BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:27 PM

No, no need to follow Twitter at all.
I read Jim's post as suggesting that he believed that Johnson & Patel had not commented on the murder, so I just did a quick search to put the record straight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:23 PM

Nigel - so.. do we all have to follow twitter by the minute now..

.. and how many accounts should be subscribed to,
so as to stay on top of breaking important PR twitterings...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 02:17 PM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM

Laarge 'Black Lives Matter' demonstrations all over Britain despite Patel's warning
. . .
Let's see what Johnson and Patel have to say about the murder

Boris Johnson has already commented: Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said is appalled and sickened by the death of George Floyd, and that his message to people in the US is that "racist violence has no place in our society". from BBC, Here

Also Priti Patel has commented (by Twitter) Just received update from
@metpoliceuk
. Thanked officers & expressed my concern at small number of reports of violence.

I'm sickened at George Floyd's death. But protests must be peaceful & in accordance with social distancing rules. from Here

So to suggest that we still await comments from them is a little disingenuous.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:10 PM

..btw.. does Priti Patel's thickly plastered glamorous make-up count as a protective mask...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 01:08 PM

Raggy - the foolhardy bravado of young idealistic protesters..

I'm always conflicted in my thoughts about the effectiveness of mass demonstrations......

..but as our boldly coloured Rock Against Racism badges
proudly sloganised 40 odd years ago - when I was 18..

"Black and White, UNITE and FIGHT...".....

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM

Whilst I have every empathy with the marchers I am afraid there will be a very high price to be paid for these gatherings.

I suspect that some people on the marches will contract the virus because of their attendance and that some of those people will die.

Like I suggest a very high price.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 12:39 PM

Laarge 'Black Lives Matter' demonstrations all over Britain despite Patel's warning
Thousands packed into Parliament Square them marched to the American Embassy - most appeared to be wearing protective masks - they were being handed out by stewards
Makes you proud
Let's see what Johnson and Patel have to say about the murder
A large demonstration in Australia which has been extended to include Aboriginal rights
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 08:55 AM

It’s the money, follow the money, it’s always the money with the Nasty Greedy Party.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 08:32 AM

Priti Patel, defender of Cummings's driveabouts up country and taking a risk by allowin people to full London Tube trains fro the sake of the economy, has urged people not to attend the demonstrations against racism that are now taking place all over the planet; some lves matter, some don't with some people
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:50 AM

;-) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 06:07 AM

Look! Labour antisemitism!

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jun 20 - 04:49 AM

Liz Gerrard, in Thursday’s ‘New European’, telling the sorry tale of how we are being taken for fools by The Johnson Gang.

Those of us whe haven’t fallen for the Right’s propaganda, or their three-word slogans, big red buses etc. already know it, but it doesn’t hurt to make the point, very eloquently, once more.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM

We buy whatever deals we can afford on any day in Tesco,
we're that skint even on the wife's senior teacher salary..

Our informed education and knowldege about quality healthy foods is usless,
when we ain't got the £££s..

There's too many folks much worse off than us..
we're all the ones at risk from tory lies
about 'not' selling out food and health standards to trump's gangster mob...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:53 AM

I have a concern about the chicken angle, I must admit. It is just symbolic of the difference in food standards rather than itself key: banning chicken imports but allowing everything else would not do. I suspect we might end up with such a deal, and then in a decade or so get rid of the "anomaly" in the trade agreement mentioning chicken.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 10:26 AM

I buy lots and lots of chicken, always free-range. It's always British. Not that I particularly look for British either. I'm slightly baffled by the idea that we need to import any chicken. Maybe I don't look hard enough...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 07:15 AM

26 Jun 2017 - Michael Gove says 'no' to chlorinated chicken
The Environment Secretary Michael Gove has said chickens that have been washed in chlorine will not be allowed in the UK as part of any trade deal, once the UK leaves the European Union.

4 June 2020 - Government ready to open British markets to chlorinated chicken for US trade deal"

Let's not get into arguments about whether it is 'safe' or not, and focus on how this is yet another broken commitment.

If we do have to widen it, let's ask for the slightest evidence their promises on the NHS should be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 04:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7zkejgYSlg

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Jun 20 - 03:50 AM

The tale of Alok Sharma will 'have legs' (as they say) if he is confirmed as positive.

