BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:51 AM

well, steve - i reckon his name is probably Ian (and i'm sure it isn't Turnip to be fair) apart from when he is opening another thread in an assumed name.   but you are right. i'm away off for a bit now and it is because of Ian - not the other good people on here, like yourself.    


If you are going to make accusations best you provide the eveidence as well. Otherweise what does that make you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:31 AM

PM sent, Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:13 AM

Yes, I know, but it was ‘above the salt’ in the Music section, wasn’t it? GUEST: postings are permitted there, but not in BS.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:06 AM

hi BWM -a thread appeared the other day in a name i used to have as Guest: petecockermouth.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 07:00 AM

well, steve - i reckon his name is probably Ian (and i'm sure it isn't Turnip to be fair) apart from when he is opening another thread in an assumed name.   but you are right. i'm away off for a bit now and it is because of Ian - not the other good people on here, like yourself.

i don't think we have ever managed to have a reasonable discussion on here about eg 'different directions on the left and how best to pursue more progressive politics' -it's not a lot to ask but it's been impossible. ian has bored and insulted his way through everything and has proven to have more energy than the rest of us. i've tried various tactics - including ignoring him as we all have - but we can't get rid of him and the mods clearly have no wish to. i wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that adverts have started to appear within the threads? in itself another reason to go - but where to?

sorry - i'm not doing a very good job of staying off this thread eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:48 AM

Works - can’t be done, the BS section is closed to non-members, so posting as, for instance, ‘GUEST: Backwoodsman’ is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:43 AM

dave - i was talking to my wife yesterday and telling her about the endless squabbles, arguments, accusations and trolling on here. 'why do you go on then?' tricky question. i think i have tried in various ways to have a friendly discussion about politics (i'm just reminded of a Father Ted episode that begins with Ted dreaming about having a learned theological discussion with a couple of other intelligent and amusing priests- then he wakes up and finds he's still with Jack and Dougal and Mrs Doyle) anyway - i would like to give your idea a go . Something keeps drawing me back to this car crash. but i will try....

but before i do i would like to know if someone was to open a thread in another poster's name would that constitute good reason to ban them from the site? or is this fraud acceptable on Mudcat? if so, why?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 06:37 AM

If we are ever are going to refer to him, let's use his name. I'm sick of stuff like "usual suspects" or "cabal" or "old men" that tends to put us into "is it I, Lord?" mode.   We are talking about IAINS. Yep, the less we mention him the better. But let's always use his name. Over and out...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:16 AM

Sorry, bastard HTML, Buggered the underlining, but the message is still clear.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 05:15 AM

Jesus fucking wept! It’s like watching ‘Groundhog Day’, but without the comedy!

Discussion is fine, it’s what we come here for isn’t it? But insults and provocation, and reacting to insults and provocation are not discussion. When one individual posts insulting and provocative stuff - name calling, ‘Whataboutery’, comparing black, overweight Labour politicians to a hippopotamus, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera - the only worthwhile answer is to ignore the post. If you react, you lower yourself to the level of the person who insults and tries to provoke you - you’re not ‘dealing with the problem’, you’re becoming part of the problem.

When YKW starts his Insulting and provocative nonsense, for fuck’s sake do the intelligent thing, and ignore him. If you don’t react, if you don’t join in with his idiocy, guess what - you can’t legitimately be be blamed!

It’s easy - I’ve done it for some time now - and believe me, it’s truly liberating!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM

" The wreckers have not won"
If ou do they have Dave - what they want is not to have what is happening discussed
All the subjects you mention can and should be discussed - it's up to those who care about them to make sure rationally - they are never going to be dalt with in friendly manner - that's the nature of pre-Brexit/Trump Britain and America
Stop discussing them and you fall behind what's happening daily
It's a choice for the individual, of course
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 04:19 AM

Does anyone else get fed up of this? I know the Americans do although it beats my why they come on a UK politics thread.

Basically, someone criticises the Tories. The response is Labour would do no better. It is pointed out that Labour have not been in power for 10 years. Antisemitism rears its head. Accusations of racism start to fly. Someone tries to make a sensible point. Insults and propaganda abound. The thread is closed.

