BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:47 AM

unfounded slur on the government efforts"
Johnson has just admitted that the Tories have dropped a bollock on care Homes and apologised for it
How dare you contradict our glorious leader ?
You really are asking for the Scummings Frog March treatment
Or maybe Johnson is still delirious after his bout of the Dreaded Lurgi !!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:45 AM

Maybe that is not an accurate quotation in (or from) the Guardian. Elsewhere it is being reported:

Of Belgium’s registered deaths, 44 percent died in hospital (and were tested). The majority, 54 percent, died in a nursing home — and only in 7.8 percent of those cases was COVID-19 confirmed as the cause. (Yes, I know 44%+54% is less than a 100% - some deaths are in neither hospital nor care homes.)


Agreed, then, 54% are in nursing homes. But less than ten percent are confirmed to be because of covid-19, if those other reports are correct.

Everyone, including in these threads and the government spokesmen and their scientists, is saying international comparisons have to be done with extreme care because they do not all count the figures in the same way. Belgium is a very good example where the counting includes more than then UK system does.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:43 AM

Care homes contain a lot of older people who are more at risk from dying from the virus.

Social care is something that needs to be looked at. It has been avoided by most governments here in the UK. It would be nice to think that the major parties would try to get together to come up with a long term plan. I am not sure that I will live long enough to ever see that happening in the UK. Whichever party is in charge they seemed happy enough to leave it for the next government to tackle.

Jim posted his usual "One of the things Ireland is streets ahead on is the respect shown for the elderly - despite right wing Governments and a somewhat indifferent younger generation that probably lost that respect through emigration and picking up bad habits"

Streets ahead? I don't think so. Then you blame that on right wing (do you ever see any other sort?) governments, and emigration? MMmmm now I wonder which country that they emigrate to that is the cause of that?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:24 AM

The care-nothing Tories expect the oldies to get more bugs and just shrug. Had the reality been faced up to at the beginning of this crisis, we wouldn't have the devastating situation in care homes that we now have.

So let me get this right. It is all the tories fault.

According to the Guardian Belgium counts all coronavirus deaths outside hospitals in its daily statistics: deaths in care homes account for 53% of the total.
According to the Irish Times:Nursing homes account for 50 per cent of coronavirus deaths in Ireland
The guardian again:Snapshot data from varying official sources shows that in Italy, Spain, France, Ireland and Belgium between 42% and 57% of deaths from the virus have been happening in homes, according to the report by academics based at the London School of Economics (LSE).
Those tories get everywhere do they not?
OR is your allegation just a totally unfounded slur on the government efforts. Even the lefty Guardian cannot support your accusation!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 10:14 AM

"Mr Cummins responsible for what happens in Ireland as well."
You mean the generosity that is being shown by the Irish people of course
They certainly aren't responsible for the humanity that still exists here - their types tried to wipe that out with starvation a century and a half ago

What Seve said about overworked, underpaid and unappreciated care-home workers - with knobs on
One of the things Ireland is streets ahead on is the respect shown for the elderly - despite right wing Governments and a somewhat indifferent younger generation that probably lost that respect through emigration and picking up bad habits
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 09:28 AM

"Care homes have always been very vulnerable to infection, hardly surprising as they house people with health conditions."

Care homes are vulnerable to infection because there are very high levels of staffing who are coming and going 24/7 in shifts, and because quite large numbers of people are close together, and because it's a challenge keeping on top of the stringent hygiene requirements, both personal and communal. It doesn't help that the staff are just about the lowest-paid in the land, receive only the most basic training and are daily confronted with some tasks that many of us would find unpleasant.

