BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:56 PM

Normally I would not past a whole piece onto this site. But I do so in this case so that 1) it can't be said to have been taken out of context, and 2) to show it is not just at the boogy-man site, Wikipedia. No changes have been made except for the addition of the date in [ ], and highlighting points within ****.

As I wrote here or even in other threads, if you argue using antiSemitic terms, what are we to think about you.

------

The Ottawa Protocol on Combating Antisemitism [2011]

Preamble

We, Representatives of our respective Parliaments from across the world, convening in Ottawa for the second Conference and Summit of the Inter-parliamentary Coalition for Combating Antisemitism, note and reaffirm the London Declaration on Combating Antisemitism as a template document for the fight against antisemitism.

We are concerned that, since the London Conference in February 2009, there continues to be a dramatic increase in recorded antisemitic hate crimes and attacks targeting Jewish persons and property, and Jewish religious, educational and communal institutions.

We remain alarmed by ongoing state-sanctioned genocidal antisemitism and related extremist ideologies. If antisemitism is the most enduring of hatreds, and genocide is the most horrific of crimes, then the convergence of the genocidal intent embodied in antisemitic ideology is the most toxic of combinations.

We are appalled by the resurgence of the classic anti-Jewish libels, including:

-       The Blood Libel (that Jews use the blood of children for ritual sacrifice)

-       The Jews as "Poisoners of the Wells" – responsible for all evils in the world

-       The myth of the "new Protocols of the Elders of Zion" – the tsarist forgery that proclaimed an international Jewish conspiracy bent on world domination – and accuses the Jews of controlling government, the economy, media and public institutions.

- ****The double entendre of denying the Holocaust – accusing the Jews of fabricating the Holocaust as a hoax – and the nazification of the Jew and the Jewish people.****

We are alarmed by the explosion of antisemitism and hate on the Internet, a medium crucial for the promotion and protection of freedom of expression, freedom of information, and the participation of civil society.

We are concerned over the failure of most OSCE participating states to fully implement provisions of the 2004 Berlin Declaration, including the commitment to:

"Collect and maintain reliable information and statistics about antisemitic crimes, and other hate crimes, committed within their territory, report such information periodically to the OSCE Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights (ODIHR), and make this information available to the public."

We are concerned by the reported incidents of antisemitism on campuses, such as acts of violence, verbal abuse, rank intolerance, and assaults on those committed to free inquiry, while undermining fundamental academic values.

We renew our call for national Governments, Parliaments, international institutions, political and civic leaders, NGOs, and civil society to affirm democratic and human values, build societies based on respect and citizenship and combat any manifestations of antisemitism and all forms of discrimination.

We reaffirm the EUMC – now Fundamental Rights Agency (FRA) – working definition of antisemitism, which sets forth that:

"Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

    Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
    Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective – such as, especially but not exclusively – the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy, or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group,**** or even for acts committed by non-Jews.****
    Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
    Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
    Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the State of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

****Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.****

****Applying double standards by requiring of it behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.****
    Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

****Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.****
    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

However, criticism of Israel similar to that levelled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.

Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong. ***But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.****

Members of Parliament meeting in Ottawa commit to:

    Calling on our Governments to uphold international commitments on combating antisemitism – such as the OSCE Berlin Principles – and to engage with the United Nations for that purpose. In the words of former U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, "It is […] rightly said that the United Nations emerged from the ashes of the Holocaust. And a Human Rights agenda that fails to address antisemitism denies its own history";
    Calling on Parliaments and Governments to adopt the EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism and anchor its enforcement in existing law;
    Encouraging countries throughout the world to establish mechanisms for reporting and monitoring on domestic and international antisemitism, along the lines of the "Combating Antisemitism Act of 2010" recently introduced in the United States Congress;
    Encouraging the leaders of all religious faiths – represented also at this Conference – to use all means possible to combat antisemitism and all forms of hatred and discrimination;
    Calling on the Parliamentary Forum of the Community of Democracies to make the combating of hatred and antisemitism a priority in their work;
    Calling on Governments and Parliamentarians to reaffirm and implement the Genocide Convention, recognising that where there is incitement to genocide, State parties have an obligation to act;
    Working with universities to encourage them to combat antisemitism with the same seriousness with which they confront other forms of hate. Specifically, universities should be invited to define antisemitism clearly, provide specific examples, and enforce conduct codes firmly, while ensuring compliance with freedom of speech and the principle of academic freedom. Universities should use the EUMC Working Definition of Antisemitism as a basis for education, training and orientation. Indeed, there should be zero tolerance for discrimination of any kind against anyone in the university community on the basis of race, gender, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation or political position;
    We encourage the European Union to promote civic education and open society in its European Neighbourhood Policy (ENP) and to link funding to democratic development and respect for Human Rights in ENP partner countries;
    Establishing an International Task Force of Internet specialists comprised of parliamentarians and experts to create common indicators to identify and monitor antisemitism and other manifestations of hate online and to develop policy recommendations for Governments and international frameworks to address these problems;
    Building on the African representation at this Conference, to develop increased working relationships with parliamentarians in Africa for the combating of racism and antisemitism;
    We urge the incoming OSCE Chair, Lithuania, to make implementation of these commitments a priority during 2011 and call for the reappointment of the Special Representatives to assist in this work.

