BS: UK thread, Politics and political

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 07:22 AM

I think the twin problems of the virus and Iains ("Go together like a horse and carriage" as the song says) is having the effect of getting to us on occasion
We must keep repeating "Every day and in every way I'm getting better and better" - that's what they told us in school anyway ad look at the good it did Liverpool; two world class football teams, The friggin' Beatles and The Mersey Tunnel "Who coud ask for anything more" (as the other song says
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 06:25 AM

A bit harsh on Doug there, John, I thought...

As you say, our choice. But picking on contradictions in arguments or calling out his straw men, as I did, isn't attacking the man. You can do that and stay high. The way we comment on the absurdities might be the mistake we've commonly made. I avoid the more ludicrous stuff completely, such as links to his eejit blogger-boss. We're all different and it doesn't do to keep on at us if we engage occasionally and carefully and recognise when bait is being a-dangled. If we get down and dirty it's a different matter. Then you can bollock us!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM

To repeat my post of 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM: I think it unlikely that the science will support any relaxation at the end of May - that will be driven by politics, not science, if it happens.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 04:48 AM

What matters is that most people, including the Prime Minister, think we need to continue the lockdown for some time to come. When this started, I thought there might be some relaxation at the end of May. Not much, just some. That still seems possible to me.
If you look at the curves of new cases and deaths on the worldometer website you will see the UK is atypical in that there is no pronounced peak and decay, unlike Italy where peak occurred just after mid March.
The UK is flatlining/slowly decaying this complicates the timing for easing restrictions. As there is no clearly defined decrease there is no obvious end point on which to base timings for relaxation measures. How much this is skewed by London being the largest transport hub in Europe is hard to say but it must have some impact.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:53 AM

"Your choice, Jim."
Sorry Baccy - you're not responding to my points
He's not going to go away and the mods aren't going to do anything about his behaviour
Rather than allow him to be a Lord Haw Haw, I can see no reason why we shouldn't why we shouldn't hoist him on his own petard - I can't for the life see how that is lacking in self respect - I put a great deal of effort in my mis-spent youth defacing National Front posters with my own messages
As you say, my choice
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:17 AM

By the way, the reason I thought end of May was because of this 'review after three weeks' suggestion. I thought after one set of three, people would accept a further period, after two they would be some grumbling, and after three lots of three weeks the grumbling would be loud enough in some quarters that a slight relaxation of the lockdown became likely. So nothing to do with scientific justification, but largely based on my impression of how some people will react to being locked down. And interesting had it been a 4 week period or a five week period, I think it would still be the third review that would be a problem: it is the reviews not the length that determines the dates.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:10 AM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy.
The definition of dichotomy is a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.

There is a sense implied that lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated.

I was using it in the sense of opposed, not unrelated, so there is no such implication. But there is no point in getting hung up an precisely what a word means. if you don't like that word, I can live with it.

What matters is that most people, including the Prime Minister, think we need to continue the lockdown for some time to come. When this started, I thought there might be some relaxation at the end of May. Not much, just some. That still seems possible to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 03:08 AM

”On the other hand, the contradictory manner in which he argues with himself by saying the opposite of what on the one hand, Nigel is saying and on the other what he himself has posted earlier is, in my opinion, well worth underlining“

Your choice, Jim. I prefer to hold on to my self-respect, rather than allow myself to be jerked around by a worthless troublemaker. It’s playground nonsense..

Your choice.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Apr 20 - 02:57 AM

Baccy
I've taken note of your point and to a degree I'm adhering to it
On the other hand, the contradictory manner in which he argues with himself by saying the opposite of what on the one hand, Nigel is saying and on the other what he himself has posted earlier is, in my opinion, well worth underlining

The British public are now getting mixed messages from a Government which is demanding that everybody has to pull together if this crisis is to be beaten
Johnson, obviously shaken shitless by his own personal experiences at the hands of the virus, is saying the restrictions can't be relaxed in any way (yesterday's broadcast was as near as I have ever come to his being a human being since he first became Lord Mayor of London).
His cabinet are at each other's throats - one lot follow Johnson about the lock-down, the other crowd are more concerned about their investments
The only thing they appear to agree on is that the rest of the country have to pull in the same direction (sez the mob who can't agree among themselves and have been making back-stabbing each other a Parliamentary blood-sport since Brexit hit the fan)
To follow their 'logic' you'd have to take a course on schizophrenia - they seem not to be able to agree which of them is Norman Bates and which, his mother

