BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 08:30 AM

So you want the right just to repeat your matra without responding to the attacks this man has made on Party members and the reputation of the Labour party ?
This man is a right wing appeaser - there is no reason why he wont continue to sell his pary out to stay the king of tha castle
You appear to care less for the Labour Party than he does

You seem that the opinion of the Tory Party is worth more than that of the members
Please answer one single question
Does Labour have a serious problem with antisemitsm ?
Then at least we'll know where we stand on that one
As far as I'm concerned, if it does it has no right to clain to be what it does and not worth supporting as a party
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 07:25 AM

I repeat my earlier post, which Jim ignores because he wants to have a row with anybody who will take his bait - even a friend who has defended him many times over the years, and which Steve ignores because of his, admittedly admirable, loyalty to his pin-up girl...

“Unless the membership start to show some unity and loyalty to the leader, get over their factionism and divisions, and at least try to look like a party that knows where it’s going and how to get there, it wont make a scrap of difference who that leader is, there will still be a Tory government after the next election and into the foreseeable future after that. The LP will have thrown itself under the Tory Propaganda bus, and the members will have nobody to blame but themselves.“

And that, as they say, is it. Fall out amongst yourselves, I’m not biting.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

In my view Baccy is right. I see no point arguing with you, Jim and Steve, because we all know each other's positions and nothing feeds the Tory Propaganda Machine more effectively than arguing amongst ourselves, thereby ignoring Robert Jenrick's shady dealing and the rest.

Do we really want to copy the Life of Brian?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:52 AM

Baccie
Can you answer a simple question - you have refused to answer all the others
You are demanding loyalty for the Labour party

How loyal to it is to that party to allow its leader to smear the proud history of fighting antisemitism ?
Starmer has gone so far as to split the party, to appease all those 'Friends of Israel' and the right wing Blairites in order to gain poitical power
As far as I am concerned, it is par for the course that careere politicians lie Starmer sell pot party and fellow party members to climb the greasy pole
What upsets me most is the decent, intelligent people who claim to be 'progressives' and fair mined, who break their necks to get in line behind such behaviour

I ask again - what evidence is there that this woman is antisemitic, as Starmer claimed she was ?
Does anybody believe she was wrong when she supported Peake's statement ?
If the answer to either of these is negative, why is anybody backing such a leader - is that the behaviour you want presented as typical of your party ?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:41 AM

"To win the GE next time, the Populism of the Tories needs to be nullified."

What, by shutting up the lefties and leaving the Tory-lite establishment right of the party to it? I keep trying to tell you: it won't work.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:31 AM

Labour had plenty of ‘policies’ at the last election - in fact they had too many - but they lost by the biggest landslide in living memory, defeated by ‘Populism’, a cartoon-character Tory leader, a couple of three-word slogans, and a Propaganda assault,

A significant number of voters aren’t interested in reading and comparing manifestos, they fall for the cartoon-character, the slogans, and the propaganda - the 2019 is unarguable evidence of this fact.

A party can’t effect its policies unless it wins the GE.

To win the GE next time, the Populism of the Tories needs to be nullified.

Starmer knows this. You clearly don’t.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:30 AM

The antisemitism slur was perpetuated largely by people within the Labour Party. The pro-Israel lobby had their stooges in the party, and the Tories only had to provide the occasional nudge to keep the smears in the spotlight. I could name Ruth Smeeth and John Mann, who both deliberately orchestrated very public incidents, and the likes of Margaret Hodge, Louise Ellman and the long-term idiot Frank Field. These and others never missed an opportunity to loudly and publicly criticise Corbyn's approach to the supposed problem. They were like a walking Labour suicide note, but they didn't care: getting smashed by the Tories in an election was, to them, a small price to pay for evicting Corbynism from the party. All these people were on the right of the party. I'm sick of the blame for splits being put on the left. Left-wingers in the party are far more likely to be campaigners against racism and for equality. Ken Livingstone, for example, about as un-antisemitic as can be, hounded out by the likes of the above. The lefties in Labour don't cause splits. Splits are caused by the right trying to shame the left into silence. "We'll never be electable with you around, and we're going to keep shouting that from the rooftops..." . As I said, the left has always been a part of Labour and always will be. It's those on the right, such as the above and the Blairs and the Kinnocks of this world, who can't stomach that and who constantly try to mould the party in their own right-wing image. We've just seen Starmer perpetuating that tradition. If he thinks that it'll win him elections, he's deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:03 AM

