BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:09 PM

"You want facts, so here's an inconvenient one for you. Hamas does not kill its own civilians." - Steve Shaw

A brief google search 'hamas kills palestinians' produces rather quickly several articles, including one in The Guardian citing Human Rights Watch, showing that that is not true.

Also, no matter how much you tell us that Hamas is not proximately responsible for Gazan civilian deaths, the more I believe that you really don't seem to care about those deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:14 PM

it takes to tango

But the tango don't go too well if one participant is ten foot three and the other is four foot nine.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:14 PM

Ed T: "More importantly, such an attempt would surely be seen as not reasonable nor logical. We are logical people, capable of more than that in discussion, are we not?"

I dunn-know, once you've fucked up people's mind with politics, and the lying spins it takes to get that train a'movin', God only knows what kind of logic is left!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:16 PM

So, John. I point a gun at you. I tell you to get out of the way within five seconds or I shoot. You refuse, so I shoot you dead. I tell the police that you committed suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:33 PM

"So, John. I point a gun at you. I tell you to get out of the way within five seconds or I shoot. You refuse, so I shoot you dead. I tell the police that you committed suicide."

Your premise has no relation to reality. A more realistic reading is that Hamas forces residents to be shields, in essence kidnapping them. That makes Hamas guilty of their deaths.

Also, Steve,I said, below, that I googled 'hamas kills palestineans' and found citations that Hamas actually kills Gazans. Can I be any clearer than that?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:41 PM

I tell you to get out of the way within five seconds or I shoot. You refuse, so I shoot you dead. I tell the police that you committed suicide.

Hey, it worked a treat for George Zimmerman - Netanyahu is just applying "stand your ground" principles........

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:54 PM

"But the tango don't go too well if one participant is ten foot three and the other is four foot nine.""

Well, there is always the option to just say no tango, dhango.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 07:58 PM

Your premise has no relation to reality. A more realistic reading is that Hamas forces residents to be shields, in essence kidnapping them. That makes Hamas guilty of their deaths.

It wasn't a premise.

If you have evidence that Hamas uses force in order to make Gazans into human shields, or "kidnaps" them, well let's be having it. Otherwise, you appear to be guilty of being a Hamas-demonising Israel apologist. Prove me wrong. But prove means prove, John.

Also, Steve,I said, below, that I googled 'hamas kills palestineans' and found citations that Hamas actually kills Gazans. Can I be any clearer than that?

Yes, you couldn't be clearer. You googled something. That's clear. Nine times out of ten, when I google something, I get rubbish. It can sometimes be hard to distinguish, of course, as we all know. Let's have details of your alleged "citations". It's piss or get off the pot time, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:14 PM

"Yes, you couldn't be clearer. You googled something."

I told you exactly what terms I used to google. You can use the same terms and find the same sites. Go and Learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 08:26 PM

I could suggest that you learn to discriminate. It might help if you clear your head of your prejudices first. I asked you for your references. I note your reluctance so to do. If you make assertions based on your googling, you should be able to support them with references. You do not get to give me that homework.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Jul 14 - 09:27 PM

Steve Shaw, you are a piece of work! You provide little to no support for your assertions. Did I find any attribution when you from you when you baldly averred that Hamas does not kill its governed. I did not, because there was none. Did I challenge you to prove it? I did not. I knew your statement to be wrong, and found sources to support that knowledge, including The Guardian (as I understand its politics, a center-left paper). I gave you a lot more than you've given us, here.

Do you want to be an obstructionist, or do you want to learn?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:42 AM

Steve Pshaw: "If you have evidence that Hamas uses force in order to make Gazans into human shields, or "kidnaps" them, well let's be having it. Otherwise, you appear to be guilty of being a Hamas-demonising Israel apologist. Prove me wrong. But prove means prove, John."

If you say they are volunteers, then, as I pointed out earlier, they a combatants...sorta like suicide bombers, or Kamikaze pilots....and if that is their tactic, then that is their tactic. If they think that standing under Israeli missiles are going to take them to Allah quicker, for being a martyr, shit, don't deny them the honor....jeez, you want to be a 'bigot' and deny them their freedom to express or practice their religion!!..Matter of fact, with that logic, they should be thanking the Israelis for giving them a fast track to 'Utopia'...
....sure beats the slow painful road at the hands of 'so-called liberals'...you know, like you!

Makes simple and plain sense, using your logic!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:15 AM

Hey Goofus! You would have liked those children playing on the beach yesterday then. Couldn't wait to meet Allah eh? Being children, do you think they were playing martyrs and asking each other what a fucking virgin is?

They were doing alright till the Israeli bombs joined in.

Sad sick bastard.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 03:32 AM

"OK, Jim, I got that...but where did YOU get that from?"
Where did I get what GFI?
Israel has been identifying as deliberately using human shields - making children walk into 'at risk' area in front of the soldiers, sitting them on the bonnets of their vehicles, setting up missile launching units in schoolyard, stationing observation units in occupied homes..... many of these incidents come with photographs and the matter has been raised in by U,N. war crimes groups.
Are you suggesting that these are all Antisemitic fakes?
The act of adopting as policy of "if you fire rockets at us we will kill and destroy anybody who happens to be in the way of our bombing and shelling, combatants and non combatants notwithstanding, is one of making everybody 'human shields'.
Israel is now in the process of threatening the lives and homes of 100,000 'human shields' in northern Gaza.
What was your question again?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:25 AM

Steve, Channel 4 News last night.
The reporter in Gaza said Israel had warned residents in an area to leave because attacks were imminent, but Hamas came on the radio and told them to stay put because it was just "propaganda."