If Parliamentarians do not self-isolate after contact with him, it will be the 'one rule for us and one for you' all over again.   If they do, it will once again call the reopening into question - in fact, it could even be necessary to close it again. Then there is the fact that all the MPs are now traipsing back back to their constituencies, potentially carrying the infection, which will also question the 'travel as far as you like for work and exercise' decisions.

Then there is the effectiveness of 'track and trace' with him as a test case.

Moreover, because he was ill so publicly, it cannot be hushed up as some other cases have been. All in all, if he does test positive, yet another headache for the government.

And, given how visible and relatively sudden the symptoms were, if he does not test positive there might be questions about whether the tests are reliable.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 07:11 PM

Two very good telly reports tonight. Dispatches on Channel 4 gave an excoriating account of this government's inept path through this crisis, and Katie Razzall's report on Newsnight was a devastating condemnation by facts of this government's murderous care home policy. And murderous is not too strong a word.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:27 PM

John Crace, as ever, telling it exactly like it is about Johnson’s latest PMQs disaster. Sir Keir Starmer’s demolition of the blustering, arm-waving intellectually-lightweight Johnson - even on a day when Starmer wasn’t at his usual best - was so complete, I almost felt sorry for Johnson. Almost.

Johnson, knowing he was a beaten man before he even stepped up to face Starmer, did his usual Blame-Shifting act, trying to lay his totally inept handling of the Covid-19 crisis at Labour’s door. And he steadfastly refused to condemn Agent Orange for his disastrous handling of the George Floyd murder and its aftermath.

How much longer can Johnson keep getting away with his constant failures?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

The last vote took 93 minutes, because MPs had to queue up. If there are four or five votes in a day, that is 3 hours or more queuing

Sorry for the odd maths in that. The first vote on the amendment took 40 minutes, so I took that into account in saying 3 or more hours. Obviously at around 1.5 hours each you do not need four or five to reach 3 hours.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:58 AM

we'd be better of if Patel was involved...!!!?????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:24 AM

Why are no women taking part in decision making for lockdown?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Jun 20 - 02:15 AM

The last vote took 93 minutes, because MPs had to queue up. If there are four or five votes in a day, that is 3 hours or more queuing, with a section of this in in the rain if the weather is bad.

I don't believe MPs will do this. They will simply not vote, just like my MP last night. Maybe he is self isolating, or may he could not be bothered, I don't know.   But either way, this reduces representation in Parliament significantly.

Warning: Germany reference coming up, but at least it is not the usual ones.

One thing I never really understood about the Enabling Act in Germany in 1933 is why the members of Parliament voted to give themselves less power: in normal circumstance that seems counter-intuitive. But in the circumstances we are in, MPs are also voting to give themselves less power, albeit less directly. Basically, each MP who voted for this said if they have to go into isolation, they want their constituency to be unrepresented.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 11:21 AM

one little virus to be conveniently blamed for the national economic disaster
'we' all anticipated brexit might cause...

..a bit like sneakily hiding a few murder victims under a pile of pandemic deaths in a mass grave...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 09:52 AM

Forgot to add that I was rather touched when Everton announced they would be offering a gesture of support to the anti racist demonstrations in the U.S.
Pity it was The Blues, but you can't have everything :-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 09:49 AM

"The Tories allowed themselves to be sucked into it, one of the reasons being they were worried by Farage"
The Tories were led by the nose by Farage and the benefitted from allowing him to play the race card
That particular stunt is about to hit the fan when those protesting now about the killing in America follw the US lead and make it about the increasing level of racism in British society - Brexit has produced a 'dog returning to its vomit' scenario
In addition, an inevitably economically crippled U. S. is no longer going to even pretend to fill the gap leaving Europe has left
People were always ready to change their vote - that's why it was never allowed as an option once the consequences of leaving became clear
Britain did well from Europe and would have done a damn sight better if it had entered in the spirit of co-operation rather than wanting to have everything their own way - a legacy of Empire
The worst aspect of Brexit has been Johnson himself, a racist misogynist, openly lying (before the cameras even) buffoon not even taken seriously by his own party and happily prepared to drop Britain in the pocket of the most dangerous madman on the planet
One of his only positive contributions has been turn the Tory Party into a scrap between two factions - unfortunately, this has happened when Britain desperately needs a united front against a major pandemic - not exactly good timing
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 09:34 AM

Well I could agree with you, Nigel. I would just say that a decision to join is neither irrevocable nor black-and-white (we could join with conditions, as indeed we did, and Mrs Thatcher strained to maintain that exceptionalism, for example). The decision to leave was irrevocable and meant that there were no terms we could dictate, as we are now finding. We might have been told that there were all sorts of things we can now control. Sadly, it wasn't really true, was it? One little virus...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:33 AM

In 1975 17,378,581 out of a population of 56.23 million, said they thought that the UK should remain in the EC (as was)

Again, I am not a fan of referendums. The Tories allowed themselves to be sucked into it, one of the reasons being they were worried by Farage.

