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BS: UK thread, Politics and political
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 20 - 07:16 AM As is a reply to her tendcy towards fascism - apparently Mussolini made Italy's trains run on time until he and his lover were strung up to a lamp-post by the Italian people Hitler was beloevd by the German people until he was forced to take a cyanide pill in bunker in Berlin You missed a bit out of yyour quote, by the way - it continues: By her third term, she was displaying a worsening stridency and even irrationality, vividly reflected in stubborn adherence to the poll tax when its unpopularity was manifest, and in her opposition to German reunification. Such behaviour caused her downfall. None of which alters the facts about her fascism, of course You appear not to want to defend her behaviour but to use it to denigrate the British people Game, set and match, I thing Over and out Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 05 May 20 - 06:41 AM “Thatcher was Britain’s most important politician of the postwar era, her only rival for that title being Clement Attlee, creator of the welfare state. Her critics forget or ignore just how parlous was the state of Britain in 1979, and offer no credible policy alternatives about how the country could have been saved from union tyranny, hugely inefficient and loss-making state-owned industries, the stagnation of enterprise. Her contribution to making Britain once more a viable proposition is almost impossible to overstate" |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 05 May 20 - 06:36 AM I was having a discussion earlier today. The topic for debate is "The new app for coronavirus tracing will develop into an electronic version of a government ID card and be used for such purposes well after the virus threat has been reduced to a low level or eliminated." Thoughts, please, especially on why this will not happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 20 - 06:24 AM Having established exactly what Thatcher stood for beyond question I'm delighted to find that Iains and I have now reached mutula agreement on at least this Those are the values of the present incumbent in Number 10 and those are the inbred values of the Tory Party - I have little doubt that they are also Iains's own values as he refuses to condemn them or even acknowledge their importance An excellent way to start today's discussion I refuse to believe they they are the values of the British people, but I'm prepared to consider any argument https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html THATCHER'S TAKE on DEMOCRACY Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Steve Shaw Date: 05 May 20 - 06:10 AM Which proves that troll posts don't necessarily have to be in the shape of personal attacks. Infantile provocation is no better, in m'humble... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 05 May 20 - 05:48 AM Thatcher pin up girl of the tories. The 7th longest serving PM of all time. Still the most popular party in the UK and has driven labour to virtual extinction. A job well done I would say. Now we have the mighty Boris leading us even further away from the scorched earth labour wastelands. He is ever more popular in the polls whereas starmer the charmer is ever declining in popularity,and this is still his honeymoon period. Does not bode well for labour! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 20 - 05:38 AM Oh - and does she represent "the avarage Tory's pin-up girls I would love a "yes" to that one - Nigel, Stanron Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 20 - 05:37 AM Thatcher befriended a proven mass murders, fought to prevent him being tried for his horrific crimes and described him, because of his actions in Chile as "a hero of democracy" - those facts on Thatcher's 'love affair' with a facist dictator have never been disputed, then or since, even by her own party - the leaders of which allowed themselves to be herded into a Westminster Hall draped in crossed Chilean and British flags, to pay tribute to this monstrous thug, finally dropped her like a piece of hot shit and left British humanitarians with one of the fondest memories ever FONDEST MEMORIES EVER The actions Thatcher described as "democratic" were, to overthrow a legally elected and popular government, to murder its leader, to round up many thousands of mainly students and young workers and herd them into Santaigo Stadium where they were tortured and murdered in their uncountable thousands The young women were all systematically raped, many of them were sexually disfigured with knives and bayonets before having their throats cut The many thousand dead were never fully counted as most of them became "the great disappeared" - still remembered and mourned in Chile Folk singer, Victor Jara was indentified as such, singled out and had his hands crushed by a rifle butt, before being murdered There - but for the grace of what remained of common decency in the Tory Party, would have gone Thatcher's "Democratic Britain" (try visualising defiant miners in place of Chilean students) Can there possibly ne anybody here who disputes any of that - or who regrets the passing of the threat of Thatcher's "democracy" being foisted on Britain - any takers ?? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 05 May 20 - 04:47 AM The average tory thought thatcher was the best thing sice sliced bread. She should have a statue in every town and the miracles she performed with the british economy should gain her a sainthood. All hail the mighty thatcher! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 05 May 20 - 04:11 AM "I've always admired Tony Blair, and can't quite understand why there's so much disdain for him among UK Mudcatters." Not just mMdcatters He like Thatcher, Enoch Powell and others became an embarrassment to their parties and despised by the people for their having lied and conned their wat to the top Blair (B-liar) lied about weapons of mass destruction and involved Britain in an oil war that continues to destabalise the planet Tories make a big thing of him being 'Labour' (see immediately above) bt, while he may have started his political life with socialist, he gradually becamme a career politician, swung sharp right and out Toried the worst aspects of the Tories 'New Labour' was to Labour ideals as 'National Socialism' was to the real socialism of providing a better life and equality of the People as a whole - a hi-jacking of a title - In some way as genuinely democratic as your own 'Democrats' (look up the true meaning of the term) "why else would you be a Tory MP?" Money !!! Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Backwoodsman Date: 05 May 20 - 04:10 AM Joe, I think you’ll find that most dislike him because of his support for the second Gulf War - y’know, Dubya, the ‘Weapons of Mass Destruction‘ lie, etc. - and also because he veered away from what are regarded as true Socialist principles - by introducing university tuition fees, advancing John Major’s PFI initiative in the NHS, and the sale of half of our gold reserves when the market price was at rock-bottom, etc. But what Blair had was wide public appeal - whether the hard-lefties like it or not, his personality was a major factor in making Labour electable. People liked ‘our mate Tony’ and Labour’s main problem now is that, in these days of ‘Personality-Politics’, they have no-one with the personal appeal to compete with the image that the Conservative propaganda-machine has managed to falsely create around Johnson, persuading former Labour-voters that a philandering, xenophobic, racist serial-liar, controlled by a sociopathic ‘unelected bureaucrat’ with little dress-sense or interest in personal grooming, is ‘a great guy’, and ‘one of the lads’. Until Labour find a leader with the same kind of appeal that Blair brought to the party back in the ‘90s - someone who can control the hard-left, make sense of the ‘policy-diarrhœa’ of the last two general elections, and slay the nonsensical ‘Antisemitism’ dragon - I’m afraid they will have to resign themselves to being a (currently very weak) opposition. Sadly, there doesn’t seem to be anyone amongst the hierarchy with the appropriate attributes, which cannot be good for our politics |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 05 May 20 - 03:35 AM Bliar Blair lied to the British people. Sexed up dossiers on weapoms of mass destruction were on his watch. Nothing less than a pack of lies to justify an illegal war. He also has to answer questions on the death of Doctor David Kelly, an internationally recognised expert on WMD who held very different views on the potential threat and readiness of the Iraqi Forces compared to Blair Even members of his own party despise Blair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: The Sandman Date: 05 May 20 - 02:05 AM joe. could be his support for the iraq war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Joe Offer Date: 04 May 20 - 09:08 PM Somebody told me today that liberal Democrats in the U.S. would be considered conservative in the U.K. - and that's something I've heard here over and over again. You mean, like U.S. Democrats are like Tories? Like Boris Johnson? Seems to me, Boris Johnson and Trump could be twin brothers. And Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan could have been womb-mates. I've always admired Tony Blair, and can't quite understand why there's so much disdain for him among UK Mudcatters. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Steve Shaw Date: 04 May 20 - 08:35 PM He's an arse, that's for sure. But what Tory MP isn't? I mean, why else would you be a Tory MP? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 01:11 PM NASTY PIECE OF WORK - TYPICAL of OUR GLORIOUS LEADERS Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 12:56 PM Conor Burns has had to resign his position as Minister of State for Trade Policy All of the people on this and similar threads probably follow politics a lot more closely than the average UK citizen, but I have to admit my first reaction was: Conor Burns? Who is that? What, Minister? Trade Policy? How is he so anonymous? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Raggytash Date: 04 May 20 - 12:39 PM It would seem that Pitri Patel is not alone in employing bullying tactics to get her own way. Conor Burns has had to resign his position as Minister of State for Trade Policy after using House of Commons notepaper to support his fathers dispute over a loan. It is reported he made "veiled threats" I wonder if his actions will be condemned by all on here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 12:34 PM Personal attack - wot me ? Can't find it so I presume the accusation wa deleted I certainly made none intentionally here Worth reminding people that the Communist Party remains a legal organisation in Britain (and will continue to be while it remains as inept and as harmless as it has been for a long time) Guido, on the other hand, is a convicted criminal blogger with connections to extremist organisations on the fringes of the law and a reputation for supporting fanatical mass murderers of Norwegian extraction Just thought I'd mention it Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 May 20 - 11:04 AM I believed Jim was referring to Aaron Banks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Doug Chadwick Date: 04 May 20 - 10:57 AM Seems to be a direct personal attack on me! How else can it be read? I read it as a simple mistake by Jim when copying and pasting the date. His post, immediately before yours, at 4:15 AM, is the one that made the reference to the case. DC |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 10:53 AM Just noticed in a live feed that: … Michie, who is also a member of the Scientific Pandemic Influenza group on behaviour, which feeds into the official government Sage... That's the Professor Michie, the one with 40 year membership of the Communist Party, you know. So she is clearly acceptable to the Government as a source of advice via SPI-B, with or without Guido's approval. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 09:50 AM Indeed, RD. I hope things work out for you. It is a tough time all round, but likely to get a lot tougher, I fear. I was thinking about another small business nearby. They are a costume-hire company, and something like three quarter of their trade is to individuals attending themed parties, and the remaining quarter to amateur (or occasionally professional) acting companies. Any amateur group performing a play set in historical times within about 70 miles is likely to visit them or one or other of a small number of competitors. They are not your typical high street fancy dress company selling plastic throw aways - they have a number of the original Star Wars costumes for example, costing hundreds to hire. If the lock down doesn't end with a vaccine that people trust, who is throwing those parties? If am-dram can't perform, they won't be hiring. And in any case, do you fancy wearing something that others have been wearing for hours, even after extensive cleaning? I can't see they will survive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 09:31 AM Happy to talk to you anywhere Weer - you can find reference to his caase here 30 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM A further clue HERE It should be remembered that the feller attacking the police was the one claiming they were't doing their duty when a friend attacked an innocent bystander at a swimming pool the same feller supported a perition when the same thug was jailed for interfering with the course of a trial At a tiime like this, the last thing we need is the undermining of the credibility of the forces of law and order, let alone calling for them to be sued at a time when Britain is probably about to enter a financial slump Sorry - didn't really want to pursue this Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: weerover Date: 04 May 20 - 08:59 AM You haven't told me who the "villain" is, Jim. If you don't want to name names here, you can PM me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Rain Dog Date: 04 May 20 - 08:56 AM Indeed it is not going to be easy DMcG and I don't envy anyone who has to decide on how to go about it. I am still working myself though the situation is not looking too good. Hopefully I will have a job for another few months at least. I work alone in the office 4 days a week. Walking to work each day I pass all the closed shops and wonder how it will ever be economic for them to restart trading if the social distancing remains in force. The job furlough scheme is only set to run until the end of June at the moment. If it ends then I can see a lot of people being laid off from work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 08:40 AM Guido has dug out the background of the alternative SAGE as expected a bunch of lefty troublemakers. We wil start with just two: Chair: Sir David King https://order-order.com/2020/05/04/not-independent-activist-stuffed-shadow-sage/ I wonder how much their hot air will add to global warming? You know, adding comments like 'leftie troublemakers' could be construed as flame bait or even trolling. Just saying... |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 08:14 AM Nightingale Hospital will be put on "standby" status from tomorrow, which underlines how serious this threat remains - not an ""opinion" echoed or otherwise - a fact There can be no thought of easing the restrictions while such a situation exists "'let off the hook' villain" Been there, done that - he's one of many that stretch back decades in this 'old boy' society that protects their own Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM Reclaiming sovereignty seems to be gaining in popularity. What future for Schengen now? https://unherd.com/2020/05/how-covid-19-is-hardening-our-borders/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups[0]=18743&tl_period_type=3 |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: weerover Date: 04 May 20 - 07:39 AM Jim, Who is the "our latest 'let off the hook' villain who escaped for lack of evidence"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 