The Enigma of Nic Jones

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ian G
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 10:57 AM

Yes Dave, I spotted the Bandoggs fragment too, and they did do just the one great LP. They only got together because they were all on the same label [Leader and Trailer] and were sitting around with no gigs !
So far as Big Al's comments are concerned my reference to Carthy was in respect of his generosity of spirit and humility, not his repertoire, style or 'deconstruction' of anything. It's also 15 years since he recorded Heartbreak Hotel !! Give the guy a break !
I'm puzzled by the 'apothegm' bit, there's a lot of things I don't understand for sure, but I think after 40+ years of performing and listening I am starting to 'get' English folk music a bit. Do you mean 'apotheosis' ? If so, I agree and MC would, too.
Al, I agree with you on Nic's fiddle playing, he had a lovely touch. I don't know what you're trying to say with the other stuff.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:06 AM

Well....you say apotheosis, I say halitosis, lets call the whole thing off. Not the place for an undignified squabble. Lets both be glad that Nic is up and strutting his stuff again.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 11:10 AM

Jim Martin,

Thanks so much for the link

I'm watching now with much interest & enjoyment

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Vic Smith
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 12:07 PM

Al Whittle wrote:-
"The folk music of England is the music of the English people - what ever it is, it sounds more like The Beatles than Nic or Martin"

Louis Carroll wrote in Alice Through The Looking Glass:-
"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ian G
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 12:37 PM

Al, I'm delighted Nic is singing again. I hope Joe resists or is able to resist a day job as well because he sounds too good to be an occasional player like what I am these days.
In respect of the Beatles it was George Harrison's playing that inspired me to pick up a guitar in the first place. I wept gently when he passed on.
Also, your breath may stink but I think your rendition of 'Reinstalling Windows' is terrific !
Life's too short for squabbling, who would be your 15 performers from those days to have a TV retrospective ? [Could be a new thread]
I'm off to my music room [shed] to try playing 'Claudy Banks' very slowly, thanks for that one ! IG

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:06 PM

Not gonna squabble.

You people have no answer to the fact that most English folk can't stand what you call English folk music. You rant at and abuse anyone who points this rather sad fact out.

Martin Carthy and Nic Jones are great artists. Great artists deserve respect and this isn't the place. I doubt if there is a place where the debate can take place. Yhe people involved are so partisan.

Life is full of strange contradictions. And truth is hard to pin down.

For example Jean Paul Sartre said that the French people were at their most free under the rule of the gestapo - because he said, every choice was made in the presence of death.....that's what he believed and he wrote The Age of Reason trilogy of novels with those beliefs in his mind. Works of genius...some believe.

Great art can be pouduced using ideas that I don't agree with. Look at the Renaissance, all those religious painters - you can appreciate their beauty without being a Christian.

Similarly I think Nic and martind are brilliant - but I don't think its folk music.

No need to squabble - but its my belief. Doesn't have to be yours.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ian G
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 04:27 PM

Wasn't aware I'd ranted at or abused anyone, Al. Simply saying MC is a good bloke. From what close mutual friends have told me Nic is too. Let's leave it there.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:02 PM

Not accusing you of that Ian. Its just the sort of thing that happens and I think it would be unbecoming, for it to happen here, when we are all making a thread about someone that we're all glad to see back on the scene.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 06:22 PM

Al, take more water with it :-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Eldergirl
Date: 29 Sep 13 - 08:07 PM

What struck me about the programme was, that although Nic was a superb instrumentalist, he was - and still is - more concerned about getting the song across, rather than show-offy arrangements, etc. His version of Little Musgrave trumps all other variants, in my book, and demonstrates what I mean; the guitar just drives along underneath, like a river carrying a barge laden with cargo. More power to him. Great to see him back. And backed by Joe and Belinda, there's teamwork for you.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: treewind
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:41 AM

"English folk can't stand what you call English folk music"
I don't want another "what is folk?" argument any more that you do, but I'm not entirely sure that, even in an ideal world, the folk music of a country has be universally popular in that country, and for every definition of "folk" that I've ever heard or read, I can think of lots of people of don't like THAT sort of "folk" music.

"What struck me about the programme was, that although Nic was a superb instrumentalist, he was - and still is - more concerned about getting the song across, rather than show-offy arrangements, etc."

Yes, he said he had to get the guitar part "automatic" so he didn't have to think about that and could concentrate on the song. His playing wasn't meant to sound flashy: as described several times in the program, it was only when another guitarist tried to copy what he did that they discovered it wasn't as easy Nic made it sound.

I heard somewhere that Nic pointed out to another guitarist asking him for advice, that he kept it simple during the verses of a song; it was only between verses that the really tricky stuff came out. Not only because it's easier to concentrate on it when you're not singing at the same time, but more importantly because you don't want to distract from the words.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 06:26 AM

The only thing that I didn't quite get about this program was the "Enigma" bit. It was about a brave man who has overcome extreme adversity with the help and support of his family and friends. There were tragedy and triumph involved - but nothing very enigmatic as far as I could see - did I miss something?