Any country subject to bombardment from outside is quite legally entitled to strike back.
It is illegal for either side to fight from civilian occupied areas.

Hamas commits a war crime by launching missiles at civilian targets.
It commits another by failing to evacuate civilians from its weapons sites.

It is not illegal to strike at targets protected by living sandbags, provided warnings are given and efforts are made to minimise civilian casualties.
Hamas chooses not to move its people to safety as it is legally required to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 04:55 AM

I would say nice to see you back Keith, but you must have sat thinking a long time before wondering how appalling you could make your first contribution.

It isn't the fault of paedophiles, it's the children dressing as if they are gagging for it eh?

That is about the best defence Netanyahu will have as a comparison when reason and decency gets him in The Hague.

I suppose sandbag and beach are a clever use of words if you get pleasure out of supporting terrorists.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:15 AM

The claim of 'Human shields' is a cynical misinterpretation of international laws which cover deliberately placing non-combatants in the line of fire - it is being used by Israel as an excuse to indiscriminately bomb and mortar civilian ares.
Jim Carroll

Israeli-Palestinian conflict[edit]
Palestinians[edit]
Palestinian rioters who hurl stones against Israelis using an ambulance as a cover. (video)
During the Second Intifada (2000–2005) Palestinian gunmen used civilians and children as human shield, by surrounding themselves with children while shooting on IDF forces.[14]
In November 2006, Palestinian women volunteered as human shields to allow the escape of Hamas gunmen from Israeli forces in Beit Hanoun in the Gaza Strip. The armed Palestinians had barricaded themselves in a mosque, which was surrounded by Israeli troops and tanks. According to a Hamas spokesman, a crowd of women gathered outside the mosque in response to an appeal on the local radio station for women to protect the Hamas fighters. The Palestinian gunmen escaped by dressing in women's clothes and hiding in the large group.[15]
Also in the same month, the Israeli Air Force warned Mohammed Weil Baroud, a Palestinian leader said to be responsible for firing Qassam rockets at Israel, to evacuate his home in Beit Lahia in the Gaza Strip in advance of an airstrike. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition."[16] The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs says Hamas now regularly uses human shields to protect the homes of Hamas officials.[17]
The human rights group Rabbis for Human Rights agreed to act as human shields during the annual olive harvest to protect Palestinian villages from settlers.[18]
On October 29, 2007, in response to criticism of Israel's bombing of a Beit Hanoun Elementary School for boys run by UNRWA, the Israel Defense Forces released drone footage of mortars shot from a street adjacent to the school. Israel warned Ban Ki Moon about the danger and requested an investigation.[19] A Hamas spokesman stated that no attacks were launched from the school though two people stating to be locals and refusing to state their names phoned AP reporters to claim that attacks had come from nearby the school.[20] 43 Palestinians were reported killed when a street outside the school was hit by return fire.[21] Israel accused Hamas of "cynically" using civilians as human shields. A report from the IDF brigade responsible for the attack stated that militants had launched a rocket into Israel from a yard adjacent to the UN building and the paratroop brigade had fired three rounds of mortars at the position. A GPS error led to one of the mortars hitting the building.[22]
The Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center accused Hamas and other armed groups of making extensive use of human shields as integral part of their war doctrine, in order to prevent the IDF to target them, during the Gaza War (2008-2009). According to the ITIC, tactics used by Hamas that qualify as using human shields include hiding military infrastructure in civilian buildings - including "mosques, hospitals and educational institutions", firing rockets and mortar shells from civilian population centers, "summoning civilians to come to operatives' houses to serve as human shields for terrorist operatives in danger of being attacked by the IDF" and using children as human shield by "surrounding operatives with children to facilitate their escape from combat zones".[23][24] The IDF released a video accusing an alleged Hamas member of using civilians as human shield for allegedly walking away with children after an attack during the Gaza War (2008-2009). [25] The IDF also released a video taken from an UAV drone documenting Hamas militant launching a rocket from a roof of a civilian house and then using children to escort him out to avoid being targeted by IDF forces.[26]