We sould be voting for policies Baccie - not for "my paryy right ot wrong"
No - democracy says the party members should shouid the policies - what you are describing is Populism - winning votes using every trick in the book - like wot gave us Brexit
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 06:00 AM

'is likely to' is not a fact, it's your opinion.
I d=sid he was likely to - which is a fact - I didn't say he would
If the caninet is at each others throats
Unless you examined constituency figures, your doorstep comments came from the ant-Corbyn media - the one who launched an anti-Corbyn hate campaign from the minute he put in an appearance - many non active voters are bound to have ben influenced by that
Corbyn immediately launched an enquiry into anti-semitism accusations and published the results
If you believe there to be a serious problem - what is it ?
Ii is now as impossible to distinguish antisemitism from criticism of Israel as it is to criticise that terrororist state without being called "anti-Semitic"
Perceiving someone to be something is a million miles from proving they were
Some of the clearest statements on Labour antisemitism have come from Jewish People in the labour party who claim that it has been trumped up by supporters of Israel and right wingers wishing to get rid of Corbyn
Articles like the one reproduced below were once easy to find on the web - now they have all but disappeared
The Jewish voices in support of Corbyn have been censored almost out of existence   
Wonder if anybody has a comment on it here or are they all to eager to back this right-wing thug
Jim

As a Jewish Labour member, I'm sick of anti-Semitism being used as a political weapon against Jeremy Corbyn
Miccael Segalov IThe Indeendant, 26 September 2016

For years now I’ve travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies. I’ve seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who wear swastikas as badges of honour. Where was your concern for my community then?
It’s become an all too regular occurrence, waking up to headlines reporting that anti-Semitism in the Labour party is now an endemic problem, and that bad feeling against Jewish people in the party is on an upward trajectory.
As a Jewish Labour Party member, they are stories that should have me alarmed. I know from experience just how dangerous anti-Semitism can really be: vast swathes of my ancestors were lost to the murderous hands of the Nazis, and observant Jewish friends of mine have been harassed and attacked on British streets. I’ve read the slurs, faced the trolls, had neo-Nazis shout abuse in my face.
And yet it’s not just anger against bigots that hits as I scan story after story, but frustration towards those trying to use an all too real threat facing my community for their own political gain. Since Corbyn’s election as Labour leader, unsupportive MPs, campaigning groups and journalists have been desperate to paint him and the movement who support him as anti-Semitic fanatics, despite knowing it’s really not the case.
I could tell you about my own experiences, how I’ve never experienced or witnessed anti-Semitism inside the party – but that’s just what I’ve seen, non-Jewish defenders of my religion will claim. My experiences, and those of countless other Corbyn-supporting Jewish members who I’ve spoken to, aren’t reflective of what’s really going on, apparently.
Just a few months ago, I found myself sat in the Channel 4 News studio, tasked with discussing anti-Semitism under Corbyn. Sat opposite me was John Woodcock MP, desperate to tell me it’s the “hard-left” who are “associated [with] Soviet Russia” with anti-Semitic views infiltrating the party who were responsible for stirring up hatred.
Now, we only need look at the most high-profile of cases to see that anti-Semitism is by no means a product of Corbyn’s supporters. Naz Shah, MP for Bradford West, was rightly suspended for sharing anti-Semitic posts on Facebook, not a Corbynite but a backer of Yvette Cooper in the last leadership election. Ken Livingstone, similarly sanctioned for his remarks about Hitler, has been a party grandee for decades. An insurgent? I think not.
Woodcock pointed me towards “a rise in anti-Semitic incidents” within the party, without having a single statistic or figure to back it up. It’s an answer I hear time and time again, and for those of us – Jewish or otherwise – committed to fighting anti-Semitism, enough is enough.
It’s tiring and it’s frustrating, but moreover it’s frankly dangerous.
For years now I’ve travelled across the UK to report from far-right, fascist and neo-Nazi rallies, and the counter-demonstrations that take place alongside. I’ve seen the real threat that faces Jews in the country, those who profess hatred for Jews and our religion, who wear swastikas as badges of honour, who’ll salute like a Nazi in front of your face. Where was your concern for my community then?
It’s not just the distinct absence of those MPs in Labour who now claim to be at the forefront of the fight against anti-Jewish prejudice that’s striking, but the presence of those they now claim to be British Jewry’s biggest threat.
It’s the left, and Corbyn’s supporters, who’ve put their bodies on the line time and time again to protect us from these racist organisations.
Top ArticlesThe time has come todecolonise botanicalgardens like Kew
That’s why these cries of anti-Semitism make a mockery of a real and present danger. Corbyn’s commitment to fighting discrimination and prejudice has een well documented for decades. His supporters are those who’ve stood alongside him. Accusing these people now of peddling prejudice is nothing but political point-scoring at its worst. It undermines real hatred, and waters down the impact of calling out anti-Semitism when it rears its ugly head.
I’m not saying Labour members haven’t experienced anti-Semitism inside the Labour Party, and of course, a progressive movement like Labour should hold itself to higher standards than other organisations. Those few who blindly label all incidents of anti-Semitism as anti-Corbyn slander and restrictions on critiquing Israel need to listen to the voices of victims and let conversations about Judaism and Israel be led by Jewish members: we are here and we know how to speak.
This isn’t to say I don’t value the concern, but I want to make a few things perfectly clear. Anti-Semitism is not a problem particular to Labour; using the words “Judaism” and “Israel” interchangeably is just as (if not more) common on the right as on the left.
Oppression, discrimination and Jewish identity are complex; the relationship between our religion and the state of Israel is constantly debated; disagreements will happen inside our community. Let us lead these discussions. Don’t quickly take sides simply to advance your faction, angle or personal interests.
And if you’re truly concerned about fighting racism and anti-Semitism, I look forward to seeing you stand alongside us in meetings and on the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

