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BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun'
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Subject: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:13 PM Yep, I know this is going to be hard to believe but Secretary of State, Colin Powell, just last night picked up his phone to call Mario's to have a pizza delivered and when he picked up the phone he heard twp Iraqi's talking with one another about tricking the inspectors. Yep, what are the changes? Well, I'm wonderin' myself why someone with that position wouldn't have the dough to buy real phone serivce. You know, like with no party lines. But that Powell is one wacky dude. So according to Powell, he is going to take this information to the United Nations as "Exhibit A" to try to get a resolution to invade Iraq. Well, danged, I reckon now Iz convinced! I mean like every Iraqi is talkin' 'bout how they faked out the inspectors aznd if there's one thing that bugs me, its a bunch of gossipers. Heck, that's grounds for war right there, as far as I can see. Bunch of danged gossipin' Iraqis. I mean, why even wait for the UN. Nuke 'em... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: katlaughing Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM This is a joke, right?! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:38 PM Well, Kat, according to the Washington Times, the ultra Republican newsrag, the US has tape of a conversation between two Iraqi *officials* bragging about how the inspectors missed this and that. You'll be hearing more of this later tonight on the news, I'm sure. Ahhh, as fir the nukes and the gossip. Heck, you know I ain't into hurtin' nuthin'. As fir the gissip, I heard from neighbor who knows this feller who has it one some purdy danged reliable source that CarolC and Jack the Sailor are foolin' 'round. And ya' know, my buddy over at the hardware says that GUEST and Teribus are the same person. Tsk, can you beeeelieeeve taht? And my wife's hairdresser says mthat Amos.... Oh, better not go there... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:48 PM The very same Washington Times newspaper that is owned by the Moonie cult, whose stated purpose is the destruction of the US in order to make way for the new Messiah, the Reverand Moon, who will be the "father" of the new human family? Was it that Washington Times newspaper you read it in, Bobert? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Ebbie Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:52 PM WASHINGTON/ AP - Photographs of mobile biological weapons installations and transcripts of overheard conversations among Iraqi officials are part of the evidence Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) will present to convince allies that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) is defying the United Nations (news - web sites), an administration official said Monday. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 03 Feb 03 - 02:57 PM Yup. But Moon and the Republicans must be on the same page because everything Bush does... they praise. And you know what they did to Clinton. Heck, Clinton could have stumbles on a cure for AIDS and they wouldn't have said anything about it. On the other hand, the aliens could have invaded the Earth but the headlines would read "Clinton did this" or "Clinton did that". The only reason I look at it is to see what the real *looney-tune righties* are up to. Hey, they *do* get the sports scores right! Ahhh, make that correct. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:10 PM Yeah. So I guess if their stated goal is the destruction of the US, and if they consistently agree with everything the Republicans do, I guess that must mean that the Moonies think that the kinds of things the Republicans have been and are doing, will help to bring about the destruction of the US. Hmmmmm... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:17 PM Hmmmmmmm, too... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: gnu Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:20 PM So, the Washington Times is a "rag" ? Thanks CC. Good to know. On a more reliable note, 16 February is a full moon. Lock and load. Or duck and cover, as the case may be. Kinda funny, and not HaHa funny, that President's day is 17 February. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: beadie Date: 03 Feb 03 - 03:30 PM Funny thing about guns . . . . . . they rarely smoke unless someone has pulled the trigger recently. It seems that the "smoking gun" metaphor is particularly inapt for this set of circumstances. Perhaps looking for a gunbarrel with powder residue from a long-past firing would be a more appropriate way to paint the picture. But then, again, we all knew that Hussein did all those evil things way back when. The only value to creating the image of an immediate threat is to justify a war that is, in the Administration's view, a necessary precondition to re-establishing a formal western (spell that: US) presence in the Middle East (other than Israel) for any of a number of purposes; strategic advantage, oil, political stability, oil, revenge, oil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Mark Cohen Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:25 PM Hey, the U.S. knows, that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. After all, we have the receipts! Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Mark Cohen Date: 03 Feb 03 - 05:27 PM That is to say, The U.S. knows that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction. After all, we have the receipts! Aloha, Mark master of comedic timing |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:12 PM C. Powell is making Crow tonight for dinner stuffed & with all the trimmings. He's inviting most of the leaders of Europe over but all declined replying that he should invite Busk over, that they don't have the appetite for it & besides feathers hanging from the mouth is all the rage at the White House tonight. Thanks, Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:16 PM Okay, Barry, I asked on another thread what you meant. I hadn't heard of the dinner party. If I had, I'd have sent a good recipe for crow. I've had a share of it in my day. Ain't too bad but I gotta agree with ya' that the feathers are hard to get down... So what's the rest of the story?... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Frankham Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:27 PM "WASHINGTON/ AP - Photographs of mobile biological weapons installations and transcripts of overheard conversations among Iraqi officials are part of the evidence Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) will present to convince allies that Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) is defying the United Nations (news - web sites), an administration official said Monday. " Does anyone remember the news item that drew quite a controversy about Iraqi soldiers throwing babies out of respirators in hospitals? Turns out that was a manufactured bit of propaganda that hit the media. Later, turned out that it was made up. To paraphrase Tom Lehrer in his comment on the internet that might be applied to certain newspapers: Those that bother to read those newspapers deserve all the misinformation they get. (that is of course if they believe it). Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: TIA Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:27 PM "...if I can't find a reindeer, I'll make one instead!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Alice Date: 03 Feb 03 - 08:39 PM The Washington Times, United Press International, Insight Magazine are some of many, many front groups for "father" Moon and the Moonies. The long list of front groups can be found at this link. It is a deliberate practice of Moon to set up nice sounding organizations and get celebrities to speak at their gathings (George Bush senior and Barbara Bush among others). http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/moonies/moonies.htm ---------- Moonies use Washington Times as Front Group to Gain Power and Legitimacy On Tuesday, May 21st 2002, controversial religious figurehead, alleged cult leader and self-proclaimed Messiah Sun Myung Moon, is to sponsoring a banquet celebrating the newspaper's 20th anniversary. A substantial list of host Senators, Representatives and other politicians think they are supporting just a conservative newspaper, but are unwittingly endorsing the Moon agenda. Mr. Moon has used the newspaper along with U.P.I. to develop his power base for his ambitions–to establish and "automatic theocracy" in which he runs the world. Despite a politically conservative pro-family slant, the Times has also been the paper of choice for several Christian groups who are apparently unaware of Moon's true theology. "The public thinks that the Moonies have gone away. They haven't. They have been quite busy in recent years, focusing their recruitment efforts to politicians, business people and even Christian clergy," says Steven Hassan, former Moonie, author, licensed counselor and mind control expert. "They are still deceptive and quite dangerous," Hassan says, "Back in 1974-1976, Moon talked about setting up a global infrastructure so that when the world economy faltered, we would be there to feed people and give them jobs." Moon's stated ambitions include the establishment of a one-world government run as an automatic theocracy by Moon and his leaders. "Bush's faith-based initiative seems to be ideal to help them in their quest for a one world theocratic government," Hassan says, "I am sure President Bush is not aware that Moon has repeatedly said that America (and democracy) is Satanic." Moon's vision of the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth includes the absorption of all the world religions into Unificationism as well as the abolishment of all languages except Korean. Core Moonie members do a ritual pledge service every Sunday morning, bowing before an altar with Moon's picture on it and promising to fight for the Fatherland (Korea). Moon is an 82-year old Korean billionaire and convicted felon who served 13 months in federal prison for income tax evasion and conspiracy in the mid-1980s. Moon owns the Washington Times newspaper, U.P.I., Insight magazine, The University of Bridgeport (CT) and The New Yorker Hotel. His empire was part of a 1977-78 congressional investigation which looked at Korean CIA activities in the United States (list of front groups and report is on Freedomofmind.com). Tens of thousands of families have suffered because of the deceptive, mind control practices of the Moon organization. Members are told their parents are Satanic and are kept, sometimes for years, from visiting their families. While the Moonies have only several thousand dedicated American members now, there are an estimated 70,000 former members in the United States alone. Many of these people are still suffering from their involvement with the cult. The Moonies are actively recruiting in Africa, South America, China and the former Communist countries and have an estimated 100,000 members worldwide. While Moon professes upholding high family values to others, he is a hypocrite with major family problems of his own. His "blessed" eldest son, Hyo Jin (by second wife) are long divorced. According to ex-wife Nansook Hong's book, "In the Shadow of the Moons," Hyo Jin was physically violent, emotionally abusive, had a cocaine problem and has been arrested several times. In 1999, Moon's son, Youngjin P. Moon, then 21, committed suicide by jumping out of a Reno hotel window. Sun Myung Moon and his wife are considered to be "sinless" and are called the "True Parents" of humankind. He claims to be the new Christ and is fulfilling what Jesus failed to accomplish. In fact, Moon believes that until he married Jesus to a Korean church member, Jesus was unable to enter "Heaven". "I am certain that people are not aware of the real theology of Moon, says Hassan. "What people have to understand is that destructive cults use deception. Back in 1974, I was told that The One World Crusade, was "not religious at all." As a Jew, I would never have agreed to be involved if I had known what the group was really about. Throughout its history, the Moon organization has been involved with many questionable activities. The 1977-78 congressional investigation into KCIA activities in the United States stated it had found evidence that the group had systematically violated numerous federal and state laws. Moon eventually was convicted and spent thirteen months in jail for conspiracy to evade taxes. In Japan, his church has been the subject of the largest consumer fraud scam in Japanese history in which tens of thousands of people were manipulated into giving large sums of money to "liberate their suffering ancestors." "Moon has not changed his desire to convert the world," warns Hassan. "Responsible people need to stand up for the principles of freedom and democracy, and not be deceived and manipulated like I was." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 03 Feb 03 - 09:11 PM Alice, Dallas Alice: Yeah, I've known since the Washington Times came to DC that it was a "Moonie" rag. JUst couldn't understand why it reads just like a Repub. campaign newsletter. Seems that the *intolerant* love the *intolerannt*. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Barry Finn Date: 03 Feb 03 - 11:23 PM It appears that China, Russia, France & Germany will not support war at present. Germany is the President of the Security Council for this month which, as far as I understand gives them a little more pull. Of the five (the Americans & British are the other 2) who have a perminent vote with veto powers there's 3 that state NO. Of the other 15 members the US would need 9 members, which does't fly if there's a veto & France has already stated it will use it's veto powers against war. Granted there has been some support for Bush by some other nations (not 9 though) but most will not give support against the UN's vote. On a different front it seems as if we're starting to alienate NETO, not good for Bush & Co. My belief is that Bush, Powell & others thought they would eventually win over the UN. It seems that as the US sticks it's hand out to grasp it's prize that more & more it's slipping further from reach. I think that today Powell was hit with this reality. This is the way events appear to me. It may not be as I see it but I'm hoping. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bullfrog Jones Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:34 AM I love the idea of these 'overheard' conversations -- it sounds like one of those convenient plot devices in a Famous Five book (maybe Nancy Drew was the same?) where our intrepid heroes eavesdrop on the baddies -- 'mutter mutter... WEAPONS INSPECTORS...mutter mutter..FOOLED THEM...mutter mutter...PLANS FOR WORLD DOMINATION...mutter mutter....MWAHAHAHAHA!!! BJ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Richie Date: 04 Feb 03 - 09:38 AM Bobert, I suggest you check out William Safire's Jan. 29 column about Abu Musaab and Saddam. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Peg Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:55 AM that "article" on Rev. Moon is very poorly written. Where did it come from? Is it meant to be an editorial? It reads more like a ranting press release. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:56 AM Here are a couple of URLs for the Moonies' website, Peg. The second link is to some of Rev. Moon's ideas, in his own words, about world domination... Unification Home Page God's Fatherland and the One World |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 05 Feb 03 - 12:55 PM I'm still watching the continued "live" coverage of the UN. Security Council and , so far , both China & Russia are willing to accept the current process of U.N. Inspections and are apparently letting Iraq off with 1st warning ( suggesting there would be 2nd & 3rd and perhaps indefinite subsequent warnings )& a probation of a manner. With all of the alterior motives ascribed to the U.S. 's agenda amounting to another "Waco"-style storming of Saddam's compound I have to ask why no one is willing to offer as much scrutiny to Russia's & China's alterior motives buttressing their U.N. Security Council recommendations. We all "should" know that Beijing has let it be known, in "no" uncertain terms that it "will" take back Taiwan by military means if necessary and it will t5olerate "no" interference from foreign; powers especially the U.S. Beijing is known for far wider reaching Totalitarina-style human rights abuses than Sadam's regime. It also knows that it is a "key" player in the North Korean "issue" of "proven" nuclear weapons production and "proliferation". It knows it "must" remain the key player in resolving the still "hot" real & present danger of N.Korea's nuclear weaponry production agenda. Witness that N.Korea is far further along in its declared agenda than Iraq was when Isreal chose to act upon its decision for a "unilateral pre-emptive" strike against the Osirac nuclear "energy" production plant in 1981( peaceful nuclear energy production in a nation with the 2nd largest private reserve of oil ). I must ask if those in this thread genuinely consider 'that" pre-emptive strike against Iraq's nuclear ambitions with the same vehemence that they now oppose anything beyond the present U.N. inspections "enemic" and woefully under-resourced system while having to try an out-think Saddam's hide & seek "cheating" on his own playing field. I ,personally , am for leaving the assembled troops in place to continue an even more vigorous "containment policy" while back-up making this a true and thorough "search & seizure" operation with the U.N.'s search warrant in hand....which is supposed to be what the U.N. inspection is 'supposed" to be all about. Ofcourse I've always been of the opinion that this should have been done back in 1991 after a Scharztkopf victory and cleaned out Saddam then. That oppurtunity has been lost forever and now we are here again, like it or not The French U.N. delegate just announced they recommend a far more rigorous inspection effort tripling the amount of resources with regular follow-up. This means even France determines Iraq "is" now considered a credable threat to global security and "has" been actively and conciously "thwarting" the collective U.N. efforts to enforce compliance. Let us all please remember that this "is" always been about the U.N. doing "its" job and fulfilling its mandate or it is a meaningless alternative to the kind of "unilateralism" that lies ahead ,say, if and when Beijing decides it can no longer wait for Taiwan to come back into the embrace the motherland mandate. Now Russia is known to have oil deals with the current Iraqi regime so it , along with France , has its proftable alternative motive to it's pre-scripted agenda. BTW: Anybody aware that these speeches were written for these U.N. reps "before" the Powell presentation. They are for ratcheting up far more rigorous "search & seizure" inspection "enforcement", but that's after the rather damning report that Hans Blix delivered over a week ago. ( Anybody read it ?) Right now I feel that these U.N. imspectors are even braver than the fallen Shuttle astronauts because they are the world's "canaries in the mine" , constantly under "armmed" monitoring, and with a cornered Saddam regime who has already shown how far he is willing to go to play the "illegal" weapons shell game. I can say illegal because it "is" the U.N.'s mandate that even the "obstuction" of the inspections ,let alone possession of production tools & materials, let alone finished weaponry ,is clear violation. Either you belive in the U.N. as the viable alternative to unilateral war or not. Whether the U.N. is up to carrying out its mandate remains to be seen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 05 Feb 03 - 01:12 PM I didn't watch the "Powell Show" because I knew it was going tobe more of the same. Sinister looking ariel photography which shows abosolutely nothing. Construction eqipement. Oh, how scarey. And a bunch of suppositions, unsupported aquisations and lots, no make that looks of "buzz words" that a team of psycologists and marketers have been testing on some control group hooked up with wires and monitors. What a load of crap. And, Tal, consider the reality the the US is the only *super power* and can make life pretty miserable for whom ever that want. Is it any wonder that other nations will soften their public positions the closer that the US get ready to unleash a fire storm in Bagdad that will rival Hiroshama in its destruction? Hey, I just heard a guy on Pacifica call in and say that he was a radical leftie (which I doubt...) who after hearing Powell's PR show says he now want's the US and just *do it*! Hmmmmmm? I wonder if the guy has given any thought to just how little the US has done diplomatically other that threaten Iraq under Bush? None! Zip! Zilch! Nada! That's how much! Resist insane foriegn policy.. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: JedMarum Date: 05 Feb 03 - 01:47 PM Powell's presentation was excellent. Forceful, fact-filled and wise. He will have the Sadam supporters at least squirming to find reasons to continue to hide their heads in the sand. There is no doubt about Iraq's continuing efforts to arm itself with terrible weapons - and there is on doubt about its intentions. Either the UN will take action or prove itself irrelevant ... either the way the US and its allies will take the action neccessary to stop Sadam. Well said Mr Powell! Thank you for your patience, for your effort and for your considerable talent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Frankham Date: 05 Feb 03 - 01:55 PM It seems to me that Powell was quoting sources that he didn't reveal. Aereal photography can be doctored. It's unfortunate that there is not real universal trust on the part of the American people for the speeches of Powell or any other administration "hawks".Their ranting seems to me an exercise in hysteria. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: JedMarum Date: 05 Feb 03 - 01:59 PM Most Americans by far support Powell and his points of view. The polls make clear the wide spread support for this administration's policies regarding Iraq. I'd be very surprised if today's presentation to the UN by Sec Powell did not bolster that support. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Wolfgang Date: 05 Feb 03 - 02:10 PM A quick-press analysis from Germany (I summarise in my words what DER SPIEGEL writes): A very impressive Colin Powell with some impressive documents. The taped conversations and the aerial photographs of trucks removing material just before the inspectors arrive are considered convincing. The case for the aluminium tubes necessary for nuclear bomb manufacture is considered much less convincing. The Saddam Osama link is considered completely unconvincing. All in all, DER SPIEGEL is convinced that Saddam cheats and hides soemthing, but we do not know what. The case for the USA would be stronger if they did not switch the reported reasons for tackling Saddam so often. (end of article summary) Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: DougR Date: 05 Feb 03 - 02:47 PM Wolfgang: I don't think it takes a brilliant mind to realize that what the U. S. wants is a regime change AND to destroy Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. I just hope you folks climb aboard eventually. Bobert: you didn't watch the Powell presentation "because you knew it would be just more of the same!" Shame on you! No one on this forum is more critical of the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq situation, and yet, when a major policy speech is presented offering information on which that policy is based, you take a powder! That certainly provides anyone interested a peek into how objective you are on the subject. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 05 Feb 03 - 02:50 PM (quote) "And, Tal, consider the reality the the US is the only *super power* and can make life pretty miserable for whom ever they want. " Yes, I 've been considering it quite seriously every day since this Bush drumbeat bagan its suspicious "Path to War". Hence I've "always" stressed that this is always about the U.N. doing '"it's" job like it did "not" do during equal war crimes commited under their noses in Bosnia until the Clinton ,as commander-in-chief , finally stepped up to the plate ( where Bush senior uttely "failed" )and said "enough was enough". Nothing would've been resolved had it not been backed up with the rightful use of "super power" force which has resulted in Malosevic before the world court as the war criminal he is. (quote) "Is it any wonder that other nations will soften their public positions the closer that the US gets ready to unleash a fire storm in Bagdad that will rival Hiroshama in its destruction?" Uhm, I appreciate & respect your passions ,and we are" friends , but invoking Hiroshima's obvious allusion to using a single nuke to deconstruct an entire highly populated city in a single morning to end a war declared by the then aggressive ( as survivors of Nanking or Korea ) "Empire of Japan" is as much a politically correct 'buzzword" and is out of place. What would be more comparable would be the attack on Afghanistan to finally oust the Taliban and resulted in breaking their ruthless stranglehold on the victimized Afghani's. Would you also have stayed the U.S./NATO millitary hand to leave Milosovic to continue his brutal campaign of aggressive "ethnic cleansing" and concentration camps? What I "do" support is a far more vigorous and far more manned inspector campaign. I would advocate a 10,000 man inspection sweep with dozens of helicopters all coordinating their sweeps simultaneously. along with constant overhead drones taking photos. This does "not" threaten a single innocent Iraqi citizen. "No" oil fields "taken". Sorry , but Saddam has provided reasonable cause for a U.N. inspector "weapons" search that's for real. Even France now advocates that....vigorously ! We need not go to war , but we dare not just sit on our hands and allow this milliterized "beast of Babylon" to proceed "unchecked" either. The U.S. was dead wrong to support his regime back in the Reagan Years, the U.S. was even more wrong to then not go all the way to Baghdad and clean this beast out in 1991 when clear victory over clear aggression and invasion was the right thing to do, the U.S. was wrong to then allow ( through Bush sr. ) to brutally "ethnically cleanse" the Kurds in Northern Iraq , and the U.S. has been wrong to allow the dropping of the U.N. inspector campaign. Let me ask this then., Rev. Bobert. Do you also feel the military enforcement of Iraq's containment within the "No Fly Zones" is wrong use of super-power status. I guess my attitude about keeping a cop on the beat remains consistant. To continue the metaphor would you feel safer if police "disarmmed" and could only use rough language? I guess my condemnation of "abuse of power" is more eccumenical. I don't tolerate it with a super-power nor totalitarian regime nor self-imposed dictator. Sauce for da goose be sauce for da gander I s'pose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: harvey andrews Date: 05 Feb 03 - 02:56 PM Vox Pop from the lady behind the counter serving fish and chips as the Colin Powell broadcast finished on the shop TV. "So that's the evidence? I don't think so." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: JedMarum Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:03 PM So entrenched positions remain entrenched. No surprise. Sadam will be brought down, America and its allies will take the actions required to make it happen, and then many of the fence sitters will rush to the aid of the victor. The nay sayers will continue to bitch about the "unfairness of it all" but we will all live in a safer world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: beadie Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:14 PM Jed: "Saddam will be brought down" [?] If that's all we want (and I don't disagree, entirely, with the concept), I think we could get the job done with $25,000 and a round-trip ticket for a hit man from Queens. Save money, save hassling with the UN, save US lives and materiel. Seriously, the idea of going to all-out war for the purpose of eliminating one man is giving his personal defense staff far too much credit. There's got to be more to it. What, oh what could it be . . . . . . . . .??