Which raises the question of how we deal with our own problem
On the one hand he puts up carefully gathered cut-'n-pastes, examples of why isolation must continue; on the other, he argues why, if it is not lifted, the Economy will go Walkabout and the country will crash and burn
In a way, our own Government ("right or wrong") spokesman is a microcosm of he Westminster Circus - he argues with himself from post to post, while saying the opposite to to what a fellow Tory is saying
An example of what's happening in real life which saves us from having to talk in abstract   
That's not responding to him, in my opinion - it's using his own inability to agree with himself to spotlight what's taking place among our glorious leaders
Let's use him while he's doing such a good job on our behalf !

We saw Johnson close up and aslive as he gets once - when he was a contender as London's Lord Mayor
Pat and I were waiting for a plane for Greece at Heathrow when, out of boredom, we went into Smith's rather good book department
Johnson was standing at the pay-desk jacket hanging open, belly hanging over his belt. shirt hanging out, fumbling for coins in his jacket pocket.. (he must have been using Dominic Scumming's personal tailor even then)
Pat and I were still grinning when we got off the plane in Northern Greece

I have to confess, that image stayed with us for a long time - it conjured up some bizarre images when we read about the sexual shenanigans with his bunga-bunga tax-money lady, Ms Arcuri
Imagined descriptions of how they performed together, coupled with the shirt-tail hanging out one, caused a great deal of amusement in our local bar - they admire British politicians no end over here - more-so since I-feel-Priti Patel suggesting blockading Ireland to make her surrender to Tory demands - if you don't laugh you have to cry, doncha?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 10:53 PM

I repeat what I’ve said numerous times now - don’t feed the troll. He hangs out the bait in order to get a reaction, and every time you and others take the bait and start jerking around, he wins - he’s got exactly what he wants.

Y’know, I’ve reached a point where I don’t give a FF - I’ve made my decision, he’s dead to me. You dance to his tune if you wish. And good luck with that.

Over and out.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:05 PM

Gosh, sorry John, I've just spotted that your "decorum" post was made one minute after his and that you couldn't have known what he'd said. Sorry about that, but I'm sticking to my point about his blatant (though non-insulting for a refreshing change) Aunt Sally.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:47 PM

"I don't see that the 'split' in the cabinet either proves or disproves it."
If one section of the Government are saying the lock-down should be eased and another (led by Bad Boris says the oppose - you have a divided Government calling for National unity in the middle of a major crisis - not only split against each other but split in what they are demanding and how they are behaving themselves
A three-way split maybe ?
It has already been argued by Boris's acolytes here that the restrictions ned to be eased for the sake of Britain's economic future
I think you need to be handing out new hymn sheets among your team Nigel
In fairness to yourselves, it's a little difficult working out what your Government wants to do - this is Brexit all over again, but thus time with a feller with a scythe as referee

An 80 seat majority indicates an electorate who want's this whole thing to finish anf soon
Nobody can have such contempt for the Briish People as to believe that they want a clownish public school lout who pays for his sex with taxpayers money, treats women as sex-toys and regards other races as "watermelon smilers" and walking latterboxes
Britain hasn't slithered that far down the tubes, surely
You Hitler won a majority and weny on to massacre millions because of their religion, way of life ot mental and physical health
Stalin was adored by his people more than any leader was before or has been since
Majorities are won by those who control the sources of information and the media - it has never been for their skill and dedication
Our political system puts our leaders in ivory towers and answerable to nobody but those who fill their bank accounts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 06:24 PM

Well, John, perhaps to confirm his alleged new level of decorum, you could ask who he means when he claims that there are those who don't accept the election result. I haven't seen anyone here predicating an argument on that basis, despite his provocative insinuation. Read that post again. The election result pissed me off hugely, but, along with everyone else I know, on Mudcat or not, I accept that result. Same old, same old. This leopard hasn't changed his spots. You just watch. And you didn't exactly ignore him when you praised his alleged decorum.