You are not necessarily more vulnerable to infection simply because you have "health conditions," though you may suffer more severely should you acquire an infection. The distinction between your remark and the reality is the very reason we have such a crisis now in care homes. The care-nothing Tories expect the oldies to get more bugs and just shrug. Had the reality been faced up to at the beginning of this crisis, we wouldn't have the devastating situation in care homes that we now have.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 09:07 AM

>I>People are now dying in Care Homes possibly because Johnson is following Scumming's suggestion that they should be a low priority - not thirty years ago - NOW



You   can hardly make Boris or the esteemed Mr Cummins responsible for what happens in Ireland as well. Surely even you cannot believe that, or can you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:59 AM

People are now dying in Care Homes possibly because Johnson is following Scumming's suggestion that they should be a low priority - not thirty years ago - NOW
Perhaps you might like to discuss the generation that was unnecessarily slaughtered in WW1 - that seems to be the direction your heading to ?
Or maybe whataboutism is more your metier
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:59 AM

A similar "fiasco" in Ireland but he utters not a word


https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0501/1135937-coronavirus-ireland/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:55 AM

he would rather talk about 17 year old Labour politics rather than the cock-ups that are being made as we speak

As a response to a   30 year old Tory politics being dredged up actually.
Johnson has just apologised for the inexcusable care-home fiasco and his colleague is still defending the equally fiascopic testing non-policy
Care homes have always been very vulnerable to infection, hardly surprising as they house people with health conditions. If able bodied they would be unlikely to be in a care home. At least in the UK the risk is recognised and acted on - unlike Spain where some care homes were abandoned and the residents left to die.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/corpses-elderly-abandoned-spanish-care-homes-200324141255435.html
Hardly a care home fiasco after all the risk to vulnerable members of society is well known and the NHS has produced leaflets specifically targeting care homes.
https://phw.nhs.wales/services-and-teams/beat-flu/resources/other/beat-flu-information-pack-for-care-homes-english/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:18 AM

"And sooner or later, they change back"
Actually that's not exactly true Baccie
Things seldom, if ever return to where they were, especially after a crisis
Incredible progress was made in Britain after WW1 much of which was lost by the depression
The role of women (albeit upper and middle class ones) never really returned to as they were, but it took a deal with the devil on the part of the Suffragettes to send young man to their deaths in the tranches to achieve that small step
World War Twe gave us the Welfare State and other advantages never quite whittled away by the Tories since, but they'r doing their best
Conservationism by definition means keeping things as they are
Our present Tory supporter is a case in point - he would rather talk about 17 year old Labour politics rather than the cock-ups that are being made as we speak

Johnson has just apologised for the inexcusable care-home fiasco and his colleague is still defending the equally fiascopic testing non-policy
I don't believe history repeats itself but, with the Tories, some things never change, as we are learning daily, to our cost
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 20 - 08:09 AM

The wrong man for the job. ‘Twas ever thus.
But things change in politics, and change again they will.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:59 AM

remember the well-deserved fate of The Beast of Grantham, shafted by her own cronies.

or more recently the corbynated clown, rightly shafted by the informed British Electorate

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:42 AM

It’s the nature of politics - things change. And sooner or later, they change back. There’s nothing permanent in the political world - remember the well-deserved fate of The Beast of Grantham, shafted by her own cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 07:03 AM

And Labour's parliamentary overall majority was 167.>

Thus times change even more. Thank you for making the point even more dramatic.
How far have the "mighty" fallen!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:56 AM

And I'd have been better saying that the overwhelming majority of Tories voted for the war. When I said "almost every Tory MP" I remembered the two demurrers but neglected to include abstentions. But my point stands. In fact, a far greater proportion of Tory MPs than Labour MPs supported the war.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:38 AM

Two Tory MPs voted against and 17 abstained. 84 Labour MPs voted against and 67 abstained. Quoting the actual numbers is better than providing circuitous interpretations. And Labour's parliamentary overall majority was 167. Glad to be of help.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 06:15 AM

By the way, almost every Tory MP supported Tony Blair in voting for the war.
The actual vote:
Labour Party (254), Conservative Party (146), Ulster Unionist Party (6), Democratic Unionist Party (5), Independent Conservative (1)


It would be more correct to say that for every Tory supporter there were nearly   2 labour supporters of the motion. Labour having an 88 seat   overall majority. (how times change!)
Silver tongued tony obviously had a way with words.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 05:41 AM

