BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 06:58 PM

Two reporters in Gaza for The Wall Street Journal have deleted photographs that implicate Hamas in war crimes, namely using the Al Shifa hospital as a military headquarters, and media watchdog CAMERA, the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America, on Tuesday asked them why the posts were removed? So far, CAMERA has received no answers from the reporters or from their editors, but the group said the deleted posts might be further evidence of Hamas intimidating journalists.

Media Watchdog Asks Why WSJ Reporters Deleted Twitter Photos Implicating Hamas in War Crimes

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:15 PM

Two reporters in Gaza for The Wall Street Journal have deleted photographs that implicate Hamas in war crimes

And you know this to be true .....HOW?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 08:16 PM

You lot fucking disgust me!

You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

Conducting a pissing contest over the dead bodies of men, women and children, whether Israeli, Palestinian or any other nationality.

You are all seriously in need of psychiatric help.

They are all human beings for fucks sake, and all you can do is try to score points off each other.

The Israeli government and Hamas differ only in the vast disparity in military might, which renders talk of self defence moot.

But you lot are worse than any of them, because you all condone the actions of one pack of murderers or the other.

One of you spoke of the majority of dead Gazans being men of military age. The sly implication being both obvious and WRONG.

Well 40% of Gaza's population are under 14 and UNICEF estimates 30% of casualties are children, then there's the many women killed.

A shell fired into Gaza has a 50/50 chance of hitting a child, but that chance is getting smaller as they are killed off.

Hamas' actions are indefensible, as well as ineffective, but if somebody surrounded your country with barbed wire, ask yourself how you would react.

As long as people like you continue to take a hard line partisan stance, these conflicts will never end.

Both sides have to give some concessions, not demand abject, humiliating complete surrender.

You people have turned this forum into a cesspit I no longer wish to visit.

Thanks a BUNCH!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:06 AM

Troubadour, do read this Time magazine piece from 3 days ago with an open mind.
Perhaps you missed it earlier.

"Analyses of the casualties listed in the daily reports published by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, a Gaza-based organization operating under Hamas rule, indicate that young males ages 17 to 30 make up a large portion of the fatalities, and a particularly noticeable spike occurs between males ages 21 to 27, a pattern consistent with the age distribution typically found among combatants and military conscripts. Palestinian sources attempt to conceal this discrepancy with their public message by labeling most of these young men as civilians. Only a minority is identified as members of armed groups. As a result, the PCHR calculates civilian fatalities at 82% as of July 26. PCHR provides the most detailed casualty reports of the various Palestinian agencies from Gaza that provide figures to the media and to international organizations like the UN. Its figures closely match those of the Hamas-run Gazan Health Ministry and other groups.

We have seen this before. A similar dispute over casualty figures occurred during Israel's "Operation Cast Lead" in the Gaza Strip in January 2009. The Israelis contended that the majority of the fatalities were combatants; the Palestinians claimed they were civilians. The media and international organizations tended to side with the Palestinians. The UN's own investigatory commission headed by Richard Goldstone, which produced the Goldstone Report, cited PCHR's figures along with other Palestinian groups providing similar figures. Over a year later, after the news media had moved on, Hamas Interior Minister Fathi Hammad enumerated Hamas fatalities at 600 to 700, a figure close to the Israeli estimate of 709 and about three times higher than the figure of 236 combatants provided by PCHR in 2009 and cited in the Goldstone Report. "
http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-hamas-palestinian-casualties/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:14 AM

graphical analysis here.
http://honestreporting.com/analysis-of-gazans-killed-so-far-in-operation-protective-edge/

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:27 AM

"Because that's from Hamas which he unquestioningly believes."
No - because that is what is being reported from the human rights groups and U.N. agencies, which people like you have described as being Antisemitic.
Somewhere between 50 and 70 Palestinians died and around 200 were injured almost immediately following the breaking of the ceasefire yesterday.
Considering Israeli policy is to kill and destroy everything in range, 1,000 dead civilians is a pretty poor showing for them - back to the practice-range when they get home.
It really is worth reading what Troubadour has just written
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:35 AM

Jim, Hamas supplies the figures to UN, and tells them how many were civilians.
They have been known to lie, and did lie about this last time.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:39 AM

"graphical analysis here."
Your analysis comes from 'Honest Reporting Defending Israel from media bias' (their own description)
Jim Carroll

