Can anyone learn to sing

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 07:12 AM

There are other 'tricks' - the much-derided 'finger-in-ear' - cupping the hand over the ear is a millennia-old technique universally used to stay in tune;
absolutely, i find it helps to hear oneself better, i normally make sure the hand is also on the jawbone as well as the ear

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:32 PM

ear ear, or ere ere

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 12 - 01:45 PM

What's curious is the genetic factor. The monotone son sang just like his monotone father. The other son (different father) is a musical prodigy and excellent singer. Both had me for a mother, both were always sung to and sung with and had therefore much the same musical nurture, different nature.

To overcome that genetic predisposition was not something the one son cared enough about to attempt to fix, and I'm not convinced it would be fixable. Your techniques and tricks with motivated students may indeed improve and correct the problems with singers without the hereditary predisposition or with marginal pitch issues, but I remain skeptical regarding my own experiences.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 02:45 AM

Has anybody isolated a gene which predisposes us to one particular artistic pursuit? If so, I'd be extremely grateful for more information on it.
Someone growing up in a background of music, painting or theatre is quite likely to react (positively or negatively) to these influences, but this has nothing to do with genetics, and to suggest that it has is to banish those of us not lucky enough to be born with these inbuilt tendencies out in the cold.
Sorry - all art is a matter of exposure and hard work as far as I'm concerned.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Tootler
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 11:46 AM

A genetic predisposition does not necessarily involve a single gene, it may involve a combination of genes. If one looks back over generations and sees a pattern, then a genetic factor is a possible explanation.

It seems in the case of Barbara's son, such an explanation should not be ruled out. Otherwise, on the whole, I agree with you, Jim.

I'm one of those who kept being told be couldn't sing till I found out otherwise. My regret was I believed them, in spite of evidence to the contrary, having sung when I was younger.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 12:52 PM

"all art is a matter of exposure and hard work " - so does Jim Carroll believe we could all be Renoirs or Mozarts with enough hard work? If one presumes the existence of talent in some, one can also presume the lack of its existence in some. Also not sure what Jim means by "inbuilt tendencies" if not heredity.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 01:15 PM

there are two separate major componants involved with "singing" - the brain and body ( combination of vocal chords, mouth/face, hearing parts, breathing parts). there are people who are atonal because the brain connections aren't in place to synthesize the final product we call music. There are some interesting books out there on the subject - interesting for the geeks, anyway.

Assuming that the brain can interpret sound waves as music, then the question is can the body perform all the needed tasks to reproduce sound waves that another person will interpret as music/singing.

I tend to believe that if you can talk and hum, then you can learn to sing... just how well is the question. But if the physical tools are there, a person should be able to improve their singing voices with work & some guidance.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 12 - 02:41 PM

"Jim Carroll believe we could all be Renoirs or Mozarts with enough hard work?"
No - of course I don't, nor Callass or Joe Heaneys ot Epsteins or Sumacs
I am talking about the basic ability to sing in tune - nothing more.
Achieving excellence such as to be found those you mentioned depends on all sorts of things.
It is totally depressingly unfair that you should set the bar so high as to put people off from even trying.
What do you suggest - we are never going to be as good as the best - most of us would never have been given the opportunity anyway - so we really shouldn't bother, but recognise our place in society; god knows, I hasd enough of that when I was at school
I was lucky enough to meet two people who were at the peak of their profession as singers, yest, instead of of pursuing their careers they chose to devote a night a week working with younger and less experienced singers - I never found out how much time they spent preparing for their workshops, but I guess it was a considerable amount.
I think myself to have been very fortunate, especially when I consider the elitists I might have met along the road.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 01:11 PM

There are people who were born with a singing proclivity and they have enlarged vocal apparatus which is suitable for opera. This is generally shown at an early age.
The rest is perspicacity combined with a drive to do this.

The raison d'etre of a good vocal coach is to help the student save his/her voice from deteriorating by the use of sound vocal technique.

Abuse of the vocal folds is common among performers who belt and strain in their styles. Unfortunately, some of this spills over into folkie territory.

