BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

Hey BS Bruce: once again, your steel-trap mind has failed you - wrong thread, buddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 12:32 PM

Err.. Bruce. In 2013 The UN issued 21 resolutions censoring Israel and one censoring North Korea, I suppose it is to be expected that a thread about Israel and Palestine might just throw up some of the atrocities and fringes of the Israeli state?

Ditto your cut & parts bit about guinea pigs. Thanks for posting it twice. Almost as funny on this thread as the other one.

Leave the propaganda for those impressed by it eh? There are some on here capable of finding out all sides accounts and reaching their own conclusions. Just because we humour Keith and Poo Bad doesn't mean they contribute, it just means we like entertainment.

zzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:16 PM

"The report covered in some detail - no Islamic plots, no bomb-making classes - just schools teaching religion - with a few unsubstantiated rumours thrown in".
Most of the 'problems' described are common to most schools run by religious bodies (which I don't approve of in any circumstances and whatever the religion).
O Bearded One.
Are you suggesting that Ofsted found no Islamism because they didn't do their job properly, or simply because they lied about not having done so?
As I said - a damp squib, with an added advantage that Muslim students in Britain are reckoned to be educationally the highest cultural group of achievers in the land, and the most dedicated to learning - official.
"My country is under attack. Do you care?"
Then he must know what it feels like to be any Palestinian man, woman or child living next to a country dedicated to terrorism in order to push its boundries in order to create a monocultural state - poor basrtard - my heart bleeds for him!
Jim Carroll

GOVE TOLD TO LAUNCH 'DAWN RAIDS' ON SCHOOLS
Cameron takes charge after ministers' bust-up
Francis Elliott, Greg Hurst

David Cameron has ordered Michael Gove to start work on "dawn- raid" inspections after officials found schools covering up evidence of Islamist infiltration.
The prime minster, angered and embarrassed by a bust-up between his education and home secretaries on the issue, will take charge today of the response to two official reports on allegations of extremist Muslims taking over Birmingham schools.
Mr Gove and Theresa May have been summoned to a meeting in No 10 early today in what amounts to a further public rebuke for the rift first exposed by The Times last week.
Rattled by Labour's accusation that in-fighting is hampering the govern¬ment's response, Downing Street re¬leased last night the key findings of the reports and what action it will take.
One of the most serious findings is that staff at one of the schools involved used the notice period given before an inspection to stage "hastily arranged shows of cultural inclusivity", among them lessons on Christianity and an assembly on Easter.
Speaking before today's meeting, Mr Cameron said: "Protecting our children is one of the first duties of government and that is why the issue of alleged Islamist extremism in Birmingham schools demands a robust response.
The education secretary will now ask Sir Michael Wilshaw [the head of Ofsted] to look into allowing any school to be inspected at no notice and stop¬ping schools having the opportunity to cover up activities which have no place in our society."
The disclosures will begin in the early afternoon as Ofsted publishes full inspection reports for five schools where the problems were most acute. It will also publish findings into 16 other schools in the "Trojan Horse" scandal.
Sir Michael will recommend new rules to curb the infiltration of schools, including tighter vetting of governors and more stringent checks on their interests and activities.
At the same time, Mr Gove will pub¬lish reports into visits to a handful of the schools by staff from the Department for Education's funding agency, which monitors academies. This will raise more concerns about radicalisation than those from Ofsted.
It is these reports that have led to demands for "dawn-raid" inspections.
One, about Oldknow school, says that "staff told us that they had been instructed to add Christianity to learning because of our visit". The report adds:
We were told by two staff members that the assembly [on Easter and Chris¬tianity] had also been put on especially for our benefit." Officials also found that a time-tabled literacy lesson was switched for an RE lesson on Christianity before the inspection. Government sources say that the findings of the Ofsted inspections also underline the need for "no-notice" in-spections. "The previous inspections Pupils in a Birmingham primary school were warned by teachers about "white prostitutes" and "hellfire", a report says.
One teacher was said to have led a chant at an assembly, asking children: "Do we believe in Christmas?" The pupils chanted back: "No, we don't"
Teachers and children at Oldknow Academy, in Small Heath, were said to refer to Christians as "kaffirs", an Ara¬bic word meaning unbeliever or infidel.
A series of criticisms of Oldknow are set out in a report by the Education Funding Agency, part of the Depart¬ment for Education, which monitors academies although its chief role is to check their accounts. Concerns include the conduct of school assemblies on Fridays, the chief day of worship for Muslims, The Mail on Sunday reported.
"We were told by teachers that non- Muslim teaching staff are no longer allowed to take Friday assemblies," the report said.
"In separate interviews, staff told us that in Friday assemblies, occasionally words have been used such as 'white prostitute' and 'hellfire' which they felt were inappropriate for young children."
The criticisms of Oldknow Academy by DfE officials appear to be more serious than those by Ofsted, which made a separate inspection of the school but was said to have found no evidence of anti-Christian chanting.
Ofsted previously declared Oldknow outstanding in all areas when it inspected the school in January 2013, but in its new report the watchdog declares the school inadequate and to be in need of special measures.
The inspectorate found that at Saltley, another of the schools at the centre of the allegations, governors spent substantial amounts of money "with no obvious benefit" and said some teachers and other staff complained that they were treated unequally "because of their beliefs, religion or background". Saltley was rated good when it was last inspected in May last year However, inspectors returned last autumn after being alerted to concerns about governance and warned that the "dysfunctional relationship between the governors and the head teacher is damaging the school's capacity to improve".
The DfE will also publish its own report on Park View Academy. It was declared outstanding two years ago but will be downgraded to "in need of special measures". It was said by Ofsted to be failing to prepare its mostly Muslim pupils for wider society, although there was no evidence of extremist activity.
Inspectors said that children at the secondary school had "limited" understanding of different cultures and beliefs and a "superficial" grasp of awareness of life elsewhere in Britain.
This echoed concerns of inspectors about Golden Hillock, a secondary school that Park View took over last year as an academy sponsor. Ofsted said that its pupils were at risk of radicalisation and of growing up in "cultural isolation".
Ofsted said that senior staff and governors at Golden Hillock were not doing enough to keep pupils safe from extremist views. The school attacked the findings as a "misrepresentation" and said there was no evidence that the school tolerated or promoted radicalisation or extremism. Park View Educational Trust is preparing a legal challenge to Ofsted reports.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:19 PM