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:32 PM Yo, Tal: Hey, I can live with "containment". I can live with diplomacy. I can live with the US taking a more active role in the world as a partner rather than a strick parent who only wants things the way they want 'em. I can live with the US doing an about face here and call for an Emergency Summit involving all the players in the Middle East. What I can not live with is misinformation, manipulation of people using such and some 3,000 Patriot missles raining down on Bagdad in the first 48 hours. That's the word that "unidentified officials" are leaking left and right about the US war plan. That is me reference to Hiroshama. That is one heck of a lot of needless killing... Doug: I'm sorry to disappoint you but: 1. This was *not*, except in the eyes of the wormongers, an important speech at all. 2. I'd rather read the text than listen to it because I can seperate the *information*, should there actually be any, form the fanfare. The photo's will be in the newspapers. Plus 3. I have an important presentaion myself tonight at the Leesburg Downtown Committe that I am preparing for which I know has meaningful inforamtion in it. BTW, Doug, did they show the smoking gun? No? Well, did they even show the gun? No? Well, what the heck did they show. A bunch of trucks and construction equipement. Hmmmm? Maybe they mistakenly took a picture of a construction company. You know, Iraq, has trucks and lectricity and all that stuff. But, boy, don't those ariel pics look real, real sinister and scarey.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: gnu Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:46 PM Like I said above... by the risin' o' the moon, 16 February. In addition to my comment on 17 February being Presidents' Day, I find it funny, and this time I mean HaHa funny, that the inspectors will present their next report on February 14. Will Saddam get the kiss of death on Valentine's Day ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:55 PM gnu: Word on the street is that the military won't have everything where they want it by then and may push the invasio9n toward the end of February... That's just what I hear... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Rustic Rebel Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:00 PM Powell held up a vile of a suspicious looking 'white powder' if that helps you Bobert! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: leprechaun Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM That's vial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST,Sam Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM Hopefull someone will actually do something soon...have you checked the stock market and gas prices lately? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: gnu Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:12 PM Word on the street is that the US and GB know what Saddam's got because they sold it to him. And it's so nasty that their allies will not be going in until it's mopped up. (Gee, I wonder where I heard that ?) It could be quite a mess, Custer style, but with little alternative. I bet Saddam is betting on the US hesitating to pull the big trigger. My money is on Bush... to UNlock and load. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Rustic Rebel Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:22 PM Right Leprechaun. Vial of vile white powder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: katlaughing Date: 05 Feb 03 - 04:31 PM Jed, I hope you were not referring to those of us who oppose an all out war when you used the phrase "Sadam supporters." I certainly am no supporter of his. I heard some expert on NPR, yesterday, saying that the military would not be in place and ready for war until March. IMO, the longer we can keep that from happening, through inspections, working with the UN and using all diplomatic and other non-violent means, the better. By May or June it will be too hot to do anything over there. A speaker at our local college, who lived in Bagdhad for four years said it gets to 120 degrees farenheit in the city from June through October. katgivingpeaceachance |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: JedMarum Date: 05 Feb 03 - 08:13 PM No Kat - I was not meaning that all anti-war folks are Saddam supporters. And I don;t even mean that it is only miltary eans that will bring Sadam down, even at this late a date. Powell made a compelling case today. Our allies will be forced to make a decision (most have been supportive all along). They may insist on some final last chance that includes an out for Sadam if he complies - or for those among his leaders willing to comply for him. It's funny to say "final last chance" but I guess that is where we are. Powell has laid the groundwork for a whole world action. Now it will be up to the whole world to decide where they fit in. They will be forced to decide. I'll bet the US and allied military have been ready to go at a moments notice for months. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: toadfrog Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:33 PM I heard about 40 minutes of the Powell speech. He did speak very well. Did he try to link Iraq with Al Quaeda? I did not hear that. I found Powell credible, anlthough not as "compelling" as Mr. Marum, here. I should think if he tried to make an Al Quaeda link, that would knock his credibility down one or two notches. That was a serious question, by the way. I would like to know. Can anyone answer it. Also heard the French representative speak, and thought he made a lot of sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:49 PM I always find Darth Powell a little uninspiring without his light saber, black helmet and black cape. These formal affairs are so tedious. I would much prefer to see him at the controls of one of those gloriously evil-looking stealth fighters, zapping ragged third-worlders who stand in the way of corporate access to major oil fields, such as those in Iraq and the Caspian region. (sigh) All this talk. When will the appeasers fall into line and join in the Great Assault (let's call it Operation Restoring Hope And Freedom) as the Empire Strikes Back yet again? It's all so heroic, isn't it? Just like the Wehrmacht rolling into the ruins of Warsaw in 1939...and no one around to interfere this time, like those meddling British and French did in '39, screwing up the whole works. The British have had the good sense this time to join the great juggernaut, and the French...well, who really cares what they say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Walking Eagle Date: 05 Feb 03 - 10:08 PM Anyone got a line on the rumor that the weapons, lock stock and barrel, have been spirited off to Syria? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 05 Feb 03 - 10:19 PM You can bet that whatever Iraq has, it ain't giving it away! I mean, why would it with Bush's nervous little cowardly finger on the war *start button*? It would be stupid. Hey, when Bush get past the first 48 hours and has rained some 3000 Patriots down on Bagdad, he's gonna have to take some boys in there to try to *clean* the joint up. Problem is that now he's gonna find gray haired old ladies that look alot like his mother with AK-47's who are right pissed off (see pic on front page of today's Washington Post). Now if Saddam can get old ladies to fight against Bush, don't think for a minute that he'd take his bigger guns and stash them where he can't use them.