The number of party members under different leaders is completely irrelevant in terms of election success. What matters is the number of non-members who are persuaded to vote Labour In elections. The true measure of success of the party has nothing to do with the number of new members this or that leader attracts, and everything to do with how many MPs it gets elected at the GE. That is the golden number. Starmer knows this.

By drawing away the votes of former Labour voters - many, perhaps most, of them non-members - The Tory Propaganda Machine ensured victory at the last GE. In order to ensure that doesn’t happen again, Labour has to suppress and silence the TPM, and one of the best ways to do that is to act positively and swiftly to remove the things that the TPM could/would try to use against Labour in the lead up to an election. Starmer knows this.

Whether people like it or not, the ‘Anti-semitism’ trope was used very successfully by the Tories and their stooges in the Labour Party at the 2019 GE. They will use it again, given the slightest opportunity, at the next GE. The only way for the LP to combat and nullify that is by taking immediate, strong action whenever anyone does anything that the TPM could latch on to and use, rightly or wrongly, to persuade the electorate that ‘anti-semitism is alive and well in the Labour Party’. Starmer knows this.

No MP is bigger than the Party. As with a business, the Party’s management will have set rules regarding MPs’ behaviour, and it’s incumbent on MPs to stick to the rules, otherwise their worth to the party in achieving its top priority - election to government - is reduced. It’s called discipline. Starmer knows this.

Starmer knows these things. I’m surprised that others don’t.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:56 AM

starmer 'is likely to have driven away a lot of people who rejoined when corbyn appeared' sorry, Jim - 'is likely to' is not a fact, it's your opinion. i rejoined when corbyn appeared, i'm not leaving -and we don't know yet how many people will leave.

nor do we know how many people will support the party now that corbyn has gone. judging by the amount of people on doorsteps who said 'i would vote labour but not for corbyn' there should be a few.

corbyn was a bit slower to get rid of folk who were perceived to be anti-semitic - but he did dump people as well.

maybe starmer is more efficient and more politically astute. we lefties may be angry again - but we are always sulking about some perceived lack of socialist purity.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:53 AM

I agree that blind loyalty will not achieve anything. But neither will discussing or moaning. The only thing that will change the leadership is a leadership election and that is not likely to happen until after the next general election.