Since when did Israel have fringes? My iPad gets worse.

Could have been Freudian I suppose. Human rights seem to be a fringe concern there....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 03:25 PM

"Wilshaw said."

Yep, says it all really.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 14 - 04:11 PM

Musket.
Calling something made up isn't very clever Keith. In fact, as actions go, it has a density about it that refers to clitoral regions.

You said,
"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

That is completely untrue.
Made up.
False.

Re all those UN resolutions, it is not us.
Our government, like all democratic governments, abstained or voted against.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:32 AM

Keith. No we didn't. We voted and supported the outcome. That's called the democratic process.

You really have a low opinion of people's' intelligence don't you? Unless you leave the organisation as a result of a vote, you support it. Full stop. Remaining in The UN is supporting the resolutions of The UN. Any abstentions or otherwise serve purely to perpetuate the Bush Blair pact. We have a sad habit of asking The US how to vote and The US parties rely on pro Israeli funding. I suppose that's democracy too, sadly.

Whether the density of your clitoral region is high or otherwise is one thing, but don't post bullshit in the hope that people reading it are as dense.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 03:57 AM

The majority of voting UN members are dictatorships and tyrannical regimes and in the General Council they outvote liberal, libertarian democracies like ours.
They do not speak for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:25 AM

"There are no UN sanctions"

Oh well, that's alright then.

Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality.

There really are no UN sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 08:36 AM

Like I said, that's alight then.

Who said there were? I said there were resolutions and EU wide restrictions, (as it was impossible to make it NATO) on offensive arms and materials for atomic weapons.

Stop trying to turn resolutions into sanctions.

There really are UN resolutions.

They speak for us. We are members. Stop saying otherwise, prat.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 08:50 AM

UN Sanctions Report - No mention of Israel

As for all those "resolutions" if you read through them they are totally ridiculous and none of them paint the UN as an International organisation in a very good light

Of the 21 referring to Israel in 2013 two are actually targeted at those countries that are non-signatories of the Nuclear NPT - so not specifically an anti-Israeli resolution.