I always thought it would be close and I never thought it was going to be an easy result for the remain side. It is something that split the country and continues to do so. If we had another referendum now I would expect a close result again. I personally do not think that many people would change their vote.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 08:24 AM

Downing Street to scrap weekend briefings due to 'low ratings'

Downing Street is to scrap ministerial coronavirus briefings at the weekend, blaming poor TV viewing figures, writes Andrew Woodcock.
The move comes after ministers were blasted by the UK’s statistics watchdog for “misleading” use of figures on Cover-19 testing at the daily briefings.

====

And here I was assuming the point was to give information about the virus, rather than 'ratings'.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:49 AM

Better "majority of" rather than "support of".
("Bracket", I believe, was originally coined when television coverage of Parliament began in Canada, and politicians crowded around the senior ministers either to get their faces seen by their constituents, or to disguise the fact that the chamber was half-empty

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:37 AM

The Westminster Governments can hardly have been unaware of such concerns. The referendum on Scottish Independence in 1979 required support of more than 40% of the electorate for any Constitutional change to be effected. Sometimes, it seems, the rules might just possibly be modified in a plausibly defensible way, in order to make the result desired by some just that bit more likely.
How fondly I remember our Own Dear Queen intoning how she could not forget that she was crowned Queen "of a United Kingdom", carefully negotiating the requirement to keep apart from politics. At least she didn't say using bleach might keep you safe from the Hielan' Midgies.

Wonder which Tory sycophants will be fast-tracked to "bracket" The Bould Boris. Looks or voice?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:23 AM

Or to put it another way, 17 million people dragged 66 million people out of the EU. That's an irrevocable change that should have required a super-majority and a minimum turnout for it to pass. Neither of those barriers that we **true democrats** were asking for (typically a two-thirds majority with a minimum 75% turnout) were crossed. Comparing the result with general elections is invidious. Election results are reversible.

To be consistent, you should believe the same for the 1975 referendum, for which the turnout was only 64%. Then (under your requirements) there would have been no need for a referendum to get us out, as we would not have confirmed our membership in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:19 AM

General elections have become things you do out of habit rather than expectation
Everybody knows it is an exercise for the dog to the polling booth rather than a hope that the politicians would break the habit of a lifetime by carrying out what they promised before the election
Leaving Europe should have pushed the percentages into the 90s rather than wavering around the lower seventies
Elections are now won on negative promises - this time, getting "Johnny Foreigner' off our backs", captured perfectly by Farage's 'Son of Rivers of Blood' poster - a policy that disgraced its former architect out of politics because he was an embarrassment even to a right-wing party with its roots in racism like yours
Referenda are far more democratic than General Elections have become in Britain - they have made th world a better place for homodexuals, for women and hopefully, for the homeless in the near future
For the former two, see the discrepencies beween the Irish Republic and the little bit of Ieland that still prtends to be British in the N.E of this country (even that is teetering on the point of cjange as the Empire continues to crumble to dust)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:05 AM

A debate - and shortly a vote - is under way in Parliament on whether to allow MPs who are legally required to isolate to vote remotely, or whether the absurd looking 'Alton Towers' ((c) various MPs) queueing system must be used for voting.

I have no doubt a lot of Tories will vote to use the JRM-approved queues, but don't think they have considered what that means. A lot of them are happy to skip the debates and nip down to the lobbies for 5 minutes three or four times a day to cast their vote. That is quite and ego-stroking of their power.

Queueing for an hour a time, so maybe half a day spent standing in line is another matter.