Israel[edit]
The IDF admitted it had used Palestinians as 'human shields', in limited capacities, a practice subsequently banned by Israel's High Court of Justice.[27] The Israeli Defense Ministry appealed this decision.[28] Specifically, while acknowledging and defending the "use of Palestinians to deliver warnings to wanted men about impending arrest operations", the IDF denied reports of "using Palestinians as human shields against attacks on IDF forces", claiming it had already forbidden this practice[29].
Amnesty International[30] and Human Rights Watch[31] said the Israel Defense Forces used Palestinian civilians as human shields during the 2002 Battle of Jenin. The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem said that "for a long period of time following the outbreak of the second intifada, particularly during Operation Defensive Shield, in April 2002, the IDF systematically used Palestinian civilians as human shields, forcing them to carry out military actions which threatened their lives".[32][33] Al Mezan reported the systematic use of "human shields" during the invasion of Beit Hanoun in 2004.[34]
The practice was outlawed by the Supreme Court of Israel in 2005 but human rights groups say the IDF continues to use it, although they say the number of instances has dropped sharply.[32][35] In 2006, the IDF again used civilians as human shields in Beit Hanun.[36] In February 2007, Associated Press Television News released footage of an incident involving Sameh Amira, a 24-year-old Palestinian. The video appears to show the West Bank resident serving as a human shield for a group of Israeli soldiers.[35][37] The Israeli Army launched a criminal investigation into the incident.[35] In April 2007, the Israeli army suspended a commander after the unit he was leading was accused of using Palestinians as human shields in a West Bank raid.[38]
During the 2008-2009 Gaza War known as Operation Cast Lead, Israeli military forces were accused of continuing to use civilians as human shields by Amnesty International and former Israeli soldiers (see Breaking the Silence). According to testimonies, Israeli forces used unarmed Palestinians including children to protect military positions, walk in front of armed soldiers; go into buildings to check for booby traps or gunmen; and inspect suspicious objects for explosives.[39][40]
The UN Human Rights Council also accused Israel of using human shields during 2008-2009 Gaza Conflict[41][42]
The Guardian has compiled three videos[43] and testimony from civilians of alleged war crimes committed by Israeli soldiers during the Gaza war, including the use of Palestinian children as human shields, the targeting of medics and hospitals, and drone aircraft firing on civilians deliberately.[44] Three teenage brothers from the al-Attar family have claimed that "they were taken from their home at gunpoint, made to kneel in front of tanks to deter Hamas fighters from firing at them and sent by Israeli soldiers into Palestinian houses to clear them".[44]
An Israeli military official responded to these allegations: "The IDF operated in accordance with the rules of war and did the utmost to minimise harm to civilians uninvolved in combat. The IDF's use of weapons conforms to international law." An Israeli embassy spokesperson considers these allegations suspect because of Hamas pressure, adding: "Anyone who understands the realities of Gaza will know that these people are not free to speak the truth. Those that wish to speak out cannot for fear of beatings, torture or execution at the hands of Hamas."[44]
However, in a report on the Gaza conflict,[45] released July 2, 2009, Amnesty International wrote that Israel did use human shields in Gaza. Amnesty claimed to have found cases in which "Israeli troops forced Palestinians to stay in one room of their home while turning the rest of the house into a base and sniper position, effectively using the families, both adults and children, as human shields and putting them at risk. The report also criticized Hamas for human rights violations, but "found no evidence Palestinian fighters directed civilians to shield military objectives from attacks, forced them to stay in buildings used by militants, or prevented them from leaving commandeered buildings".[46] The Israeli military responded only by calling the report "unbalanced" and saying that it ignored "blatant violations of international law perpetrated by Hamas".
On March 12, 2010, the Israel Defense Forces prosecution filed indictments against two staff sergeants of the Givati Brigade for allegedly forcing a 9-year-old Palestinian boy to open a number of bags they thought might contain explosives in January 2009. The IDF said it opened the investigation after the incident was brought to its attention by the United Nations.[47] On October 3, 2010, a conviction in this matter was handed down by the military court against both defendants, though neither soldier was jailed.[48][49][50]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 05:56 AM

Colonel Richard Kemp, former Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan, spoke in 2011 about Israeli operations in the Gaza War. He said that a study published by the United Nations showed "that the ratio of civilian to combatant deaths in Gaza was by far the lowest in any asymmetric conflict in the history of warfare." He stated that this ratio was less than 1:1, and compared it favorably to the estimated ratios in NATO operations in Afghanistan (3:1), western campaigns in Iraq and Kosovo (believed to be 4:1), and the conflicts in Chechnya and Serbia (much higher than 4:1, according to anecdotal evidence). Kemp argued that the low ratio was achieved through unprecedented measures by the IDF to minimize civilian casualties, which included providing warnings to the population via telephone calls, radio broadcasts and leaflets, as well as granting pilots the discretion to abort a strike if they perceived too great a risk of civilian casualties. He also stated that the civilian casualties that did occur could be seen in light of Hamas' tactical use of Gazan civilians "as human shields, to hide behind, to stand between Israeli forces and their own fighters" and strategic use of them for exploitation of their deaths in the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:14 AM

The Hamas death industry

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:44 AM

Here is the widely believed fallacy: the Israeli blockade of Gaza led to the firing of Hamas rockets from Gaza.

And here is the little known truth: it was the firing of Hamas rockets from Gaza that led to the Israeli blockade of Gaza.

The fallacy distorts our understanding of why these escalations keep happening and what will make a durable peace possible. The fallacy frames the Israeli blockade of Gaza as motiveless and cruel at best, demonic at worst, while it presents the firing of Hamas rockets on Israeli civilians as acts of resistance. The fallacy makes us think that if only Israel "lifted the blockade" then peace would break out.

The fallacy spreads because of ignorance.

***************************************************************************************************************

David Horovitz, the British-born editor of the Times of Israel, expresses the exasperation of many Israelis about all this. He pleads for "opinion-shapers overseas to… exercise just a smidgen of intellectual honesty", and stop contriving not to see that "If there was no rocket fire from this non-disputed enclave, there would be no Israeli response, and nobody would be dying."