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Richie Date: 05 Feb 03 - 10:50 PM Bobert, You're right! Iraq and Saddam aren't giving anything away. One thing is fur sure, Saddam doesn't care about the women and children in his country. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Walking Eagle Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:14 PM The rumor I'm refering to goes like this. When the shooting starts, all the stuff we know he has will be fired from just inside Iraq along the Syrian border. Crazy, I think, but he did let his fighter jets leave and land in Iran. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:26 PM Yo, Richie: The 3,000 "Patriots" (Ha!) expected to be launched in the 1st 48 hours against Iraq don't care about women and children either. Estimates of upwards of 100,000 woman and children will be killed by the *good guys*. Go figure.... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:35 PM The rumor I'm refering to goes like this. When the shooting starts, all the stuff we know he has will be fired from just inside Iraq along the Syrian border. Why does this not surprise me? Could it be that Syria is the next country that Israel has her sights set on in her conquest for domination over all of the middle east? Of course it is. Next country after Iraq that is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Richie Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:41 PM Bobert, That means Saddam knows that 100,000 of his people will be killed and will not cooperate or remove himself from power...proving he doesn't give a rat's tail about human life. I'm hoping the world will unite against him...even the left, so that he can be forced out without a war. But he needs to go. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Barry Finn Date: 05 Feb 03 - 11:52 PM All I heard today was Colin Cancer spouting the same fluff again. Think about what's being presented. If I walked into a court of law with the evidence he presented I'd be disbared, dismembered & darn studip. With all this he say, she say shit I'd say it wouldn't be enough to toss someone in death row never mind into battle. Are they not held to the same standards of proof that they hold all of US to? That was a 3rd rate crime report. I remember how & what we were told during the Viet Nam police action. Cambodia & Laos were off limits & at the same time my brother was there covertly with the CIA doing what they do best while under cover. And you wonder why people won't take them at their word this time around. Screw my once shame on you, screw me twice shame on me. We have (along with a host of others) the ability to create any scene to fit the situation so as Americans isn't it are duty to make damn sure before we go off on a twenty first century crusade (whoa, been there, done that)? If we don't & we go this alone we may find that the UN has to declare US as a rouge nation & put the dogs on US. That tiny little spec of dust over there wouldn't be capable of nor have the resources to lob a football at us never mind being wage war. Didn't we already disable them when they were in far better shape than they are now. Please. Honey duck they're throwing carrots at us. Let's nuke 'em with all our weapons of mass destruction. Korea is so far along in this area that they might as well Iraq & save us the cost or maybe do it from close range Isreal (pun) don't they also have the capablity? What happened when they got theirs? They are no more of a threat to us than Bora Bora is. Colin "Chicken Little" Cancer is asking us to fear not Iraq but to fear itself & the unknown. There are to many what if's, but's, maybe's, guess's, suppose's & a convinent amount of 2nd & 3rd hand speculation. I am not one to follow any politican frothing at the mouth like a rabid dog into the arena. If anyone wants my kid's life they can wait till hell freezes over before I take them at their word. I didn't bare & raise a child to watch him become a tool to be discarded or disposed of on the whim of anyone's say-so jail house source no matter who or what is wearing the strips. Did we not lose enough humans in the past needlessly. Is the real goal to do earth the big favor of cutting back on all the mouths that she needs to support & feed in favor of giving more to the few with an eating disorder? Pleae again. We have enough here to sustain the globe on, it's no wonder countries are getting pissed at us, for making all the wrong moves for the wrong reason. Our Founding Fathers had something better in mind for us than that. We are the most powerful, richest, advanced nation in the world, we should be waging a war on a host of things but not on people. War is failure & a last resort. We can be part of the solution or be part of the problem, which ever we choose we will be the big part. Brace yourself for cold war II & world war III. Is it worth it? Is there enough to warrant this? Who gives a twit what about the one who dies with the most toys wins? Lastly, what ever we choose we will have it coming back in ten fold & we'll deserve every bit of it, good or bad, our choice. We are choosing not just for ourselves (we sometimes don't see this), we're choosing for the citizens of the world, even the most remote place on earth will sharply feel the results. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Richie Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:04 AM Barry, It only took a dozen terrorists to kill thousands on 9-11. If Saddam and terrorist are left alone they will attack and kill as many as they can. Military might over Iraq has nothing to do with it. It's getting the bad guys before they get us. How many Iraqi lives will we save if we get rid of Saddam now? Isn't that the main thing...to make the world a safer place. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:06 AM Are we going to kill all of the bad guys in the world then, Richie? All of them, before they get us? What will that make us then? Good guys? You've got to be kidding me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Richie Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:13 AM Carol, I thought murderers were put in jail, or sould they just be left alone...no sense trying to take care of them. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: DougR Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:15 AM Carol C: your last post illuminates your prejudice against Israel, right? Jed: It is too much to expect that those who are so opposed to disarming Saddam, and bringing about a change in leadership in Iraq, thereby freeing the Iraqi people from one of the most repressive regimes in history, would expend the time necessary to hear the evidence presented to the UN Security Council today. I think you are being kind when you say to kat, and others, that they are not supporting Saddam after the evidence was presented by our Secretary of State today to the UN Security Council. Who are they supporting? Not the the U. S.! Not the people of Iraq (or perhaps they do not accept the fact that the people there are repressed!). Is it fair to say they are supporting Germany and France? I would assume so. I heard today on Fox News Network that fifty countries have signed on to support the U. S. position on Iraq. So the US is not alone in it's effort to rid the world of the threat Saddam presents to the world. If the UN doesn't enforce it's own rules, why does it make them? If they don't enforce their own rules, why have a UN? Perhaps the best course of action for the U.S. would be for us to completely withdraw from the situation. Bring our troops back home, and let Germany, France, and those few nations that do not see Saddam as a threat handle the situation. Would my friends on the Mudcat find that a more acceptable role for the U. S.? I look forward to your replies. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Ebbie Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:12 AM Perhaps the best course of action for the U.S. would be for us to completely withdraw from the situation. Bring our troops back home, and let Germany, France, and those few nations that do not see Saddam as a threat handle the situation. Well, that would be a start. Why are we in the USA so sure of Saddam's immediate threat to us when his neighbors are not? And don't tell me about the twin towers tragedy. That was not Hussein! If it were, the evidence would be blazoned across our foreheads. So we go in and blast Iraq into a imitation of Afghanistan- and we will not have addressed one imminent problem of terrorism. Other than our own. We will have killed tens of thousands of people whose only crime is that they don't like us. But by God we will have gotten the Big Bastard, who dared plot against somebody's daddy. (Or will we? We haven't found bin Laden, now have we.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Teribus Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:07 AM Hysterical quote from a Bobertgram high above: "What I can not live with is misinformation, manipulation of people using such and some 3,000 Patriot missles raining down on Bagdad in the first 48 hours. That's the word that "unidentified officials" are leaking left and right about the US war plan." If such an event were to occur as described by Bobert above, the resulting Iraqi death-toll would be 0. Your "unidentified officials" in whom you base such faith Bobert must be the most "misinformed" and manipulated people on this planet. Why do I say so? The Patriot missile and it's associated control system is designed to intercept and destroy ballistic missiles, as such it has a no offensive capability whatsoever. Please read below: "Patriot is a long-range, all-altitude, all-weather air defence system to counter tactical ballistic missiles, cruise missiles and advanced aircraft. As well as the USA, Patriot is in service with Germany, Greece, Israel, Japan, Kuwait, the Netherlands, Saudi Arabia and Taiwan. It has been cleared for sale to Egypt. The range of the missile is 70km and maximum altitude is greater than 24km. The minimum flight time is the time to arm the missile, which is less than 9s, and the maximum flight time is less than 3½mins." Tomahawks, Bobert, Tomahawks - they are the cruise missiles that would be fired, and even according to your old pal Ira Chernus (remember the Professor of Religious Studies at the University of Colorado, Boulder) the estimated number was 800, not 3000. Thanks for the posts above Taliesn and Jed - very well put, rational, factual and objective. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:11 AM It surely is ironic that Bobert gives three misinformations in a sentence starting with the words What I can not live with is misinformation but you, Teribus, are a clever debater too. You use two more misinformations by Bobert in the same sentence to make a point. I'm sure you know as well as I do, that the number 3000 Bobert cites has been published by several sources as the expected number of missiles and bombs together (I'm not sure, is the word describing both of them together warheads?) to fall on Iraq within the first 48 hours. If we now assume that Bobert had meant to write 'Tomahawk' instead of 'Patriot', 'warhead' (?) instead of 'missile', and 'Iraq' instead of 'Bagdad' the resulting sentence would have been quite close to truth. So what Bobert had meant to post was perhaps correct. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Teribus Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:28 AM Hiya Doug, Total American withdrawal. An extremely interesting hypothesis. Now what would that do? 1. Scare the hell out of the United Nations. As pointed out by both your President, last September, and by your Secretary of State, yesterday, the United Nations, as a credible international organisation, has arrived at a defining moment - Whether it likes it, or not, it must act, and it must act with convincing authority. If the U.S. withdraws, then UN knows that it will become nothing more than a totally irrelevant talking shop. 2. The United states would then have to place it's reliance on defence from "international terrorism", on increasing awareness and counter-measures domestically, and, in investing heavily on developing their own high-grade, world-wide intelligence gathering network. This cannot be regarded as providing any guarantee that attacks such as the current administration are warning about will not happen, in fact America's withdrawal will actually increase the odds of such an even happening. Irrespective of future American presence, withdrawal, engagement or isolation - the U.S. is the proclaimed target. (I was going to add the admonition "Defend yourselves as best you can" - but the guys you have in office at present are already doing that to an audience that apparently is totally unappreciative of that threat or their efforts). 3. Having withdrawn from an extremely vital region would create a vacuum that in the normal course of things will encourage one of the following. It may encourage those within the region to act, in a manner they would would otherwise have been more circumspect about. It may encourage others outside the region to engage and fill that vacuum. Either way the prognosis for the region as a whole would not be hopeful or beneficial and countries whose entire economic well-being is reliant on "Gulf" oil would become extremely vulnerable and anxious. 4. For Iraq itself, the inspection programmes could be brought to an end, either by increased non-cooperation, or, by the expulsion of the inspection teams. Iraq would then petition for all UN sanctions to be lifted, on the premise that since 1998 they have been a joke, and that the UN no longer has the means to enforce them. Iraq would then be free to pursue whatever course the Ba'ath regime in power choses. 