The other option I mentioned is literally splitting the party. You say it is already split. It isn't. Although there are factions it is still one Labour party. The only way to get a leftist leader before the next GE is to start a new party of the left. Which will result in a truly split Labour party and ensure the Tories tenure forever.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:52 AM

Forget the song - no time for that frippery - should have written "strong"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 04:41 AM

The has split the party that elected him and is likely to have driven away a lot of people who rejoined when Corbyn appeared
That's not "moaning" Dave, it's stating a fact
He is more likely to appease Johnson "for the good of the people" than he is to oppose him - that's a strong likelihood
My initial comments on Starmer were patronised (at best) rather than agreed with - he hasn't taken long to live up (down) to my expectations
The first thing, in my opinion, is to discuss (moan if you like) his potential as a leader - not to call for blind loyalty - that will change nothing
The coming period is likely to include a great deal of social unrest - there's been enough of that over the lock-down already - the next will be the job losses, the shortages and the profiteering on everything, from rents to food prices
There's a large backlog of medical treatments that haven't taken place, cancer being among them
The people are not going to be happy bunnies for the forseeable future and some of the more sinister fringe parties are going to be lining up offering their own alternative
The left needs to be there with song, clear and trustworthy leadership - Labour is the logical choice - but not under the present circumstances
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:42 AM

Labour would have to have suicidal tendencies to accept this behaviour

Sorry Jim but Starmer was elected by the party membership and is likely to be there until the next election at least. The only available options to accepting his leadership are walking away, splitting the party or moaning about it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Jun 20 - 03:07 AM

Unless the leadership sorts itself out as to whether it is going to be a genuine alternative with alternative policies it will not get and does not deserve loyalty
You have declined to say whether there is evidence of antisemitism in the Labour Party, which leads me to belive that you don't; in which case, you are prepared to accept a dishonestly ruthless leader who is prepared to throw his colleagues and his party's raison d'être to the wolves for the sake of political expediency and career - no different to Johnson's 'Night of the log knives' in the 'Battle of Brexit'
Unity is meaningless and valueless unless it is for a purpose - that purpose was intended to change society for all - not to back up all the shitty injustices that have been heaped on the less-well-off - rising inequality, working people's children's exclusion from higher education, the loss of a voice in the workplace, the transformation of homes into speculative investments
WE have gradually seen the star in Labour's crown, The National Health Service turned into a beurocratic, paper-pushing nightmare carrying a begging-bowl - Labour's career politicians have done little to offer any opposition to this
Instead, the members stood by while Blair committed Britain to decades of oil wars and far too many of its parliamentarians got their fingers burned in taking back-handers and fiddling expenses
Under you right wing - Labour became indistinguishable from its supposed opponents
Now you are demanding Loyalty for someone who has come into leadership quite happy to join those accusing labour of having an "antisemitism problem" by sacking one of his ministers and splitting the parliamentary party
All the support 'Labour out of loyalty and things might change' crap in the world isn't even going to begin to put things right
Yes, Johnson has to be opposed, but Starmer has made it quite clear he isn't going to do it - he is a manipulator and a bully
Labour would have to have suicidal tendencies to accept this behaviour
JIm

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:28 PM

Unless the membership start to show some unity and loyalty to the leader, get over their factionism and divisions, and at least try to look like a party that knows where it’s going and how to get there, it wont make a scrap of difference who that leader is, there will still be a Tory government after the next election and into the foreseeable future after that. The LP will have thrown itself under the Tory Propaganda bus, and the members will have nobody to blame but themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:05 PM

I agree, and I think I hope so, if you see what I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:03 PM

Starmer may well be another seat warming placeholder leader...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 04:48 PM

Well, Dave, it stinks. But I'm staying in the party for the time being. Becky and Angela Rayner (who opposes the sacking, by the way) I saw as a bright future for an honest, leftie party. I still live in hope. Shall there be womanly times, or shall we die?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 03:10 PM

It's with regret that I am cancelling my membership of the Labour party. It is not Just the Becky issue but that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Although I know that it may be a futile gesture, I am sending my subscriptions to the Green party from now on. We need to realise that care of the planet is far more important than who gets the money or who criticises Israel

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:49 PM

Go along with all of that Steve
I don't believe that the accusations of antisemitism lost Labour the alection; the tragedy is that the term has bee so deliberately misused by those defending Israel that nobody cares any more - the Jewish People are beins blamed for Israel's criminal human rights breaches by all sides - the Arabs talk about 'the Jews' (they always have understandably) genuine Antisemites use Israel's behaviour to attack the Jewish People and Israel claims criticism of their policies and "antisemitic" - in essence, blaming The Jews
The sharp rise in Antisemitism, particularly in the European States that have swung to the right, is the consequence
A half decent Labour Leadership would clarify exactly why these accusations are false; Corbyn's enquiries proved pretty conclusively that they were