http://www.antisem.org/archive/ottawa-protocol-on-combating-antisemitism/
plus
http://www.european-forum-on-antisemitism.org/working-definition-of-antisemitism/english/
http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/fs/2010/122352.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:27 PM

"Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong. ***But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.****
"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM

BTW Jim, Tiananmen Square was denounced, particularly by Western governments and media.[2] Criticism came from both Western and Eastern Europe, North America, Australia and some east Asian and Latin American countries. Notably, many Asian countries remained silent throughout the protests;

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:35 PM

"Sweden, Ireland, France, Canada, Australia,......"
Not a single quote of support, just the hypocritical silence of hypocritical politicians
United nations - "bigoted lies"
Human Rights Watch - silence
Amnesty International - silence
Haaretz articles - silence
Jews For Justice - silence
Indepenent reports - silence
Photographs of victims of phosphorus attacks om schools - first denials, then silence
Examples of dwindling support by nations once supporting Israel-silence.
And so ad infinitum
Tienanmen Square - first, a special case, then silence
I asked for actual examples of support for Israel - you have been unable to supply a single one
I think we're finished here, don't you?
"But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium..."
Nobody has ever done that, what we have done is recognised Israel as a religion driven terrorist state with expansionist aims and nuclear capability as the greatest threat to mankind today.
Those who refuse to recognise that while at the same time give blanket support to Israel's terrorist behaviour, and react to any criticism as "Antisemitic", are part of that threat.
You lied - you said I opposed the existence of the State of Israel - I asked for examples of this - you have provided none
You people seem incapable of constructing an honest sentence.
I have no idea of how old you are, but my family were supporting the rights of Jews and the Anti-Semites, in the North of England probably before you were born.
Members of my family did time for their actions against Mosely's Blackshirts on the streets of Liverpool and in the East End of London.
My father, when he saw what was happening in pre-war Europe, went off to Spain, where he was wounded and imprisoned - he returned to Merrie England to find himself with a police record as a "premature anti-fascist"
Many of those who fought with him were Jews
All of my family supported the setting up of the State of Israel - all of them were appalled when they witnessed it it fall into the hands of Zionist fascists.
Please feel free to stick your filthy accusations of "Anti Semitism as far up your lying hole as they will go.
If you have any defence for Sabra?Shatila, chemical and heavy artilary warfare against civilians, ghettoisation, state apartheid, the ethnic cleansing of nomads in order to create a a mono religious state.... feel free to offer that as well - so far, the only excuse has been denial.
Now piss of - the squalid gang of you.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:40 PM

So you can not find a single example of a democratic government that accuses Israel of any of those things.
That is because it is bollocks Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:51 PM

The accusation, Jim, is only in relation to your insisting on using the term Nazi, specifically mentioned by EUMC/FRA, as john-sunset-coast's full extract from proceedings of the Canadian Govt confirms, as an antisemitic usage. The fact that it might have been used long before that, in 1948 in a letter from Einstein et al much preceding that declaration, is surely little to the point at this time of day. You have previously agreed to desist from that practice, having been convinced of its objectionable effects, and of its having been thus specified. So why have you reverted to it, except for bloody-minded contrariness, and an apparent wish to appear antisemitic as there declared, so yah-sucks-boo to the whole squalid crew of us?

Sorry, Jim; but in this one particular it is you who are behaving 'squalidly'. Why not just drop these persistent offensive refs to "nazi", as I remind you yet again you agreed to do once before but have now gone back on? It is the only thing you are doing that even suggests antisemitism; but it isn't only 'squalid' us who think it mars the whole of your arguments by laying them open explicitly to that accusation.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,#
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:52 PM

"Now piss of - the squalid gang of you."

Is that from a traditional folk song?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 08:33 PM

Let it be clear: Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic, and saying so is wrong. ***But singling Israel out for selective condemnation and opprobrium – let alone denying its right to exist or seeking its destruction – is discriminatory and hateful, and not saying so is dishonest.****

Let it be clear: singling out Israel in a thread that is about Israel is not discriminatory, you twit. And it is not hateful either, unless unwarranted hateful words are used. Let's be even clearer. You are doing the typical Bibi thang of coming the victim, in order to divert attention away from the outrages perpetrated by the Israeli regime that it is perfectly justifiable to focus on and examine critically. The dishonesty is entirely in your court.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 12:16 AM

In case you did not read fully read the sources, you should know that that are not my my definition, but that of much of the first world community. And while it is true that this is a thread about Israel, it is also a thread about Palestine...and much more favorable to the latter, which is okay when done fairly.

