BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:05 PM

.. what.. me spreading fake news...!!!???

..outrageous...


|It's in the mail on the internet, so it must be true...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:01 PM

Much as it pains me to defend the Daily Fail, I strongly suspect that’s a fake, pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:54 PM

The Mail

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:05 PM

tory agenda is to wipe out unions and submit worker's pay and conditions
to the independent discretion / mercy of individual employers..

The specific longer term target for Education,
is to replace the current generation of teachers
with right wing recruits to the teaching profession...

This pandemic is an excellent opportunist gift for the tories
to exploit,
in achieving these aims..

By any unfair or foul means they will sink to...


This is not bonkers conspiracy theory..

The Govt are openly shamelessly flaunting this provocation in our faces...


This has been all so obvious all along...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 01:00 PM

And it gets worse...despite The Johnson Gang’s oft-repeated promise that any trade agreement with the US would include the proviso that our own food standards must be upheld...

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-us-trade-deal-food_uk_5ebc1544c5b6270384a98e17?guccounter=1

You really cannot believe a single word those treacherous, lying arseholes utter, can you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 11:48 AM

They are not independent as they rely on the state letting them off paying an awful lot of tax. It's called "charitable status." In order to maintain this, they have to be seen doing some "good" for the state sector. I found at least one prep school that is planning to open on June 1. It's a bit hard to find out unless you go on each school's website, and even then you won't necessarily find the info you want. The HMC website doesn't seem to be giving schools guidance.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 11:13 AM

I appreciate the information about Eton and the age of its intake (10.36 am).
Would I be alone in wondering whether any of the fee-paying schools (yes, I know they prefer the term "independent")* which take children of the relevant ages has any proposals to open at the same time as State Schools? I believe the term for these places is "Prep School".
Would I be alone in appreciating another example of how an answer can be absolutely accurate, and yet fail - carelessly or calculatedly - to address the obvious issue?



* No-one wants to argue against something like "independence", do they? Unless they can continue with a formula like, "Scotland has benefited from 300 years of Union...")

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:54 AM

. . . But without a return to full-time education at this stage.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:52 AM

Eton et al. don't do altruistic. They do "good" for the public sector in order to bolster their image, to try to make us forget their exclusivity and to stave off occasional expressed threats to their charitable status (a status which in my view is a perennial outrage). If there's little or nothing in it for them they won't do it, unless coerced.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:46 AM

Nigel, the government guidance wants exam-age children in years 10 and 12 to have FACE-TO-FACE contact with their teachers.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:46 AM

But Nigel surely an altruistic gesture from Eton college to allow their premises, which I presume are more than adequate, to be used would allow the number of pupils going back to school to be spread out a bit more and consequently lessen the chances of contamination.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:36 AM

One possible reason for the different treatment is that Eton starts at age 13, and the Government guidance on return to school is currently advising that nurseries, early years, and primary (reception & years 1 & 6) should be returning to school.
So any comparison between this guidance & Eton is misguided.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:25 AM

(Obviously the last was being composed whilst other messages were also being sent in response). ABCD.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:23 AM

Then, in the particular argument above, posted 17th May, 07.46, what might a Counter Argument be?
That is, what reasons might someone advance for disagreeing with what seems to me an eminently reasonable position. It's even proposing that all those "disadvantaged children" the compassionate Conservatives are so concerned about should altruistically share the enforced vacation of the rather more privileged young gentlemen of Eton. We are, after all, all in this together.
With regard to what reasons someone might have for insisting that the masses obediently send their mini-plebeians, that's a different thing again. I only asked what reasons might someone plausibly advance in opposition to the particular argument.
Over.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:10 AM

And yes,Nigel, a "the" would have helped, but let's not dwell.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 10:09 AM

That was part of the tweet. The author was challenging for the counter-argument to his three points, or, quite likely, he was being rhetorical..

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 May 20 - 09:55 AM

Q: WHAT IS COUNTER-ARGUMENT?