Honest reporting
The American Journalism Review described the organisation as a "pro-Israeli pressure group".[6]
After being criticized by HonestReporting for articles published by The Independent, author Robert Fisk wrote in the Independent that some of their readers sent him hate-mail.[7]
Following a 2004 article published in the British Medical Journal which criticised Israel for a high level of Palestinian civilian casualties and claimed that the pattern of injuries suggested routine targeting of children in situations of minimal or no threat, the journal received over 500 responses to its website and nearly 1,000 sent directly to its editor. In an analysis of the responses published in the journal, Karl Sabbagh concluded that the correspondence was orchestrated by Honest Reporting and aimed at silencing legitimate criticism of Israel. In his analysis Sabbagh pointed to evidence that that the correspondents had not read the article. Sabbagh also documented a significant proportion of offensive, abusive and racist insults among the correspondence. An editorial by the BMJ referred to the campaign as bullying and said that the best way to counter such behaviour was to expose it to public scrutiny.[8][9] Daniel Finkelstein, associate editor of The Times, responded that Sabbagh's piece was "anti-Israel propaganda" that did not meet even "basic academic standards" of scientific analysis.[10]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:56 AM

The figures come from Hamas and are the ones quoted by UN.
Check them.
They just displayed them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 06:26 AM

"The figures come from Hamas and are the ones quoted by UN."
The figures come from a blog from a pro Israel site ISRAELLCOOL and is printed with permission - read your own postings.
Honest Reporting is a pro-Israeli propaganda site with an unsavoury reputation for inaccuracy and incitement to persecution
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 06:32 AM

Italian journalist Gabriele Barbati said he was able to speak freely about witnessing a Hamas misfire that killed nine children at the Shati camp, confirming the Israel Defense Forces version of events, but only after leaving Gaza, "far from Hamas retaliation."

On Twitter, Barbati, Jerusalem Correspondent for Radio Popolare Milano, and a former reporter for Sky Italia, in Beijing, said, "Out of #Gaza far from #Hamas retaliation: misfired rocket killed children yday [yesterday] in Shati. Witness: militants rushed and cleared debris."

He said, "@IDFSpokesperson said truth in communique released yesterday about Shati camp massacre. It was not #Israel behind it."

On Tuesday, the IDF released aerial photos showing how a rocket from Gaza targeting Israel hit the Shati camp, run by the UNRWA, and Al Shifa Hospital, which has become a de-facto Hamas headquarters, against international rules of war.

Barbati said he was unable to speak about the Al Shifa hit, but he was certain that it was a Hamas rocket that hit the Shati camp, and a witness saw militants rushing to clean the debris.

Italian Journalist Defies Hamas: 'Out of Gaza Far From Hamas Retaliation: Misfired Rocket Killed Children in Shati'

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

No Jim.
YOU did not read.
The analysis was done on this list of casualties from Al Jazeera.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/gaza-under-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:08 AM

A recommended read from Howard Jacobsen, British writer and op-ed columnist for The Independent. Recommended for everyone but especially for some of our British and Irish posters who might gain some small measure of insight from it.

Howard Jacobson: Let's see the 'criticism' of Israel for what it really is

When it comes to Israel we hear no good, see no good, speak no good. We turn our backsides to what we do not want to know about and bury it in distaste, like our own ordure. We did it and go on doing it with all official contestation of the mortality figures provided by Hamas. We do it with Hamas's own private executions and their policy of deploying human shields. We do it with the sotto voce admission by the UN that "a clerical error" caused it to mis-describe the bombing of that UN school which at the time was all the proof we needed of Israel's savagery. It now turns out that Israel did not bomb the school at all. But there's no emotional mileage in a correction. The libel sticks, the retraction goes unnoticed.

But I am not allowed to ascribe any of this to anti-Semitism. It is criticism of Israel, pure and simple.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:12 AM

"The figures come from a blog from a pro Israel site"
An afterthought in all this.
Producing a graph purporting that the children being slaughtered at this time are not really children is about as stomach-heaving as it gets.
Some time ago you indulged yourself in a similar piece of despicability.
During the discussion around that disturbing piece of film showing Palestinian children saying they would like to kill Israelis (hardly surprising in the light of what is happening at present) you were shown another piece of film showing Israeli children of three and four times the age of the Palestinian children, being shown around a military establishment, shown how to handle weapons, and stating they would like to kill Palestinians
Your response - the Israeli youths were children being children, that Palestinian CHILDREN were likely to turn out terrorists
Personally, it makes little difference to me what age these victims are - they are people, and it's about time you toe-rags got your heads around that fact
You describe Israeli deaths in this present conflict as "unprecedented due to the care they are taking not to kill civilians" despite the vast discrepency in their numbers.
You have said that "Israel does not lie".
You and your team quote uncritically directly from Israeli/Zionist propaganda sites.
Can I suggest that if you are going to ear your Shekels as self-appointed propagandist for the Israeli regime, you are really going to have to try to be a little less obvious
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:16 AM