07:32 AM Our leaders are straing at the leash to lift restrictions, against the aadvive of the experts, because business has begun to crack the whipO Are you merely voicing an opinion or do you have facts to substantiate your allegations? Those are very serious charges against the democratically elected government. It would presume the tail is wagging the dog. I do not think Mr Cummins would stand for that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 07:31 AM "Lots of businesses are going to be affected by this shutdown" Nowhere near as the dead ther will be if this becomes a "rush to judgement" RD Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 07:30 AM That may or may not be so, Rain Dog. But if so, the statement needs to be "The Government has decided that is how to balance the competing interests" not "we are following the scientific advice." Ending the lock down is no simple matter. Unless the public actually believe it to be safe, they may voluntarily stay locked down, to a substantial extent. There is no point opening restaurants, for example, if people don't feel safe going to them. In fact, it will probably cause them to fail, as - probably - the government support via furlough etc will come to an end, and insufficient customers return to make the restaurant viable. Remember every restaurant in the country has a certain number of tables and a planned occupancy. If you reduce the number of tables there may not be enough capacity even if the restaurant is full to cover all the costs. If the occupancy also goes down the business model is wrecked. A local restaurant has sold vouchers for £100 which will buy £150s worth when they reopen. Good to keep them operating during the shut down, but yet another cost to cover when they reopen. And that is just restaurants. You could make a similar case for lots of other venues, small businesses and groups. When the lock down ends, I will happily go to visit sites like RSPB Arne. Going to a cinema is another matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Rain Dog Date: 04 May 20 - 07:18 AM The government do need to be looking at relaxing the restrictions. There is a need for people to get back to work. Lots of businesses are going to be affected by this shutdown. It is not going to be a quick or easy return to work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Rain Dog Date: 04 May 20 - 07:15 AM You might want to look at that thread again Jim. Simple typo |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 06:12 AM I see a thread has been opened which described the isolation of children as possible virus carriers as "ageist" for crying out loud Who let Donald Trump onto this forum - his tweets get everywhere Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 06:09 AM "But there’s not much evidence of that coming to fruition in the foreseeable future." And there never will be if some people have their way I think this virus wil hopefully bring out a clear view of what happens when incompetent and elitist people are given a free hand Our leaders are straing at the leash to lift restrictions, against the aadvive of the experts, because business has begun to crack the whip The workers at the front haven't yet got the protection equipment they need or the testing facilities necessary to cope with the present situation - never the possibility of an increase in casualties should this massive leap in the dark be forced through Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 05:47 AM The goveerment had deliberately ecluded the opposition from anything that happens - Covit, Brexit - anything First one has to find the opposition! They seek him here, they seek him there................. There is no opposition. We have the hard left, the soft left, the don't know left and the militants, and even they have split. What we have is splinters splintering. Even a vivid imagination cannot construct an oppositionn out of that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 05:37 AM His background is chemistry anyway Maybe he is a good facilitator! |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 05:26 AM DMcG Iam afraid we willhave to disagree. The proposer for this alternative body is a former Labour chief scientific officer. Try to convince me his motivees are entirely altruistic. I ain't buying into it. Chief meddler is how I view him. One set of experts is quite enough.His background is chemistry anyway - nowt to do with epidemiology or medicine. About as useful as bringing a brain surgeon to the meeting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Backwoodsman Date: 04 May 20 - 05:23 AM ”The the sooner a well-organised opposition to that gets their act together, the better for British democracy“ Agreed, Jim. But there’s not much evidence of that coming to fruition in the foreseeable future. And if by some miracle it does, the Conservative Smear-Machine will swing in to action, along with their Three-Word-Slogan-Writer, in order to turn the heads of the easily-distracted and feeble-minded amongst us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 05:02 AM The goveerment had deliberately ecluded the opposition from anything that happens - Covit, Brexit - anything To attempt to quash any form of opposition, organised or otherwise, would be tantabountt to dicatorship led b an elite and controlled by an non-elected advisor with the power to frog-march anyone who opposes them