BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:47 PM

Sorry to disappoint you Jim.

YOU are the one who has been shown by your own posts here to be an anti-Semite by EU standards.

The others you mention have not posted here, so we cannot judge them.

"YOU have been judged, and found wanting."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:53 PM

"As you have declared Chomsky antisemitic...."

I stopped reading right there because you are lying again with the first six words of your post so the remainder of your post has no credibility to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 01:54 PM

Jim would rather lie for no reason than to provide facts to support his own viewpoint.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:00 PM

OK, let's 'bottom line' this...Greg or Jim, What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:35 PM

Go back to sleep, Goofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 02:40 PM

In other words, GregF,

YOU refuse to engage in a reasonable discussion, and will not tell us what YOUR solution would be.

That is what I expect from you. No surprises here.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:15 PM

"What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?"
What they should have done on day one - go to the negotiating table with an intetion of reaching a compromise with the Palestinians rather than a set shopping list.
The U.N. has suggested as much today and the only alternative seems to be a replay of the Holocaust - this time with Arabs as the victims and the Israelis as the perps.
We all know that Israel has the biggest conker in the playground; let's see if it has the nouse and humanity to accept that human beings come before scraps of paper drawn up by politicians who wanted out of Palestine at any cost.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:25 PM

Any chance that the likes of beardedbruce could lay off for a while to allow for intelligent people to get a word in?

I point out the criminal acts of the Israeli army and he takes it as me saying positive things about Hamas.

If you don't have the intelligence to get beyond "if he dislikes Israeli crime, he must support Palestinian crime" you aren't really up to debate. Bad enough Poobad without him gaining a glove puppet.

When does Keith come back from Jockland? At least he doesn't give his own views, largely through not having any...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 03:28 PM

Musket,

You have failed to point out any illegal acts by Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 05:59 PM

Jim, and who should ensure that whatever negotiated lands conceded, won't be used to fortify, and launch another attack on Israel??...being as that IS the history..and who should take action, if they did launch??

Musket: "Any chance that the likes of beardedbruce could lay off for a while to allow for intelligent people to get a word in?"

Any chance that the likes of Musket could lay off attacking, for a while, to allow himself to say something intelligent, to get a real thought in, worth listening to?

Any chance that the likes of Greg F. could lay off avoiding by attacking, for a while, to allow himself to say something intelligent, to get a real thought in, worth listening to?


Here, contemplate this one.....we'll be awaiting a salient answer..

"OK, let's 'bottom line' this... What should Israel DO, in your opinion, after missiles are fired at them?"

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:08 PM

Ok Goofus. Kill hundreds of children indiscriminately?

Cause a refugee crisis and expect others to pick up the tab?

Tell you what Bruce. You tell me what Israel is doing that is legal under international law and their obligations under membership of The UN. Your answer will be much shorter.

On BBC news today, a 12 year old boy told of his school bombed and his father, a teacher there, killed by Israeli bombs. He asked the reporter who was to teach him now? The reporter had tears in her eyes, which was a bit of a coincidence.

Perhaps the more bloodthirsty members of Mudcat might reflect on what they cheer for?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 06:38 PM

Amid a rising chorus of condemnation of the steep civilian death toll in Gaza – there were 172 fatalities in total by Palestinian accounts as of Monday – a senior Israeli air force commander who has flown combat sorties all throughout the past week asserted that the fact-checking of possible targets and in-air awareness of his pilots to the possibility of harming civilians is unrivaled.

Get The Times of Israel's Daily Edition by email
and never miss our top stories   Free Sign up!

"I don't think there's an equivalent anywhere in the world," said Lt. Col. T, the commander of a squadron of F-16Is, the air force's most advanced model of that aircraft. "And I am familiar with many other air forces."

Read more: 'Slightest doubt' cancels mission, says top Israeli pilot | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/slightest-doubt-cancels-mission-says-iaf-officer/#ixzz37U8ZVbj2
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 14 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM

awareness of his pilots to the possibility of harming civilians.

