ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:46 PM

I have posted links to the old Granada series of six TV films about the Spanish Civil War on the Mudcat link called

Lyr Req: Jack Atky & All: Spanish Civil War Song

The series is on You Tube but is I think unavailable elsewhere. I thought some of you who posted on this thread might be interested.

Regards, Geoff

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & n
From: Newport Boy
Date: 27 Jun 08 - 02:56 PM

Geoff

Regarding the recording date, I'm now fairly certain it would be 1942. The only evidence I've seen for 1940 is the note added on the Folkways disc to the reproduction of the Asch record notes. I think this is an error.

The banjo on the recording is Pete Seeger. According to Joe Klein in his Woody Guthrie autobiography Pete Seeger spent most of 1940 learning how to play the banjo.... By the time he returned to New York that December, ha wasn't half bad.

That seem to rule out a 1940 date for that recording, and the 1942 date quoted elsewhere seems right.

Phil

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:22 PM

Sorry the link at the top of my last post was to Volume Two of the Songs of the Spanish Civil War not One - it has a photo of Bart Van Der Schelling which I meant to put on the other thread.
Here is the correct link
Songs of the Spanish civil War Volume One

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 12:01 PM

Liner notes for Songs of the Spanish Civil War Volume One

The above link reproduces the complete liner notes to the Songs of the Spanish War which may clear up some of the confusions about some of the songs discussed above. It includes the version of Viva La Quince Brigada sung by Pete Seeger but does not attribute authorship. I now believe that this version of the Ay Carmela was written by Bart Van Der Schelling and I some time ago started another thread specifically about him and the evidence that he wrote the song.

Bart Van Der Schelling Any Information ? thread

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & n
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 11 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

Saw Christy at the Edinburgh Festival Theatre recently (very good gig!), and he changed the lyrics to "fifteenth international brigade".

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 08 Jun 08 - 02:00 PM

I have stumbled across the Blog of Malcolm Redfellow who expresses some curiosity about the involvement of Pete Seeger in the song but who ascribes the words of Quince Brigade to a Dutchman,Bart Van Der Schelling. I reproduce the interesting'new'information below.


"As far as Malcolm can determine, the song was wished on the folk-music scene by one Bart Van Der Schelling, a musician, activist and member of the Dutch segment of the International Brigade.

Time Magazine has this from 4th August 1941:

World War II has yet to produce a great song, but last week some of its saddest were heard in the U.S. The League of American Writers produced an album of records ($2.75) called Behind the Barbed Wire—six songs of the French, Spanish, Italian and German anti-Fascists who now rot in the French concentration camps of Gurs, Vernet d'Ariège, Argelès-sur-Mer.

The six songs were recorded in Manhattan by a Netherlands-born fighter in the Spanish Civil War, Bart van der Schelling. He wears his chin in a brace, is called "official singer" for the U.S. survivors of the International Brigades of the Loyalists. Singer van der Schelling is backed by an "Exiles Chorus" directed by Earl Robinson (Ballad for Americans). Some of the songs—the Spanish Joven Guardia, the Italian Guardia Rossa, the German Thaelmann-Bataillon, the French Au Devant de la Vie (music by Soviet Composer Dmitri Shostakovich)—were composed during the Spanish War. Most of them are in rough, plodding march time. The one which gives the album its name was composed by a German, Eberhard Schmitt, in the camp at Gurs. Its chorus, translated (not quite so lame in the original):
Behind the wire, our courage is unbroken;
We yield to no one! We're not broken reeds!
Jail or internment, we're masters of our lives,
Nothing counts with us but deeds!
For where Germany's and Austria's sons may be,
One goal they cling to: Liberty! . . .

Malcolm has never come across hair nor hide nor shellac of that 1941 recording, but we find Quinte Brigada [sic] is track 14 on "Fighting the Fascists, 1942-44", which is Disc 4 of Bear Family Records 10-CD compendium of Songs for Political Action. The credited musicians and singers are Pete Seeger, Tom Glazer, Baldwin Hawes and Bess Lomax.