This situation is set fair to worsen in the near future after Israel's announcement that plan to annex the illegal settlements is to go ahead from now on
THis is going to galvanise the B.D.S. supporters into action, which will increse attacks on the Lanour Pary
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 01:25 PM

Well what "subject" did you mean, John, when you said they were "shooting their mouths off" if it wasn't antisemitism? You said it was the subject (among others) that precipitated Labour's disastrous defeat. The subject that the two women were "shooting their mouths off" about was the dirty dealings between US police and the Israeli secret service. That is not the antisemitism issue that helped Labour to lose, except in the minds of the duplicitous. In fact, it is not antisemitism at all. By conflating that with antisemitism ("the subject," as you said), you have got into bed with the right of the party and the Board Of Deputies. Game, set and match to them, until the next time... Fair-minded lefties tried for years to defend Corbyn against bogus and hypocritical accusations of his being complicit with alleged antisemites in the party. So now we've accepted that his adversaries have been right all the time and that we can add Rebecca and Maxine to the long list of Labour antisemites, have we? Jim's spot on. There's little point trying to elect one unprincipled git to replace another unprincipled git. Still, four years is a long time in politics. Just don't delude yourself that this kind of move will make Starmer more electable. The left are a key part of Labour and always have been, and this kind of disreputable dealing won't make them go away.

Maybe from now on there'll be a spineless sign up in the shadow cabinet meeting room: "Whatever you do, never mention Israel..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 12:49 PM

I can't say that Starmer would have been my choice, he wouldn't.

However he got the job and has to try and steer the Labour party to power. Playing the role of opposition is neither use nor ornament if you want things to change.

By sacking Long-Bailey he was making a statement "I'm in charge" If you wish to see a Labour Government next time round you, me and the rest of us need to back him this early on in his fight to regain power for Labour.

Squabbling amongst yourselves only serves to aid the conservatives.

PS I have no doubt I will be accused of all sorts of things because of my post today.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 12:26 PM

i'd say ukip are just about done in the UK - all reverted to supporting the tory party, who are far more effective at being far=right wreckers. when it comes to the wee far right groups i remember tommy robinson got 2 and a half thousands votes as a north west candidate in the last european election and lost his deposit (i've never seen the other union rep at my work look so pissed off) at the same election majid majid the green mayor of sheffield won a european seat with over 200,000 votes. so there is hope - though not too much in west cumbria, sadly

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 12:15 PM

"Jim - please don't start on the "don't bother to vote" bollox.."
It was rhetorical - I don't believe it to be necessary anyway
Keeping the Tories out is a negative aim - to be honest, the alternatives aare just as bad, if not worse, as things stannd - Ukik is still simmering in the background, The English Defence Leage only has to respectabalise as the B.N.P. tried to, and they could take a lump o the Populist vote
WE has all this a few years ago in Ireland when a nutty returned Yank, Peter Casey, shouted "Travellers" and came second in the Presidential race
These are dangerous times
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:58 AM

we should also remember that good mps like clive lewis and chris williamson have also lost their jobs through this long-running argument. labour continually lose out to these smear tactics and must find a smarter way to fight back.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:57 AM

Jim - please don't start on the "don't bother to vote" bollox..

We are mature life experienced adults, not adolescent students...

I hold you in high esteem for your political analysis, research skills, and amazing memory for relevant info..

I welcome and value your political commentary, as if you are a real life mentor for me..

But you do tend to go a bit too extreme and unrealistic
in your conclusions and manifesto...

It should be a simple enough obvious goal - get the tories out...

.. and keep 'em out..

Without any of us lefties kicking an unforgivable home goal,
by enabling the far right to replace the tories in Govt...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:51 AM

i don't know many folk who are willing to walk away. as i say, i've done it in the past but won't again - not till we have the luxury of choosing an alternative to a beaten tory party. ideologically i am better suited to the greens but i want to try to make a difference. the current argument does not matter in the long run, we have been here many times before

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:40 AM

If that's the only alternative PFR - why vote ?
Maybe the Anarchists were right - it only encourages them
I belive that if Starmer is allowed to get away with the way he has behaved all the new members that Cornyn brought back in will walk away
Maybe Blair's Babes are happy with that - back to a Government of self-serving parliamentarians fighting for the status quo
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:26 AM