Totally in line with what I'm saying Steve
All I would add is that if this emergency were to end tomorrow (it won't of course), it's repercussions will be felt for a long time, probably decades
One of the major dangers is that the government, given it's built-in philosophy, will attempt to pay for those repercussions by putting the pressue on those who can least afford it
Does anybody seriously believe the wealthy will be asked to dig into their bank-balances to make up for what the nation is already losing ?
Yes - you can get cancer treatment without hving your history dragged in - how long is that likely to last when the purse holders are having to prioritise
This is why I added the Dom the Div policy to my posting

Just read about the Irish/Choctaw nation charity - still wiping the tears from my eyes
Surely the most human story to emerge from thois virus mess
Might open a thread on it as a morale booster - it shows the world is still lagely populated by human beings

CHOCTAW NATION CHARITY
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 05:05 AM

Jim, in line (I think) with the sentiment of your post, the point I'm trying to make is that the middle of a pandemic (one incidentally, that is much worse in this country than it needs to be because of the Tory government's ineptitude) is not the time to start pointing fingers at people with medical conditions, whatever their cause. A fundamental principle of the NHS is that it doesn't judge. You won't be turned away suffering from a heart attack or diabetes because you weigh 18 stones. You won't be refused treatment for lung cancer or COPD because you've been a smoker. You get the same treatment as everyone else. You may be given friendly advice as to your lifestyle. We acknowledge that bad lifestyle choices can arise through poverty, ignorance or poor education. Instead of bollocking people for being obese, I could instead say (I won't) that we should shut down all KFCs and McShitteries and supermarket cake aisles...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:53 AM

Moderator, I know the post hasn't been there for very long, but please consider removing the troll post of 04.05 AM.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:22 AM

The main problem now, Car homes
My   car does not have a home. My garage is used   for far   more important things.   I   would have thought covid-19    was   a tad more of a problem. Perhaps all   the rain in the west of Ireland creates a different perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 06 May 20 - 04:05 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:02 PM
Why the anger?? are you overweight?
As the Clinical Director of the Weight Management and Wellness Center at Children’s Hospital of Pittsburgh and Associate Professor of Pediatrics at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine has said:
"Telling overweight people that eating too much is the root cause of their problem is met with disappointment, denial, and even anger.
Why is it so hard for some people to accept they are obese because they eat too much? Consider that I’ve never heard of a patient with lung cancer or emphysema deny having smoked too much. Nor have I even once heard of a patient with a sexually transmitted disease claim to be chaste, but obesity and its indisputable connection to overeating has much worse implications. The Catholic Church divided sin into two categories: venial or minor, and capital or deadly. Gluttony, together with lust, greed, sloth, wrath, envy, and pride, is among the latter."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 20 - 03:44 AM

"You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're a man."
Everything on your list and much more can be applied to mot other ailment in Britain today Steve - you may add general life expectancy to that list
Sam Larner had it summed up perfectly with the old Norfolk rhyme

"If health were a thing that money could buy
The rich would live and the poor would die"

Things have got worse rather than better - pretty provable with statistics too

The main problem now, Car homes, appears to bear out the accusations that Dom the Scumbag suggested that the weakest and most vulnerable in society should be sacrificed for the 'greater good' - it seems to be 'coming to pass' even though it was vehemently denied by the nodding dogs
The Government appears also to be dancing to big Business's tune and pushing through a relaxation of security measures while the crisis is still at it's peak
Madness
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 06 May 20 - 02:54 AM

According to some reports Rishi Sunak is preparing to wind down coronavirus furlough scheme from July.

There was only ever one rationale for the scheme: to ensure the businesses concerned and the people furloughed stayed together to ease the businesses restarting. So unless the lockdown is released enough for that to happen, all the money concerned has been thrown away for no purpose. And then the whole population must feel confident enough to use the services these businesses provide. And they must, of course, have enough money to do so.

As we have said before, reopening the economy is no simple matter.   But to end or reduce the furlough scheme without very precise targeting will have wasted the whole idea - which, let us recall, most of the "lefties" on these thread welcomed, and did the "righties". (It was on the previous incarnation, I think. Or possibly the one before, I lose track.)