Of COURSE they're "aware if it" - they're IMPLEMENTING it & heading for 200 as I type this.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:46 AM

Musket: "Ok Goofus. Kill hundreds of children indiscriminately?
Cause a refugee crisis and expect others to pick up the tab?.....blah blah, radda-cradda guff-guff...."

What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:52 AM

'"What should Israel DO after missiles are fired at them?"
What they should have done on day one - go to the negotiating table'

.,,.

You're turning into a bit of a parrot, as well as an ostrich, Jim.

Once again: don't tell us; don't tell Israel...

Tell Hamas. Again. And see how far it gets you. Again.

The rest of the Arab countries can negotiate with Israel till they are all blue in the face. But they can't control Hamas, who are in fact the only entity worth considering, and who won't take a blind bit of notice. You know it perfectly well. So stop squawking "negotiate" like some sort of demented parrot.

Please.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:59 AM

Watch the harrowing footage on BBC News then see if you can type that again Michael.

Every time Israel starts negotiating, American aid is threatened and within months, a more right wing approach is sought to appease the ultra orthodox and their Western backers.

That the Israeli military are having to churn out propaganda about surgical strikes that somehow don't cause collateral damage is testament to the more pragmatic Israeli public who are uncomfortable with theocratic approaches to peace and harmony.

Mind you, when you aim at schools, chances are you bomb them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 02:59 AM

"You're turning into a bit of a parrot, as well as an ostrich, Jim. "
Ss you are Mike - only you appear to have swallowed a copy of 'Pride and Prejudice'
"Tell Hamas"
And what - the Israelis will take down their Berlin walls, remove the blockade, stop building settlements, stop using heavy artillery, chemicals and bombs on homes hospitals and schools, stop truning israel into the Apartheid state it is becoming, stop ethnic cleansing the Bedouins....?
Yeah - sure they will!!
What Hamas is doing is stupid, counter-productive and futile; it is damaging to the Palestinian people - it is little more than "I may not be able to fight, but I can spit".
What Israel is doing is murderously inhuman - Israeli response is on well the way to being a major war crime against the civilian population of Gaza.   
Israel has shown over and over again, particularly during the last peace talks, that it has no interest in any negotiation that doesn't include continued expansion and continued military domination of the lands that both Arab and Jew have a right to - they are the aggressors here and their behaviour needs to be challenged - as far as I am concerned, the question belongs at the Conference table, under the scrutiny of the U.N. and in full view of the world.
Stop strutting around like a wannaby Mr Darcy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 03:42 AM

Just one more try -- for all the good it will do me! ---

I agree with pretty well all your criticisms of and animadversions against Israel, Jim. But they have at least made some gestures towards negotiation, however hedged about you find their offers -- which negotiation might well influence if it could just occur. Hamas, OTOH, have explicitly & aggressively rejected any such procedures. So whoever may sit at this table of yours, even "under the scrutiny of" the Lord Jesus Christ and "in full view of" the Lord God Almighty, it will be but a vain proceeding if Hamas are not party to it, because none of the other potential conferees can control them and they are really the only entity that matters.

You know this perfectly well -- so just, please, apply a bit of Sense And Sensibility to the matter, and stop declaiming platitudes like a demented Revd Mr Collins.

Regards

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:15 AM

"But they have at least made some gestures towards negotiation,"
Gestures only - as long as nothing changed, which does not help the besieged Palestinian people one iota.
The last peace talks were deliberately sabotaged by the Israelis from day one.
You give no alternative other than the Palestinians surrender to Israeli aggression and return to the status quo - if there is anything we both know, it is that is is unacceptable and simply is not going to happen
Negotiation or genocide
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 04:37 AM

Agreed, Jim. But "negotiation" with whom, will you please respond? Without Hamas being one of the parties, these negotiations will attain no viable or enforceable conclusion, because Hamas, over whom the other potential participants have no control, are the most essential of participants. And you know that isn't going to happen.