Your Al Jazeera list means nothing presented as you just have - as I said your comes from a sie notorious for dishonest and intimidation - it point out that it was lifted from a pro-Israeli blog.
Read the fine print
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 07:34 AM

That Al Jazeera list provided by Hamas is the data portrayed in the graphs.

You are desperate to discredit the truth Jim, because it does not accord with your prejudices and preconceptions.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:56 AM

"You are desperate to discredit the truth Jim, because it does not accord with your prejudices and preconceptions."
Yeah - sure I am, and you are determined to prove that the children being slaughtered aren't really children (again).
maybe you'll get round to showing that all the dead women are really Hamas in drag - that should get Ake hammering on the door saying it's all a homosexual plot!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 11:46 AM

Look directly at the Al Jazeera list and count them.
Then count men of military age.
We have the facts, it is just about interpretation.

If they are "mostly civilians" as all the media keep saying, why are the figures so skewed towards young men?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 12:55 PM

Jimmy Boy does not care about the facts, or about dead Palestinian children-

He just wants to be able to blame Israel even when they are not guilty.



"the murder of up to a thousand Palestinian civilians by using them as humans shields and raining over 400 anti-personnel warheads upon them, while taking the concrete that could have been used for civilian shelters ( as done in Israel) to make tunnels to attack the civilian population of Israel."

OK my the Stooges- THEY will blame them all on Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 02:10 PM

He just wants to be able to blame Israel [for dead Palestinians] even when they are not guilty.

So Bullshot: the IDF   ISN'T firing those tank rounds and staging those air strikes?

Oh yeah, I forgot - its the Tralfamadorians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 02:34 PM

UN Blasted for Giving Rockets Found in Gaza School to Hamas

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 03:30 PM

"He just wants to be able to blame Israel even when they are not guilty."
Are you off your ******* head?
If they didn't kill the 1500 Palestinians, who did?
You peole are sickos - one presents cooked figured from an Israeli site, to prove dead children weren't really children, the other denies the killers aren't guilty, even though we've been watching it and reading about it for three weeks.
Another siclko on your team is little Booboo, who revels in the fact that these murdering bastards have a successful arms indusrty
From the Gathering weight thread
The US aid to Israel and the sale of US weapons to Israel HAS to stop COMPLETELY!
If the US stops forcing Israel to buy its weapons, then Israel will be able to use it's own ingenuously manufactured weapons, which will give Israel's economy a MASSIVE boost. Israel's "alliance" with the US is detrimental and crippling to Israel on all fronts, especially the economic front.
A brilliant piece by Canadian journalist Lawrence Solomon on the subject:
ISRAEL'S ARMS INDUSTRY
What he forgot to mention is who Israel's potential customers were.
ISRAEL'S ARMS CUSTOMERS?
What kind of people are they who try to sell arms to a racist/terrorist regime, and what kind of people lie to support them?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 04:36 PM

Ahmed, Hamid, and Jasser said they are frustrated by the international media, which offers sensational sound bites and ignores the full picture.

"Many people look at what is happening in Gaza as if Israel is the aggressor. But when you think deeply, Egypt offered a cease-fire and Israel immediately accepted it. It was supposed to start on July 5 at 9 a.m. Hamas refused the cease-fire. The full responsibility for any killings after July 5 lies with Hamas," Hamid said.

He added that Hamas accuses Israel of ethnic cleansing of Muslims, and the U.S. of being anti-Islam. But he said what is not reported is the number of mosques that exist in both Israel and America.

"Israel is fighting an impossible battle, on one front with nihilist political Islamists who willingly lead their populations to slaughter in the interest of religionized war for fictionalized spiritual gain rather than true political solution," she said. "An on another front, waging other battles with an international media reflecting an increasingly ignored and biased public opinion."