Alan Johnson: The Telegraph

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 06:50 AM

Historically anti-Israel BBC is finally telling the truth about Gaza, and Muslims are outraged

Angry mob of Muslims and left wing dhimmi sympathizers take to the streets to protest the BBC's truthful reporting showing the Palestinians for lying propagandists they really are.

RAW: Anger & unrest at London protest over 'BBC bias' on Gaza

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:10 AM

Historically anti Israel BBC???? Is that all Palestinians that are lying propagandists?

If objective coverage makes something look in a bad light, it's possibly because they..

Oh, forget it. You can't educate pork, kosher or Halal.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:31 AM

" each and every death in Gaza has been caused by an Israeli gun or an Israeli bomb, set off in every single case by an Israeli. "


UNTRUE.

The VERY first child killed in this recent rocket barrage was a 4 or 5 year old PALESTINIAN in Gaza killed by a HAMAS rocket that misfired.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Ed T
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:42 AM

""Just 'cause youz wear a wig, doesn't mean you're a gurl.""

Quote: Gustav "Gouda" Nyenyenyenyenyeneghh

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:43 AM

First Publish: 6/24/2014, 10:05 PM

"A Palestinian Arab girl was killed and three others wounded in Gaza after a rocket fired at Israel by terrorists in the Hamas-enclave fell short, landing in Gaza itself.

The rocket was the third of four fired within an hour from Gaza. The Iron Dome anti-missile defense system shot down the first two, which were launched within minutes of each other, and the fourth hit a town in the Sedot Negev Regional Council, causing no damage.

Hamas medical sources say the fatality is a three-year-old girl.

Over 20 rockets have been fired at Israel since Operation Brother's Keeper began two weeks ago to rescue the three Israeli teens kidnapped by Hamas terrorists, with the IDF noting that over 200 rockets have been fired from Gaza since the start of the year.

Another failed missile was recorded last Friday. After Iron Dome shot down a rocket earlier in the day, another terrorist rocket was fired but fell short of its mark, landing in Gaza. No damage was reported in the incident."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:45 AM

Sorry, I was wrong about the age.

So it is OK for HAMAS to kill 3 year old girls, as long as Steve is ignorant of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:51 AM

Nothing new about this, either-

It seems that Hamas rockets are even better at killing Palestinians than they are at killing Israelis.



" Updated December 27, 2008 - 3:09am

GAZA CITY (AP) – A crude rocket fired by Palestinian militants fell short of its target in Israel yesterday, striking a house in the northern Gaza Strip and killing two schoolgirls.

The attack came as Israel sent mixed signals over its plans to respond to continuing Palestinian rocket fire. Israeli defense officials say politicians have approved a large-scale incursion into the territory once rainy conditions clear. But at the same time, Israel appeared receptive to international pressure against an invasion, opening the Gaza border yesterday to allow in deliveries of humanitarian aid.

None of Gaza's militant factions claimed responsibility for the deadly attack on the house in Beit Lahiya. Gaza Health Ministry official Dr. Moiaya Hassanain said the two victims, ages 5 and 12, were cousins. Three other children were wounded, he said.

The girls were the first Palestinian civilians inadvertently killed by militants since their truce with Israel began collapsing six weeks ago. Family members and medics said they were killed by rocket fire."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 07:56 AM

November 18, 2012

"But there were signs on Saturday that not all the Palestinian casualties have been the result of Israeli air strikes. The highly publicised death of four-year-old Mohammed Sadallah appeared to have been the result of a misfiring home-made rocket, not a bomb dropped by Israel.

The child's death on Friday figured prominently in media coverage after Hisham Kandil, the Egyptian prime minister, was filmed lifting his dead body out of an ambulance. "The boy, the martyr, whose blood is still on my hands and clothes, is something that we cannot keep silent about," he said, before promising to defend the Palestinian people.

But experts from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights who visited the site on Saturday said they believed that the explosion was caused by a Palestinian rocket."

There is only one party that not only deliberately targets innocent Israeli children but also has no qualms about putting the lives of Palestinian children at risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:03 AM

Hear, hear!