The remainder witter on about the integrity of the borders of Palestinian land which of course is a nonsense - Nowhere have I seen any agreement as to what actually constitutes the borders of this Palestinian land that the Palestinians agree to. Nowhere is the sovereign right of the State of Israel or the integrity of its borders mentioned - rather hypocritical that don't you think.

The right of Palestinians to live free from attack and the threat of attack also features large in these resolutions - pity it doesn't mention their predilection for attacking Israel which seems to be OK as far as the UN is concerned.

Rights of return and compensation is mentioned but apparently the 820,000 Jews dispossessed and forcibly deported from Arab lands where they resided for centuries do not merit any right of return or compensation.

Seems like those Arabs of Palestine firmly believe in one law for the goose and another one entirely for the gander.

Little wonder nobody bothers with these resolutions - they are ridiculous.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 09:19 AM

Musket, when I said there were no UN sanctions you challenged it saying it was outside of reality.
You were wrong and I was right, as ever.

You also said," In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

There are not.
You were wrong and I was right, as ever.

There are no such sanctions against Israel that might apply to a British company exporting to Israel, so your little story was made up.
You can sell them invisible ink, false moustaches and anything else you want.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 10:15 AM

"You were wrong, I was right as ever.."

That's funny.

The fact that you are talking out of your arse makes it fucking hilarious.

The fact that you write in such a manner has most people on Mudcat squirm as they read it. Haven't you noticed? No, perhaps not. Your circle of pretend soldiers all speak like that. The likes of Paul Whitehouse etc get a lot of mileage out of the sad buggers in their sketches and they all seem to talk like that. Are an advisor to The Fast Show perchance?

I never mentioned sanctions, I have repeated this for half a dozen posts and still you think nobody will notice.

You cannot sell offensive nor nuclear weaponry technology to the rogue state of Israel from within The EU. I am not aware that the restriction has altered, especially as the resolutions build up. Granted, you claim to be something to do with soldiers (a lass I once knew had something to do with soldiers for that matter) you tell me because I could never tell the difference between offensive and defensive when it comes to conventional weaponry.

There again, JCB sell them defensive bulldozers.

Nice...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 11:19 AM

Sensitive nuclear material can not be sold to anyone.
Israel is not singled out in anyway.
It is an associate EU member, not a "rogue state."

You said,
"In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

There are not and we don't.
You are wrong.
I was right, as ever.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 12:05 PM

You can call me a rude name, but it changes nothing.
You were shown to be wrong about basic facts, and you tried to lie yourself out of it.
That is fact, not gratuitous abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 04:09 PM

Too true. It's the most copper bottomed fact I have said about you.

Not my fault you keep proving it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 05:22 PM

"And not ONE UN resolution calling for N. Korea to cease, nor one word of protest from the certified ( BY EU STANDARDS) Anti-Semites here. Seems like they can only bring up Israel, and have selective blindness on all other countries. THAT is ANTI-SEMITISM by definition."

Another diversionary device so typical of BB.

What would you expect to find under discussion in a thread entitled "Small hope for Israel/Palestine?"

Space travel?

Once again, for the terminally confused: The fact that others are as bad, or worse, does not excuse the behaviour of Israel's hard line racist government.

And reporting events of two years ago, begs the question "What about now, and Israel's devious destruction of what were purported to be "Peace Talks", which in truth were cover for more West Bank settlements.

The current Israeli government makes a corkscrew look like the shortest distance between two points.

They have elevated dishonesty and dishonour to an art form.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 07:51 PM

Glad you put "peace talks" in quotes. There have been no meaningful peace talks for decades (though there have been plenty of charades perpetrated by the US/Israel axis), and there is no prospect of any to come. Why? Because the Israeli regime knows that it is totally immune from ever having to compromise. The US, and, in particular, AIPAC and its undemocratic fellow-travellers, will always see to that. AIPAC ensures that compromise talk from you equals your conversion to toast.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM

Another diversionary device so typical of BB.

Not a diversionary device at all - just another instance of his tired "anti-Semitism" horseshit routine.