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Noreen
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 09:33 AM

Shimrod, I agree- I don't see the reason for the title at all.

But otherwise, a lovely programme, great to see all the old faces with their memories, adn Nic looking so happy.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: G-Force
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 10:14 AM

I suppose the 'enigma' is that although he's been off the scene for ages he remains popular and 'legendary'. The media do love a legend.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:17 AM

I always remember playing Canadeeio in my car whilst waiting at a level crossing - a long wait, when a BMW with windows wound down pulled up beside me out of which the usual reggae at deafening volume came. I turned mine up (!!) and suddenly the reggae stopped, the driver called out "what's that you're playin man?". I told him and showed him the CD cover, and he said "that guitar playing is fantastic, must get the CD"!

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:34 AM

I don't know about enigma. But one thing that fascinates me is how these singers who have been absent from the folkscene for many years seem to inspire young talented disciples.

I'm thinking of young James Findlay, who seems to live and breathe the spirit of Nic Jones.

Sunjay Brayne, who never saw gerry Lockran or Roger Brooks perform - but seems to have an encylcopaedic knowlege of their works.

And did anyone see that programme made about a year before Davy Graham died - all these rock stars, many of whom I'd never heard of came out of the woodwork paying tribute.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 11:41 AM

BBC 4 - The Enigma of Nic Jones - BBC4 is available on BBC iPlayer. If overseas you need to use ExpatShield or StrongVPN - to set up a UK IP address. Then you can download this programme (without DRM) using get_iplayer

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03bsrrb/The_Enigma_of_Nic_Jones_Return_of_Britains_Lost_Folk_Hero/

Note that is you download this from the iPlayer page above this will be with DRM and the file will expire in 30 days.

Use get_player instead. Paste this link into the Quick URL field, and then click on Record.

====

Radio 4 FM - The Enigma of Nic Jones. Available on iPlayer. Can be listened to overseas and recorded using Audacity (with Stereo Mix) *without* ExpatShield etc. at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b037t1rk

Or it can be downloaded from overseas using get_iplayer and this link in the Quick URL field and then clicking on Record

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b037t1rk/In_Search_of_Nic_Jones

====

get_iplayer can be downloaded for free from:

http://www.infradead.org/get_iplayer/html/get_iplayer.html

The web PVM version is good - this will download and install all necessary packages (PC only):

http://www.infradead.org/get_iplayer_win/get_iplayer_setup_latest.exe

Refresh the cache every time before downloading anything.

====

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:27 PM

Tunesmith comments that he doesn't remember Nic "bringing the house down". My recollection is that very few of the performers at the time brought the house down. The attitude was very respectful of the music and the performers, and we were a bit suspicious of those who played to the gallery and seemed to put themselves above the music. Even the outstanding performers, of whom Nic was undoubtedly one, were received warmly and enthusiastically, but "bringing the house down" was not behaviour which was welcome. Looking back I suspect we took it, and ourselves, all a bit too seriously.

Having just caught up with the programme on iPlayer, I was struck by the quality of the performance. I've heard bits of his comeback performances on the radio, and my reaction had been that while it was lovely that he was back on stage, and the emotional impact of the event went without saying, considered objectively his singing wasn't up to much. Having now seen that performance, my opinion is completely reversed - he still has that wonderful sense of timing and delivery that made his singing so distinctive. Masterful.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Smedley
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:47 PM

It was the best music documentary I've seen on TV for years.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 02:56 PM

I'll second that.

Dave H

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Edthefolkie
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 04:11 PM

I'll third that, I emailed Proudfoot Films to say thanks.

I'd also second Ian G about how great it's be to have more stories in a similar vein. Swarb's is equally inspiring but would definitely have to be shown after the watershed.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 06:36 PM

Agree it was a wonderful doc. Are you all aware that it was producer Michael Proudfoot who also made that excellent series of hour-long profiles on Eliza Carthy, Kathryn Tickell, Seth Lakeman and Kate Rusby a few years ago that still pop up on Sky from time to time? I've read elsewhere that the Nic film was virtually a labour of love, made on a tiny budget with most of the people working on it for free. I suppose that's the reality if you aren't making programmes about Celebs, but it really shouldn't be so. We should all let the BBC know how much this one was appreciated, so they know, then maybe they'll commission a few more.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: vectis
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:20 AM

Andrez try here for a download

expat-shield.en.softonic.com

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 06:49 AM

I can confirm that 'The Enigma of Nic Jones' was, most definitely, a labour of love.
                                                   Nigel Paterson.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 05:17 PM

As I think I said earlier - Brilliant stuff. Maybe I said it elsewhere? Never mind - It was anyway, on all fronts I think.