I have been a a 'Catter for about 15 years. I currently have 'traced' six treads on Israel/Palestine. I found five others that have been here, and I remember a couple of them I cannot find. One was titled "Atrocities Other Than Israel," and it only took four posts for it to become largely about...Israel.

I defy you to find anywhere near twelve threads about any other country, from Somalia to Russia, or from North Korea to Iraq, at Mudcat. There are some threads about truly bad actors, far worse than Israel is purported to be, on the world stage...but for the most part they are discussed maybe for a few days and forgotten, although they are still ongoing in their actions.

At Mudcat, no other country, no matter their actions, has been said to have forfeited the right to exist...Israel has, and just by coincidence it is a Jewish homeland. No other nation has been dismissed as a theocracy (and virtually all Muslim countries are), but Israel is a Jewish theocracy, although it isn't. So don't tell me that criticism, here, of Israel is not often criticism of Jews. That no longer passes the smell test.

So, Steve, if I'm a 'twit,' as you have nothing relevant to say about me or the post, I plead guilty, and endorse the text of the 'twits' who have signed the Ottawa Protocol.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 12:59 AM

"unless unwarranted hateful words are used."·····

But that is exactly what Jim, in particular, is constantly doing. Count his uses of "Nazi" -- the very 'hateful word' in relation to Israel which JohnSunCo's cited declaration, not from any obscure quango but from the elected government of a leading western nation, devotes a separate paragraph to specifying as 'hateful'. And then poor old persecuted Jim gets all touchy & hoity and full-of-hate and denouncing us all as 'squalid' when called on it.

Who's the "twit"!?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:21 AM

... and it's no good his constantly ref'ing a declaration by Einstein & some other Jews from 1948 [repeat nineteen forty-eight, 66 years ago], in which they use the word in re a particular party in contention for power in new Israel. At that time, actual Nazism was so recent as to be a meaningful concept as a debating counter. Now it has just become an abusive boo-word, which is how Jim will constantly use it, in deliberate & flagrant contradiction of the Ottawa protocol's citation of the EUMC report.

The pity is that the policies of that party have ultimately gained the upper hand in Israel -- but that is a separate consideration which does not, by any means or in any way, warrant or justify Jim's constant iteration of this 'hateful' term.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:08 AM

"I defy you..."   Bloody hell, we appear to have a Keith wannabe on the sunset coast!

Michael. You point out that you are teetotal and I point out I have a humongous cock. Neither are relevant to the thread yet both are put forward for consideration by others.

Both represent the more objective statements on this subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:29 AM

"[repeat nineteen forty-eight, 66 years ago"
Exactly - within five years of the events he was referring to when he suggested the possibilities of Israel echoing those events - sixty odd years later a leading figure in Israeli security, one who was complicit in some of the atrocities, an Israeli patriot, would say that this was what Israel had become.
You have never had the bottle to actually address Irraeli atrocities Mike - you have only ever paid lip-service to them.
You are outraged at my/Einstein's/the Mossad man's comparison, yet you pass over Israel's continuing aggression with a vague nod of disapproval -otherwise, total silence
The only reference I can remember your ever making to Sabra/Shatila is one of your sneers at my bringing it up.
The only 'defence' of Israeli actions here is Keith's moronic claim that Israel must be OK because Western politicians have "warm and friendly relations" with her, as they do with the perpetrators of the Tienanmen Square massacre - everything else is silence or denial.
The rest of you have settled for outrage on my using a comparison that many other peple are making, including Jews.
The Jewish people deserve far more than this sort of hypocrisy.
How dare you bunch of turds implicate the Jewish people in the militarist, religion driven aggression that is taking place in the Middle East today
Another 1500 homes on the West Bank were announced yesterday in response to the Palestinian decision to unite the two disputing groups - that unification has been welcomed by the west as bringing about a possibility of peace - Israel's lethally spiteful opposition makes the possibility of peace even more remote.
Attributing Israel's actions to the Jewish people debase them in their entirety.
It is now common to hear Israel's aggressive expansionism described as fascist or apartheid or ethnic cleansing.
Einstein warned against this happening sixty odd years ago, today, Jewish intellectuals like Noam Chomski are talking in terms of "State Terrorism" and "political and economic fascism".
Throughout the world, politicians and human rights groups are openly describing what is happening in the Middle East as "ethnic cleansing" and "Apartheid".
Throughout the world Jews are organising themselves into groups in order to express their opposition to the behaviour of the Israeli regime - many are making the same comparisons.
The first time I ever heard the term "Jewish Fascism" was from a Jewish friend, we were in a relationship at the time and it was the first serious argument between us.
I remember it clearly because it was just after we had both come out of a Manchester cinema in tears, having sat though the horrors of the documentary epic 'Shoah'.
She expressed her misgivings of what was happening in Israel, even back then; I was horrified that someone coming from a family of holocaust survivors should make such a comparison and reacted badly.
You don't like Israel being compared to the Nazis - neither do I.
Do something about it other than whine about the comparison, or learn to live with it.
Do not attempt to implicate the Jewish people as a whole with the actions of Israels militaristic and political extremist thugs - it is as bad as blaming the Muslim people for the extremist behaviour of Islamist fanatics, which you all make a habit of doing anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:53 AM