off the premises The the sooner a well-organised opposition to that gets their act together, the better for British democracy Jim Caarroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 04:50 AM I think my previous post gives a good example of how you separate the two. But I dispute the assertion it was set up to oppose. It is set up to independently review the data. The government's conclusion is an amalgamation of the scientific, the business and the political advice. That is their right, and it is their duty to do so. All this group does is give a clearer picture of the scientific part of the advice. That means the government will need to say 'our decision is' rather than 'we are following the science.' In short, the new group is not opposing the government at all: it is simply encouraging government to accept its role in the decision making rather than passing the buck to SAGE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 04:19 AM DMcG How do you separate the politics from the science when the body is deliberately set up to be in opposition to the government? Do the two bodies have the same objective? If not they are in opposition. If not in opposition, why duplicate? |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 04:12 AM Having looked a little more at the areas the alternative SAGE (Parsley?) will be looking at, one will be tracking applications. I think we can make a clear scientific and political distinction there. Apple, Google, and the EU all favour a decentralised database mechanism: no body has access to all the data. The UK government favours a centralised one, where it has access to all the data (and the potential market value of that is high), but they promise they will not take advantage of that. Technically, both approaches work. So on scientific grounds, they are virtually equivalent. Politically they are very different. So I would expect the alternative SAGE to be examining how to make it work, what the effects of a 50/60/70/80 percent take up is and so forth. I would not expect them to be focusing on the centralised-decentralised question except in so far as it affects take-up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: DMcG Date: 04 May 20 - 03:58 AM t I would want to see the political affiliations of the members highlighted alongside their qualifications. In short, you want it to be seen as a political group, not a scientific one, because then you can claim the arguments are being made on political grounds? No, the political affiliations are not relevant. The test of the quality of their conclusions must be in the transparency of their minutes and reporting. When they reach a conclusion that the R value is still above 1, for example, they need to show on what basis the yconclude that. It is not relevant if they are a Union representative or a Conservative Lord ennobled for his scientific contributions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 03:50 AM Must do something about this keyboard :-) Jim |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Jim Carroll Date: 04 May 20 - 03:48 AM Maybe it should become mandatory for all those speaking on behalf of Government policy to reveal all the detains of their business connections and investment interests before being allowed to speak publicly on anything that they might benefit from ? Now that should put a few fussy cats among the pigeons, when you remember the Hamltons and our latest 'let off the hook' villain who escaped for lack of evidence In a democratic society, political views should never be a cause for anybody being allowed to speak publicly unless those views are publicly offensive or break the law of the land I really can't remember anything in Labour policy being offensive to anybody other than the super-rich and to date, kit is still perfectly legal to want to make the world a better place for all Long may that continue to be the case "Useless leftie crap continues!!" I take it the mods have noted this and will live up to their stated intentions? Jim Carroll
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 03:36 AM DMcG The idea may have merit as an alternative sounding board but I wouldwant to see the political affiliations of the members highlighted alonside their qualifications. Question Time and Panorama are but two BBC programs breaking the BBC charter by omitting the labour activist background of certain of their interviewed "experts" I suspct this latest wheeze is more of the same designed to contradict the government view and merely ending up totally confusing the public. A very bad idea and political mischief making of the highst order. |
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Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political From: Iains Date: 04 May 20 - 03:27 AM Hardly a conspiracy theory, prescience perhaps. However it makes Mr Cummins ideally suited to tease out a way forward from a team of experts on covid-19 lockdown. Perhaps we should let him loose on the Electoral Commission next. They seem to have been wrong on every turn in recent times, from Russian collusion to breaking electoral spending rules. Every windmill they tilted at ended up in losing and humiliation. Totally unfit for purpose. https://thecritic.co.uk/remains-media-blob-complex/ Next we have the outcome of Banks suing Guardian journalist Carole Cadwalladr to look forward to. We shall see again who is telling the porkies! |