So what's your next principled but unattainable proposal, eh?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:30 AM

If Israel says it won't negotiate where Hamas is involved, then Palestine is entitled to say that it won't negotiate with those responsible for what is happening at present - stalemate.
I have no brief whatever for Hamas or their behaviour in this, but they form the only resistance to Israel - without their actions, there is no opposition to Israeli aggression at the present time.
Refusing to negotiate with them is equal to refusing to negotiate with anybody who had anything to do with all those resistance groups fighting for The State of Israel - we may not be happy with how they went about thing, but they were very much a fact of life (or death).
Some of the old resistance fighters became heroes, even national leaders.
The situation is not unsimilar to what happened in Ireland in the 70s and 80s - I am no lover of the I.R.A., but I have no doubt that their presence brought Britain to the conference table and achieved some sort of peace.
Needs must.... and all that.
In my opinion, in the end, both have to agree to put the matter into the hands of the U.N - unless, of course, Egypt manages to pull something out of the hat - but that has only short term aims.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:32 AM

"Israel's cabinet said Tuesday morning it would accept an Egyptian proposal for a ceasfire with Hamas, after seven days of fighting, but Hamas was quick to reject the offer, resuming rocket salvos across the country. Earlier, two rockets hit the city of Eilat at Israel's southernmost tip on Monday night, lightly injuring four people in the first attack on the city since the Gaza campaign began."

Read more: Rocket shot at Haifa as Netanyahu threatens to step up Gaza op | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/ceasefire-proposed-after-a-week-of-israel-hamas-conflict/#ixzz37X2hjb5o
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 06:51 AM

Jim -- Will you get it into your head, please? - as bobad has just pointed out ~~ It is Hamas who say they won't negotiate with Israel, NOT vice versa. So your last post might as well be written in Martian for all the sense it makes.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:17 AM

That is not correct, Michael. The Israeli regime has declared that it will not negotiate with Hamas until Hamas declares that Israel has a right to exist and stops firing rockets. The Israeli regime knows full well that those conditions will not be met. And, even if they were met, it's a good bet that Israel would find another way of not negotiating. And, even if the two sides ever sit down, Israel need not make a single concession. They have the full unconditional backing of the US, including the bankrolling of their military, no matter how many children or old people they bomb to hell or how much land they steal or how many resolutions they ignore.

The Israeli people are the only ones with the answer. They have to realise that they keep on electing regimes that can only perpetuate the insecurity which they endure. I think Hamas is wrong to fail to recognise Israel, but that is a red herring. Hamas also has to answer to its people and the wider middle east beyond. The non-recognition of Israel has to quietly slide away, as empty, nonsensical rhetoric often has a habit of doing (ask Ian Paisley). No-one has to capitulate. Waiting for someone to capitulate just gets more people killed.

In the meantime, Israeli regime apologists, consider what's going on with ordinary people in Gaza every day. Or turn the telly off. Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:41 AM

"According to the ceasefire proposal, after some 48 hours representatives of both Israel and Hamas will go to Cairo and work out the details of what is expected to be a more long-term deal. Israeli officials stressed that the Israeli team, which has not yet been named, will speak only with the Egyptians, and not with Hamas."


Israel accepts Egyptian ceasefire initiative to stop Gaza hostilities

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 07:55 AM

"You tell me what Israel is doing that is legal under international law and their obligations under membership of The UN. Your answer will be much shorter. "

The attacks against Hamas rocket launchers are acknowledged as legal.

IF Israel were to invade Gaza, to apprehend the Hamas individuals responsible for the rockets ( to bring them to trial for crimes against humanity) and to destroy the remaining rockets and their launch sites, that would be legal.


According to the LAW, Israel would be within it's rights to continue the present bombing campaign indefinitely, as long as Hamas continues to launch rockets.


I have answered YOU:
So tell me what Hamas has done that is legal UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW and THEIR obligations HAVING SIGNED THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS????

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM

""I think Hamas is wrong to fail to recognise Israel, but that is a red herring.""