Ahmed added, "The sooner media commentary can be broadened to explain political Islamism, diplomatic and political powers globally can begin to plan the true long-term freedom of the Palestinians… a lasting liberation from the stranglehold of Hamas's political Islamism."

Pro-Israel Muslims Seek Alternative to Radical Islam as a Means for Peace

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:10 PM

And so it goes on!

People just like you, ignoring the real issue of hundreds of dead bodies from both sides, and desperately trying to pin blame on each other.

Bigots and xenophobes there AND HERE!
Do you ever think to question the word of your own preferred side? NO YOU DON'T!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 05:45 PM

Troubadour, Jim, Greg, Musket and all the other right-minded people here, just forget this God-forsaken thread and let the scumbags backwoodsman, beardedbruce, bobad, Keith and Sunset John and any of the other unreconstructed bigots I've missed out just carry on talking poison to each other. No-one is listening to them in any case. I'm not coming here any more. I recommend you do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:37 PM

Speech broadcast on Palestinian TV, April 20, 2007 by Dr. Ahmad Bahar of Hamas, Deputy speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council:

"This is Islam, that was ahead of its time with regards to human rights in the treatment of prisoners, but our people was afflicted by the cancerous lump, that is the Jews, in the heart of the Arab nation. Make us victorious over the infidels. Allah, take hold of the Jews and their allies, Allah, take hold of the Americans and their allies Allah, count them and kill them to the last one and don't leave even one."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 10:48 PM

To the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children's thirst with your blood. We will not leave until you leave the Muslim countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 11:05 PM

Hamas Spokesman on CNN says Israel Acting Just Like the Nazis

Oh Really?

The Mufti's Conversation with Hitler
(November 28, 1941)

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the most influential leader of the Arabs in Palestine, lived in Germany, during the Second World War He met Hitler. Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders on various occasions and attempted to coordinate Nazi and Arab policies in the Middle East. The following is a record of a conversation between the Fuhrer and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, in the Presence of Reich Foreign Minister and Minister Grobba in Berlin.

The Grand Mufti began by thanking the Fuhrer for the great honor he had bestowed by receiving him. He wished to seize the opportunity to convey to the Fuhrer of the Greater German Reich, admired by the entire Arab world, his thanks for the sympathy which he had always shown for the Arab and especially the Palestinian cause, and to which he had given clear espressos in his public speeches. The Arab countries were firmly convinced that Germany would win the war and that the Arab cause would then prosper: The Arabs were Germany's natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely the English, the Jews, and the Communists. They were therefore prepared to cooperate with Germany with all their hearts and stood ready to participate in the war, not only negatively by the commission of acts of sabotage and the instigation of revolutions, but also positively by the formation of an Arab Legion. The Arabs could he more useful to Germany as allies than might he apparent at first glance, both for geographical reasons and because of the suffering inflicted upon them by the English and the Jews. Furthermore, they had had close relations with all Moslem nations, of which they could make use in behalf of the common cause. The Arab Legion would he quite easy to raise. An appeal by the Mufti to the Arab countries and the prisoners of Arab, Algerian,Tunisian, and Moroccan nationality in Germany would produce a great number of volunteers eager to fight. Of Germany's victory the Arab world was firmly convinced, not only because the Reich possessed a large army, brave soldiers, and military leaders of genius, but also because the Almighty could never award the victory to an unjust cause.

In this struggle, the Arabs were striving for the independence and unity of Palestine, Syria and Iraq. They had the fullest confidence in the Fuhrer and looked to his hand for the balm on their wounds which had been inflicted upon them by the enemies of Germany.

The Mufti then mentioned the letter he had received from Germany, which stated that Germany was holding no Arab territories and understood and recognized the aspirations to independence and freedom of the Arabs, just as she supported the elimination of the Jewish national home.

A public declaration in this sense would be very useful for its propagandistic effect on the Arab peoples at this moment. It would rouse the Arabs from their momentary lethargy and give them new courage. It would also ease the Mufti's work of secretly organizing the Arabs against the moment when they could strike. At the same time, he could give the assurance that the Arabs would in strict discipline patiently wait for the right moment and only strike upon an order from Berlin.

With regard to the events in Iraq, the Mufti observed that the Arabs in that country certainly had by no means been incited by Germany to attack England, but solely had acted in reaction to a direct English assault upon their honor.