A: When somebody explains reasons for holding the opposing view.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:40 AM

So far today we've had a big academies trust bloke and now Gove swinging it against the teachers. This is determinedly political, and determinedly has nothing to do with the educational wellbeing of children. Be strong, teachers! ...Though it's too late to organise legal industrial action...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 20 - 08:02 AM

Here is a somewhat dense technical paper on excess deaths in England. (Not the UK, notice!)

It is not light reading, so I will just pull out a few sentences. If people want to discuss these in the context of the entire paper, I can do so.


While UK deaths attributed to Covid are the highest in Europe, the excess death data are likely to be more robust for the reasons given. England’s outcomes are the worst of the 24 countries or states for which EuroMOMO reports Z-scores. It is followed by Spain, Belgium, Netherlands, Italy and France. The total measure for all age groups up to the week ending 26 April 2020 (called week 17 by EuroMOMO), reveals that at the peak in week 15, England’s Z-score was 39.7 and in week 16 it was 36.9. These Z-scores correspond approximately to ONS data on the week ending April 17, of 21,182 deaths in England, compared to the ‘normal’ number of 9787 (based on the average of the previous 5
years). Excess deaths thus, were 11,395, or more than twice the expected number
...
The peak rate of excess deaths in England for the most vulnerable age group, the over-65s is also the
highest for the 24 countries or regions compared


...

More disturbing is the comparative story for the 15-64 age group, where England’s relative record in excess mortality in the Covid-19 era is particularly poor. At its peak (i.e. in the week with the highest excess mortality) , it is 2.7 times worse than the weekly peak in next worst country, Spain, almost 4 times worse than France and Belgium, and almost 5 times worse than Italy’s peak weekly excess deaths in the age group

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:46 AM

Happy to be corrected!

I note that Eton is shut until September. Here's a tweet from a couple of days ago that I've just seen:

State schools should reopen when
1. Private schools, like Eton, reopen
2. MPs are back crowded together on the benches at Westminster
3. Lords and Ladies are back crowded together in the House of Lords

WHAT IS COUNTER-ARGUMENT?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 17 May 20 - 07:08 AM

just a reminder, steve. johnson isn't talking about 'british exceptionalism' - he means english exceptionalism......and is referring to rumpUK. somehow this makes me feel a wee bit hopeful...that and the fact that my daughter just got a hospital job in glasgow.and i finished my jigsaw ....i never realised that klimt's the kiss had such big sections of indistinguishable gently sparkling brown. jags are still relegated though

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:54 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:52 AM

I suppose we will have to change Look! Labour antisemitism! To Look! Keir Starmer's donkeys!

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 06:36 AM

Well, John, in that case mebbe at least the last-two-in first-two-out creme eggs might've still been OK as they weren't up there for as long...

Just been having a Zoom natter to my bro in NZ about the way they are gradually relaxing the lockdown. Seems that most NZers highly approve of the way their government is handling things but even so there's criticism of unclear messages causing some people to stretch the rules. We could learn a lot from how other countries are doing, but Johnson would rather talk up British exceptionalism and resort to Great British Common Sense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 05:16 AM

Well, whad’ya know - the Tory Smear Machine has gone into action against Sir Keir Starmer already...over a field he bought near his disabled mother’s home for a donkey sanctuary to use for rescued donkeys!

You couldn’t make it up could you? Oh, the Tories already have...!!

https://www.indy100.com/article/keir-starmer-field-land-donkeys-worth-criticism-popularity-9518751?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:58 AM

”What a waste of creme eggs...though I suppose they could still be OK if he'd left the wrappers on...“

If the dozy, bollock-brained bugger left them up there for more than a minute or two, I reckon they’d have melted. That would take some sorting from the usual contents of the sigmoid colon and rectum! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:38 AM

And another self-appointed expert spouts about the schools' projected reopening, another head of an academy trust, therefore another amazing medical guru and top epidemiologist...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:34 AM

What a waste of creme eggs...though I suppose they could still be OK if he'd left the wrappers on...

A couple of other bits of right-wing lying, Dave: "The unions are holding the country to ransom"...not the non-doms, not the multinationals, not the off-shorers, not the Dysons and Bransons, all of whom can pull their money out of the country at the drop of a hat, maybe to find super-cheaper exploitable people elsewhere... And "These immigrant workers are driving wages down...", all of whom of course swarm into our country, and, once they've stolen our houses, our NHS, our benefits, our wives and our daughters, point guns at the heads of their employers shouting "Pay me less! Pay me less!"