One persons red herring could, well be, another persons bluefin tuna. I suspect issues may seem quite different from the lenses of those involved directly in this never-ending and unfortunate (for civilians) conflict.

IMO, Much of the discussion on this issue rests on the assumption that one's own biases and arguments calibrate to "normal" and those seeing things differently fall on the other side of the scale.

""One man's centrism is another's extremism"". The challenge of identifying "neutral", and unbiased perspective remains a non-trivial problem - with an elusive resolution. Assuming, one finds it's necessary to take sides in a complex conflict, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 08:24 AM

" It is Hamas who say they won't negotiate with Israel, NOT vice versa."
'Fraid not Mike - Israel has stated that they will not negotiate with Hamas - it was part of their excuse for behaving as they did following the breakdown of the last peace talks.
"The attacks against Hamas rocket launchers are acknowledged as legal"
The attacks against the Palestinian civilian population are not recognised as legal and are now being described as verging on War Crimes by the United Nations.
"According to the LAW, Israel would be within it's rights to continue the present bombing campaign indefinitely"
No it wouldn't, but it will continue to do so anyway unless outside intervention prevents it from doing so.
As far as The United Nations and war crimes is concerned, Israel has relied on the U.S. vetoing condemnatory resolutions in order to stay out of the human rights courts, though wether they will continue to do so remains to be seen..
The situation is comparable to Russia and China using their veto to protect Syria.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:04 AM

Hamas can't sign The Geneva Convention, because they aren't a country, silly cunt. In government, they can sign but that's like saying The Conservative Party signed the Geneva Convention but Labour didn't.

If bombing civilians is legal, then the holocaust was for the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 09:09 AM

Musket,

The PALESTINIAN Authority signed the Geneva Conventions.
Hamas is now part of THAT government.

Israel's attacks on the launchers ARE NOT aimed at civilians- they were warned, and ANY such civilian casualties is as a result of the WAR CRIME OF HAMAS USING HUMAN SHIELDS and locating military sites in civilian areas, against the Geneva Conventions.




Israel is acting legally, whether YOU like it or not.

Hamas is guilty of war crimes, whether YOU like it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:07 AM

Well, BB, there's technical legality, and then there's practical morality......

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:12 AM

"Well, BB, there's technical legality, and then there's practical morality...... "

Agreed! That is precisely why Hamas bears moral responsibility for the death and injury of every single citizen of Gaza. If they had not initiated the present situation there would not have been one single casualty.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:23 AM

Rather fatuous application of "morality"[sic]there, Boo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:29 AM

GregF,

We know that YOU consider killing Jews "moral", but the rest of us do not ( with the probable exception of Jim).

What the Israelis are doing is far more moral than the requirements of the law.

What Hamas is doing is both a war crime, and is immoral by any reasonable standard.

So of course YOU support Hamas in using human shields and attacking civilian populations with mass antipersonnel rockets.

After all, it is only Jews and Palestinians being killed or threatened- neither of which seems to bother you and Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:34 AM

I rather think the murderers pressing the buttons from their safe military compounds or cockpits are morally responsible for the deaths don't you?

If you wish to spread it out, then add the Israeli government and their financial backers who blackmail the US government.

There is nothing legal about what Israel are doing. They have been told to stop, in fact were told not to start. It is war crime as it is neither defensive nor sanctioned by UN. Homes, schools, power sub stations and water supply establishments are not legitimate targets.

Netanyahu may as well book his court early to avoid disappointment in The Hague.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:38 AM

Musket,

YOU are wrong.

You have not addressed any of the legal points, and merely made pronouncements from ignorance.





Hamas is legally responsible for their illegal bombardment, and their illegal use of human shields.


Why do YOU keep defending that? THAT is what is killing Palestinians.


Or is it that YOU want to see Palestinians killed, as long as you can ( wrongly) blame it on Israel? THAT is Hamas's reason for their refusal to stop, after Israel unilaterally accepted the cease-fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:39 AM

We know that YOU consider killing Jews "moral"

"We" do, BeardedBullshit? Fascinating.And predictably stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:40 AM

"Why do YOU keep defending that?"