Oh, for gods sake shut up about your bloody 'lipservice'. How do you purport to read my mind or judge my sincerity, you impertinent jumped-up self-opinionated little knowall smartarse. I think your fatuous lefty PC views are nothing but an infinite series of 'lipservice', for the matter of that.

I have objected explicitly to the expansionism, the destruction, the spiteful & deliberate taking away of people's livelihoods (& you go on persisting that those olive groves were nothing to fuss about although they were all that so many decent hardworking ordinary folk had to subsist on & keep their children)... I have taken it as read that I will obviously regard Sabra-Shatila as outrageously disgusting. If I haven't said so before, it's because I haven't considered it even needed saying. So, there you are. I've said it now. I denounce it. I doubledoubledouble denounce it. In spades. Happy now? I have never objected to the use of 'apartheid', or even 'fascist', or 'ethnic cleansing'. But, no, I don't like Nazi. "Neither do I," you assert selfrighteously. Then stop saying it, you perverse contrary idiot, and I'll stop calling you out on it.

And what, precisely, do you suggest that I "do about it" from here, other than go on denouncing it and emphasise that the whole boiling of stinking Israel is the greatest disappointment of my entire life? Go out there & kick Netanyahu in the bollocks? Or what, fatgob!

And you cannot deny that you did once promise to desist from "Nazi"-ing. & have gone back on, and broken, that promise. People who break promises are not generally trusted — or particularly highly regarded, you know...

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:08 AM

Yah, yah, yah - sucks to you too!!
Hypocritical prick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:30 AM

No reply required. You have perfectly adequately "placed" yourself, Mr Carroll.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:14 AM

As you point out, I once refrained from expressing my belief that the behaviour of Israel was an echo of that of their persecutors - I pointed out at the time that I would do so out of respect for your feelings, not because I had ceased to believe the validity of the comparison - your out-of-the-closet, hate filled rantings have made my self-censorship unnecessary, as far as I am concerned.
Rant away - it suits you and your kind
Jim Cattoll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:16 AM

I'm sure you will make much of my typo - your kind always do
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:24 AM

Will you get into your stupid mind-made-up thick idiotic head ~~ they are NOT "hate-filled": they are FEAR-filled.   Islamism scares me to death. Terrifies me. If it doesn't you too after all that has happened these last 15 years, that is because you are a doctrinaire self-blinding head·in·sand bloody fool.

AINTOS -
You'll learn

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:27 AM

... and I've never been in any bloody closet regarding the matter, you offensive little turd. I don't DO bloody closets. You know that: but you're the one who is the hypocrite.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:36 AM

"Islamism scares me to death."
All militant religion scares me to death - especially those with nuclear capability.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:46 AM

Islamism scares me to death. Terrifies me.

Have you considered therapy for your phobia? It could help, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:52 AM

Israel, tho maybe nuclear-capable, is not a religious state, even if it was established by Jews as somewhere for other Jews to go. It was an ethnic, not a religious, movement that established the kibbutz system on which the achievement of statehood was based. Free love applied in the kibbutzim, not Talmudic law. Have you read Koestler's 'Thieves In The Night'? For all its faults, it's a book worth reading. And Talmudic or rabbinic influence haven't much political clout there: the Sabbath laws are a bit of a pain in the arse to most people, but apart from no buses running they don't have much effect on anyone who doesn't want to be affected.

Now, can you honestly say that Islamic teachings have no political or forensic influence in Yemen, Saudi, Brunei, N Nigeria, Malaysia, Sudan, Somalia (cont p 94)?

For gods sake grow up, Jim & stop being so silly, and relying on such leaky at every orifice debating points. It's beneath you.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:57 AM

Couldn't Greg; because I don't have any "phobia", I have a rationally-based fear of the inevitable consequences of failing to confront a manifest peril. If you can't see it, then

AINTOS*

you'll learn


*As I Never Tire Of Saying

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:11 AM

Well, ~M~, I blame it on the Commies a.k.a. "The Red Menace".

Or maybe "The Yellow Peril".

They used to be the stock bogey-men that scared the shit out of a certain type of folk, but they've been falling down on the job of late.

Someone had to fill that void for those who simply can't be happy without some apocolyptic shibboleth to be constantly in terror of. Hence "The Muslim Peril" and its attendant psychopathology.

In time, they'll be replaced by another phantasm, which I'm sure will scare the crap out of you just as well.