There has been some essentially pointless speculation of what would have happened if Labour had won the election. One thing I am certain of is that had Labour won, and pursued exactly the financial policy Rishi Sunak did, we would hear that "Labour came in, wrecked the budget, forced businesses to the wall and created mass unemployment" for the next thirty years or so...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:32 PM

But I do blame the government for not ruling a weekly intake of treacle pudding and custard as added protection against the virus!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:22 PM

Thank Clapton for that !!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:05 PM

And, by the sound of it, you are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're living in the UK. And the UK has been run by Tories for the last ten years.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 06:02 PM

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're a man.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're old.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're poor.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you're black.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you live in an urban area.

You are more likely to die of Coronavirus if you live in a care home.

If you're overweight, or if you smoke, or if you drink too much, or if you sleep on the street, or if you don't exercise, sure, I'm going to give you a clean slate. Why? Because, like all the rest of us, you didn't live your life making a calculation about a virus that suddenly threatens us. In some ways I could be given to thinking that it's a shame that the virus doesn't preferentially attack the intolerant, the privileged and the bigoted. But I'll go high and, well, think like a human being instead.

Grand if you see anger in this post.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:43 PM

UK wants to improve privacy safeguards for the tracking application. You can read the reasons, but an important one, as I said earlier, is that if people don't trust the app will protect privacy, less will download it, so it will be less effective. This is a human factors issue, less than a technical one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:16 PM

Smoking is frowned upon and now banned in many places because it causes canncer and many other medical conditions. Why should
obesity be given a clean slate? it is equally damaging to health and caused by gluttony (apart from a minority with medical conditions)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 May 20 - 04:01 PM

Well it's hardly surprising, as obesity is quoted as an underlying condition with regard to the aggravation of heart disease, diabetes, etc., as well. Making the point that obese people may suffer worse from Coronavirus is valid. But just leave it there, eh? Well, unless you want to blame "fatties" for eating too many pies and fish suppers, of course, and telling us that they deserve all they get....

As for politicians and telling lies, well of course. But using the phenomenon to make some kind of distinction twixt Tory and Labour is simply dishonest. The other day, apropos of the last day of April, we were told by the Tories that the 100,000 tests per day target had been achieved, but it was a bare-faced lie, as around a third of those "tests" were merely test kits still in transit. Since then, the testing numbers have failed to reach that target every day, as I recollect. Best to accept that, to be a success in politics, you have to be quite good at spinning, bending the truth, putting on the best gloss, accentuating the positive...and, why, even telling lies...

By the way, almost every Tory MP supported Tony Blair in voting for the war. Millions of us on the street, holding hands, singing songs and waving banners, knew bloody well that Blair was lying. Perhaps the Tories were all just a bit too thick to see it. Or, instead, rather liked the idea of kicking Iraqi arse...

I can't decide which is worse, lying or hypocrisy...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:59 PM

Incidentally Farage has been "spoken to" by the police for visiting Bournemouth. He claimed he was a "key worker" !!!

What an a...……………… !

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:54 PM

Bonzo, Irrespective of other issues their deaths have been recorded as being caused specifically by the virus. They may not have died (yet) had the government reacted in a speedy manner.

The "yet" is there because we all die eventually, we just like to put if off for as long a possible, normally.

So how about addressing how the government have signally failed in their responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:38 PM

Thank you Iains, that's very interesting indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:09 PM

And of the deaths, how many were fat with otherwise big health problems,..............
"Of those requiring advanced respiratory treatment, 39% were obese, compared to 25% who had a healthy weight. Of those needing basic respiratory support, 37% were obese. Again, 25% had a healthy weight.

Further studies in the UK, New York, and China have also suggested an association between obesity and the coronavirus, and are being looked at by British ministers and experts.

A study by the Coronavirus Clinical Characterisation Consortium of people hospitalised with the virus in Britain found that the risk of death was 37% higher in obese patients.

Another study in New York found that severely obese people were six times more likely to be hospitalised with COVID-19. Obese people were four times more likely.

A study in China found that people with obesity could be three times more likely to develop severe pneumonia.

According to a report published by the Italian National Institute of Health, a study on a small sample of COVID-19 patients found that obesity was an underlying condition in some of those under the age of 50 who died, but the report doesn't draw any conclusions either way.