Do you really have to ask?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:44 AM

GregF,

I thought you could read-

Obviously I overestimated you.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 10:45 AM

"We" indicates anyone who bothers to read your posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:08 AM

About the ceasefire that Hamas rejected ( so that more Palestinians will die):

"It's also important to note that the Arab League, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas (who heads Hamas' rival Fatah), and the United States all endorsed the proposal.

Why Israel accepted it

Despite rejection of the ceasefire by two right-leaning members in Israel's cabinet, there was no reason for Israel not to accept it.

What now?

Hamas will continue to fire rockets and Israel will likely continue to respond with airstrikes and possibly a ground invasion if things get bad. Until Hamas finds a way to declare some kind of victory, it will continue to fight.

In a statement on Tuesday, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu offered this assessment:

If Hamas rejects the Egyptian proposal and the rocket fire from Gaza does not cease, and that appears to be the case, we are prepared to continue and intensify our operation."
Hamas launched over 50 rockets from Gaza into Israel into the afternoon while Israel held its fire. The Israeli cessation is reportedly over and they have resumed airstrikes."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

Looks Like they're having an absolutely GREAT tme! Pass the popcorn, please!

Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats

JULY 14, 2014
By ROBERT MACKEY

Last Wednesday night, as he stood on a hilltop outside the Israeli town of Sderot and watched the bombardment of Gaza on the plain below, a Danish newspaper reporter snapped an iPhone photo of about a dozen locals who cheered on their military from plastic chairs while eating popcorn.

Allan Sørensen, a veteran Middle East correspondent for Denmark's Kristeligt Dagblad, then uploaded the image to Twitter with a sardonic caption that described the macabre scene as "Sderot cinema."
Continue reading the main story

The image of the Israeli spectators was taken after 9 p.m. local time on Wednesday, the reporter said, about the same time that what was intended to be a "precision strike" from Israel's military killed at least eight of their Palestinian neighbors, seated in similar plastic chairs at a beachside cafe in Gaza, waiting to watch the World Cup semifinal between Argentina and the Netherlands.

As his image reverberated around the social network, where it was shared more than 10,000 times, the reporter was surprised by the response. It was, he said in a telephone interview from Israel, "nothing new." Similar scenes, of Israeli spectators gathered on the high ground above Gaza to view the destruction below, were documented in a Times of London article and a video report from Denmark's TV2 during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.



PHOTO HERE

Photo:
Israelis gathered on a hilltop outside the town of Sderot on Monday to watch the bombardment of Gaza. Credit Lefteris Pitarakis/Associated Press

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:02 PM

A video showing Palestinians chanting "Allahu Akbar" a few days ago, as they watched rockets fired from Gaza into Israel.



popcorn for both sides, unfortunately 

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:03 PM

No mention of the photo in that article of the house in that town with a hole in it from a Hamas rocket?


"Explaining that he has also previously witnessed Palestinians cheering news of bombings that killed Israelis, Mr. Sørensen said that, in a war, "this is what happens." Civilians and fighters on both sides, he said, "go through a process of dehumanizing the enemy.""

Or the comments by the author that he understood the people in the town had been under constant rocket attack for the last 14 years?

"When he was a candidate for the American presidency in 2008, then-Senator Barack Obama visited the town and saluted "the brave citizens" of Sderot while standing in front of a collection of spent rockets that had been fired at them from Gaza. He was also presented with an "I Love Sderot" T-shirt that channeled the dark humor of the residents, with the image of a heart on its front pierced by a rocket."

"Mr. Sørensen, who stressed that he has "a complete understanding of what the people of Sderot have been going through for 14 years," attributed the particularly vitriolic response to his Twitter report to the climate in Israel since three young religious students were kidnapped and murdered in the occupied West Bank last month. The journalist called the "extreme incitement to violence from very right-wing Israeli groups unprecedented" in the many years he has been reporting from the region."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

How many dead in the town of Sderot from rockets, BB?