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 May 20 - 04:07 AM

copy 'n' paste.. why not...

"Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 10 May 20 - 03:24 PM

Nigel - Reception are the least controllable in terms of social distancing,
[herding cats is a doddle in comparison...]
and amongst the most likely to be bringing and spreading death into classrooms..

The tory far right hate teachers,
maligning them as commie multicultralist brainwashers of British nationalist's children...

This outright prejudice is behind much of far right tory attitudes towards the teaching profession.

There will be much far right vindictive glee at the prospect of teachers & their families
falling ill and dying,
as a result of callous tory govt reopening plans...

The Mail and others will attack and slur teacher's unions trying to protect their members..

You know this to be true..."


Told ya so...
.. and it's a very personal real matter of life and death
for my wife and me...!!!


Well.. one rumour is Eton will be staying shut,
can't be risking the lives of posh kids and families [or their elite establishment teachers..]...

If this is this true.. they're keeping quiet about it..


Anyway, if tories are suddenly so concerned about 'disadvantaged children',
how about opening up Eton's wonderful facilities for them
if it's only going to be mothballed...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:44 AM

DMcG, there was a hilarious comment on social media about Johnson’s ‘good old British common sense’ - an image of a tabloid-press article, complete with photograph, about some knuckle-dragger who proudly announced to the nation that he claimed the record for shoving nine Creme Eggs up his arse.

If we’re relying on that kind of ‘Good old British common sense’, the only conclusion to be drawn is that we’re completely f**ked.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:38 AM

I think you’re right Dave. There was (still is?) a similar situation with the railways, where the operators were trying to enforce one-man-operations, a patently unsafe situation, on the system and the union objected on the grounds of the safety issue. All we ever heard from the Tory press and the media was that the unions were making life difficult for travellers, nothing about the intransigence of the operating companies’ managements.

They never seem to grasp the principle that it takes two to tango.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 20 - 03:37 AM

Apparently a survey carried out and reported this week found out:

------
Other findings indicated that only a minority have faith in Mr Johnson’s insistence the public use its “good British common sense” over lockdown rules, with nearly nine in 10 respondents trusting in their own judgement, but only 34 per cent trusting that of their fellow Britons

-----

Is anyone surprised?   It amply demonstrates that making 'common sense' a key part of your approach is absurd.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:59 AM

It was a gutter press headline about unions back in the 60s that sent me down the left hand path in the first place. It read "Unions bring country to a standstill" and was about a strike by train drivers. Hang on, thought I as a callow youth, there are two sides to every dispute. Why are they just blaming one side? Strange to see that they are still at it after 50+ years. This latest one is particularly cynical in its message. Shift the blame for the mismanagement of the health crisis away from the hooray Henrys that are currently in charge. I hope it is a step too far but am afraid that those who could not see through the three word populism of the last election will believe anything the right wing rags tell them :-(

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:30 AM

Brilliant, John. As you might expect I know a lot of teachers. I'll pass that on.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 17 May 20 - 02:02 AM

Following the vile, shameful front-page of the Daily Mail recently, in which teachers and their union were used as cannon-fodder in the current ‘blame-shifting’ exercise being carried out by the Johnson Gang and their tame-tabloid propaganda-mouthpieces, I thought this piece, a stark reminder of the divide-and-rule methodology of this dreadful so-called ‘government‘, was well worth a read.

I have no way of verifying its source, it claims to be written by a teacher, and I have no reason to doubt that it was. Even if it wasn’t, it has the ring of truth.

I’m aware that long C&Ps are discouraged here, but this piece is from a FB page, and I’m very loath to link to FB pieces. Hence the C&P.