Let's not fall out, but let's not be complacent either.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:32 PM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy.
The definition of dichotomy is a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.
There is a sense implied that lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated.
One directly impacts the other. In that sense they are directly related.
The only way to avoid swamping the NHS is by lockdown, this automatically contracts the economy.
Testing is much vaunted by the media hacks and Labour but is its importance overplayed? It gives a status at a particular moment in time.
It can distinguish between those infected, not infected, have been infected with a questionable degree of precision. The only truly accurate figures are for rates of hospitalisation. The only reasonably accurate data for planning purposes is the daily infection rate, but how much is based on testing and how much on hospitalisation? One set of experts are doom merchants, others call for easing up on segregation. I suspect Dominic Cummins can serve a vital role sorting through the chaf and determining a coherant way forward.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:20 PM

So do like I did, and ignore it. Every time you react, he wins.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 04:12 PM

An 80 seat majority only comes across as a broken system to those that cannot accept the outcome of a truly democratic vote."

Sorry, BWM, but this comment doesn't represent "decorum." I haven't seen anyone here who doesn't accept the election result. Not only that, there is a glaring non seq in the first eleven words. It's not debate, John. It's him.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

Iains appears to be confused on this one:
Dichotomy suggests lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated. The longer the shutdown the more the economy suffers. The latter is dirctly related to the former,
Either they are related, or they are not. You can't argue it both ways in a single paragraph.

Jim is correct The row in teh cabinet now being described as "a split" indicates that lockdown and the economy most certainly are related although I don't see that the 'split' in the cabinet either proves or disproves it.

Lockdown is reducing the income of many people, meaning they have less to spend, and so the circulation effect of money reduces turnover and profits.
Many businesses are closed (temporarily at least) and are providing neither goods nor services. Neither are they generating profits for their owners, or taxes for the country.
The Government (using our money, or freshly 'created' money) is supporting both the above groups, being a cost to the country which will not see a matching benefit, apart from 1, keeping more people alive, 2, preventing an even more serious crash as those who are not working run out of funds.

For the three reasons above I agree with Jim that there is an inextricable link between the lockdown, and harm to the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:58 PM

Bonzo, posters on this thread are at last trying to hold intelligent conversation, without trolling, flaming, or abuse. Even Iains is conducting himself with the appropriate level of decorum.

Please don’t spoil things by behaving like a big daft kid.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:57 PM

An 80 seat majority only comes across as a broken system to those that cannot accept the outcome of a truly democratic vote.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:41 PM

The row in teh cabinet now being described as "a split" indicates that lockdown and the economy most certainly are related
The perscon making this claim was saying they were and choices had to be made, five minures ago - not even singing from his own hymn-sheet

When all this is over, Parliament with enter into a several year battle on the details of leaving Europe
Considering the length of time and the bloodletting it took to get this far, not a happy state of affairs to a fractured country with a sup staring it in the face
Happy Days most certainly aren't Here Again
The system is broken beyond repair and needs replacing - the people cannot be asked to carry the can back for this mess
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:40 PM

Just one salient point Jim, Johnson does not need the DUP backing.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:16 PM

meaningless bullshit
"And of course Labour would not have made any mistakes at all, "
As the Tories are operating a dictatorship and sacking everybody who doesn't agre with their leaders they are totally responsible for everything that happen
Labour, Lib DEms, Grreens, SNP - totally irrelevant
The only 'others' involved are those the bribed with bung - DUP
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 02:11 PM

And of course Labour would not have made any mistakes at all, because they are much better qualified to interpret the scientific advice provided.....................not!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:57 PM

Dichotomy suggests lockdown and harm to the economy are unrelated. The longer the shutdown the more the economy suffers. The latter is dirctly related to the former, the commonality being time.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 01:10 PM

Thuis morning started with an announcement that the Government is being forced to reconsider it's first come-first tested policy for the frozen emergency scheme,
Now the news that the cabinet are divided on whether the interests of the people people should be given priority over big business
Let's hope Scummings doesn't start frog-marching dissidents our again - that's all the UK needs
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 12:55 PM