And do look at the joy on the faces of the Israelis in the photo.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:42 PM

"According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics (CBS), at the end of 2011 the city had a total population of 24,000.[1] The city has been an ongoing target of Qassam rocket attacks from the Gaza Strip since 2001.

Sderot is located less than a mile from Gaza (the closest point is 840 m).[2] Rocket attacks on the city have killed 13 Israelis, wounded dozens, caused millions of dollars in damage and profoundly disrupted daily life.[3] Studies have found that air raid sirens and explosions have caused severe psychological trauma in some residents.[4] From mid-June 2007 to mid-February 2008, 771 rockets and 857 mortar bombs were fired at Sderot and the western Negev, an average of three or four each a day.[5] Popular for having numerous Bomb shelters some of which are built in the form of Children's Play areas in school play grounds, Sderot is infamously referred to as The "Bomb Shelter Capital of the World.""

Now, how about the smiles and cheers of Palestinians as those rockets are launched at israeli civilians?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:51 PM

"Taking Sderot as a case study, Kaplan and Zucker applied shrapnel/casualty and spatial allocation models to the population of the town to estimate casualties per randomly aimed rocket fired in the absence of civil defenses.

With civil defense measures in place, Sderot sustained 5,000 rockets between 2001 and 2010, and 90 percent of residents experienced a rocket landing on their street or on the one adjacent to theirs. But 10 residents were killed during this time, and less than 500 sustained injuries.

A Sderot lacking civil defenses, the researchers found, in "an intermediate daytime scenario, would result in 75 rather than 10 deaths in Sderot between 2001 and 2010," the researchers found.

"The results were very clear," Kaplan told the Post. "In the best case, there would be three times as many casualties as observed in Sderot. In the worst case, there would be nine times as many casualties. In the intermediate case – which we would argue best describes 'a day in the life of Sderot' – there would be seven times as many casualties.""

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:54 PM

But Hamas would rather use human shields and kill as many Palestinians as possible.


From your posts, we know that YOU, GregF, do not care about Palestinian deaths except as a way of attacking Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 12:57 PM

Al Jazeera published a list of those killed in Gaza. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html. The majority are combatant aged males. In 2009 Hamas admitted, after several months, that 80% of the dead in that conflict were Hamas combatants.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 14 - 01:02 PM

"Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. As of November 2012, the attacks have killed 64 people, mostly civilians, and injured thousands, but their main effect is their creation of widespread psychological trauma and disruption of daily life among the Israeli populace.[1] Medical studies in Sderot, the Israeli city closest to the Gaza Strip, have documented a post-traumatic stress disorder incidence among young children of almost 50%, as well as high rates of depression and miscarriage.[2][3][4] A public opinion poll conducted in March 2013 found that most Palestinians do not support firing rockets at Israel from the Gaza Strip.[5]

The weapons, often generically referred to as Qassams, were initially crude and short-range, mainly affecting Sderot and other communities bordering the Gaza Strip. However, in 2006 more sophisticated rockets began to be deployed, reaching the larger coastal city of Ashkelon, and by early 2009 major cities Ashdod and Beersheba had been hit by Katyusha, WS-1B[6] and Grad rockets.[7] In 2012, Jerusalem and Israel's commercial center Tel Aviv were targeted with locally made "M-75" and Iranian Fajr-5 rockets, respectively,[8] and in July 2014, the northern city of Haifa was targeted for the first time.[9] A few projectiles have contained white phosphorus.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16]

Attacks have been carried out by all Palestinian armed groups,[17] and, prior to the 2008–2009 Gaza War, were consistently supported by most Palestinians,[18][19][20][21] although the stated goals have been mixed. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by United Nations, European Union and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. Indiscriminate attacks on civilians and civilian structures that do not discriminate between civilians and military targets are illegal under international law.[22][23]"