Enjoy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:12 AM

"Now, can you honestly say that Islamic teachings have no political or forensic influence in Yemen, Saudi, Brunei, N Nigeria, Malaysia, Sudan, Somalia (cont p 94)?"
Of course they have, just as Christian teaching has an effect in Ireland, Spain, France, Italy - and everywhere that calls itself a Christian/Catholic country - and that effect can be just as align as Muslim extremism when it as allowed to be.
It is disingenuous to claim Israel is not a religious state - in theory maybe, but the Zionist right have made religion a major feature in its development.
In the end, religion is immaterial anyway - the setting up of a mono-religious/cultural state in the manner that is taking place is the threat, and would be, no matter what religion was involved.
Israel's role is one of an expansionist aggressor - nuclear capability is the icing on the cake.
If I am being "silly", you are being evasive.
A nuclear power behaving as Israel is just as, if not far more dangerous as Islamism.
The Muslim communities in Britain have more than proved they are capable of avoiding the extremes of their religion, otherwise the streets would have been awash with Powell's "Rivers of Blood" long before now.
These tried and trusted law-abiding people are the ones you would throw back into the arms of the Islamic extremists, making them bitter and resentful enemies (not without reason) rather than the friends and good citizens they have proven to be - all to feed your own personal bigotry.
I wonder what the final count would have been if those fleeing the rise of Nazism in Germany had been given the same welcome you are offering Muslims
Doesn't bear thinking about - so you obviously haven't bothered.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 10:57 AM

Israel's role is one of an expansionist aggressor

It is not very good at it then!
It started tiny and is still tiny.
You should look at a map and ignore the propaganda Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 11:45 AM

"It started tiny and is still tiny."
Go look at the maps - spreading like cholera
You are the only person dishing out propaganda - denial of facts, all your own work
Tienanmen Square lovers wouldn't trade with Israel - that really has made my week!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:32 PM

Many governments castigated China over Tiananmen, but no decent ones accuse Israel of war crimes.

Israel is still a tiny sliver of land surrounded by vast Arab lands, and has had to fight them off repeatedly, so "aggressive" and "expansionist" are ludicrous lies.

You have to make shit up if you want to criticise them, and you always want to.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:20 PM

"unless unwarranted hateful words are used."·····

But that is exactly what Jim, in particular, is constantly doing. Count his uses of "Nazi" -- the very 'hateful word' in relation to Israel which JohnSunCo's cited declaration, not from any obscure quango but from the elected government of a leading western nation, devotes a separate paragraph to specifying as 'hateful'. And then poor old persecuted Jim gets all touchy & hoity and full-of-hate and denouncing us all as 'squalid' when called on it.

Who's the "twit"!?

You are, for deliberately and mischievously conflating "hateful" with "antisemitic". You have committed a grievous logical error by so doing. For the record, I do no such thing: I've distanced myself from Jim's occasional forms of words (which can be a bit too passionate for me, though not "hateful", in my view) whilst clearly discerning that they do not amount to antisemitism. Remove the fog of Islamophobia from before your eyes and you'll discern the same thing. Only you probably don't really want to, do you?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:43 PM

In case you did not read fully read the sources, you should know that that are not my my definition, but that of much of the first world community. And while it is true that this is a thread about Israel, it is also a thread about Palestine...and much more favorable to the latter, which is okay when done fairly.

I have been a a 'Catter for about 15 years. I currently have 'traced' six treads on Israel/Palestine. I found five others that have been here, and I remember a couple of them I cannot find. One was titled "Atrocities Other Than Israel," and it only took four posts for it to become largely about...Israel.

I defy you to find anywhere near twelve threads about any other country, from Somalia to Russia, or from North Korea to Iraq, at Mudcat. There are some threads about truly bad actors, far worse than Israel is purported to be, on the world stage...but for the most part they are discussed maybe for a few days and forgotten, although they are still ongoing in their actions.

At Mudcat, no other country, no matter their actions, has been said to have forfeited the right to exist...Israel has, and just by coincidence it is a Jewish homeland. No other nation has been dismissed as a theocracy (and virtually all Muslim countries are), but Israel is a Jewish theocracy, although it isn't. So don't tell me that criticism, here, of Israel is not often criticism of Jews. That no longer passes the smell test.

So, Steve, if I'm a 'twit,' as you have nothing relevant to say about me or the post, I plead guilty, and endorse the text of the 'twits' who have signed the Ottawa Protocol.