The Turks, he believed, would welcome the establishment of' an Arab government in the neighboring territories because they would prefer weaker Arab to strong European governments in the neighboring countries, and, being themselves a nation of 7 million, they had moreover nothing to fear from the 1.700,000 Arabs inhabiting Syria. Transjordan, Iraq. and Palestine.

France likewise would have no objections to the unification plan because she had conceded independence to Syria as early as 1936 and had given her approval to the unification of Iraq and Syria under King Faisal as early as 1933.

The Fuhrer replied that Germany's fundamental attitude on these questions, as the Mufti himself had already stated. was clear. Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine. which was nothing other than a center, in the form of a state, for the exercise of destructive influence by Jewish interests. Germany was also aware that the assertion that the Jews were carrying out the function of economic pioneers in Palestine was a lie. The work there was done only by the Arabs, not by the Jews. Germany was resolved, step by step, to ask one European nation after the other to solve its Jewish problem, and at the proper time direct a similar appeal to non-European nations as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 11:30 PM

Hitler and Haj Amin al-Husseini together

The Nazi Hamzar Muslim troops

The Elders Of Zion Propaganda

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Aug 14 - 11:37 PM

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion or The Protocols of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion is an antisemitic hoax purporting to describe a Jewish plan for global domination. It was first published in Russia in 1903, translated into multiple languages, and disseminated internationally in the early part of the 20th century. Henry Ford funded printing of 500,000 copies that were distributed throughout the US in the 1920s.

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis publicized the text as though it were a valid document, although it had already been exposed as fraudulent. After the Nazi Party came to power in 1933, it ordered the text to be studied in German classrooms. The historian Norman Cohn suggested that Hitler used the Protocols as his primary justification for initiating the Holocaust—his "warrant for genocide"

The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony by subverting the morals of Gentiles, and by controlling the press and the world's economies. It is still widely available today and even now sometimes presented as a genuine document, whether on the Internet or in print in numerous languages.

The Protocols is a fabricated document purporting to be factual. It was originally produced in Russia between 1897 and 1903, possibly by Pyotr Ivanovich Rachkovsky, head of the Paris office of the Russian Secret Police, and unknown others.

More Here

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 03:43 AM

"Just forget this God-forsaken thread and let the scumbags backwoodsman,"
I go along with that - they are doing a far better job of exposing Israel as the war criminal she is than we ever could.
It will be sickeningly interest to see how they deal with the claim of "defence" when the final body-bag count of all those dangerously aggressive Palestinian civilians - all those women and children particularly must have been a threat to be reckoned with!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 03:54 AM

I'll leave them with the sound of Vin Garbutt singing " When the Tide Turns"

Israel's moral high ground has been completely and undeniably shattered now and Western leaders are falling over each other to be seen to be at one with their voters who are sickened by this.

There is at last a level playing field where both Israel and Hamas are seen as two sides of the same bomb. That is constructive as The USA are less prone to be one sided when peace terms are discussed. Israel has to do what the money tells it to do and Hamas have to see how the rest of the Middle East are pissed off with them.

I hope Israel can afford the bill for reconstructing Gaza. That is the eventual reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 04:00 AM

Hamas chose to make war on Israel.
They target civilians but can not be stopped without killing more civilians.

A maniac drives into a playground and starts shooting, but he has filled the car with his own kids.

Should you take the shot, or wait until he runs out of live kids or bullets?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 05:53 AM

"Hamas chose to make war on Israel."
Utter Crap - Israel started by clearing Arabs out of Palestine before the birth of the state - Nine years of blockade have made the lives of ordinary Palestinians intolerable - israel is now making war on women nd children - go count the dead.
Whatever Hamas might be, it has done nothing but offer resistance to Israeli aggression.
Your example is as as offensively disgusting as is your on-going support for genocide and ethnic cleansing.
A letter from the Sunday Times - which will be ignored by you and your as has every Jewish statement made in opposition to what is happening
"TRAGIC IRONY
My own family were lucky to flee from Austria in 1938. Of my 14 relatives who didn't, 13 were killed in concentration camps; the 14th had earlier been beaten to death in the street. Nowadays when I voice my dismay at what Israel is doing I get called Snti-semitic.
George Solt,
Olney,
Buckinghamshire"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 06:24 AM

If Hamas had not seized power, Gaza would probably be a prosperous region and tourist destination.
There is no reason why Gaza has to be at war with Israel.
Hamas chose that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,hw
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 07:59 AM

"Never Again" for Anyone

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 08:07 AM

"Gaza would probably be a prosperous region and tourist destination."
At the rate Israel was cutting chunks off it, it would probably ended up as a beach with a couple of ice-cream kiosks - don't think I've ever come across such a total misinterpretation of historical fact.
"Hamas chose that."
War was a fact of life for Palestinians before Hamas was a twinkle in anybody's eye.
You really are not earning your Shekels - do your homework, you nasty little man, or you'll have to stay behind and do 100 lines after school!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 08:27 AM

Why so abusive, Jim? What good you think it does your side of the argument?