"It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS"
That's it in a nutshell - money versus peoples health well-being and lives
When has it ever been any different ?
If the NHS was getting the support irt bneeded peopple wold be falling ill and dying at the rate they are
For all it's drawbacks, China has proved that hands down
It doesn't have such a problem because, despite having reintroducing Capitalism, it is under Government control rather than the opposite as in Britain and the US
It may have been the first to be hit by the virus, but it was the first to take it seriously, to show it the urgency required and to return to normal
The speed with witch that emergencyy hospital was up and running was a lesson for the world
China and Cuba were offering aid well before ther knockdowns were taking place
Meanwhile, back at Trump's ranch, the US were playing politics by rejecting "leftie" aid   
Now Johnson's jokers are faffing about tossing a coin to see whether business is more important than peoples lives, and his nodding dogs are shuffling into line to stand behind him   
This is also the case with the blame game - already it's the fault of disagreeing scientists insted of the string of fuck-ups already on record
Next stop - the last Labour Government
THIS from a scientist and surgeon with numerous Fellowships in Medicine and Medical science under his belt
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 12:07 PM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS
That is a false dichotomy. If you choose to risk swamping the NHS that does not ensure the economy does not collapse. Indeed, many argue that a second wave caused by an early release when we were not properly prepared (with extensive testing and extensive tracing), would do exactly that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 11:34 AM

It is a trade off between collapsing the economy or swamping the NHS.
The only definite is that a given percentage of the most vulnerable will die if they become infected. What that mortality rate may be is as yet unquantified. Logically the route to follow is that those deemed most at risk suffer a more onerous lockdown by way of extensions than the younger and fitter.Stagnating vast parts of the normal NHS schedule also causes deaths. Transplant and cancer patients cannot wait for cancelled treatments. They also die. Some real life situations do not have a textbook of correct options to be followed, it is more a case of suck it and see.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 11:20 AM

I have been looking for what SAGE documents I can find. This the latest I have found so far (16th March)

This recommendation caught my eye (emphasis is mine)


4. It was agreed that a policy of alternating between periods of more and less strict social distancing measures could plausibly be effective at keeping the number of critical care cases within capacity. These would need to be in place for at least most of a year. Under such as policy, at least half of the year would be spent under the stricter social distancing measures.


I would say SAGE did not seem to think much of reopening quickly.
I accept there may be later reports that change this view.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM

Nice one - we leave it to the politicians and wait to count the dead to see who is right
Don't suppose there are many wo could live with that - literally
IT'S ALL HAPPENING NOW
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:23 AM

My comment was, obviously I hope, tongue in cheek, Nigel. However, there is a definite similarity between the experts in virus transmission and the voters in Brexit: each is/was drawing on their views and experience, and each is/was working on incomplete knowledge, and each is/was having to make predictions about an uncertain future.

But I could not resist your comment that the majority is not always right. Which is, of course, true. Especially when it comes to predicting the future,

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM

so you don't go down the 17.4m we won get over it route, then Nigel?
I agree the majority view is not always right.

I have never claimed that the electorate were either scientists, or experts. The 17.4 million were, however, the majority of those who were both entitled to vote, and chose to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:51 AM

The science has yet to provide clear answers, hence the differing views.
Only hindsight will prove what path is the correct one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:25 AM

"And when experts differ in opinion,"
Since this pandemic started this has not happened - the confusion has been deliberately created elsewhere - particular by politicians covering up their blunders
Typical confusion by Johnson has just been shown on the news by Johnson, who has stated quite clearly that the Crsis is at its highest point so far and there can me no question of there being a relaxation
His merry morons seem to be either sending out their own message or secretly plotting to follow the money-makers behind his back
What the **** is the public expected to do - read between the lines
It's fairly obvious to me that Party loyalty is streets ahead of general welfare in this Donkey Derby
Maybe it's time to leaver the experts to decide and cut out the self-interested middle-men
That can never be a question of sacrificing lives for economic interests - not ever
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:24 AM

so you don't go down the 17.4m we won get over it route, then Nigel?

I agree the majority view is not always right.