SAGE scientists are exploring potential “mechanisms” that could show a causal relationship between obesity and having more severe symptoms of COVID-19, including the potential for the increased inflammatory response in obese people to exacerbate symptoms of the virus.

Sources familiar with SAGE’s work stressed to BuzzFeed News that there was currently not sufficient evidence to prove that obesity itself resulted in increased mortality, and that more research needed to be done. They said that severely obese people are often likely to have other comorbidities that could be responsible for any worse symptoms.

Older people, men, black and Asian people, and those from socially deprived backgrounds were also seeing worse outcomes, the ICNARC data showed."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 05 May 20 - 03:08 PM

it is now being reported that SAGE got documents today showing that false negatives and false positives will be a problem. It should not exactly be news to them as I first pointed out the problem here on 24 Apr 20 - 03:34 AM, and it was not great insight of mine: it is basic stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:02 PM

Ah, I forgot to include ‘victim-blamer’ in that list of nauseatingly-unpleasant character-defects.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 02:00 PM

Note to Iains: I don't include you in this and I've no desire to waste my time reading anything you post so save yourself the effort.

You   obviously do, otherwise why   comment???

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:53 PM

And of the deaths, how many were fat with otherwise big health problems, how many were boozers with big health problems, how many were smokers with big health problems, how many simply refused to comply with distancing rules????

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:47 PM

I regard 30,000 deaths, with no foreseeable end to the ever-rising toll, as very good cause for doom and gloom. Who but a hard-hearted, soulless monster wouldn’t?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:36 PM

The question we have to ask Bonzo is would there be less gloom and doom had the government responded differently. It has been suggested that this is the case and thus the government should be held responsible for some, not all, of the deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:25 PM

So much doom and gloom. Isn't their a table for those who have recovered?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 05 May 20 - 01:23 PM

So now it's been announced that the UK has the highest number of deaths from Corona virus in Europe.

I wonder if our supporters of the present government consider that they could have dealt with the situation in such a way that some of these deaths could have been avoided.



Note to Iains: I don't include you in this and I've no desire to waste my time reading anything you post so save yourself the effort.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 10:32 AM

"In this game there is no such thing as checkmate."
There shouldn't be but unfortunately when your points are ignored and stonewalled you are reduced to just posting what you believe to be true to whoever is interested and just accept that those you address your arguments to have no answer
Not a satisfactory way to debate but a victory of logic of sorts
Would that things were different
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Donuel
Date: 05 May 20 - 08:27 AM

Iains already declared game, set, match. Yet the beat goes on?
In this game there is no such thing as checkmate.
Should we wish for a checkmate?
In 1349 not even a 60%
death rate pandemic
defeated England.
England won.

Who wins now?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 08:21 AM

I am now getting messages from Gmail asking me if I would like to send a reminder to the person I wrote to a few weeks earlier that they haven't replied yet
Worth a book if George Orwell hadn't pipped us all at the post seventy years ago
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:36 AM

The United Kingdom last had compulsory national identity cards during the Second World War when they were introduced for security purposes. They were introduced under the the National Registration Act 1939, but were abandoned seven years after the end of that war, in 1952, amid widespread public resentment.
Labour made an attempt to reintroduce ID cards but the incoming Tory government repealed the legislation.
Any further attempts to introduce compulsion will e met with the same resistance.
As "The Prisoner said":
I will not make any deals with you. I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:26 AM

Mac
The exitance of other forms of information gathering, from internet gathering, mobile phone and computer tracking and commonplace street and inside cameras, along with recorded information, from councils, the police, Social services, MI5, Supermarkets... et al, virtually renders the carrying of identity cards irrelevant - here certainly - more so in the US
Things once invented about the old Soviet Union during The Clod War are and a part of everyday life in 'The Free West' for a long time
Nowadays, you can't wipe your arse without some official somewhere knowing which hand you used
Too late to worry about it now, I'm afraid

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 05 May 20 - 07:25 AM

You appear not to want to defend her behaviour but to use it to denigrate the British people ???????????????????????????????????????