As to "historical fact". My History teacher for Higher Schools, back in the 1940s, used to say that, properly speaking, "every history essay should begin with Adam & Eve". We all knew what he meant.

So where, historically, should this thread begin:
1200 BC (Moses)?
135 AD (Hadrian's diaspora)?
1880s-90s (beginning of Jewish immigration)?
1896 (Theodor Herzl's 'The Jewish State')?
1917 (Balfour Declaration)?
1948 (Declaration of State in accordance with UN Resolution followed by invasion by all surrounding Arab states)?...

It really doesn't do to oversimplify...

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:20 AM

Jim, Israel is not cutting bits off Gaza.
Gaza does not have to be at war with Israel, and if it were not there would be no blockade.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 09:35 AM

Just a reminder:

The rockets are not because of the blockade, the blockade is because of the rockets.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:01 AM

I suppose in the vernacular, an elected government can be said to "seize power." Although the only reason you would say it is that they have a single focus, for which they had no mandate, to agitate and force the backers of Israel to think again. In that, Hamas are forcing the issue. That said, Israel would never lift the blockade anyway, as any serious observer would notice. It was there before Hamas were elected.

I am reading Political diaries and by coincidence, one diarist is noting January 2009 when Israel tried bombing a democratically elected government. He notes that The UK voted for a UN resolution for a ceasefire but The USA abstained, the first time we voted differently to The USA regarding Israeli aggression. Hamas said they weren't bound by the ceasefire as they hadn't been consulted. As bad as they are, and as cynical as I am over their aims, over and above the peace that Palestinians crave for, you can't help noticing the arrogance of many Western countries, ignoring elected governments when they don't like them and supporting dictatorships when it suits.

The diarist also notes that Egypt and Saudi Arabia (remembering this was five years ago) did as they were told by The USA in the same way the maharajas and rajas did when we ran India.

Move forward five years and one thing has changed. Israeli atrocities are front page news and that makes politicians sit up and think.

Right now, they are thinking of the latest bombing of a school run by The UN. Obviously, the Israeli militants decided the world wasn't outraged enough when it happened last week so they chose another.

Steve Shaw is right though. I should leave blood to the bloodthirsty. Terrorism to the terrorist sympathisers.

Have you noticed that when you point out how Mudcat is being infiltrated by extremists and bigots, it is they who accuse decent people of the same? Guess which minister of propaganda used that tactic in the '30s?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:02 AM

Another reminder of a bit of quite recent "historical fact".

2004-05

The Israeli Government wanted to make concessions to the Palestinians. So they resolved to withdraw the entire Israeli presence from the Gaza Strip, bordering the Sinai Peninsula, neighbouring Egypt. They had forcibly to evict the inhabitants of some settlements who declined to leave voluntarily, and rehouse them in other parts of Israel ~~ not entirely to their delight!

Then they left Gaza to govern itself. So the Palestinian population organised and held free elections.

And who did they elect to govern them?

Why, Hamas -- who else?

With results that we are all on about here.

Honest, now, if you were the Knesset, or any member of the population of Israel, what lessons would you draw from that sequence of events?

Just asking --

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:30 AM

There was no blockade when Israel quit Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:36 AM

I suppose in the vernacular, an elected government can be said to "seize power."

They won a majority of seats on the Palestinian Legislative Council, not a mandate to rule Gaza.
They achieved that through a violent coup.

That said, Israel would never lift the blockade anyway, as any serious observer would notice.

They have eased it considerably.
They used to prohibit building materials because Hamas might use them to build military infrastructure, and they did.