If it's ok with the good socialists,

I'd reluctantly rather take a Starmer Labour Government shit sandwich,

than a never ending tory diet of nothing else on the plate but shit...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 11:19 AM

" Here’s a clue - I haven’t."
Put it another way then since you dodged the question
What reason do you have to believe she is ?
She has been sacked from her job for this specifically - if there is no evidence that she isn't that sacking was unfair

Not "me and my mate" as you dishonest;y claim - this sacking has led to a split in the Labour party - it includes the deputy lead
Matybe you meannt "meand mu mate, the deputy leader and all the other members now up in arms over the sacking ?

I read exactly what you wrote and am still waiting for an answer to my question
Your somewhat ---- can't think of a word - non-answer to my antisemitism question leads me to think you might be siding with those who claim Labour does have an antisemitism problem

There is nothing "self-indulgent" anout expecting honesty from a Party Leader - we've already got a dishonest prime minister, why try to replace him with another ?
I answered your original quote in full, by the way - I repeat - why the hell should any party abandon its principles over something might use something might use?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 10:58 AM

there is an opinion i've often heard - usually from ukip/right wing types - or folk with just a passing interest in politics who like to think they are too smart to be persuaded by any politician - 'all just in it for themselves' and 'those politicians are all the same' it's just lazy and media driven nonsense. if anyone can't see the difference between decent politicians and the current government then they are eejits or worse. when folk on the left descend to the same level, condemning them all as shameless tories they are just doing the establishment job for them . part of the problem or part of the solution?
[ also hear a lot about what is going on in the labour party but i don't know how much contributors to the discussion have a real and current knowledge of that issue. it should go without saying that you shouldn't believe all you read in the papers. i rejoined when corbyn got the job and back the manifesto of the election before last. as did everyone in our branch, including our MP sue hayman - who worked hard for JC though she had proposed owen smith. i disagreed with her on stuff though was happy to work for her as a good woman and a hard-working mp. it's tragic that we now have a clueless lout elected in her place.

we can choose between self-indulgence and solidarity . in the end if we can't take down this government it really does not matter how we interpret the current spat. there have been so many similar stories in the past- so many splits -we need to grow up and start behaving like a party ready to govern

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 10:17 AM

When will you and your mate Jim start to actually read and understand what I write, instead of putting Your own highly-spun interpretation on it? Comment on the facts of what I say, not what you try to pretend I say. You really should be better than that, Steve.

Please show me where I have said that Long-Bailey’s and Peake’s tweets were anti-Semitic. Here’s a clue - I haven’t. I haven’t passed any judgment, I have only referred to claims and judgments by others that they’re anti-Semitic.

I’m not arguing for the ‘Gagging of any discussion of a horrendous Israeli regime’, that, once again is your spun, distorted interpretation of what I’m saying, which I answered in my last post, paragraph 3.

I’ll say it again - I want this foul Tory government kicked out and replaced by a Labour government. I want that for the good of the people of the United Kingdom, people who have suffered and whose lives have been impoverished by ten years of Tory mis-rule. But, if Labour is to take power, it has once and for all to rid itself of undeserved labels - and it won’t do that by providing ammunition for the Right-Wing Propaganda Machine. You saw how shit sticks during the last election - and it will stick again unless Labour tread very carefully.

Now, if anyone wants to discuss what I’ve actually said! feel free. But if you think I’m going to waste my Sunday afternoon, or any other time, arguing with deceitful people who twist my words, or pretend I said something I didn’t say, fuggeddit.

Get honest, and stop the deceitful horse-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 09:48 AM

Well I have nothing to do with any social media, but, let's face it, twitter is a prime platform for politics now whether we like it or not.

"For an MP to shoot their mouth off on social media about a subject that, amongst others, caused Labour to suffer one of its worst defeats ever..."

The subject you presumably refer to is antisemitism. One more time. Neither Maxine Peake's remarks nor Rebecca's response contained any antisemitism. You can opine about their judgement (as long as we don't mention Gendrick or Cummings...), but that much is crystal clear. You seem to be arguing for the gagging of any discussion of an horrendous Israeli regime. Well, unless you can tell me what you think is the right way and the right place. As this is a party issue, not Parliament, eh? What price robust and honest politics if we can't mention Israel, without looking over our shoulders?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 09:27 AM

Oh dear Steve, not you too, pretending I said things that I didn’t?