It next turns up in The People's Songbook, originally published by Boni and Gaer in New York in 1948. And from there it became a:

Traditional Spanish Folksong from 'The People's Songbook', also known as 'Ah, Manuela!' it is possibly the war's signature song.

Thereafter, it turns up repeatedly in Pete Seeger's repertoire, notably in the Carnegie Hall Concert of June 8, 1963.

Though fond of the song, Malcolm has some doubts about the honesty of its parentage. It sure ain't "traditional", but van der Schelling or Seeger: does it really matter?

Link to the REDFELLOW BLOG

This full blog posting doesn't consider some of the possibilities discussed in this and other Mudcat threads such as the fifth/fifteenth Brigade confusion which I think address some of his doubts about the XV song. Does anyone have anything more to add about the Dutch writer (if he was the writer).

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & n
From: Newport Boy
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:07 PM

Geoff

I was hoping that someone would state conclusively the year in which the Seeger/Asch recording was issued or made because the difference in the 1940/1943 dates given above means that Pete Seeger or a brigader friend either had a few months or a few years to originate this version of the song if it had not been sung while the war was being fought.

I'm always reluctant to claim "conclusively". I have the Naxos reissue of the Almanac's "Sea, Soil & Struggle", and the notes say:

"Songs of the Lincoln Battalion was recorded by Moe Asch in 1942 at the request of veterans of the Spanish Civil War."

The track details for Viva la Quince Brigada give "Asch 330-1, mx BR 4". This may be a reference in the Syracuse University - Belfer Audio Laboratory and Archive, who provided the original 78s for the Naxos CD. (Unfortunately, their library system is down for maintenance at present)

There's no credit for the words, so the general note applies "all songs are traditional or otherwise of unknown origin."

It's very difficult to pin down the date - the internal evidence is conflicting. Most, if not all, of the Almanacs recordings were in 1941 and 1942 (up to June).

The early recordings included Millard Lampell, one of the founder members, who does not appear on Songs of the Lincoln Battalion, so that might indicate a later date.

On the other hand, I haven't seen any reference to Asch's recordings of the Almanacs after mid-1941, other than the Naxos note.

In various discographies I've looked at, for the Almanacs and individual members, Songs of the Lincoln Battalion seems to be missing.

Perhaps we'll never know for sure.

Phil

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & n
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 08 - 04:49 PM

Effsee
I do indeed, thanks for that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: Effsee
Date: 14 May 08 - 02:26 PM

Jim, I think you mean (the late) Bob Cooney of Aberdeen, who was a friend of the Campbells.

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & n
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 08 - 01:38 PM

Geoff,
No, my dad was Jim - same as me, my grandfather, great... ad infinitum - too lazy to think of another one, I guess.
His nickname was 'Scotty' as he was born in Glasgow, though he had a broad Liverpool accent. He is mentioned in Alvah Bessie's book, 'Men in Battle' (p 82 7 Seas edition) as 'a young Scots lad fast asleep and dribbling) on the train journey over the Pyrenees.
Monique,
Thank you a million times - the end of a long search!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: Monique
Date: 14 May 08 - 08:30 AM

Jim's post

This one would be a variant of "Si me quieres escribir, ya sabes mi paradero":

En el monte de Naranco
Hay una fuente que mana
Sangre de los Asturianos,
Que murieron en batalla.

Si me quieres escribir
Ya sabes mi paradero
En San Pedro de Cadenas (Google doesn't seem to know about it)
Sin tabaco y sin dinero


Un inglés vino a Bilbao:

Un inglés vino a Bilbao / por ver la ría y el mar / y al ver a las bilbainicas, / ya no se quiso marchar / Vale más una bilbainica / con su cara bonita, / con su gracia y su sal, / que todas las americanas / con su inmenso caudal. (ter.).
Trad.
An Englishman came to Bilbao / to see the river mouth and the sea/ and when he saw the Bilbao girls, / he didn't want to leave. / I'd better a Bilbao girl / with her pretty face, / with her grace and her charm / than all the American girls / with their immense wealth.

