble lord within?"
"Yea, he's in the hall among them all,
And this is the day of his weddin'."

"And has he wed another love,
And has he clean forgotten me?"
And sighing, said that ladye gay:
"I wish I was in my own countrie."

And she has ta'en her gay gold ring,
That with her love she brake so free —
"Gie him that, ye proud porter,
And bid the bridegroom speak to me.

"Tell him to send me a slice of bread,
And a cup of blood-red wine,
And not to forget the fair young ladye
That did release him out of pine."

Away and away went the proud porter,
Away and away and away went he,
Until he came to Lord Beichan's presence,
Down he fell on his bended knee.
"What aileth thee, my proud porter,
Thou art so full of courtesie?"

"I have been porter at your gates,
Its thirty long years now, and three,
But there stands a ladye at them now
The like of her I ne'er did see.

"For on every finger she has a ring,
And on her mid-finger she has three,
And as much gay gold above her brow
As would an earldom buy to me;
And as much gay clothing round about her
As would buy all Northumberlea."

Its out then spak' the bride's mother —
Aye, and an angry woman was she —
"Ye might have excepted the bonnie bride,
And two or three of our companie."

"O hold your tongue, ye silly frow,
Of all your folly let me be,
She's ten times fairer than the bride
And all that's in your companie.

"She asks one sheave of my lord's white bread,
And a cup of his red, red wine;
And to remember the ladye's love
That kindly freed him out of pine."

Lord Beichan then in a passion flew,
And broke his sword in splinters three—
"O, well a day," did Beichan say,
"That I so soon should married be;
For it can be none but dear Saphia
That's crossed the deep for love of me."

And quickly hied he down the stair,
Of fifteen steps he made but three,
He's ta'en his bonnie love in his arms,
And kist and kist her tenderlie.

"O, have you taken another bride,
And have ye quite forgotten me,
And have ye quite forgotten one
That gave you life and libertie?"

She looked over her left shouther,
To hide the tears stood in her e'e —
"Now fare thee well, young Beichan," she says,
"I'll try to think no more on thee."

"O! never, never, my Saphia,
For surely this can never be,
Nor ever shall I wed but her
That's done and dreed so much for me."

Then out and spak' the forenoon bride —
"My lord, your love is changed soon;
At morning I am made your bride,
And another's choose ere it be noon!"

"O sorrow not, thou forenoon bride,
Our hearts could ne'er united be,
You must return to your own countrie,
A double dower I'll send with thee."

And up and spak' the young bride's mother,
Who never was heard to speak so free —
"And so you treat my only daughter,
Because Saphia has cross'd the sea."

"I own I made a bride of your daughter,
She ne'er a whit the worse can be,
She came to me with her horse and saddle,
She may go back in her coach and three."

He's ta'en Saphia by the white hand,
And gently led her up and down,
And aye as he kist her rosy lips,
"Ye're welcome, dear one, to your own."

He's ta'en her by the milk-white hand,
And led her to yon fountain stane,
Her name he's changed from Saphia,
And he's called his bonny love Lady Jane.

Lord Beichan prepared another marriage,
And sang with heart so full of glee —
"I'll range no more in foreign countries,
Now since my love has crossed the sea."




Notes:
There are several versions of this highly popular and apparently
ancient ballad in the works of Jamieson, Kinloch, Motherwell, &c,
and in the "Local Historian's Table Book,"vol. II., p. 20, New-
castle-upon-Tyne, 1842, the last being an English traditional version
communicated by Mr. J. H. Dixon, of Seaton Carew.
Jamieson suggests that the name of the hero should be not
"Beichan,"but "Buchan;" and another editor or annotator (Percy
Society Publications, No. 43) surmises "that the hero was one of
the ancient and noble border family of 'Bertram;'" whilst Mother-
well refers the ballad to an incident in the life of Gilbert, father of
the celebrated Thomas a Becket. In this opinion he is supported
by Professor Child, of Boston, U.S.A. There is also the popular song
of "Lord Bateman,"a ludicrously corrupt copy of this ballad, an
edition of which (in the Cockney vernacular, with comic illustrations
by George Cruickshanks, and notes of a burlesque character) was
published by Tilt, of London, many years ago, containing the air to
which the ballad was sung in the South of England — totally different
from the Northern melody, which is here given.



Source: Bruce & Stokoe: Northumbrian Minstrelsy, 1882.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 05:42 PM

The burlesque version which seems to have dominated in England is derived from broadsides which in turn derived from the Cruikshank publication. Like many of the burlesques of serious traditional ballads the burlesque got back into oral tradition via the broadsides and so became serious again in some cases. Those that had been rendered in some comic dialect form remained comic ballads.

I collected a version of Lord Bateman which was half sung, half recited, which can be found on the British Library National Sound Archive website. It is pretty much verbatim the broadside.

If I get time over the next few days I'll post the Broadwood version and the Flanders ones, unless someone beats me to it.

I'm still without a scanner. My new computer doesn't recognise my Lexmark X1150 all-in-one.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 29 Feb 12 - 09:45 PM

Thanks,

Mick- I did look in the internet archive, maybe there's a different search engine for other parts of it. I'd like to find the original to see if I can copy the music.

Richie


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:23 AM

I'll try and get the link for the Minstrelsy. In the meantime, the tunes are available in abc format from our own Jack Campin's site: Northumbrian Minstrelsy tunes. Lord Beichan in X:13.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 03:30 AM

Richie

Here's a link for a copy of the Minstrelsy at archive.org: A Collection of the Ballads.... (Searching for Northumbrian Minstrelsy didn't find it; I did an advanced search for Bruce Stokoe in the Creator field.)


Mick


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 01:01 PM

The Broadwood one is quite easy. The note says 'The 1843 and 1889 versions contain only the first verse. The other 19 verses are taken from a Catnach broadside.'

No point in giving you the broadside verses as I'm sure they'll be on the Bodl or you'll already have them. Here's the first verse from Lewis Jones's 1995 reprint:

Lord Bateman he had a mind to travel
Into some foreign country;
Where he was taken and put in prison,
Till of his life he was quite weary.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 01:31 PM

Wow!
Flanders, 'Ancient Ballads' is the direct opposite of Broadwood. There are 22 pretty full versions. Sorry to bow out here but even with a scanner that's 60 pages. I think you'll have to pay a visit to the library. That's a shitload of versions.

Thanks for the printer advice by PM, Mick. I've emailed Lexmark for advice.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 01 Mar 12 - 01:37 PM

Richie,
I'm not sure about the mechanics and ethics of such things, but this thread is obviously going to run and run. The longer it gets the longer it takes to download, even on my much faster new computer. Anyone with a computer stuffed up like my old one might give up before they get to the bottom. Have you considered starting a new thread, Child Ballads: US Versions Part 2?


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Mar 12 - 04:18 PM

Richie,
Thanks to Mick's advice I now have my scanner back in operation.
You may already have some of the texts in Flanders. What I could do is send you a list of versions and sources then you could tell me which ones you haven't already got, rather than try to scan all 60 pages.


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Subject: RE: Child Ballads: US Versions
From: Richie
Date: 06 Mar 12 - 08:53 AM

Hi,

The only Flanders text I have is Lord Bakeman- Kennison (Vermont) 1930 Flanders.

If you get rought text scanned you can email it to me and I'll fix it. I'll try to get a copy of the book too.

I'll start another thread today- please put additional there.

TY

Richie


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