Rob Morris: Dear World,

It appears that you are hard to please. I understand that you are upset over us, here in Israel. Indeed, it appears that you are quite upset, even angry and outraged! Indeed, every few years you seem to become upset over us. Today, it is the brutal repression of the Palestinians; yesterday, it was Lebanon; before that it was the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Baghdad and the Yom Kippur War campaign. It appears that Jews who triumph and who, therefore, live, upset you most extraordinarily. Of course, dear world, long before there was an Israel, we, the Jewish people – upset you. We upset a German people who elected a Hitler and we upset an Austrian people who cheered his entry into Vienna and we upset a whole slew of Slavic nations – Poles, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Ukrainians, Russians, Hungarians, Romanians. And we go back a long, long way in the history of world upset. We upset the Cossacks of Chmielnicki who massacred tens of thousands of us in 1648-49; we upset the Crusaders who, on their way to liberate the Holy Land, were so upset at Jews that they slaughtered untold numbers of us. We upset, for centuries, a Roman Catholic Church that did its best to define our relationship through Inquisitions. And we upset the arch-enemy of the Church, Martin Luther, who, in his call to burn the synagogues and the Jews within them, showed an admirable Christian ecumenical spirit. It is because we became so upset over upsetting you, dear world, that we decided to leave you – in a manner of speaking – and establish a Jewish State. The reasoning was that living in close contact with you, as resident-strangers in the various countries that comprise you, we upset you, irritate you, disturb you. What better notion, then, than to leave you and thus love you – and have you love us? And so we decided to come home – to the same homeland from which we were driven out 1,900 years earlier by a Roman world that, apparently, we also upset. Alas, dear world, it appears that you are hard to please. Having left you and your Pogroms and Inquisitions and Crusades and Holocausts, having taken our leave of the general world to live alone in our own little state – we continue to upset you. You are upset that we repress the poor Palestinians. You are deeply angered over the fact that we do not give up the lands of 1967, which are clearly the obstacle to peace in the Middle East. Moscow is upset and Washington is upset. The Arabs are upset and the gentle Egyptian moderates are upset. Well, dear world, consider the reaction of a normal Jew from Israel. In 1920, 1921 and 1929, there were no territories of 1967 to impede peace between Jews and Arabs. Indeed, there was no Jewish State to upset anybody. Nevertheless, the same oppressed and repressed Palestinians slaughtered hundreds of Jews in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Safed and Hebron. Indeed, 67 Jews were slaughtered one day in Hebron – in 1929. Dear World, why did the Arabs – the Palestinians – massacre 67 Jews in one day in 1929? Could it have been their anger over Israeli aggression in 1967? And why were 510 Jewish men, women and children slaughtered in Arab riots in 1936-39? Was it because of Arab upset over 1967? And when you, World, proposed a U.N. Partition Plan in 1947 that would have created a Palestinian State alongside a tiny Israel and the Arabs cried and went to war and killed 6,000 Jews – was that upset stomach caused by the aggression of 1967? And, by the way, dear world, why did we not hear your cry of upset then? The poor Palestinians who today kill Jews with explosives and firebombs and stones are part of the same people who – when they had all the territories they now demand be given them for their state – attempted to drive the Jewish State into the sea. The same twisted faces, the same hate, the same cry of "idbah-al-yahud" – "Slaughter the Jews!" that we hear and see today, were seen and heard then. The same people, the same dream – destroy Israel. What they failed to do yesterday, they dream of today – but we should not "repress" them. Dear World, you stood by the Holocaust and you stood by in 1948 as seven states launched a war that the Arab League proudly compared to the Mongol massacres. You stood by in 1967 as Nasser, wildly cheered by wild mobs in every Arab capital in the world, vowed to drive the Jews into the sea. And you would stand by tomorrow if Israel were facing extinction. And since we know that the Arabs-Palestinians daily dream of that extinction, we will do everything possible to remain alive in our own land. If that bothers you, dear world, well – think of how many times in the past you bothered us. In any event, dear world, if you are bothered by us, here is one Jew in Israel who could not care less.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:13 AM

If in the past year you didn't CRY OUT when thousands of protesters were killed and injured by Turkey, Egypt and Libya, when more victims than ever were hanged by Iran, women and children in Afghanistan were bombed, whole communities were massacred in South Sudan, 1800 Palestinians were starved and murdered by Assad in Syria, hundreds in Pakistan were killed by jihadist terror attacks, 10,000 Iraqis were killed by terrorists, villagers were slaughtered in Nigeria, but you ONLY cry out for GAZA, then you are not pro HUMAN RIGHTS, you are only ANTI-ISRAEL."


— Hillel Neuer

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:16 AM

A shaky truce appears to be mostly holding in Gaza, despite some continued incidents of violence Hamas and Israeli forces. A five-hour "humanitarian window" went into effect early on Friday, a ceasefire that was almost immediately broken when three mortars were fired into Israel just two hours in the break. Hamas did not claim responsibility and Israel did not immediately retaliate, so the truce has continued as planned, with Gazans taking the opportunity to gather supplies and repair damage.

Related Stories

Gaza humanitarian truce goes into force, hours after tunnel clash Reuters
Israeli troops kill four gunmen who slip in from Gaza by sea Reuters
Fragile humanitarian truce under way in Gaza AFP
Children killed on beach as Israel resumes Gaza bombardment AFP
Israel says it shot down Gaza drone as calls for truce mount Reuters
Israeli officials also told AFP that another ceasefire has been agreed to for Friday morning, but there has been no confirmation of an agreement from the Hamas side.

Despite the temporary lull in the shooting, the conflict shows every sign of continuing. Just hours before the UN-brokered temporary truce was set to begin, Israeli troops reportedly thwarted an operation by 13 armed Hamas infiltrators, who were said to have tunneled into Israel from Gaza. They were stopped just a mile short of a kibbutz in southern Israel where 45 families live.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:18 AM

It is NOT dead Muslims that bother some here, but live Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:21 AM

"The Israeli warnings appeared to have had no immediate effect, with only limited numbers seen leaving. Children picked up many of the flyers and played with them, an AFP correspondent said.

"Where should we go?" asked Faisal Hassan, a father of five who lives in Zeitun.

Hamas dismissed the warning as a scare tactic, telling residents there was "no need to worry".
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 08:35 AM

The current phase of this conflict has been underway for around two weeks or less. Every Palestinian killed in that time has been killed by a bomb, bullet or other missile fired by an Israeli. It was this phase of the conflict that prompted me to chime in here and that, clearly, is what I'm referring to. We could go back as far and David and Goliath if you like.