We know aging performers who have lost their voices due to abuse.

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 12 - 01:39 PM

If you eveolve your own exercises there is no reason whatever to call on the services of a vocal coach.
Singing at the level most people are involved in rely on familiarity with and control of the voice.
I agree that the 'precious' world of classical singing (which I believe to be unnatural) calls for different disciplines.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST,Psychologist
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 07:11 AM

Barbara, if your son couldn't learn to sing he'd be so profoundly damaged that you couldn't hold a conversation with him.

If he talks normally, he has normal pitch perception, and the problem is you and your labelling of him. I'm not going to guess for a second what the factors were that stopped him learning to sing but it sure as hell wasn't his genes (because their aren't any).

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 08:03 AM

Thank you guest.
The greatest barrier to overcome when attempting to encourage anybody to sing is the one carefully constructed by those who insist on telling people they can't - threads like these produce examples of people who have been discouraged in this way every time they are started.
My musical education was, I would guess, typical of anybody who came from a working-class background - no practical teaching, just an introduction to LISTENING to music - we were trained to be 'audiences'. There was never any pretence that this was the objective - our lessons were called 'musical appreciation classes'.
Our 'singing' education, if it had any practical objective, was to produce possible recruits for the school choir;if you didn't measure up then you were told you would never make a singer and instructed to sit and listen while those who could did.
Beyond that, it was listening to the same half-dozen scratch old records.
The only other singing we encountered was at the school assembly at the beginning of the day, where it didn't matter if you sang in tune or not, nobody was really listening anyway.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 12 - 10:56 PM

Congenital Amusia

Congenital amusia (commonly known as "tone deafness") is a lifelong impairment of music perception that affects 4% of the population. To estimate whether congenital amusia can be genetically transmitted, its prevalence was quantified by direct auditory testing of 71 members of 9 large families of amusic probands, as well as of 75 members of 10 control families. The results confirm that congenital amusia is expressed by a deficit in processing musical pitch but not musical time and also show that the pitch disorder has a hereditary component. In amusic families, 39% of first-degree relatives have the same cognitive disorder, whereas only 3% have it in the control families. The identification of multiplex families with a high relative risk of experiencing a musical pitch deficit (λs=10.8; 95% confidence interval 8–13.5) enables the mapping of genetic loci for hereditary amusia.

Amusia

Over 21,000 other links for Congenital Amusia

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 03:10 AM

To establish whether anybody is 'tone deaf' would require expert medical opinion, as would establishing whether that condition has been passed on through the family or merely a single occurrence - an isolated accident of birth.
Arbitrary diagnosis by non-experts would be both highly irresponsible medically and would act as a disincentive to anybody wishing to attempt to sing.
I would be interested to learn if you have expertise enough to diagnose 'tone deafness', or whether the above has been cut-'n-pasted from the internet.
'Tone deafness' is one of the most common reasons given by people for not being able to song; in every case I have come across it is an unqualified self-diagnosis never backed up by any medical examination whatever. It is a cop-out for not putting in the effort, usually arising by having been told by non-experts that they are 'tone-deaf'.
I would also be interested to learn what experience you have of working with aspiring singers.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM

Its the abstract from the paper in the link...

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 03:41 PM

Still doesn't anwer any of the questions - have you ever participated in a workshop with new singers and do you have expertise enough to tell someone they are 'tone deaf'?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM

Have you read the paper ?

Subject: RE: Can anyone learn to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Oct 12 - 03:38 AM

Yes - tells me nothing I didn't know, and it still doesn't answer the questions I asked.
It certainly doesn't explain why an unqualified individual (your silence on this matter confirms that this is what you are) should take it upon themself to discourage potential singers from trying to sing.
Nor does it give us any inkling as to how many 'failures' you have encountered to back up your somewhat destructive attitude (your silence on this matter suggests you have never worked with potential singers).
As we used to say in the 60s 'if you're not par of the solution, you're part of the problem'.
Jim Carroll