Predictable as well as boring.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:41 AM

"There have been no meaningful peace talks for decades (though there have been plenty of charades perpetrated by the US/Israel axis), and there is no prospect of any to come. Why? Because the Israeli regime knows that it is totally immune from ever having to compromise."

There have been "meaningful" peace talks (Certainly between Israel and the Egyptians and Jordanians) but on each occasion involving the Arabs of Palestine the Arabs have pulled back as solutions have seemed to have appeared.

As I have said before nothing can be done until the Arabs of Palestine give formal recognition to the State of Israel and the right of its citizens to live in peace free from attack and free from the threat of attack. No nation should ever have to compromise its national security in the interest of others. Israel can not only survive but thrive without the Arabs of Palestine, the converse, however is not true, the Arabs of Palestine rely on Israel to provide the prosaic things in life, the Palestinians themselves having been on the receiving end of the world's largesse in the form of billions in aid for more than fifty years have achieved nothing and there is a reason for that - Had that aid been put to "good use" the "leaders of these "Palestinians" would have had to have worked for a living. It is in the interests of the "Palestinian leadership" to keep their Palestinians in abject poverty and totally reliant on meagre handouts - doubt that Mr. Shaw? Then please explain why there are "Palestinian Refugee Camps" in territory claimed as Palestinian and governed entirely by Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:12 AM

As you can see, one of my posts has been deleted.

No matter.

It was only two words.

Only really for consideration by Keith.

I make the diagnosis.

He exhibits the symptoms.

Life goes on.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:18 AM

I demonstrate your ignorance and dishonesty.
You call me a naughty name.
No contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:49 AM

On the basis you couldn't recognise the truth if it leapt up and shouted boo.

Not much point in educating pork. Why reason with an agenda?

Better to contemplate the density of the clitoral aspects eh ?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:50 AM

Reasoned, informed argument versus playground name calling.
No contest.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:54 AM

Fell at the first word.

Then the second.

Mind you, I always felt guilty standing looking at the chimps tea party at the zoo. I felt it was somehow wrong. Perhaps I should stop taking you at face value and just let you get on with your fantasy. It's for the best.






There again, it does give light relief on a busy day...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:15 AM

Still no actual facts from you.
Just unfunny funnies.

I produce facts and information, you farts and insults.
No contest.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 07:45 AM

And what's all this "pork" you keep going on so pejoratively about, Musk? I don't think there is any place for speciesism or anti-piggery on this forum.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:12 AM

You can only be anti piggery if you try educating it and assess it as capable of holding its own in an argument Michael.

In Keith's case, his insistence of sticking his finger in his ear and shouting La La I can't hear you! when his stance doesn't reflect reality says it all. He just got caught out not knowing the difference between resolution and sanction and is trying to blush his way through it by saying The UN is over rated anyway.

Maybe it is, but Keith, through his citizenship is bound by it. Someone tell him Rambo doesn't exist.


Oh, just to correct your typo Keith, I produce facts and insults, my dog supplies the farts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM

Another war crime (violation of the Geneva Conventions) by Palestinians- Waiting on the UN resolution about it...


Militants fire rocket from Gaza Strip into Israel
Associated Press By IAN DEITCH

JERUSALEM (AP) — Militants in the Gaza Strip fired a rocket into Israel on Wednesday for the first time since rival Palestinian factions formed a national unity government, the Israeli military said.

Israel has warned it would hold the Western-backed Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas responsible for any attacks out of Gaza since he formed a new government last week with the backing of the Islamic militant group Hamas, which seized control of Gaza in 2007.

There are no Hamas members in the government, but the armed group backs the new Cabinet. Israel and the West consider Hamas, which is sworn to Israel's destruction and has killed hundreds of Israelis in suicide bombings on buses and in cafes along with other deadly attacks, a terrorist group.

Nobody was wounded by the rocket, which exploded on a road in the south of the country, Israeli police said.

Deputy defense minister Danny Danon called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to take action following Wednesday's attack. "This rocket fire is the direct result of the Hamas-supported government," Danon said. He said Israel should halt the transfer of taxes it collects on behalf of the Palestinians.