Keith-like indeed, as Musket says. I have always had plenty of substance to say on this topic, but, as I've told Keith, no-one sets my agenda on a free-for-all forum. Don't be too disappointed if I have "nothing relevant to say about you or the post". I'm not here to feed your ego, thanks. You bemoan the criticism that Israel gets here. Well, in terms of what I perceive to be outrageous human rights abuses, I could (but won't) bemoan the amount of defence Israel gets here. When you consider that us folkies tend, in general, to empathise with common humanity a bit more than, say, the average Tory or Republican, for whom self-interest is the keynote, it's almost surprising that Israel gets any sympathy at all. But, you see, the reason that this issue inflames passions, and the reason why Israel seems to you to get all the flak, is that the actions of bellicose Israeli regime after regime down the decades have actually been, and still are, the greatest threat to world peace that exists today. Israel worries the yanks far more than "Islamist terrorists" do (just look at the money they throw at that tiny nation), and the two are hardly unconnected in terms of cause and effect, but they can't do a thing about it because of the pro-Israel lobby and the US media who feed the people precisely half the story of what goes on in the Middle East. You are are clearly a victim of that partiality. Willing, by the sound of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 04:50 PM

Many governments castigated China over Tiananmen, but no decent ones accuse Israel of war crimes.

That does not mean that "war crimes" (or, better put, crimes against humanity) don't happen. It simply means that powerful and rather undemocratic pro-Israel lobbies, especially in the US (and it rubs off on every UK prime minister I can think of) make it impossible for governments to speak out. It's simple really. Any senator, congressman or US president who speaks against Israel is toast. It's quite noticeable that the yanks on this forum are loath to mention AIPAC by name (or acronym). Can you remember an example? Open your eyes, Keith.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:32 PM

Finally Awake: From Pro Palestinian Activist To Staunch Israel Supporter

Posted by: Linda Todd June 1, 2014        

"While in Israel, I made a point of observing as many aspects of life as I could. With so much talk of "apartheid", I purposely looked for signs of this, and instead, noticed how casually people mixed together as they went about their daily lives.

My friends showed me their Israel – no hype, no propaganda, just real life.

I will never be the same.

Now I have to speak truth against the lies I know are being told. I have seen two sides, Gaza and Israel, and have no choice but to share my stories and observations in the hopes of waking others up who have believed the lies just as I did.

I am so happy and grateful to finally be awake!"

Israellycool

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 05:35 PM

I don't deny many of your animadversions against Israel. Steve. They really are a grave disappointment to my generation of Jews. That bellicose, expansionist, bullying, spiteful regime is not what we dedicated all that youthful energy to create.

But if you think that this pertinacious use of "Nazi" on Jim's part is not 'hateful' or 'antisemitic', don't attack me. He is asking for such denunciations by persisting in using this term while fully aware of its declared status as such, as a "special-mention" example, in the Ottawa Protocol republication of the 2005 EUMC Report. So get off my back, please, & take the matter up with the Government of the Dominion of Canada.

Thank you

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 07:33 PM

Anecdotal "evidence" isn't, Boo.

My friends showed me their Israel

Yup - the Israel they WANTED her to see, and she WANTED to find.

Now, let's try for an unbiased observer......

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:04 PM

But if you think that this pertinacious use of "Nazi" on Jim's part is not 'hateful' or 'antisemitic', don't attack me. He is asking for such denunciations

No he is not. I don't give a flying fart if you call it hateful. I don't, as it happens. I call it rather too passionate a form of words for my taste and you won't catch me calling Israelis "Nazis" (not because I'm trying to be politically correct, rather that I don't think it), but hateful it isn't, in my book. In my book. But antisemitic it certainly is not. Antisemitism is an attack on Jewish people because they are Jewish people. That is simply not happening in this thread. If you really want to put that construction on it, then you'd better start examining your own prejudices. Start to be a little more honest about this. Perhaps view it from from a little more distance than you are currently doing. If you think Jim is a mortal threat to Judaism, then I'm severely wrong in thinking I've heard the last cuckoo this spring.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:09 PM

Finally Awake: From Pro Palestinian Activist To Staunch Israel Supporter

Posted by: Linda Todd June 1, 2014      

"While in Israel, I made a point of observing as many aspects of life as I could. With so much talk of "apartheid", I purposely looked for signs of this, and instead, noticed how casually people mixed together as they went about their daily lives.

My friends showed me their Israel – no hype, no propaganda, just real life.

I will never be the same.

Now I have to speak truth against the lies I know are being told. I have seen two sides, Gaza and Israel, and have no choice but to share my stories and observations in the hopes of waking others up who have believed the lies just as I did.

I am so happy and grateful to finally be awake!"

Israellycool

Why, yet another bobad-minnow post that does a big quote from somewhere-or-other but which does not contain the slightest input from yer man (or woman - how would I know...) himself. Typical. Just for variety, minnow, go on now, give us one of your Islamophobic one-liners.