Your comment about live Jews is a disgrace. You are implying that people who disagree with you are antisemitic. You are scum.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:06 AM

Steve,

6/24/2014, 10:05 PM is AFTER the start of the current rocket attacks.

YOUR atetsment is a LIE- Non factual repeated after being informed as to it's falsehood

If YOU are less concerned about dead Muslims than about being able to blame them on Israel, YOU are the scum.


If the shoe fits...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:22 AM

You are implying that people who disagree with you are antisemitic.

Not implying, stating it overtly. Next he'll be calling you a Nazi, with BooBad cheering him on.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:47 AM

No, GregF is our resident Nazi.

Look at his stated opinion of people who are "Black, and a Democrat"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 09:56 AM

It is NOT dead Muslims that bother some here, but live Jews.


PLEASE READ WHAT I WROTE.

SOME here have expressed that they have a problem with the FACT that not as many Jews are being killed as Muslims. That bothers them

Many here that have commented on Israeli "killings" of Palestinians had no problem when it was other Muslims killing far more Muslim civilians. It is ONLY when Israel is involved that they seem to care about Muslims. THEN they cry their "tears' and bemoan the loss of even a single life ( except when it is Jewish).




"I should like to suggest that you confine your "opinion" to what is being said and is not, instead, directed at the person"

Ye, I DO have an opinion about those here WHO HAVE EXPRESSED views I think indicate bigotry or inhumanity, and who shown support for the war crimes of Hamas.

WHAT THEY SAY indicates the point that they ARE ANTI-SEMITIC according to the EU definition.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:29 AM

A recent, credible poll shows that most Gazans oppose Hamas policies and leaders alike, and favor a ceasefire with Israel.
Yesterday's headlines are that Hamas has just rejected Egypt's offer of a ceasefire with Israel and instead continues to fire rockets indiscriminately at Israeli towns and cities.

Less known is a crucial fact: the people of Gaza are solidly against these Hamas policies. Indeed, by a very large majority, they oppose Hamas rule altogether.

These findings are based on a June 15-17 survey by a highly respected Palestinian pollster, who conducted face-to-face interviews throughout Gaza using standard random geographical probability sampling. The poll included 450 Gazans, yielding a margin of error of approximately 4 percent.

This is the only credible Palestinian poll taken since the mid-June West Bank kidnapping incident, Israel's subsequent searches and arrests, and the start of the current crisis (for more on the survey, see PolicyWatch 2276, "New Palestinian Poll Shows Hardline Views, But Some Pragmatism Too").

GAZANS WANTED A CEASEFIRE EVEN AS HAMAS STARTED FIRING ROCKETS
As tensions mounted and Hamas and other Gazan factions began to step up rocket fire last month, the people of that territory were heavily in favor of a ceasefire -- 70 percent of the poll respondents agreed or strongly agreed with the statement "Hamas should maintain a ceasefire with Israel in both Gaza and the West Bank." This attitude is corroborated by the 73 percent of Gazans who said Palestinians should adopt "proposals for (nonviolent) popular resistance against the occupation."

Similarly, when asked if Hamas should accept Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas's position that the new unity government renounce violence against Israel, a clear majority (57 percent) answered in the affirmative. The responses to all three questions clearly indicate that most Gazans reject military escalation. Attitudes may have shifted since the poll due to anger at Israeli airstrikes, but anecdotal evidence suggests that the Gazan public still supports a ceasefire.

HAMAS FAILING TO DELIVER
The poll also demonstrates that Gazans are unhappy with Hamas governance -- on multiple levels. A large majority (71 percent) considered crime to be a "significant" problem. Two-thirds said that another significant problem was official corruption. Moreover, a large majority (78 percent) found the "presence of Palestinian militias that are not organized under the formal security structure" to be at least a "moderate" problem.

In light of this dissatisfaction with Hamas security forces and administration, most respondents favored the prospect of the PA taking over Gaza. A remarkable 88 percent agreed with the statement "The PA should send officials and security officers to Gaza to take over administration there" -- including two-thirds who "strongly" agreed.

HAMAS LEADERS HAVE MEAGER POLITICAL SUPPORT
Also very striking, and contrary to common misperception, is the fact that Hamas did not gain politically from the kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers that sparked the current crisis last month. Asked who should be the president of Palestine in the next two years, a solid majority in Gaza named either Abbas or other leaders affiliated with the Fatah Party. In stark contrast, Hamas leaders Ismail Haniyeh and Khaled Mashal rated a combined total of just 15 percent support.

MAJORITY OF GAZANS WANT ISRAELI JOBS
The Gazan economy has receded over the past year as unemployment climbed to around 40 percent. Egypt's closure of multiple smuggling tunnels and the Fatah-Hamas dispute over post-reconciliation salaries have only exacerbated this dire economic situation.

The results of the June poll go even further than these indicators, showing that Gazans would be willing to look to Israel for their livelihood. Respondents overwhelmingly (82 percent) said they "would like to see Israel allow more Palestinians to work in Israel." Still more poignantly, a majority (56 percent) said they "would be personally willing to work in Israel if there was a good, high-paying job." Thus, Gazans actually favored some form of normalization with Israel in order to find work.