(lousy) sheet music here (when here, click the pdf format)

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:34 AM

Hi Jim, would your dad be Peter Carroll who wrote 'The Odyssey of the Lincoln Brigade' which I have seen quoted in books on the Spanish Civil War? If your dad came back singing 'Viva La Quince Brigada' that would seem to indicate that the song was sung in Spain and that my idea of its being an adaptation originating from Pete Seeger after the war is mistaken.

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:56 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quince

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & n
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 May 08 - 03:10 AM

My father was a volunteer in Spain, where he was wounded and imprisoned until the end of the war.
He came back with a number of songs including 'Viva la Quince Brigada' which, to my eternal shame, I took no great interest in when I was younger, and so never learned or recorded.
I do remember him singing them around and even 'osmosised' some of them, though, as I have no Spanish, the memories are phonetic.
I am pretty sure 'Viva' was pretty much as Joe gives it, with the addition of a couple of verses I never managed to pick up; one containing a reference to 'reckatays' (hand grenades) (that's how it sounded to me), and another he would never explain as he said "it contained words I should never use" - he was rather strict on that sort of thing.
I would appreciate help with a couple of other songs he had.
One started (again phonetic);

En el Monte de Narranco aye,
Una quente ce mana
Sangre de los Asturiano,
Que muereron en battalia.

Trans;
In the Mountains of Narranco
There is a fountain
That gives forth blood of the Asturians
Who died in battle there.

If you want to write to me,
And you don't know where I am,
In San Perdro De Cadenya (Saint Peter of the Chains),
Without tobacco or money.

Another he called 'An Englishman came to Bilbao' I can only remember the tune for.
Apologies to all for the efforts at spelling.

My father had a pretty hard time in San Sebastian prison in Spain and it was often difficult to get him to talk about it.
He was traumatized by having to witness the execution of dozens of young men, little more than children, who had been arrested in a village in the area. The local priest insisted on their execution because he was afraid he would be identified as a collaborator if the war went the wrong way for him.
When he returned from Spain my father found himself with a MI5 record as 'a premature anti-fascist', which he was extremely proud of, though it did get him blacklisted from work.
The only employment he could get was away from home with Wimpey and MacAlpine, so my sister and I hardly knew him till I was 14, when he finally came home.
I have a recording of a radio programme somewhere on the songs of the Spanish Civil War, made by Jim Lloyd and based on the experiences of Joe Cooney, a friend of The Ian Campbell Folk Group, which I will try and dig out, if anybody is interested.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 12 May 08 - 07:30 AM

Here is a You tube link to Pete Seeger performing the XV song with his grandson Tao in which he says the song was taught to him by friends in the Lincoln Battalion, but is it conclusive.

Pete Seeger

I was hoping that someone would state conclusively the year in which the Seeger/Asch recording was issued or made because the difference in the 1940/1943 dates given above means that Pete Seeger or a brigader friend either had a few months or a few years to originate this version of the song if it had not been sung while the war was being fought. (the International Brigades were withdrawn from combat in September 1938 and then repatriated before the war ended in April 1939)

La Lutta Continua

Geoff

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: Monique
Date: 11 May 08 - 07:01 PM

His explanation makes sense. Translation of the last verse but one "Ya salimos de España" = "We already leave Spain": the 1st person of plural of indicative present and of indicative preterit are the same. So, whether it is "We already left Spain" as in Joe's translation or "ya we're leaving Spain" (in present tense, I feel "ya" more as "at last" than as "already"), the war is over.
Letra (sing.) = lyrics (pl.)

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:28 PM

p.s. In the phrase "..popular song with many letters and different versions.." "many letters" is a very literal translation of "muchas letras". The sense is simply "many lines".

Regards

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 May 08 - 05:14 PM

On the face of it, Eduardo's translation of the verse referred to is closer to the original than that given by Joe. I'm assuming "juchar" is an error. His interpretation seems to me to make sense.

Regards

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 11 May 08 - 04:54 PM

I am reproducing, below, the reply from,ALTEVOZ DEL FRENTE,the site to which Monique's link leads.
This favours the idea that the song in praise of the XV is a post civil war adaptation from Pete Seeger on the grounds of some of the words, although these words don't seem to be identical to the one's that Joe gives above for the Seeger song. I also notice that the writer gives 1943 as the date of the Asch recording which is different from yours Joe ? There remains open the question of whether someone, perhaps Pete Seeger merely added a verse referring to the post civil war role of the brigaders or whether they changed the whole song from The Quinta To the Quince Brigada.