Lazy git.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:28 PM

About Linda Todd
A Canadian girl with a decidedly unCanadian experience, Linda is a seeker of truth and enlightenment. Formerly married to a Palestinian journalist from Gaza, she lived there and told their story well… until she visited Israel and confirmed her suspicion that she had been exposed to way too much propaganda. As Linda continues to seek truth and enlightenment, she now tells a very different story….one that shows Israel for who she really is – a place of warmth and hospitality….and freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:44 PM

Sure. And where did you copy and paste that from?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 08:52 PM

I don't normally bother with such things, but just thought I'd mention that Linda Todd, as anyone can read in her blogs, is a blatant propagandist for the Israeli regime. Nowt wrong with that, one supposes, except that the boobad-minnow refrained from mentioning that his source is, er, slightly less than unbiased, to put it mildly. Do google her, chaps and chapesses, and find out for yourself what a useless bloody fraud bobad truly is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 09:35 PM

Frederik Willem de Klerk, former President of South Africa (1989-1994) and Nobel Peace Prize laureate in 1993: "It is unfair to call Israel an Apartheid state".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u-NeH0FHq0

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:10 AM

'I don't give a flying fart if you call it "hateful"'
.,,.
Oh, for crying out loud, stop being so disingenuous and aggressive, Steve. Why should I, or anyone, give a flying unowot either what the gr8 Mr S Shaw gives? Who Shaw? What his authority in the matter? I take my authority in the matter from those who know a fair sight better than jumped-up self-opinionated him: ie the Canadian Government citing the EUMC, the professionals appointed by the authority of the nations of Europe to judge of the question.

Now, Jim knows all this, thank you v much just the same Mr S; and if he nevertheless goes on incessantly bleating "Nazi", then he knows he is deliberately falling foul of these declarations and judgements, and thus incurring the terrible risk of being denounced by me as 'antisemitic'; which is what he chooses to go on doing & being, so obviously he can live with it.

Do you think he welcomes the long proboscis of Mr Shaw S being poked in for his defence because he must be too helpless to look after himself? How patronising. He doesn't seem to be unduly fazed and lives with it, so what put-in of yours then, eh, Mr Prodnose Shaw?

So how about you just butt out!

Best regards as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 03:36 AM

It simply means that powerful and rather undemocratic pro-Israel lobbies, especially in the US (and it rubs off on every UK prime minister I can think of) make it impossible for governments to speak out.

That does not stand up Steve.
Countries like Ireland, Sweden, France, Australia, Canada, etc. do speak out against US policy all the time.
If they really believed Israel guilty of heinous crimes they would say so and act accordingly.
The FACT is they do not.

Well, in terms of what I perceive to be outrageous human rights abuses, I could (but won't) bemoan the amount of defence Israel gets here

That ignores the FACT that a huge number of countries with a far worse record of human rights abuse are NEVER criticised by all you Israel bashers.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM

"he nevertheless goes on incessantly bleating "Nazi",
Until you deal with the facts that others, including Jews, are saying the same thing and have done so since the birth of Israel, you are dishonestly avoiding the fact that there is some validity in the accusation - you have added dishonest along with hypocrisy to your CV.
You claim to have responded to all points put to you - do you consider the Mossad man, Noam Chomski, Eisenstein and all the Jews who signed his letter "Antisemites" for making the same comparisons?   
"If they really believed Israel guilty of heinous crimes they would say so and act accordingly."
Ho hum
China committed "heinous crimes" - these countries have "warm friendly relations with her.
CONSERVATIVES RELATIONS WITH CHINA
You have claimed "support for Israel - there is none anywhere - you invented it.
You have yet to even mention the mountain of criticism by these nations on Israel's behaviour - before you claim there is none, you have been given it.
It doesn't matter anyway - if Britain can trade with the Assad family and consider it a friend and close ally for as long as it did, knowing full well the atrocities and murders taking place there, it will trad with any murderous, human tights abusing regime.
2009
Your defence of Israel has now entered the realms of high farce
NO NATION HAS EVER OPENLY SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ATROCITIES OR WAR CRIMES AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED - WHERE HAVE THEY
SILENCE FROM POLITICIANS IS NOT SUPPORT OR EVIDENCE OF INNOCENCE,
Human rights groups throughout the world have condemned Israel as a possible war criminal.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:20 AM

To prove the point, those countries DO criticise Israel over its settlers.
If Israel was guilty of all those heinous crimes, the settlers would not merit a mention.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:37 AM

So go on bleating it then, Jim; and I shall go on indicating what it proves you, in the judgment of at least two competent authorities appointed to judge specifically on this very question, the Government of the Dominion of Canada and the EUMC, to be.

If you go on saying "Nazi" then you are, in their terms, 'antisemitic'. So are all & any of these celebs & notables you adduce if they do so, Jewish or not. It is perfectly possible to be against Israel in its present form without resorting to such officially-designated antisemitic name-calling ~~ I am and I don't. If you don't want to be thought so, stop doing it. If you won't stop, then you are being, little as you like the idea, demonstrably and manifestly, an antisemite. So stop doing it, or live with the designation; and please do not trouble yourself to tell me again that I mustn't 'dare' to call you so.