In the LP’s present situation, it can’t do anything about anything - it was defeated at the 2019 GE by a landslide and is impotent to defeat the worst Tory government in living memory on any issue. I’m astonished you need to be reminded of that fact.

Of course things should be discussed, but in the right way and in the right place. For an MP to shoot their mouth off on social media about a subject that, amongst others, caused Labour to suffer one of its worst defeats ever, and bring down its leader, is either naively irresponsible or deliberately destructive.

Social media is not the right place. Parliament is.

And please, Steve, don’t resort to Jim’s low tactics of pretending I said something I didn’t. I really did expect better of you, for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 09:11 AM

So, John, we'd all better completely shut up about the murky dealings between the Israeli secret service with US police forces, not to speak of the horrors that the Israeli regime has visited on the Palestinian minority, lest we get tarred with the antisemitism brush. Game, set and match, then, to the Board Of Deputies and the other pro-Israel lobby groups, including all those "friends of Israel" party cabals. Except that they'll be back for more, of course. Even the disreputable John Mann and Margaret Hodge have crawled out the woodwork. Don't mention the occupation...don't mention ethnic cleansing in the Negev...don't mention the illegal settlements on all the best land with the best water...don't mention Gaza...don't mention IDF snipers murdering children on the border...mustn't get called antisemitic and make ourselves "less electable..." First things first, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 08:50 AM

Jim, if you’re going to quote me, please give the complete quote - don’t just select a small part which you can pretend means something it doesn’t. The full quote is...

”What I do know, and what you, as an intelligent person, should know, is that Rebecca Long-Bailey, in full knowledge of the devastation the ‘Labour antisemitism’ Tory-led propaganda wrought on the Party in the lead-up to, and during, the 2019 General Election, chose to re-tweet a reference to Israel that would provide ammunition for the Tories, and was almost guaranteed to incite yet another round of ‘Look over there - Labour anti-semitism!’ propaganda“

My use of the term ‘propaganda’ makes my meaning perfectly clear. You’ve chosen to take a few words from it and, in the most deceitful way possible, put your own interpretation on it to mean something that was neither intended, nor exists in fact.

Do please read posts in full, and think a bit, before you start up with your rabid pit-bull routine.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 08:26 AM

"Until now the party has shown good unity under Starmer. "
The deputy leader of the Labour Party (Long's flatmate) is one of those opposing her sacking - the Labour Party is divided at the top

"Rebecca Long-Bailey, in full knowledge of the devastation the ‘Labour antisemitism’"
Are you suggestion that the Labour Party has a problem with antisemitism, if not, are the accusations not worth opposing because "the Tories might use them"
Where does that leave nationalisation, or equality of opportunity, or homes for all, or a right to health for all..... and all the other policies the Tories are likely to use ?
Maybe we abandon those and just accept policies the Tories won't use ?
The first of those points is the most immediate but all the rest logically follow
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 08:15 AM

Steve, you have absolutely no more idea of what has gone on within the dark recesses of Party HQ any more than I do, and I have none. It’s possible that she was behaving naively when she re-tweeted Maxine Peake’s tweet, it’s equally perfectly possible that she deliberately set this whole situation up to embarrass Starmer. You don’t know, just as I don’t know, what were the exchanges between Rebecca Long-Bailey and Keir Starmer that preceded her dismissal but, unlike the Corbynistas, I’m prepared to accept that Starmer is the boss, and it’s his call.

What I do know, and what you, as an intelligent person, should know, is that Rebecca Long-Bailey, in full knowledge of the devastation the ‘Labour antisemitism’ Tory-led propaganda wrought on the Party in the lead-up to, and during, the 2019 General Election, chose to re-tweet a reference to Israel that would provide ammunition for the Tories, and was almost guaranteed to incite yet another round of ‘Look over there - Labour anti-semitism!’ propaganda. Whether what she posted was anti-Semitic or not, it’s an inescapable fact that it provided the Right with a stick to beat the Party with. It was either a lack of judgment on her part or, as a Corbynista, it was a deliberate act intended to undermine the current Leadership. Either way, it required action.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:58 AM

Yes, Gummer, I think.   I didn't want to examine the mental image too closely! :)

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:54 AM

Wasn't that the little bespectacled Tory squirt who Steve Bell depicted as a pimple on Thatcher's nose? Ah yes...Gummer...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:47 AM

Perhaps you'd also approve of him selling his own kids in order "to make himself electable..."