Thousands of rockets have been fired from Gaza over the years. The majority of them have been crude projectiles that disrupt daily life, damage property and spread panic. But they have also caused casualties. Israel has held Hamas responsible, sometimes retaliating with airstrikes.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:34 AM

Musket, you tried to make it about "resolutions" when you had been proved ignorant and wrong about "sanctions and "restrictions" and even made up a story about it.
Proof.

Musket - PM
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 02:48 PM
"There are no UN sanctions"
Oh well, that's alright then.
Sorry, I didn't understand the rules. You didn't say we can't include reality.

Musket - PM
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 10:11 AM
I don't know about invisible ink, you put that, presumably to make you look foolish.
The EU restrictions apply. They apply to all countries under UN and a concordat of EU countries is in place over it. It covers offensive rather than defensive arms and anything used for nuclear weapons. The USA are the main breakers of the myriad resolutions covering it.



And of course, " Western governments who use resolutions such as this to rein in rogue states. In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state. "

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 10:00 AM

I dont understand your point Keith. Get your Corporal to read it to you again.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM

There have been "meaningful" peace talks (Certainly between Israel and the Egyptians and Jordanians)

Passing over the point for a minute that the thread is supposedly about Israel/Palestine, why yes, there have been the "peace talks" you refer to. The upshot was cod-westernisation of those countries, including the propping up of an undemocratic "kingdom" in the one and of a decades-long dictatorship in the other. So that did a lot of good, eh? Look how it's left Egypt. Are we supposed to be proud of that outcome, or do you wash your hands of it all because these feckless Arabs couldn't do anything right in a million years? Can't really win with you, can they?

As for those billions in aid to "Arabs", are we supposed to overlook the billions in aid to Israel, especially military (not to speak of special trade deals, etc.), a nation about as populous as Scotland? To make a fair comparison with your point about the Arabs, do you suppose that Israel would have got by without all that aid? The whole problem in the Middle East emanates from the fact that aid of any sort to Israel is virtually unconditional. And AIPAC et al. will always make sure that it is. If a naughty child gets away with its naughtiness time and time again without getting its botty smacked ever, it will come to think that naughtiness is normal, acceptable behaviour. Consider the brouhaha over the rumours that Iran was getting nukes or that Saddam had "WMDs", then remind yourself that Israel, in breach of international treaties to which its aid donors are signatories, has turned itself into a nuclear state. Give me your list of all the other currently non-nuclear states from which you'd find that kind of behaviour to be acceptable. Then consider the sheer partiality of your position. "Nothing can be done", eh? Plenty will be, though, with your attitude, and most of it will not be very nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:40 PM

Steve,

" Israel, in breach of international treaties to which its aid donors are signatories, has turned itself into a nuclear state."


This is an outright lie.
Israel had nuclear weapons BEFORE the ratification of the NPT, had chosen NOT to join it, and has abided by it's provisions anyway. IF it HAD signed the NPT, it would have been a "nuclear weapon state" like the US is.

Hardly a breach of a treaty it did not sign, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 02:52 PM

"However, Iraq was cited by the IAEA with punitive sanctions enacted against it by the UN Security Council for violating its NPT safeguards obligations;

North Korea never came into compliance with its NPT safeguards agreement and was cited repeatedly for these violations,[21] and later withdrew from the NPT and tested multiple nuclear devices;

Iran was found in non-compliance with its NPT safeguards obligations in an unusual non-consensus decision because it "failed in a number of instances over an extended period of time" to report aspects of its enrichment program;[22][23] and

Libya pursued a clandestine nuclear weapons program before abandoning it in December 2003."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 03:10 PM

Article I: Each nuclear-weapons state (NWS) undertakes not to transfer, to any recipient, nuclear weapons, or other nuclear explosive devices, and not to assist any non-nuclear weapon state to manufacture or acquire such weapons or devices.

Article II: Each non-NWS party undertakes not to receive, from any source, nuclear weapons, or other nuclear explosive devices; not to manufacture or acquire such weapons or devices; and not to receive any assistance in their manufacture.

Article III: Each non-NWS party undertakes to conclude an agreement with the IAEA for the application of its safeguards to all nuclear material in all of the state's peaceful nuclear activities and to prevent diversion of such material to nuclear weapons or other nuclear explosive devices.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:03 PM

Oh dear- another bout of serial postarrhoea. Ever think of changing your diet, BB?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:06 PM

Ever think of discussing facts instead of making un-based personal attacks?