Between these, I would expect the number of MPs actually voting on things over the next month or two to be substantially less than average. And, to me, that damages Parliamentary authority far more than where people are when they vote.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 07:00 AM

Or to put it another way, 17 million people dragged 66 million people out of the EU. That's an irrevocable change that should have required a super-majority and a minimum turnout for it to pass. Neither of those barriers that we true democrats were asking for (typically a two-thirds majority with a minimum 75% turnout) were crossed. Comparing the result with general elections is invidious. Election results are reversible.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 06:23 AM

Going back to Jim's post on the Brexit Referendum

According to wiki the turnout for the 2016 referendum was 72.21 % of registered voters and 65.38 % of people of voting age

That does compare favourably with the last 6 general election turnouts of 59.4%, 61.4 %, 65.1 % , 66.1 %, 68/7 % and 67.3 %

Personally I am not in favour of referendums under our present set up. Even the referendum of 1975 was non-binding. I am not sure how it would have gone down if the government had ignored that result at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Jun 20 - 05:53 AM

Without Iains as a provocateur posting has slowed down here a bit

Proof that provoking works

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 02:47 PM

Buzzfeed: We’re Keeping A Running List Of Hoaxes And Misleading Posts About The Nationwide Police Brutality Protests.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 02:08 PM

The right wing media will demonise and marginalise any protests
as "militant red mob violence and looting"...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 01:54 PM

London has now joined in the demonstrations against the American killing and it seems to have extended to attacking Trump's demand that more force be used against the protesters
He seems to be on the point of declaring martial law in Washington
Wonder which way Boris will jump
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 01:45 PM

"Really? I don't think so"
The majority tp leave was less than 4%
30% od the population did not vote
Asa far as the leavers and the stoppers were concerned the result was a forgone conclusion tight up to the announcement - that the remainers would win - nobody can deny that the result was a surprise - even farage did not expect to win - go look at the photographs as the result was announced
The Brexiteeers had every reason to go to the polls - the remainers had every reason not to bother as staying was a done deal
Yes - pitiful minority just about sums it up
I'm afraid
If that hadn't been the case the Tories would not have fought so hard against a second referendum
It really isnn't rocket science R. D.
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 12:02 PM

No doubt some did vote for Boris but then I would imagine that some voted for Corbyn.

Personally I think Boris and/or the Tory party gathered a fair few of their votes from Brexit supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 12:01 PM

I think Boris's fan club has already fled, PFR. His approval rating dropped a massive amount over the last few days. It's one thing we have to thank Cummings for :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 11:53 AM

""If they're thick enough to have voted boris in power" So anyone who votes for a different party than the one you support is either thick or brainwashed or deluded etc etc"

That'a a good example of how this argument tactic is deployed by far right internet social media shills...

I said nothing about anyone voting for a political party.
But everything about the populist cult of personality
taking over our govt and politics..

Just like in Europe 80 odd years ago..

Now, they were thick enough to vote for BORIS..


The tory party were desperately cynical to put boris up as their prime contender,
knowing full well the populist vote would be for him as an individual charismatic 'celebrity' personality.

Folks who would never before stoop to vote conservative, did fall for the charms of boris..

Next general election we will find out if the conservative party relied too heavily on the boris fan club factor...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 11:33 AM

" Brexit would have been a clear winner rather than the pitiful minority of the whole population it was"

Really? I don't think so. Of course Brexit might well have been a winner but only a "pitiful minority of the whole population" I take it that you would have found that acceptable?

"If they're thick enough to have voted boris in power" So anyone who votes for a different party than the one you support is either thick or brainwashed or deluded etc etc

Good to see that the "four legs good, two legs bad" outlook is still going strong on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 11:26 AM

At the moment the two top most plausible alternatives
to Doris's 'truthful account:..

are:

A] cummings panicked and fled London in sheer every man for himself terror,
like a cowardly 'boo hiss villain' in a disaster movie..

B] The trip up north is a poorly contrived cover story hiding nefarious corrupt business dealings
on behalf of Doris's evil international billionaire corporate backers...

One day will proper old fashioned honest investigative journalism
ever expose
who Doris is really working for to control Britain...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 11:24 AM

"For some, is there any limit?"
I think that pretty well reflects the ontempt your Party has for the electorate
People vove based on the information they are given - as that information is overwhelmingly filtered through a right wing, highly manipulated media and what tit-bits of information the establishment sees fit to let us have, intelligent decisions are hardly likely
Brexit was typical of that situation
Had not the business establishment and the press not been divided on the issue as well as the politicians themselves, Brexit would have been a clear winner rather than the pitiful minority of the whole population it was
Thos in charge have now realised that and have unleashed the highly toxic Populist genii out of the bottle
Dangerous days in so many ways (I'm a poet and didn't know it)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:59 AM

If they're thick enough to have voted boris in power,
they'll believe any old bollocks he mumbles out at 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jun 20 - 10:55 AM

How thick does this govt think we all are...????

For some, is there any limit?
You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. (Lincoln?)