POLICY IMPLICATIONS
The June survey demonstrates the sharp contrast between what most Gazans want and what their Hamas government continually does. The group's popularity was at a low point as the current crisis began, and there is no evidence that it has rebounded.

The poll results show that the people of that hard-pressed territory want a ceasefire and even economic opportunity in Israel -- and that they overwhelmingly reject Hamas policies and leaders alike. These fundamental facts should help guide the U.S. government and its regional allies as they search not just for a ceasefire, but also for longer-term economic and political prescriptions for Gaza's fate.



Read more: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/gaza-public-rejects-hamas-wants-ceasefire#When:15:54:31Z#ixzz37jwaY6RP

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:40 AM

"EU definition."
Had the U.N. or the European Union mattered one damn to the Israelis they wouldn't have sabotaged the peace talks that they have, or blockading Gaza, or bombarding civilians......
They would certainly not be threatening the lives and homes of 100,000 non combatants, as they are doing at the present time.
Is to criticise Israel is Antisemitic, a large slice of the world, including a large and growing number of Jews are Antisemites.
Crouching behind the dead to defend atrocities gets more and more disgusting, the longer you do it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:49 AM

"Crouching behind the dead to defend atrocities gets more and more disgusting, the longer you do it."

YET YOU still do so- bringing up Palestinians killed because of the illegal rocket attacks by Hamas upon Israeli civilians.


You and the Hamas leaders will not be happy until there are enough dead Palestinian children to bury Israel under.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 11:54 AM

Abbas and other Arab leaders demand that Israel stop striking Gaza, but not that Hamas stop shooting rockets at Israel. So the United States should demand they correct that imbalance.

The most striking aspect of ongoing Arab reactions to the latest Hamas-Israeli clashes is an act of omission: the Palestinian Authority (PA) and President Mahmoud Abbas are not calling for Hamas to stop firing rockets into Israeli cities. This contradicts Abbas's recent declarations that the new PA government and its Hamas backers would honor past PA commitments regarding nonviolence against Israel. A new statement from Abbas's office claims that "the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves by all legitimate means" against "Israeli escalation."

In today's latest twist, Abbas and the PA are not just calling for Israel to stop its airstrikes against Hamas targets inside Gaza. According to several plausible press reports, they are also threatening to haul Israel before the International Criminal Court for the "war crime" or "genocide" of responding to Hamas rocket attacks. PA messaging, moreover, makes no effort to distinguish between the Hamas "political leadership" -- which signed the reconciliation agreement with the PA's ruling Fatah Party and may have attempted to restrain the initial rocket salvos -- and the Hamas "military wing," which some PA officials privately blame for trying to torpedo reconciliation by firing indiscriminately at Israel.

The official messages from Fatah, of which Abbas is also the chairman, are even more inflammatory, explicitly praising the rocket fire and threatening all Israelis with death and destruction. Ironically, pro-Hamas Palestinian media are taking the PA to task for offering mere verbal support, even as it largely strives to maintain calm and coordination with Israel in the West Bank territory it controls.

The Arab League and the governments of Qatar and Syria have issued similarly one-sided statements, demanding that Israel stop its "aggression "or "escalation" while failing to acknowledge that Hamas rocket fire provoked the latest conflict, or even to urge Hamas to desist. But none of this rhetoric has been matched with threats of direct action, and some of the pronouncements seem to shift the onus of taking action to others. For example, Arab League secretary-general Nabil al-Araby called for a UN Security Council emergency session to "stop Israel's aggressions," with no mention of Hamas responsibility.

Overall, Arab official and media commentary has been relatively sparse, likely due at least in part to the worse bloodshed besetting other countries in the region. But coverage of Gaza may well increase over time, as it has in past episodes.

Official statements from Egypt and Jordan have been somewhat more balanced. Jordan's foreign minister Nasser Judeh urged Israel to "stop its escalation immediately," but also called for "the restoration of complete calm and avoidance of targeting civilians" and even for "the return to direct negotiations." The office of Egyptian president Abdul Fattah al-Sisi called for "an immediate ceasefire" out of concern for "the safety of the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip."

Since Sisi took over, however, Cairo has downgraded its contacts with Hamas; and that decision, while constructive overall, would likely have the unintended consequence of making any Egyptian effort to broker a ceasefire less effective than in the past. And there is no sign this time that Egypt is actively pursuing a deal on reopening its Rafah crossing into Gaza, except for emergency medical and other small-scale humanitarian purposes. A more expansive approach to reopening Rafah might make a ceasefire more acceptable to both Hamas and Israel, as on some previous occasions.

Finally, high-level U.S. statements, from President Obama on down, have so far not asked Abbas to account for the PA's failure to oppose the Hamas rocket fire. Rather, these statements appear well behind the curve, focusing on past peace talks or the recent kidnapping episodes instead of dealing with the immediate military crisis. On Tuesday, the State Department spokesperson "strongly" condemned "the deliberate targeting of civilians by terrorist organizations in Gaza," adding that the United States "certainly supports Israel's right to defend itself against these attacks." Yet she added that "both sides" should "de-escalate tensions on the ground," and that Abbas faces "limitations" on his influence in Gaza. In this urgent new situation, Washington should unconditionally demand that Hamas stop shooting rockets into Israel -- and that the PA fulfill its longstanding commitment to precisely that position.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:04 PM

Jerusalem (AFP) - The UN agency for Palestinian refugees UNRWA said Thursday it was investigating after finding 20 rockets hidden in one of its vacant schools in the Gaza Strip.