No I guess not.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 04:07 PM

"
Ya got any actual facts you'd like to share, or just more editorials?"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 14 - 09:25 PM

The issue is not whether Israel signed things or not, though it's incredibly buttock-clenching to read about how the US have let Israel off the hook in this regard in such a lily-livered way. Truly, the US is Israel's poodle. The issue is that Israel is in breach of a treaty that its major aid donors subscribe to, and that those donors daren't say anything really. Mainly thanks to the undemocratic pro-Israel lobby, led by AIPAC, which, in the land of the free, dictates absolutely what politicians can and can't say about Israel. Now stop pissing around and let's hear you deny that.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:44 AM

Mr Shaw from the exchange regarding Israel the USA and the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty I can only infer that you are a complete and utter feckin' eedjit.

Israel's "peaceful" nuclear programme was started shortly after those of the United Kingdom and that of France, it is supposed that Israel became a nuclear weapon state about 13 years BEFORE the Nuclear NPT came into effect. Israel is a non-signatory to that treaty so could you explain to us all, by whatever convoluted stretch and leap of logic precisely why the terms and conditions of the said Nuclear NPT should apply to Israel?

Ah yes all that aid from the USA going to Israel. Well not exactly aid Mr.Shaw they are "credits" that Israel can use or not at their discretion, and they have to be spent in the USA, or if spent in Israel the work resulting from that spent is subject to certain restrictions and prior US approvals. Now why did the USA and Israel feel the need for this "aid"? Ever hear of a thing called "The Cold War"? When US President Dwight D. Eisenhower fucked up right royally in 1956 and failed to back the UK and France over Suez almost overnight he created the following situation for America and the middle-east:

1: Egypt under Nasser found it had a reinforceable border with Israel which included a massive salient projecting deeply into the former mandated territory of Palestine (Gaza) which Egypt had taken by force in 1948.

2: Had Eisenhower backed Britain and France then to get to Israel, Egypt, the leader of the pan-Arabist movement at the time, would have had to confront and break through territory controlled by two permanent sitting members of the UN Security Council (Britain and France) before it could ever create trouble with Israel.

3: The USSR's backing of Nasser meant that most Arabs states fell into the USSR's sphere of influence and the USSR started dishing out the aid she is best known for giving - ARMS

4: The Arab countries of North Africa meant that the USSR secured the Southern shores of the Mediterranean and for the first time ever the USA had to deploy a "Mediterranean Fleet" (IIRC it was the US Sixth Fleet) prior to that the US had maintained a naval presence in the Mediterranean dating back to the early 19th century at a "Naval Squadron" level.

Israel DID get by without that aid in 1948 and her armed forces have never looked back since. The IDF exists to PROTECT Israel whereas the armed forces of Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and every other armed group supported by Arab States exist to ensure that whoever is in power stays in power withing the confines of their own borders - i.e. to suppress civilian dissent, which is why they tend to fare badly when confronted with trained opposition.

Glad you brought up Egypt and the Army - Nothing to do with the "big, bad, West" - the Army has been in control of Egypt ever since Colonel Gamal Abdel Nasser deposed King Farouk of Egypt in 1952 - to date nothing whatsoever has changed.

I did bring up Egypt and Jordan because they made agreements with Israel that they got their land back if they stopped attacking Israel. Since signing those deals there have been no attacks - so those "peace talks" were not only "meaningful" they actually "worked". Different completely to the talks between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs and the Syrians, but exactly the same would apply if the attacks stopped then sovereignty would be respected (Israel as I said has a proven track record of holding to its agreements and keeping their side of the bargain - Hamas, Hezbollah and Al-Fatah on the other hand DO NOT)

Rather amused by your "naughty child" analogy. Now you tell me who is acting the part of the "Naughty Child":

1947 - UN propose a two-state solution, the Jews of Palestine agree the Arabs of Palestine reject the UN's proposals and opt for war in 1948 ( A war that they lose) Who was the "Naughty Child"?