In science, when the minority has evidence of a high enough standard, it will win. Here we have no such evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 08:10 AM

And when experts differ in opinion, there is nothing to say that the opinion of the majority of the experts is the correct one.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:58 AM

It is rarely difficult to find two experts of differing opinion, whatever the topic. At the minimum you need to consider how many experts side with one opinion or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:42 AM

opposing views of experts

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:35 AM

Experts only give guidance, government makes decisions.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:32 AM

It is worth remembering, though it all seems a long time ago now, that Professor Mitford, the usual economist Brexiteers supporters referenced, was quite prepared for the farming market within the UK to go to the wall in what he saw as the wider interests.   All the relevant papers can be found on Economists for Free Trade; I did read many of them at the time but can't be othered to do so again at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 07:04 AM

Britain has been claiming it has been acting on the advice of "experts" - it they didn't mention that they were referring to financial experts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 06:07 AM

With distinct uncertainty as to whether having been infected with covid-19 gives immunity relaxing lockdown will pruoduce a further wave of infection. Herd immunity would seem to be a myth. It raises questions as to the efficacy of lockdown and its relaxation. Those that are vulnerable will die if infected. This will remain true until such time as a cure is produced. The only function of lockdown would appear to be keeping infection tomanageable levels. But continued lockdown will destroy the economy and the food chain.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 05:55 AM

A second wave would be inevitable with the current levels of positive tests and without an extremely robust test and trace system in place. It should not be forgotten that every infection in every country started from a single infected person, or a very small number of infected people. So if you open up and there is a single person capable of infecting others you have a second wave on your hands unless you can detect, trace and isolate everyone who is a carrier. No amount of optimism gets round that. "Lock down" is an attempt to starve the virus out of existence, so opening before you have ensured that you can detect any reoccurrence even in asymptomatic carriers rapidly and effectively is extremely short sighted.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

It seems not all is as clear-cut as some would have us believe on the matter oe easing restrictions
Rabid Raab and his muppets have been planning for some now to do this in respone to pressure from big business
That it's still a goer in the present circumstances has elicited a statement from the Health boss that any attempts to do so will revers any improvement on the Covit 19 front   

Nice to hear some good news on the radio this morning
Thanks to the lock-down, the atmosphere is showing eigns of cleaning up and wild-life all over the planet is able to return to its natural habitat
The beach which was used for filming the Leonardo DiCaprio film in Maya Bay, off the coast of Thailand, which was closed because of over- tourism, is now full of basking sharks (probably on holiday from Westminster and Washington)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 03:29 PM

I read the report - in the Times, I think
They gave the impressiion that Hammond was acting on behalf of somebody
The increase on the clampdown was on The BBC news - bringing them together was mine own work

Innt great to see the right tearing each other's throat's out = just the thing to see us through a crisis and at least it keeps the parasitic incompetents off our backs for a while
What next, I wonder another 'Night o the Long Knives' to rid the party of dissidents
IT WOULDN'T BE THE FIRST TIME

And doesn't it show how much more civilised and democratic Labour is in comparison?
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 02:05 PM

Hammond's influence has waned dramatically since he and 20 other Torys MPs were sacked from the party for sabotaging the Government Brexit plans prior to the last election.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 12:50 PM

”Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business - today the Government announced it should be tightened radically - a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not “

Funny thing, that word ‘demand’. The BBC didn’t describe it as a ‘demand’, their choice of word was ‘urged’, which puts a different complexion on things, to my way of thinking. We are all free to ‘urge’ the government to take a course of action but, of course, the government is under no compunction to do as we ‘urge’.

Hammond’s time was over at the last GE - he can ‘urge’ or ‘demand’ until he’s blue in the face, but his opinion has no more weight than anyone else’s. And he’s quite simply wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Iains
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 09:14 AM

Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business

Former MPs such as Hammond are in no position to demand anything. No one is going to take a blind bit of notice of a has been.

a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not
A gnat against an elephant I would say, a minnow versus a whale.

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 08:20 AM

My very favourite quote from Blazing Saddles was "Blow it out yo' ass, Howard." I'm thinking of adopting it but dropping the "Howard..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK thread, Politics and political
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

This gets to a stalemate
Evidence is supplied, ignored and demanded again - and so ad-infinitum
That we are losing people, some of them long term, is evidence enough
Let's move on in the hope the discussion gets more important than the chess game

Former chancellors Phillip Hammond yesterday demanded that the lock-down should to eased to help British business - today the Government announced it should be tightened radically - a conflict of two major interests is something Britain needs desperately - definitely not
Jim