Well, I have a radical new idea. From today, for two weeks, I am taking myself out of politics. This is not capitulation. The wreckers have not won. If we all (you know who you are) withdraw for a while, the wreckers have nothing to wreck. The cause of all the trouble becomes obvious. And at least we get a couple of weeks peace :-)

Who's with me?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:34 PM

's ok, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:18 PM

The old ones are the best! :-) ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:01 PM

Sorry Dave. I didn't read it properly first time.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM

Apparently a vicar who .....

Never set any store on information that starts with "Apparently".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 01:44 PM

"Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial"
Any discussion of Labour, Lib-dems, Greens..... is immaterial in today's politics - a diversion away from the **** ups,

NOPE!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 12:47 PM

Apparently a vicar who injected himself with Domestos has died. His family are sueing Trump for a bleach of the priest.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 12:15 PM

So at today's press conference Stephen Powis (National Medical Director of NHS England) was asked directly what questions Cummings asked at SAGE meetings, and responded by saying how had a lot of eminent scientists on it. But did not mention Cummings.

So the follow up question again asked about Cumming's questions, and again he avoided even mentioning Cummings.


I m sure he was doing as advised, but he has just demonstrated that SAGE is not politically independent. And in doing so, he has undermined any claim that the government is making to following the best scientific advice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 09:59 AM

Homeopathy, a word which NHS doctors for whom we all clap on a Thursday scorn full sore, may have something for the Coronavirus.

Nah, Bonz, this is even better than Homeopathy:


Cristina Cuomo revealed that she took Clorox baths and used vitamin drips, among other things, to try to speed up her recovery.

Cuomo also detailed how she took bleach baths, adding "½ cup ONLY of Clorox" to her regular baths to help "combat the radiation and metals in my system and oxygenate it."

"We want to neutralize heavy metals because they slow-up the electromagnetic frequency of our cells, which is our energy field, and we need a good flow of energy," she wrote.

See Also:

https://thepuristonline.com/2020/04/the-cuomos-corona-protocol-week-3/

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

It's just been announced that the helpline for essential Covit workers that was opened again this morning closed within a couple of hours due to being unable to respond to requests
The only few left are in Scotland
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 03:06 AM

Well yes, Jim - as I said in my post of 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM, it’s diversionary horse-shit and barely worth a response. I won’t be wasting any more Mudcat server-space, or my own time, Responding to or even thinking about his childish, lightweight diversion-tactics.

Over and out (unless or until something worthwhile comes up).

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:59 AM

Are my eyes deceiving me Baccie or are you giving the individual "The fresh air of publicity" :-)
It gets to the best if you take your eyes off the ball
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:55 AM

"Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial"
Any discussion of Labour, Lib-dems, Greens..... is immaterial in today's politics - a diversion away from the **** ups,   
Britain is now basically ruled over by a trio of ruthless sickos - Johnson the Brainless, 'Mad Maggie Patel' and the unelected Dom Scummings - they even cast aside any of they own collegues who don't measure DOWN to their own level like sacrificed chess-pieces   - nobody else has a say in what happens in today's Crisis Britan - hence the trail of devastation, tardiness and mistakes in tackling the crisis
What better tactic than to focus the attention on people outside this 'Circle of Friends'
The opinions of medical experts who are suggesting heads have to roll and the culprits having to be made answerable, or those front line "moaners" demanding decent protective equipment plastic bags some of them have been forced to wear - all marginalised with pie-in-the-sky promises instead of the or just simply ignored
Let' talk about Labour instead - just like "It was the last Labour Government wot dunnit
Even the Tories have abandoned the pretense of principles with a series of putsches and one particular 'Night of the Long Knives'
Pity Brecht isn't still around to write a follow-up to 'The Resistible Rise of Arturo Ui'
Dangerous days on all fronts
The only people to be discussing here is The Twisted Trio
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Apr 20 - 02:42 AM

”Troll alert. As ever.“

When does he ever do anything else, Steve. At least he seems to be eschewing the personal insults at the moment (‘poor loser’ really doesn’t even register on the Richter-Scale of Abuse AFAIC).