”A teacher asked us to share this post debunking the lies currently being made about her profession:

"Hi I’m a secondary teacher.
Please can you publish this I need to put a few things straight.
Bear with me.
I’m a teacher.
I’m so upset and angry about the lies spread by the misinformed about me and my profession. They include :
1) We are lazy
2) We don’t want to go back to work
3) We should be ‘heroic’ like nurses and supermarket workers
4) We are ignoring disadvantaged students
5) Teachers’ Unions are divisive , driving a wedge between the government and teachers
My response:

1) We are lazy

Teachers are still working. My school is still OPEN. I am working as many hours as before. I’m just working differently. I am planning, marking, collating work, replanning lessons to be taught remotely, attending Zoom meetings, responding to and sending emails, keeping a constant dialogue with my students, working out new ways of giving feedback and going into school on a rota to work with children of key workers and those who are disadvantaged. Oh, and as a mum too, I’m trying to home school at the same time. We are not lazy.

2) We don’t want to go back to work.

We are professionals. We went into this job to shape young minds and allow all those in our care to thrive and succeed. That’s one of the most rewarding things about this job. Why would we not want to continue? I have exam groups who are missing GCSE content that needs to be taught face to face. I need to see kids in front of me, listening and engaging. Every day that they are not in school means that it is more difficult to catch up. So it will mean even more work, revision sessions etc... when we finally go back. Why would we want to heap that upon ourselves? We want to go back to work.

3)We are NOT heroes.

We know that. But we never thought we were. To compare us to nurses is entirely unfair and it creates a false equivalence. Nurses work with the sick. Apart from seeing to the odd cold, nose bleed or cut in school, we do not perform the same tasks as health care professionals. And we shouldn’t be seen as such. Nurses are brilliant and have full training in all areas (including infection and how to deal with it ) and are (usually) much better equipped with PPE. Furthermore, using emotive, military terms like ‘heroes’ is entirely unfair. It furthers the idea of a ‘battle’ against the disease, and creates connotations of sacrifices to be made, and when lives are lost, we make death an honourable martyrdom, a price worth paying. None of us should be expected to give our lives for our work- nurses, care workers, teachers, supermarket staff and any other vital workers. It is NOT a race to the bottom. We are NOT heroes.

4) We are ignoring disadvantaged students.

This is the latest emotional blackmail being used against us. Unfortunately, disadvantaged students make up a hell of a lot of my cohort. Fortunately, we have outstanding pastoral care that ensures that some of our disadvantaged students are getting regular contact with school. They are being visited, given food parcels (oh, did I mention that teachers contribute towards them too?) , given paper copies of work if they can’t access computers. Moreover, mentors are working closely with social services to give emotional support. Ironically, the amount of disadvantaged students in my own school has increased incredibly over the last ten years. So perhaps the government should be looking at the impact of its own austerity measures in creating these disadvantages. The disparity between the wealthy and the poor has been exacerbated by the ideological violence of austerity. Now we are expected to feel guilt about the widening gap between disadvantaged students and the rest. A gap created by policies designed to marginalise the most vulnerable in our society. Policies like shutting libraries and Sure Start centres, cuts to the social care budget, mental health provision and special needs provision. It’s like the government have set a time bomb ticking and expect us to diffuse it. Without any safety equipment.
And this is no different to what has happened to our valued friends and colleagues in the NHS.
We are not ignoring disadvantaged students.

5) Teachers’ Unions are divisive , driving a wedge between the government and the profession.

Again this is an unhelpful and over-simplistic narrative in the characterisation of the relationship between the union and its members. Unions, the bad guys, deliberately standing in the way of progress and common sense. People forget - we ARE the union. It is OUR voice which reflects our beliefs and wishes. Today, both the unions and the government were accused by the Children’s Commissioner of ‘squabbling’ with one other. This is unhelpful and, quite frankly, patronising, giving the media a nice sound bite that they can use in their campaign to further discredit unions and the work that they are doing to secure our safety.

Teachers are people. Mums, dads , grandmas , grandads, aunties, uncles , cousins and friends. Their lives are precious and worth caring about. My life is precious too.

You place your child’s education in our hands.

We’ll make sure they’re sanitised."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 20 - 05:42 PM

My small screen cropped your post so I read, "A Covid cardiologist at a top London hospital – friendly to Boris – has been so incensed by the daily charade of bogus omniscience that he vented his spleen in an email to me on Sunday night. It is a poignant indictment, so I pass along a few snippets..."