So I would still like to know for certain

Was VIVA LA QUINCE BRIGADA sung IN SPAIN while the Spanish Civil war was STILL being fought?

From: Altavozdelfrente.org
To: Lawes
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Viva La Quince Brigade


Sorry, but I don´t speak english although I can understand you email. I apologize for my bad English. Try to answer with the help of a translator online.

I do not have a definitive answer to your question. In my opinion "Long Live The Fifteenth Brigade" is not singing during the Spanish civl war. It was a Seeger´s adaptation from the song "Ay Carmela" (popular song with many letters and different versions) and it was recorded in 1943 in Asch Records for the album "Songs of the Lincoln Brigade."

Look this verse:

"Ya salimos de España,
para luchar en otros frentes
Ay Manuela, Ay Manuela"

"We already leave Spain,
to fight on other fronts
Manuela Ay, Ay Manuela "

This ("We already leave Spain") indicates that "Long Live The Fifteenth Brigade" is later than end of the Spanish Civil War.

Salud.

Eduardo
www.altavozdelfrente.org


In Spanish.

Lo siento, no hablo inglés aunque puedo comprender su email. Intentaré contestar con la ayuda de un traductor online.

No tengo una respuesta definitiva a su pregunta. En mi opinión "Viva la Quince Brigada" no se cantó en el transcuros de la Guerra Civil. Es una adpatación que hizo Pete Seeger de la canción "Ay, Carmela" (canción popular que tenia muchas letras y diferentes versiones). Segeer grabó esta versión en 1943, en los estudios de Asch Records para el disco "Songs of the Lincoln Brigade".

Si nos basamos en la estrofa:

"Ya salimos de España,
para luchar en otros frentes"

veremos que se refiere al final de la guerra, por lo cual entiendo que no se cantó durante la guerra civl.

Salud.

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 09 May 08 - 08:08 PM

I have emailed that site Monique and I am awaiting their reply

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 08 May 08 - 04:16 AM

Thanks Monique and Boy -Geoff

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: Monique
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:13 PM

Guys, the Spanish site about the Civil War songs is temporarily closed but you can still email them.

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & n
From: Newport Boy
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:34 AM

Another possible source of information is a Sing Out reprint from about 1961-63 (sorry I can't be more certain of the date).

This was where I first heard of the song, and I'm fairly certain that the notes about it were written by Pete Seeger. If someone has access to the reprints, or the original issue, they might check,

Phil

Subject: RE: ADD: Viva la Quinta Brigada (Christy Moore & not)
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 07 May 08 - 08:20 AM

Thanks for the notes from the Asch Recording of Pete Seeger singing Viva La Quince Brigade Joe. The original issue date of the Seeger recording, being 1940, is very close to the war but is, of course, post war.

The notes saying 'it was most frequently sung on the march.', suggest that the song was actually sung during the war which ended on April 1st 1939 and as Padre, and others on other Mudcat threads, suggest some of the songs on the Asch record were recorded in Spain while the war was still going on.However, Viva La Quince Brigada as sung by Pete Seeger on the Asch record was not recorded in Spain as the war went on.

However, I still have a suspicion that the song praising the XV Brigade was a post civil war variation of a song sung during the war in praise of the V Brigade. Perhaps Pete Seeger is the author of the Quince variation since he is the person who seems to be the earliest person noted as singing the song.Is anyone in a position to ask him?

To restate my original question rephrased in the light of the above revelations,

Was VIVA LA QUINCA BRIGADA sung IN SPAIN while the Spanish Civil war was STILL being fought? Or was it a song adapted and adopted after the war,possibly originating outside of Spain, possibly originated by Pete Seeger ?