It condemned the incident as a "flagrant violation" of international law and said the rockets had been removed and the "relative parties" informed.

"Yesterday, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered approximately 20 rockets hidden in a vacant school in the Gaza Strip," the agency said in a statement.

"UNRWA strongly condemns the group or groups responsible for placing the weapons in one of its installations," it continued.

"This is a flagrant violation of the inviolability of its premises under international law."

It said the incident was the first of its kind, warning that it "endangered civilians including staff and put at risk UNRWA's vital mission."

The statement said UNRWA "informed the relevant parties and successfully took all necessary measures for the removal of the objects."

"UNRWA has launched a comprehensive investigation."

Israel regularly accuses Hamas and other Gaza militants of using civilian installations to store and launch rockets, including during the current conflict that began on July 8.

Gaza militants have fired hundreds of rockets since the latest violence began, with Israel launching punishing air strikes that have killed 221 people and forced thousands to flee.

Around 22,000 people who have fled their homes have taken refuge in UNRWA schools, but the one where the rockets were found was not being used.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:26 PM

The only bit that makes sense in this thread lately is where Steve calls beardedbruce scum.

If beardedbruce can show where anyone here said anything remotely like not wishing to see live Jews, I would be grateful.

When you haven't got an argument or are secretly ashamed of your partisan stance, you put words into the mouths of others and cut and paste subjective diatribe that no fucker bothers reading.

Most people are capable of reading or hearing news and articles and coming to their own conclusions. I notice the less savoury characters on Mudcat seem to borrow their opinions and then berate those intelligent enough to come to their own view and articulate it.

The only people mentioning Jews are you racist twats. You love to interchange Hamas, Muslim and Palestinian. Then assume others do similar.

Pathetic

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:33 PM

You and the Hamas leaders will not be happy until there are enough dead Palestinian children to bury Israel under.

Of all the disgraceful posts ever made on this forum, this one truly takes the biscuit. I trust the moderators are fighting this bloke tooth and nail behind the scenes. Talk about bringing a forum into total disrepute.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:34 PM

JERUSALEM — More than 40 rockets from the Gaza Strip whizzed into Israel starting at 3 p.m. Thursday, precisely marking the designated end of the five-hour halt to hostilities both sides had agreed upon to provide a "humanitarian window" to residents after nine days of fighting.

The Israeli military said one rocket hit the southern city of Ashkelon and another fell short and landed inside Gaza, as sirens again sounded repeatedly across southern Israel. A military spokesman said Israel had not immediately resumed strikes on Gaza.

Continue reading the main story
RELATED COVERAGE

Palestinians on Wednesday sat near the house of Mahmoud al-Zahar, a senior Hamas leader, after it was destroyed by an Israeli airstrike.Military Official Says Israel Invasion of Gaza Is LikelyJULY 16, 2014
Family members of the four boys were distraught on Wednesday after identifying their bodies at the hospital in Gaza City.Boys Drawn to Gaza Beach, and Into Center of Mideast StrifeJULY 16, 2014
The aftermath of an airstrike on a beach in Gaza City on Wednesday. Four young Palestinian boys, all cousins, were killed.Through Lens, 4 Boys Dead by Gaza ShoreJULY 16, 2014
The pause, requested by the United Nations, came after Israel foiled a predawn attack in which about 13 Palestinian militants emerged from a tunnel near a kibbutz, and as negotiations toward a Cairo-brokered cease-fire deal continued. It was interrupted by a brief flurry of mortar fire that fell in open ground near the Gaza border, but otherwise the quiet held from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m., allowing Gaza residents to safely come out of their homes to shop and survey the damage the battle had wrought.

Palestinian, Egyptian, Israeli and American officials said intense discussions were underway on terms for a cease-fire that could take effect as soon as 6 a.m. Friday, but none was willing to be quoted by name. A high-level Israeli delegation returned from Cairo, where President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority and Tony Blair, the envoy of the so-called Quartet of Middle East peacemakers, met Wednesday with President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi of Egypt.

"The effort to achieve an end of the violence is ongoing," said one senior Israeli official. "We're not there yet."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:43 PM

IF Jim can make the statements that he has for the last several years, and not be criticized, then MY statements stand as stated- If you don't like them, SHOW ME YOU ARE NOT DOING AS I STATE.

As far as I can tell FROM YOUR POSTS, my statements are accurate.

If they are too much for you to read, TRY TO APPLY THAT STANDARD TO WHAT YOU ARE POSTING FIRST.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:46 PM

"Talk about bringing a forum into total disrepute."


No, GregF and Jim have already done that.

You seem to be trying to join them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 12:58 PM

So, Steve, have you heard ANY reports from Gaza about those killed BY THEIR OWN ROCKETS?

Since THAT information is censored by Hamas, I doubt if you will get anything near a balanced view.



"The Israeli military said one rocket hit the southern city of Ashkelon and another fell short and landed inside Gaza"


And these anti-personnel rockets caused NO reported damage, while any Israeli bullet seeks out the nearest civilian…


"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jul 14 - 01:21 PM

BB seems to be having another bout of serial postarrhoea. Must have run out of paregoric & kaolin.