I would hope more folks are subject to interesting emails.
Its my fault for skimming in a rush and thinking it was your email.
Good catch anyway Backwoodsman

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 20 - 04:34 PM

I'll tek tha word fer it, Dave. As long as they don't leave the ethical gristle in the bangers... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 20 - 03:05 PM

Second paragraph above should read...

What I do have are my own thoughts, tweaked, tuned, and honed on the basis of what I see, hear, and read in the media and by the opinions of others whose views I trust and respect, and the ability, acquired during my own seventy-plus years of experience, to detect bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:45 PM

No Don, your suggestion that I am ‘in possession of some of the foremost info/secrets of the pandemic’ is nonsense. I have no ‘info’ or ‘secrets’ other than those which are available to any other member of the general public through the usual media channels.

What I do have are my own thoughts, tweaked, tuned, and honed on the basis of what I see, hear, and read in the media, and the ability, acquired during my own seventy-plus years of experience, to detect bullshit.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 20 - 02:02 PM

You email was nonsense backwoodsman? It sounded real to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 20 - 01:01 PM

My wife just mentioned internet reports of an anti lockdown protest in Wales..

A mass protest of 3 people...

I wonder if they wore masks...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:47 PM

In relation to earlier posts from me:

A “mass gathering” held on Saturday in Southampton saw around a dozen protesters gather on the city’s common, holding placards saying “stop the lies”, “say no to tyranny” and “fight 4 freedom”.

====

There seemed some confusion whether this protest was supposed to happen today or tomorrow, so we will have to see.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:16 PM

Mossers meat is usually pretty ethical, Steve. Either from their own farms or sourced locally. Can't say if the meat boxes are the same though.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 16 May 20 - 12:12 PM

Fully in agreement (here specifically, and generally). In addition to these likely developments, naturally the recent insistence on people using judgment, discretion, "common sense" and so on when deciding on their actions during this "relaxation of Lockdown" will allow a rapid escalation in cases to be blamed, in part, on "the actions of an irresponsible few". Come to think of it, that phrase would actually be accurate, though you would want to be precise in identifying who these are.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:44 AM

I'm not one to brag.. but check my post history..

I was way ahead of the herd in my predictions
of a tory exploitation of the pandemic, to cull the costly old and weak..

..and then demonising teachers' unions

[first they came for the teachers...]..


..btw.. my wife's union messaged yesterday for members to prepare
for the right wing media attack this weekend...
One of her friends, a deputy head is in despair of the anticipated backlash,
and orchestrated strategy to turn the public against them...

Next we can expect the divide and rule nastiness
of pitting city and big town dwellers against seaside and country folk...

It's good pick me up for the petrol industry, and seeding more death in the in provincial regions
which have so far failed to cull enough expensive useless oldies and invalids...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:28 AM

meat boxes for the elderly...???


... coffins...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:18 AM

”Backwoodsman you are in possesion of some of the formost info/secrets of the pandemic. Good on you mate.
May your luck and choices be the best.“

I am in possession of no such thing(s). Stop making up nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:11 AM

I saw the ad for those meatboxes, Bonzo. The photos made the meat look insipid. I like to know about welfare standards when I buy meat (little red tractors don't do it for me), and Morrisons aren't usually very forthcoming about that. Good luck with it. I buy some meat online from Donald Russell. Only ever buy what's on special and spend forty quid min to get free delivery. It comes frozen and, if you're really lucky, you get little packets of dry ice to play with. Damn good quality. Sorry, Barb'ry, totally off-topic but the lad had to be told!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 20 - 11:03 AM

Notable that the BMA supports the teachers' stance*. Bunch of people there with pretty good knowledge of matters medical, I should think, unlike the bosses of academy trusts and Children's Commissioners and other Tory stooges... And I see we have Williamson doing the press conference today. If you have buttocks, prepare to clench them now (with apologies to the Bard...)

*Just to show that I do know where that apostrophe should have gone in me earlier post...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 16 May 20 - 10:48 AM

Backwoodsman you are in possesion of some of the formost info/secrets of the pandemic. Good on you mate.
May your luck and choices be the best.