La lutta continua, Geoff

Subject: ADD: El Quinto Regimiento
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 May 08 - 01:07 AM

Here's something to add to the confusion:

El Quinto Regimiento El diez y ocho dia de julio En el patio de un convento, El pueblo madrileño Fondo el Quinto Regimiento. Chorus: Venga, jaleo, jaleo - Sueño de una ametralladora, Y Franco se va paseo Y Franco se va paseo. Con Lister Campesino, Con Galan y Modesto, Con el comandante Carlos, No hay miliciano con miedo. (Repeat Chorus) Son los cuatro batallones Que Madrid estan defendiendo; Se va lo mejor de España, La flor mas roja del pueblo. (Repeat Chorus) Con el quinto, quinto, quinto, Con el Quinto Regimiento, Madre, yo me voy al frente Porque quiero entrar en fuego. (Repeat Chorus)

THE FIFTH REGIMENT On the eighteenth of July In a lovely Spanish patio, Madrid's anti-fascist heroes Formed the Quinto Regimiento. Chorus: Come and be happy, be happy (or Venga, jaleo, jaleo) Hear that avenging machine gun It will be the end of Franco! It will be the end of Franco! With Lister and Campesino, With Galan and with Modesto, With the great commander Carlos, There is none who fears the battle. (Repeat Chorus) In the four heroic batallions Madrid so bravely defending Fighting in Spain's fiercest battles Are the bravest of every village. (Repeat Chorus) With the quinto, quinto, quinto With the Quinto Regimiento For the front, madre, I'm leaving For I, too, would kill the Fascists (Repeat Chorus)

Notes:

QUINTO REGIMIENTO (Fifth Regiment). The Fifth Regiment was formed by the Spanish Communist Party in July, 1936, the first month of Franco's rebellion, and by December was the backbone of the defense of Madrid with 70,000 men. Other political parties (Socialist, Anarchist, Republican) also recruited their own membership but these early, purely political units were broken up and reorganized in 1937 and put under unified command. (Cf. Lift Every Voice., ed. Irwin Silber, NY, People's Artists, Inc., 1953). This song is also a melodic composite, the first part being an Andalusian fo1k-song, "El Vito," the second, beginning with "Venga jaleo..." derives from a tune called "El Contrabandista." The words of course, are new and were supplied at the time and place, but the composite may have been known in Spain earlier, with an older set of lyrics.

Subject: ADD: Viva la Quince Brigada(Seeger recording)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 May 08 - 11:14 PM

Viva la Quince Brigada

Viva la quince brigada, Rùmbala, Rùmbala, Rùmbala (Repeat) Que se ha cubierta de gloria, Ay Mañuela, ay Mañuela! (Repeat) Luchamos contra los moros, Rùmbala, Rùmbala, Rùmbala (Repeat) Mercenarios y fascistas, Ay Mañuela, ay Mafluela! (Repeat) Solo es nuestro deseo, Rùmbala, Rùmbala, Rùmbala (Repeat) Acabar con el fascismo, Ay Mañuela, ay Mañuela! (Repeat) En los frentes de Jarama, Rùmbala, Rùmbala, Rùmbala (Repeat) No tenemos ni aviones Ni tanques, ni caioñes, Ay Mañuela! (Repeat) Ya salimos de España, Rùmbala, Rùmbala, Rùmbala (Repeat) Para Juchar en otros frentes, Ay Mañuela, ay Mañuela! (Repeat)

Long live our Fifteenth Brigade, boys Rumbala, rumbala, rumbala (Repeat) For her name is grand and glorious, Ay Manula, Ay Manuela! (Repeat) 'Gainst the Moors we aim our rifles, Rumbala, rumbala, rumbala (Repeat) Death to the hirelings of the Fascists Ay Manuela, Ay Manuela! (Repeat) We have only one desire, Rumbala, rumbala, rumbala (Repeat) Forever end the Fascist terror, Ay Manuela, Ay Manuela! (Repeat) At Jararna we are standing Rumbala, rumbala, rumbala (Repeat) And we have no planes above us, Not a tank, nor any cannons, Ay Manuela! (Repeat) We have left the Spanish trenches, Rumbala, rumbala, rumbala (Repeat) To fight the Fascists where we find them, Ay Manula, Ay Manuela! (Repeat)

Lyrics from the liner notes from the 1961 Folkways album, Songs of the Spanish Civil War (originally issued by Asch Records in 1940 as Songs of the Lincoln Battalion

Notes: La Quince Brigade (15th Brigade), more frequently knowan by its haunting refrain, "Ay Manuela," derives from an old Spanish folk song. (cf. People's Song Book, p. 42). Like "Quinto Regimiento and "Spanish Marching Song" (Si mi quieres escribir"), it was most frequently sung on the march.