1949 - After losing the War in 1948 the UN brokers a ceasefire in which Israel's Arab neighbours and the Arabs of Palestine sign agreeing to the borders defined by the agreement and to cease attacks on Israel. The attacks by Arab Fedayeen based in Egypt, Jordan and Syria continue from 1949 until 1956. Who is the "Naughty Child"?

Keeps going on in that vein right to this day (1967, 1973, 1978, 1982, 1993, 1996, 2000, 2005, 2006, 2008) - As far as the Arabs of Palestine go - their word is about as good as Hitler's was in the 1930s. Who is the "Naughty Child"?

67 years they have had to sort this out - let them get on with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

Bearded Bruce overlooks an important point, not that he lets it bother him.

When did Israel admit to having nuclear weapons in the first place? You can't have it both ways.

If Yorkshire, with a similar population had their billions, they could afford to clean out the grease traps in the chippy on the High St in Heckmondwike.

What are the billions being spent on for fuck's sake? Welfare programmes? Most Israelis can survive day to day without government handouts and are overall rather affluent compared to many people so the billions given have to be spent somewhere. Usually spent taking the piss out of UN resolutions.....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 06:22 AM

Mr. Shaw one question you seem to be assiduously dodging:

"Why after NINE Years are there still EIGHT Palestinian Refugee Camps in GAZA?"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 07:52 AM

Steve,

" Israel is in breach of a treaty that its major aid donors subscribe to"

This is a false statement , as shown by my previous post. Your repeating it makes you a liar, not just misinformed.




Musket,

AT THE TIME that the NPT was being signed, ISRAEL WOULD have been a NWS ++IF++ it had signed up. It chose NOT to sign, and therefore is NOT bound by the provisions that apply to SIGNATORIES. IF it had been a signatory, it would be a NWS.

You may say that it should have been a signatory, but then you need to address India and Pakistan, BOTH of which were NOT NWS at the time of the NPT, chose not to sign, and THEN developed nuclear weapons. Any criticism of Israel without holding Pakistan and India to the same standard is obvious bigotry, and Anti-Semetism according to the above referenced EU definition.

Which is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Musket
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:29 AM

I shall toss a coin.

Heads.

Anti semitism.

zzzzzzz







Trivia quiz. Brucie baby just mentioned three nuclear armed countries. Which of the three was already offence capable at the time of the agreement, hence refusing to sign something totally fucking different to the undertaking the other two had issues with?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:03 AM

Musket,

You seem to have problems with simple comprehension.

Israel was a NWS at the time of the NPT- IF it had signed it would have been entitled to keep those weapons and develop more, as the other NWS have done. Yet you complain about Israel.

Pakistan and India were NOT NWS at the time of the NPT- As non-NWS, they would have been forbidden from developing nuclear weapons and have been subject to inspections.
They chose NOT to sign, and then developed nuclear weapons. Yet you have nothing to say about Pakistan, or India.



So YOU criticize Israel for COMPLYING with a treaty IT DID NOT SIGN, nor get the benefits of, while keeping silent on nations such as Iran that have signed the treaty, then violated the terms after getting the benefits????


Sounds like you are BOTH a bigot and an Anti-Semite ( by EU definition)

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:06 AM

Trivia quiz, Muskie Baby:


How many time will you prove yourself a bigot and Anti-Semite ( by the EU definition) ?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:34 AM

More of the same tired old "anti-Semetic" horseshit, eh BB?

I seem to remember something about bullshit being the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 11:48 AM

And that is why YOU are the Mudcat expert on bullshit- it is all you have ever presented when asked for facts.

And the definition fits- Musket and YOU are both anti-Semites by the EU definition, from your own postings.


So go back to your guinea pigs and let the rest of us discuss the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

What the holy fuck are you talking about with the guinea pigs?!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jun 14 - 12:21 PM

You bet, BullshitBruce: All those thousands of Israeli citizens, the Society of Friends(Quakers), Amnesty International & etc. etc. etc - who oppose the policies of the Israeli Government, what it is perpetrating in the Occupied Teritories, its human rights abuses etc. - Anti-Semites, every man (and woman) jack of 'em.

All part of the Vast International Anti-Semetic Conspiracy, each & every one.

... discuss the facts.

When do you plan to begin?