It just strikes me as very strange that someone who celebrates the Conservative majority with posts like, ”It will be a cold day in hell before labour takes the reins again, and that gives me a warm toasty feeling inside!”, is so concerned with what Labour might or might not have done if they were in power right now. FWIW, and from a pragmatic POV, I agree with him, but ‘what Labour would have done‘ is of absolutely no consequence, they have no power - not even as an opposition, because their numbers in parliament are insufficient for there to be any possibility of defeating the government in a vote - so dragging that red-herring out at every available opportunity is pointless, and not even worthy of a response.

When he’s not quoting ‘Seaman’ Staines, or deceitfully C&P-ing pieces without accreditation in order to make it look like his own words, he’s a real lightweight.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Mossback
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:14 PM

Homeopathy... may have something for the Coronavirus.


Absolutely.

Also Scientology, Flat-Earthism, Anti-Vaxxers and the "5G Causes Covid 19" crew.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 07:09 PM

Troll alert. As ever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:47 PM

As you take such orgasmic delight in reminding us, they lost the General Election and Johnson’s Tories have a majority of 81, which renders them unchallengeable.So put a sock in the diversionary horse-shit.

Obviously a poor loser! I should get used to the idea. It will be a cold day in hell before labour takes the reins again, and that gives me a warm toasty feeling inside!.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM

What anybody **thinks** Labour might, or might not, have done is totally immaterial. As you take such orgasmic delight in reminding us, they lost the General Election and Johnson’s Tories have a majority of 81, which renders them unchallengeable.So put a sock in the diversionary horse-shit.

Everything that happens since the GE is Johnson’s problem. He wanted it, he got it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 05:07 PM

To have a "senior" spin doctor on a committee can only lead to people questioning the independence of that committee.

The scientists are appointed to provide the governments with the best advise possible given current knowledge.

Having the likes of Cummings and Ben warner on a Scientific Advisory Group can only undermine the publics perception of the advice.

It is not time to play politics with information like this.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:56 PM

There is no system that is perfect and trying to get a consencus off a room full of experts is the stuff of dreams. So far thegovernment approch seems to be correct as far as lockdown is concerned.I would take issue with heathrow and ferries still allowing suipposedly unfettered access. The issue with PPE is by no means unique to britain, neither is the issue of test reliability. Frequency of testing may be a valis criticism.Not knowing all the facts I cannot comment. I think trying toplay a political blame game at this juncture is wasteful. Analysisof what couldhave been is for a later time. When every action is to a large extent on the fly having the opposition party pointing fingers and the media let loose as attack dogs serves no purpose. This is not a dress rehersal and mistakes cost lives. Personally I find the media behaviour at the daily press conferance an embarassment. The media are there purely to question and report not behave as media stars seekin "gotcha" moments. This behaviour will almost certainly lose the BBC its taxpayer funding once the dust settles. If the government has made mistakes they will inevitably be found out. I have no reason not to believe that if an action is found to be wrong then it will be rectified. There are simply too many flapping mouths for any kind of secret to be kept.
Do you seriously think Labour would not have reacted in a broadly similar way?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:52 PM

Bloody good question, ABCD...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:37 PM

For how long did they listen to you?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:33 PM

Others views may differ, but the accounts we have heard of Dominic Cummings do not suggest he would be a good facilitator, since a key part of being a facilitator is giving everyone a chance to express their views, whether you agree or not, and then getting the group to reach an agreement using their skills, again whether you agree with their conclusion or not.   That does not sound like a pen picture of Cummings.

But again, what is the desired outcome? This is a scientific group charged with giving the best possible scientific advice. If the facilitator is trying to ensure the recommended outcome is politically acceptable, it is not achieving its outcome. So if you have to have a facilitor, to meet the outcome, you need someone outside the political bodies.   As with justice being seen to be done as well as being done, the scientific advice needs to be demonstrably free from political bias. This is especially true if the government is relying on the 'following the best scientific advice' defence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 04:07 PM

MPs, if a person was to genralize, have humanity degrees. This is not the best background for making judgement calls on scientific data. Having a spad like Dominic Cummins to reach to the nitty gritty is invaluable. Several oil companies I worked for brought in facilitators to bring a focus to specific problems and their solution. Their function can be summarised thus:
    Design and plan the group process, and select the tools that best help the group progress towards that outcome.
    Guide and control the group process to ensure that the above objectives are met.
    Ensure that outcomes, actions and questions are properly recorded and actioned, and appropriately dealt with afterwards.(ie lead the "lessons learnt" process)
I would see the role of Dominic Cummins as being broadly comparable to that of a facilitator. One single person able to bring a focus to disparate threads and guide/control the decision making process.
The few facilitators I encountered were geeky and super smart.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:59 PM

I see the Guardian is reporting that Dominic Cummings is a member of the SAGE group, which is supposed to be giving independent scientific advice to the government.