Subject: RE: Viva La Quinta Brigada not Christy Moore
From: Padre
Date: 06 May 08 - 10:24 PM

There was/is a Folkways album called 'Songs of the Spanish Civil War,' recorded at the time the war was going on in the 1930s. One side is Pete Seeger and some other singers (Almanacs?) doing a number of songs including The 15th Brigade. The other side has Ernst Busch singing (live from the front I believe) 'Six Songs for Democracy' including The Peat Bog Soldiers and Hans Beimler, and at one point the sound of gunfire can be heard in the background.

Padre

Subject: RE: Viva La Quinta Brigada not Christy Moore
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 May 08 - 08:33 PM

I know The Dubliners did ONE version on their album 'Forty Years' - Thats has 'Viva la Quinte Brigada' as the title . IF thats any help . And on 'We Shall Overcome' - Pete seeger has Vive La Quince Brigada !

Subject: RE: Viva La Quinta Brigada not Christy Moore
From: Joe_F
Date: 06 May 08 - 08:29 PM

I do not know Spanish, but I know the song, and I believe the word is actually "quince".

Subject: RE: Viva La Quinta Brigada not Christy Moore
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 06 May 08 - 08:01 PM

I have just looked at the title that I gave this thread and of course I have already started the process of confusion because I put Quinta when I meant to put Quinca. Perhaps it illustrates my suspicion that the provenance of this song and perhaps its history owes a lot to the vagueness of English speakers dealing with Spanish.

Subject: Viva La Quinta Brigada not Christy Moore
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 06 May 08 - 07:51 PM

Can anyone who knows about Spanish folk music tell me whether there was a version of the traditional Ay Carmela! song about the FIFTEENTH International Brigade that was actually sung DURING the Spanish Civil War. There is great confusion and masses of speculation surrounding this song on Mudcat and in other places. I don't want to add to the confusion with this new post and I don't want to be rude, but anything about the completely different Christy Moore song with the same title,VIVA LA QUINCA BRIGADA,is not relevent and has many Mudcat threads devoted to it already.

From what I have so far read on the song/s, I know that there was a version of the Ay Carmela! song written and sung in 1936 in praise of the Fifth ( Quinta) Brigade. I know that since the war finished a song in praise of the Fifteenth (Quinca) Brigade has been sung, somtimes in connection with International Brigade re-unions. The question is 'Was VIVA LA QUINCA BRIGADA sung while the Spanish Civil war was still being fought or was it a song adapted and adopted after the war?
Regards, Geoff

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Apr 06 - 01:12 PM

Both songs may even be identical (with the usual variations) and about the same brigade, Wilfried.

The 15th brigade (altogether) was the 5th (international) brigade.

Look my longer post in the other thread for such a speculation.

Does anyone know more?

Wolfgang

---

Threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 03:34 AM

There are two brigades documented by their songs, the quinta = 5th and the quince=15th.
Q just gave the link to the 5th brigade song.
Here is the link to the 15th brigade song
Both songs have some similar stanzas; nothing new in the history of folk songstransformed for special units or events.
Both songs are sung to the tune of the Ebro Army (the Carmela).
To answer future possible questions: There also is a 5th regiment, sung to the tune of the old Spanish song, or dance, "el Vito" (St Vitus' dance)

More informations about units of the Spanish Republican Army may be found here: Foro por la memoria". Use the search box, upper right.