Gaza declared war and Israel declared a blockade as any country would.
The difference is that most countries would apply a total blockade against a belligerent, not just an economic one.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 10:36 AM

Another reminder as to the "elected" government of Hamas:

Hamas won a PLURALITY (not majority) in a LEGISLATIVE election in 2006. The directly elected President (in 2005) was (and remained) Abbas. The election results were 44% for Hamas and 41% for Fatah. After Hamas failed to form a government, about a year after the election, Hamas and Fatah reached a power-sharing unity government under the Mecca Agreement (brokered by the Saudis). Then in June of 2007 Hamas perpetrated a violent coup (throwing Fatah officials off roof-tops) and illegally seized all power. Only about 20% of the PA population supported this military takeover.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 12:39 PM

"Gaza does not have to be at war with Israel, and if it were not there would be no blockade."
You mean surrender itself to being a permanent ghetto
Piss of Keith - you sound more like Lord Haw-Haw with every posting
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 01:18 PM

And you sound more like a vulgar, foul-mouthed little yobbo, I regret to observe, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 01:38 PM

"Honest, now, if you were the Knesset, or any member of the population of Israel, what lessons would you draw from that sequence of events?"
The lesson that it was nowhere near enough.
Gaza is a ghetto - it is now being referred to as the world's largest open prison.
Expecting people to continue living in those circumstances is inhuman.
Israel's 'concessions' were, in fact a demand of surrender to the status quo - would you have expected that of the residents of the Warsaw Ghetto to have been grateful for such a concession - "we won't let any more of our people take over your homes and we'll remove a handful of those that have moved in unofficially - oh, and by the way, we reserve the right to decide which leaders govern you?
Personally, the way the Israeli regime has behaved and counting the dead (Keith and co have noticeably refused to acknowledge that rather unpleasant fact, other than to give it their full support) I think the Palestinians would be insane to accept anything less than the removal of the blockade and the Berlin walls and having the U.N. on hand to see that this does not happen again.
I suggest you read what the supports of Israel have contributed here if you want some idea of how suicidal it would be to settle for anything less - these people are inhuman.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 01:44 PM

Jim, for sure, and probably some others have tried to equate, obliquely, criticism of Israel by such as Einstein and Oz with anti-Semitism. Manifestly they are not anti-Semites. Here is a recent excerpt from Die Welt of an interview 9translated) with Amos Oz.

----------

[Q] You have been talking about a long-term solution. But what could a short-term agreement look like?
[A] The present hostilities will only stop, unfortunately, when one of the parties or both of them are exhausted. This morning I read very carefully the charter of Hamas. It says that the Prophet commands every Muslim to kill every Jew everywhere in the world. It quotes the Protocols of the Elders of Zion [anti-Semitic diatribe - the ed.] and says that the Jews controlled the world through the League of Nations and through the United Nations, that the Jews caused the two world wars and that the entire world is controlled by Jewish money. So I hardly see a prospect for a compromise between Israel and Hamas. I have been a man of compromise all my life. But even a man of compromise cannot approach Hamas and say: 'Maybe we meet halfway and Israel only exists on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays.'

----------

Lest Jim, Steve (oh, I forgot he's not here anymore)or musket think I'm cherry-picking, I have provided both the German and English links for those who wish to read the entire interview:

http://www.dw.de/amos-oz-israel-kann-nur-verlieren/a-17823004

http://www.dw.de/oz-lose-lose-situation-for-israel/a-17822511

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Aug 14 - 02:12 PM

Hamas is making the most of the materials they have to hand, their own media outlet, the international media, the rockets they obtained over (or under) the Gaza-Egyptian border, the bodies of their people, the bodies of every Israeli victim they can obtain, and an overall strategy not unlike that of the Algerians in "Battle of Algiers".

Unfortunately for everyone, the ideological battle is kept alive by ignoring context. Ignoring the frequent attempts over the years to obtain a peace under the Aegis of America, and the many many attempts at terror from the Arabs.

The Palestinian people are not landholders with legal rights. They are DP (Displaced People). No one wants to take responsibility for them, and they are not making themselves an attractive proposition for anyone, least of all for Israel. Rather than seek an outlet where an outlet may be found or made, they double down on the proposition that they can get Israel down not to 1967 borders, but to pre-1948 non-existence.

Isolating Israel on the part of the world community, if that is what is going on, is only going to make things worse for the Palestinians. An insecure Israel is simply going to insist on an even less secure Palestine.

So there is a level at which the current festivities play to Israel's perception, that Hamas would rather shoot than talk, that every uninspected shipment to Gaza is suspect, that under the administration of Gaza by Hamas even construction materials are war materiel.

Israel tells Hamas you can keep your rockets