I am sure some will dismiss it just because the Guardian is reporting it, but let's take a wider question. Is it ever appropriate than a political appointee with no scientific background at all is able to influence the conclusions of the group, and if so when? If the government were to confirm he is an appointee, would you be comfortable? And if he is not, under what conditions would you think it appropriate he become a member?

Note that anything equivalent to "anyone the PM decides to appoint can be a member" is not answering the question.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:36 PM

Sorry for the misformating. Can someone take the italics off after "questin" please?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:29 PM

I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.

Are you, Iains? Or are you just so daft as not to see a statement disguised as a question to cover your own arse?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 01:14 PM

Homeopathy, a word which NHS doctors for whom we all clap on a Thursday scorn full sore, may have something for the Coronavirus.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 11:19 AM

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 20 - 10:46 PM
. . .
My question to kick off this new thread..
News headline this morning:
"Essential workers and families to get tests"..
So, does that include my Teacher wife and me...???

Contrary to ABCD's immediate response, if your wife is a teacher she is included in the new testing regime (once the initial 'surge' on the availability settles down)
Details are on Gov.UK
That page mentions 'essential workers' and links to a list of Here where the list of essential workers includes:
List of essential workers and those prioritised for testing (England only)
. . .
education and childcare workers, including:
support and teaching staff
social workers
specialist education professionals

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM

From a Guardian article:

Caroline Criado-Perez, whose book "Invisible Women" addresses the issue of ill-fitting PPE for women in one of its chapters, said she has been inundated with messages from healthcare workers who could not find protective equipment to fit them.
“Respiratory protective equipment is designed for a male face, and if it doesn’t fit it won’t protect,” she said. “Because of a dearth of sex disaggregated data we don’t know how many women are affected, but I am hearing on a daily basis from women in the NHS who say they can’t get their masks to fit.”

===

As I have said before, getting PPE is not the only criteria. It needs to be PPE of the right size and much of it is not suitable for women.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:40 AM

there is a very good case for some form of PR in england/wales. the scottish government already has a functioning PR system, a much more reasonable and considerate parliamentary debate and a competent and responsive government. while only a handful of fptp MSPs are elected while the SNP is so popular, there are plenty of 'list MSPs' to ensure that minority voices are heard and considered in the chamber. i used to think that england should transfer to a similar system - but only after 3 terms of a competent democratic socialist government in the european model. but now - i'd go for PR tomorrow as a quick way to more sensible government. (though of course the liberals could mess this up as well with their relentless tory-lite approach) (d'oh!)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:36 AM

"Don't inject Lysol": maker of household cleaner hits back at Trump virus claim.

Trump Claim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:29 AM

I’m not surprised in the least, the evidence of people’s lack of judgement is clearly demonstrated in the results of the most recent US-Presidential, and UK-General, elections.


However it was the majority under both electoral systems elected the blond bombshells. The right are in the ascendency and you cannot do diddly squat to change anything. How very sad for you. It is the failing of democracy that the majority win and the minority lose. Claiming to have won the argument performed miracles at the polls for magic grandad, did it not?
His inferior party was smote mightily and cast into the wilderness while the winners cheered and celebrated an escape from a disaster.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:25 AM

In my last post horseshit got auto-corrected to horseshoe.

---

Fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:20 AM

”I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.“

I’m not surprised in the least, the evidence of people’s lack of judgement is clearly demonstrated in the results of the most recent US-Presidential, and UK-General, elections.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 09:00 AM

Instead putting out horseshit like this a responsible leader would just say "we're looking into alternate forms of treatment" and leave it at that. Some MAGA hat-wearing dimwit is probably chugging Lysol as we speak.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

My bad - I think you're right
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:54 AM

I am surprisd so many cannot distiguish between a statement and a question.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: gillymor
Date: 24 Apr 20 - 08:42 AM

He keeps swinging for the fences but he doesn't have a bat in his hands.