Subject: LYR. ADD: VIVA LA QUINTA BRIGADA
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 01:03 AM

Sorcha gave a link to the Spanish "Viva la quinta brigada"(var. of "Ay Carmela") but it has changed: http://lacucaracha.info/scw/music/lyrics/quinta_brigada.htm
Viva la quinta brigada

Based on the old song of the partisans who fought against Napoleon's army in 1808. "Ay Carmela," thread 90954: Ay Carmela

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Compton
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM

I think I have a steam driven L.P by Birmingham band of long ago, Ian Campbell Folk Group, (Dad of Ali) with swarbrick, etc...where they sang the lot in Spanish. Didn't understand a word of it until now.

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 05:41 PM

belfast, your guess may be more likely than mine, of course. Still, no need to do down the Irish! :-))) I just thought, if no one referred to the discrepancy I'd have to be VERY clear to get a reaction ... Thanks for explanation and translation - I'll put them with the song.

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 02:34 PM

I wonder though, who were those two Irish "fascists" who lost their lives? Not even worthy of having their names recorded? They fought for a cause they (not I) believed in, who can ask for more?                                                               

In my lifetime (born after the end of the SCW, just!) the Catholic Church in Ireland, and probably all around the world, was still praying for "the conversion of Russia" - a statement of fact, not a criticism.

One thing is certain: a guy that we have been discussing on another thread would, undoubtedly, have supported the "fascists": Sean South.

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: belfast
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:53 AM

And I've just reread this line two posts back - Christy Moore definitely refers to the fifth international brigade, so they must have existed!

I hope and trust, Susanne, that this remark is meant ironically, satirically. You do know, don't you, that Christy is Irish.

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: belfast
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 07:45 AM

In the book "Christy Moore: One Voice" Christy gives the title of the song as "Viva La Quinte Brigada" and tells us that he got the info for the song from "The Connolly Column" by Mick O'Riordan. He does not tell us where he got the word "quinte". My guess is that back in the 60's he heard the earlier version of the song in England from, another guess, the Ian Campbell Folk Group and misheard or misremembered the title. His song does refer, in English, to the Fifteenth Brigade in which the Irish volunteers fought.

At the end of each thread here there is a link to a translation thingummy. I am unable to vouch for these translations but if they are correct the only phrase that makes grammatical sense, "viva la quinta brigada", does not make historical sense.

fifteenth international brigade: décimo quinta brigada internacional
fifth international brigade: quinto brigada internacional
viva la quince brigada: the fifteen brigade lives
viva la quinta brigada: the fifth brigade lives
viva la quinte brigada: brigade lives quinte

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Big Tim
Date: 11 Jan 03 - 03:16 AM

MacEoin's IRA history, page 388, speaks only of the "International Brigade" and states "reports were received that on February 6 [1937] of the deaths of four men of the International Brigade, serving on the Jarama and Cordova front, south of Madrid. Their names were: Dan Boyle of Belfast, Frank Conroy of Kildare, Bill Beattie of Belfast and John Meehan of Galway".

Bell's IRA history refers to "the James Connolly Battalion of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade"..."ultimately some four hundred Irishmen, most of them old IRA men, would make their way to Spain and the International Brigades...42 were killed, 12 captured, including Frank Ryan, 114 wounded. Their record was in stark contrast to O'Duffy's Brigade, which fought only two brief actions: the first with a Nationalist unit from the Canary Islands resulted in the only battle deaths - two....most of the time was spent on a quiet sector of the line".

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 08:32 PM

Which gives me a chance to ask: Toadfrog has explained about the fifteenth international brigade - but who were the fifth? An exclusively Irish unit? Google doesn't yield anything, but Christy Moore definitely refers to the fifth international brigade, so they must have existed!

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: MikeOQuinn
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 05:00 AM

Wow... a re-awakening of this thread after a really long time.

I just stopped by to see if I could find the lyrics to this song (the one posted by Masato), which I have a recording of by Carlos Nuñez on his CD Os Amores Libres (Our Free Loves, Galician dialect, if I'm not mistaken). Speaking Spanish (working slowly on Gaelic - not enough teachers in this area), I found the idea of the Irish/Spanish song to be intriguing, and one that I just *had* to sing.

Couple of notes on translations, though, just in case anyone's still interested...

The Fifth International Brigade would, indeed, be the Quinta Brigada Internacional. So if you are singing the song posted above by Masato, quinta is the word you're looking for. (wow... lots of typefaces used in there...)