BTW - One of the most useful and interesting threads I have seen in a long time. Thanks Ralphie.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Andrez
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 07:00 PM

Yay, OK thanks for the info Vectis and info re some other options from Guest, I think, too. Will play around with this info and see how it goes. Looking forward to seeing what everyone else has been talking about re Nic.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,KP
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:40 AM

I was privileged to have seen Nic in his prime in 1980, in a packed folk club in Cambridge. He couldn't 'bring the house down' because the walls were too well propped up by all the people jammed in to see him! Otherwise I remember his reception as being pretty ecstatic...

The programme brought tears to my eyes on several occasions, but the best moment was listening to him singing with his son and how well their voices blended.

The other thing that was really interesting was watching and listening to all the talented young musicians playing his stuff. With all of them (even a certain Mr Simpson) you got the impression 'wow that's difficult' whereas listening to Nic in his prime you just got that total sense of ease about his playing - it was only when you tried to work out or emulate him that you realised how difficult it was/is.

Incidentally, I've never really sorted out what he is doing on the accompaniment of Annachie Gordon - can't even work out the tuning! Anyone got any insight?

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 04:59 AM

Finally caught up with my recording of this programme.
I thought it was one of the best music related programmes I've ever seen.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ronald
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 06:33 AM

Of course most people who know Nic watched the programme, but it would be interesting to know what people who had never heard about him thought of it.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 11:44 AM

As a result of the film, 'Penguin Eggs' looks like it's heading for the folk charts again (I have this information from two, unimpeachable sources!)

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:25 AM

I dug out my Penguin Eggs CD only to find the case was empty, bugger, no idea where it's gone, I'll have to buy it again.

Dave H

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 03:05 PM

As far as I can tell, no way to watch in the US....bummer!

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:27 PM

Nigel .. ."heading for the folk charts"? It depends which folk charts you're referring to, but if you check Amazon Uk out you will find that it's number 2 (as it has been for a while now) in their folk charts, but in terms of _overall_ CD sales it is currently today at number 34. (Yesterday it was at 24, so it's beginning to slip a little now). Not bad :-)

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 04:53 PM

annachie gordon is cgcgcd

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 08:04 PM

I wonder if you put a fourth string on the 6th whether it would stay in tune.

Buy a variax and amp and have no further pronlems.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 09:36 PM

Re charts. according to a number of Facebook postings at the time, on Saturday the day after the broadcast Penguin Eggs briefly reached No.4 on Amazon's overall music chart!! Somebody said that Amazon account for more than half of all UK CD sales, so that's an actual hit record. Overnight, after more than 30 years! I hope Nic gets royalties.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:12 AM

It's been in Amazon's charts for 20 days according to their page today and is currently at number 38 (so it's now dropping gently). But it's still ahead of "On Air - Live at the BBC Volume 2" by the Beatles.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 10:08 AM

Given that The Beatles "On Air" isn't released until November 11th, it's not entirely surprising that sales are a little slow.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 10:17 AM

Talking of The Beatles, I bet a hundred years from now, Nic's work will be revered more than The Beatles!

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Anne Lister
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 05:37 PM

I finally caught up with the programme last night and have had a huge lump in my throat ever since. Profoundly moved at the memories (I will of course always remember the evening we first met at which he asked for a recording of "Icarus", as well as the subsequent meetings and the devastating news of the car crash at the Perform gathering in Manchester) and at the younger generation carrying it forward. Well done to all concerned - and Nigel, if you're reading this, you had me in tears.
As to "bringing the house down" - my memory is that he was, quite simply, regarded as one of the very best. In fact, that button badge saying he was god made me laugh out loud - pretty close!

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,surreysinger sans cookie
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 08:09 PM

Guest Ed - no doubt those will be Amazon pre-sales then?

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:09 AM

Of course, what needs to happen is that a DVD should be released with "extras" to make it "a must" for anyone who has already recorded the Tv programme.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 05:11 AM

Anne, I've sent you a PM.
                                     Nigel xx

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 07:52 AM

"I've sent you a PM"

What a bizarre thing, announcing to the world that you've sent somebody a personal message but there we go...

For what it's worth, there will be a DVD. Released on November 11th. Click here for details.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 07:59 AM

My apologies for my stupidity. Click HERE

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Silas
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 08:38 AM

Hi Ed
It's not all that odd sending a message to say you have sent a PM - mudcat does not flag PM's particularly well unless you are looking out for them.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 12:38 PM

Thank you, Silas.
                         Nigel.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Oct 13 - 03:04 PM

I've ordered the DVD via Amazon. £11 something with super-saver free delivery.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 09:02 AM

I don't yet know whether Julia Jones will be selling the DVD from Mollie Music. If she does, please buy it from MM, rather than other outlets. Nic & Julia will benefit all the more.
                                                 Nigel.

Subject: RE: The Enigma of Nic Jones
From: pavane
Date: 14 Oct 13 - 09:56 AM

Big Al Whittle: You say that Nic didn't introduce songs, but he certainly did when I recorded him in 1973.