Up to you...

Best regards as ever

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 04:47 AM

NO NATION HAS EVER OPENLY SUPPORTED ISRAEL'S ATROCITIES OR WAR CRIMES AS YOU HAVE CLAIMED - WHERE HAVE THEY
SILENCE FROM POLITICIANS IS NOT SUPPORT OR EVIDENCE OF INNOCENCE,

You are right.
They have not even criticised it as they have China's internal repression.
That is because there are no atrocities or war crimes to either support or condemn Jim.
They do criticise over the settlers, which would be trivial in comparison if such things were true.

It is all lies and propaganda for the consumption of gullible dupes like you.
Governments know better.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:09 AM

From this debate you can see how Israel frustrates and embarrasses Western governments and especially educated reasonable people therein.

Don't forget, the facile lazy memes that the likes of Keith, Michael , Poo Bad etc are coming out with are nothing to the propaganda intelligent people with polarised views can manage.

I too have spent time in Israel. I too see happy smiling faces on the beach. But I saw hypocrisy by the, to be fair, scared members of the general public and a deep ingrained belief that Palestinians shouldn't be given a single inch. I saw men with goldilocks hairstyles nodding and telling people to bulldozer Arab settlements. (My business interests took me to such places sadly) and I saw rational people having to observe their Sabbath or face victimisation and worse.

That was mid ' 90s. I see nothing to suggest they are any further in trying to live with neighbours and I see no attempt to comply with UN resolutions we demand they follow.

That's we. Western governments who use resolutions such as this to rein in rogue states. In case you weren't aware, there are some EU restrictions on selling military and espionage equipment to Israel as we see it as a rogue state.

Your move.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:31 AM

Britain's relations with Israel are political and business based
Examples

"Arrest warrants[edit]
When he flew to England in 2005, retired Israeli general Doron Almog narrowly escaped arrest for war crimes after a UK Judge had issued a warrant in a British court, on the basis of the principle of universal jurisdiction. Almog was tipped off about the arrest and stayed on the plane until its return flight to Israel after 2 hours.[22] It was later revealed that the police failed to board the plane because they were denied permission by El Al, Israel's national airline, and feared an armed confrontation and the "international impact of a potentially armed police operation at an airport".[23]

In December 2009, an arrest warrant was issued for then leader of the opposition Tzipi Livni due to alleged war crimes committed during the 2008-09 Gaza War, when Livni was foreign minister.[24] These incidents strained relations between Israel and the United Kingdom, and Israel urged the UK to rethink its policies to prevent a further breakdown.[25] A few months earlier, former military chief Moshe Yaalon had called off a visit to Britain due to similar concerns.[26] Israeli defense minister Ehud Barak was also threatened with arrest, but the courts ruled that as a sitting minister he enjoyed diplomatic immunity.[27] British Foreign Secretary David Miliband announced that Britain would no longer tolerate legal harassment of Israeli officials in this fashion and arrest threats against visitors of Livni's stature would not happen again. To achieve this, British law would be reformed.[28] Israel's deputy foreign minister Danny Ayalon said that the risk of arrest was harming bilateral relations[29] but the law was not changed as promised. Israel halted the "special strategic dialogue" with Britain in protest.[30]

Legislation passed in 2011 under David Cameron's Conservative government altered the law, and required that the Director of Public Prosecutions give his consent to any private prosecution for war crimes under universal jurisdiction, to prevent politically motivated cases and to ensure that there was solid evidence. Justice Secretary Kenneth Clark explained that "the balance is struck between ensuring those who are accused of such heinous crimes do not escape justice and that universal jurisdiction cases are only proceeded with on the basis of solid evidence."[31] Livni arrived in the UK later that year in what was perceived to be a test case of the new legislation. The Crown Prosecution Service later revealed that it had received an application for an arrest warrant but no conclusion had been reached on whether there was sufficient evidence to support conviction. Foreign secretary William Hague then declared that Livni was on a "special mission," which granted her immunity from prosecution.[32] The "special mission" status was effective in protecting Livni in this case.[33]"
"It is all lies and propaganda "
Sure it is
"Governments know better."
Oh - for **** sake - the same governments who carried out an illegal war and gave us decades of body bags from Iraq and Afghanistan
This quote is classic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Jun 14 - 05:55 AM

What are my 'facile, lazy memes', please, Ian? I say nothing in excuse of Israel's entirely unacceptable bullying behaviour. My sole contribution has been objection, shared with the committee appointed by the Government of the Dominion of Canada et al, to the inappropriate & facile & peculiarly in context offensive use of the epithet "Nazi" in relation to Israel.

~M~

Always have to look up yet again to remind myself what this manufactured trendy pretentious cant word 'meme' is supposed to mean. Having done so, I am never much the wiser. Still, go on using it if you think it makes you sound sorta philosophical & in choon wiv da zeitgeist 'n' that innit