As for the question of verde or verda, which has mostly been answered already, while the word verde is used to indicate color, verdo and verda are used to indicate truth (opposites of falso).

I don't know if anyone's posted the translation of the chorus lines, so here they are:

¡Viva la Quinta Brigada!
"¡No pasaran!", the pledge that made them fight
"¡Adelante!" was the cry around the hillside,
Let us all remember them tonight

¡Long live the Fifth Brigade!
"¡They will not pass!", the pledge that made them fight
"¡Charge!" was the cry around the hillside,
Let us all remember them tonight

Some of that is taken more loosely, so as to give a better idea of the context, but that should be pretty acurate.

Best wishes, all.
-J

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:17 PM

Thanks for those who answered my grammatical and translation question; I was looking for a good pun, and with your help, found one.

By the way, if this isn't a private row, maybe yiz'd be so kind as to allow me in?

Peace in Ireland? Hah! The other night a bunch of men with baseball bats broke down the door of a home in which a 15-year-old boy was living. They chased him up to his bedroom, where they beat him with the baseball bats, bruising him all over, and breaking an arm and a leg.

I don't call that peace.

I don't know which particular brand of sectarian bigots claiming to be the law in their community these were, but it's not any kind of peacemaking I want in my home.

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 08:00 PM

Guest Jaramá . This entire thread is an attempt to discuss matters in a historical context. So whats your problem ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Art Thieme
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 07:00 PM

I would like to jump in to suggest a fine book I recently read. The author is Milton Wolff, the ninth and last commander of the Lincoln and Wahington Battalions in Spain. (He is now the leader of the Veterans Of The Abraham Lincoln Brigade.)

The book is ANOTHER HILL. It is written as an autobiographical novel. Published by the University Of Illinois Press. www.press.illinois.edu I, like Ring Lardner Jr., felt that it was "the best book on the American involvement in Spain I've ever read." Please, do not let the fact that this is called a fictional-autobiography deter you from reading this. Our government in the U.S. called them "premature anti-fascists" and discredited all those that returned. But Mr. Wolff manages, in his book, to give just about every side of the many coins in circulation in that sad war. It isn't one sided at all !!! I can't say that forcefully enough.

I really do recommend it.

Art Thieme

www.press.illinois.edu

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:17 PM

Christy Moore's song is much more about Ireland than it is about Spain really.

There's peace in Ireland between the children of those who fought on both sides in Spain's Civil War, and even of those who fought on both sides in Ireland's one back in the 20s.

And please God in time the same will be true of the one we're still trying to get out from under.

And all that is part of what Christy's song is about.

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: GUEST,Jaramá
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 08:59 PM

Would a native speaker of Spanish confuse "quince" and "quinta" ? I do not think so.
This hymn of abuse has all the hallmarks of an outsider with his own agenda.
The combatants of the First and Second World Wars have made their peace. The Spanish have made their own internal peace . Why is it that foreigners seek to keep alive the bloodletting of a civil war which was none of their business in the first instance.
Go away and leave us alone.
Jaramá

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:59 PM

Unfortunately, where Politics is concerned, and the Spanish Civil War is politics, tunes and spontanueus songs get hijacked.

But I think that Potatoe Jones, and the crew of the "Marie Llewellyn" deserve a better memorial than a gravestone at Kefnig Hill.

Gareth ( Master and Owner of the Sloop " Marie Llewellyn")

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:43 AM

Quince is Fifteen.
Decimoquinta is Fifteenth.

Which still leaves open whether Quince or Quinta is the preferred way to abbreviate it in a song...

I suppose one way would be to decide that it's Qunce for the older song and Quinta for the newer one?

Subject: RE: Help: Viva la Quinta Brigada
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 02:41 AM

This song happens to have several versions, as usual with so many folk songs, depending on the different situations and units. The original (?) song (The Carmela) I heard in Tunis sung by a pretty Spanish student in 1969. It runs like in Sorcha's source, but starting with "el Exercito del Ebro". So also on a disc with songs of the Republican Army recorded by a French team during the war and published about 1937/38.

Wilfried