Now why did that instantly bring an image to my mind of Michael Gove giving a beefburger to his child at the height of the CJD crisis?

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:41 AM

Until now the party has shown good unity under Starmer. If you want to foment disunity you can do it in the disreputable and opportunistic manner that Starmer has just displayed. Not an especially healing move, was it? And there is a bottom line here: Maxine Peake's remark may have been inaccurate but the broader picture of Israel indulging in the training she spoke of is true. That was a criticism of Israeli government policy. Therefore it was in no way antisemitic, not even remotely. Starmer wanted Becky out and he used this false pretext to do it. Perhaps you'd also approve of him selling his own kids in order "to make himself electable..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: peteglasgow
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:30 AM

i wouldn't doubt anyone's desire to get rid of the tories. i don't think any of us would rather we didn't live within a different political system and atmosphere. it's depressing enough to read about the old anti-semitism shite yet again but even more depressing to read folk with good intent returning to the endless squabbling about purity/pragmatism. the same old self-indulgent splitting that has led us to where we are now. i've done my share of stomping off in a huff but never really deviated from my peace, green, socialism etc opinions.....(shoot me now) i like reading alistair campbell in the new european - you can't really argue with him -we have to win an election or 2.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 07:08 AM

" Sunny Jim"
Tsk, tsk, still my Party right or right,
Snideswipes are no substitute for rational arguments
No Party that tolerates a leader who sacks collegues for telling the truth is worth electing
For cry out loud, how often has Johnson been slated for dishonesty - now we have Labour supporters demanding that we vote for the same kind of dishonesty - what kind of double--standards are they ?
A party must earn loyalty - it's not like money which can be inherited by the most worthless benefactor
Labour can no longer claim to be a socialist party - there lies the main problem
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 06:09 AM

So you approve of disunity and disloyalty then, Steve? Like Sunny Jim, you’d rather have this disgusting Tory government than unite behind the Labour leader (who, I would remind you once again was democratically elected by a majority of party members) in order to fight and win at the next GE, whenever that may be.

It’s unfortunate that RL-B got the bullet but, knowing full well that the Tory propaganda-machine weaponised ‘Labour anti-semitism’ so successfully during the 2019 GE Campaign, and will use it again given the opportunity, she should have perhaps thought a bit more carefully before tweeting something that any fule no would be seized upon by the Party’s enemies whether it be true or not, spun, and used as yet more anti-Labour propaganda.

What a very strange state of affairs, where those who claim, loud and proud, to be ‘the best kind’ of Socialists have so little interest in their Party becoming electable, and would rather put one MP’s personal fortunes ahead of election success.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 06:09 AM

"If you still find that contentious, let's delete the statement altogether"
Thanks Doug
Te problem is it's become to regular
Immoderacy is a feature of all politics (and religion, for that matter)
The left can be immoderate - the right gave us Thatchers army against the miners, Tommy Robinson's scumbags attacking the police and the two bobbies who jammed Blair peach's head against the corner of a wall and killed him
When it comes to political policies, I see nothing moderate about turnng families out of their homes when they are unable to pay rents, or using Xenophobia to win elections
You judge Parties by their overall objectives, not when their exponents overstep the merk
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:53 AM

Don't mess with my two to too...

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Jun 20 - 05:51 AM

Well, let's take that well-known "moderate," Keir Starmer. This "moderate" has made an unprincipled and opportunistic decision to sack a left-wing member of his cabinet on false pretences. His decision appears to have gone down rather well with plenty of other "moderates," including some in this thread. If being a "moderate" permits you to do things in that way, then I'm proud to count myself as not among those "moderate" ranks. Oh, and that other Labour "moderate," Tony Blair, another chap who had no time for the left in his party, dragged this country into a war on a lie, causing death and misery to hundreds of thousands of people. And there are plenty of "moderates" who are way to frightened to lift a finger against Benjamin Netanyahu's vicious regime. I bet those Palestians just love all these western "moderates." If "moderate" means ditching your principles in order to "become electable," then things have really come to a pretty pass, haven't they? And I'll remind you also that many organisations that fight for justice, equality and human rights on this planet are replete with "non-moderate" lefties...