5. Should any real emergency situation arise - there is nobody capable of dealing with it, or to give potential protagonists cause to think before they act. So the UN would be constrained to act as it did in Rwanda, i.e. sit on the side lines uttering extremely eloquent dialogue until such time as the killing stops, after which they turn up, pontificate as to the evil that is man and depart the scene having done nothing apart from possibly set up some lame-duck tribunal that eventually becomes part of the established UN junket circuit. However given the rhetoric and statements made within certain European countries, I would rather hope that they were nominated or earmarked to supply any forces required to intervene in said emergency situations, the U.S. & UK of course would stay out of it completely. Well Doug, It certainly doesn't sound like a recipe for success to me, the only guy who seems to come out ahead in the above is Bobert's pal Saddam Hussein. Peace and Love Teribus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Teribus Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:17 AM Wolfgang, What Bobert posted as purporting to be "fact" was inaccurate, unsubstantiated, subjective opinion. On one hand we are advised that we should not believe anything written or stated, in news articles, newspapers, government reports and recorded proceedings backed up by authoritive sources. While on the other hand the same people advising us of the aforementioned quote endlessly from articles to lend credibility to their point of view and expect it to be taken as set-in-stone, hard-and-fast, irrefutable fact. Well I am sorry, I just will not swallow that. If anybody, on any topic, goes into print, they should at least proof read what they are about to submit before pressing the button. In this particular instance, by naming Patriot instead of Tomahawk and by then quoting the source as "unidentified officials" privy to U.S. war planning, Bobert only succeeds in reinforcing my belief that what he (Bobert) regards as authoritive sources are in fact anything but. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: InOBU Date: 06 Feb 03 - 09:15 AM fplks folks folks... Vertually every American war begins with a lie, and those which don't begin with a manufactured event often. Even wars which most folks feel were moraly defendable, such as the Second World War, remember the Greer Kearny and the Rubin James? Well, they are now know to have been running at a U Boat's snorkle, forcing the event. The fact is the best way to deal with Moslem extreemism, is to foster ecconomic rather than military competition, which we are not about to do. We support Moslem extreemists, such as Kallada Zia in Bangladesh, because as long as Asia and the Mid East is fighting sectarian wars, they will not be forming a Asian united ecconomic entity as Western Europe has done. So, we keep the pot boiling, using the unrest to excuse adventurism abroad and loss of rights at home. Unfortunatly friends, when the America you believe in has been sold out to the Patriot Act and other acts of tyranny, you will be so afraid of the dreaded Eastern Threat you wont notice the loss of you own nation to theives and dictators. Sorry Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:53 AM T: Sorry, make that Tomahawks. Didn't mean to get you all twisted up. Ohters: Speaking of twisted up, how'd every one like Powell's *smoke and mirrors* pony show, yesterday. I just finished reading the text of it and I'm with Barry on this one. Nothing but heresay. I keep in mind history here. When the military industrialists wanted a war in Vietnam, they *invented* the "Gulf of Tonkin Incident". When the military industrialists wanted a war against Iraq, they *invented* a story about "babies being takien from the incubators". So now they come at us with another batch of PR crapola. Let's keep in mind that from Day One, this administration has done virually nothing to promote diplomacy and peace on the planet. Look at just how far they have come in creating a very dangerous global situation. Now lets take a short inventory of how we got where we are: 1. The first blunder (intentional or not) was to turn its back on two decades of US involvement in trying to act as referee/go-bewteew/negotiator/arbitrator of the Isreali/Palistinian conflict. Well, we soon found out what that decision brought the region. 2. In turning our back, we also sent a signal to the Islamic world that we'd didn't care diddly crap about them or their concerns and that created a wonderful opportuinity for extremists to organize and feel justified in carrying out 9/11. Great job, fellers. 3. Then they buddied up to a repressive and dangerous Pakistan so we would have a ground base to attack Afganistan, which of course we did. 4. After ousting the Taliban from most of Afganistan we turned out attention quickly to other part of the world where the military industrialist could get their jollies leaving Afganistan to be run by the some of the same warlords that had created the problems to begin with. 5. Now we read that the Taliban and the bin Laden's are moving back into Afganistan, but who cares? (Details, Bobert...) 6. Then the blunder to beat all blunders. The "Axis of Evil" speech which did nothing more than tell the world that the US was in the mood to *whack* some folks and now we wonder why so many folks are preparing to defent themselves. 7. Which leads us to yesterday. Now, for you folks who think that US has made every attempt to lead the world toward greater stability and humanity with the last two years of school yard bully foriegn policy, that's your biz. It's also your reponsibility. We all are resonsible for what we do and don't do. But, Bobert, what about 9/11? Didn't that change everything? Yes it did. Why do we allready have an investigative chairman appointed for the shuttle loss but not one for 9/11? Hmmmmmm? Could it be that there's are some bones that just don't need to be dug up? Well, I end this with saying that I am in total agreement with everything Barry Finn said above. I would ask those of you who are quick on the reaction trigger to go back and read what he has said. I'd also like for folks who are quick to see war as the *only* answer to reask that question of yourselves but allow some time for prayer and meditation before answering yourselves. Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:13 AM I thought murderers were put in jail, or sould they just be left alone...no sense trying to take care of them. (Where to begin, where to begin?) If we were to put all of the foriegn governments (people) who commit murder in jail (or kill them), there are a lot of people (governments) we regard as allies who we would have to kill or put in jail (maybe including ourselves). And, if we are going to kill everyone we think might harm us some day, then we will have to become murderers ourselves. Carol C: your last post illuminates your prejudice against Israel, right? How so, DougR? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:25 AM Perhaps the best course of action for the U.S. would be for us to completely withdraw from the situation. Bring our troops back home, and let Germany, France, and those few nations that do not see Saddam as a threat handle the situation. Would my friends on the Mudcat find that a more acceptable role for the U. S.? I look forward to your replies. By all means. But if it's going to really work, we'll have to get our greedy mitts (and US tax dollars) out of all of the countries where we are propping up repressive and sometimes even murderous (and sometimes even expansionist) regimes, indluding Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Israel. And we would have to stop using our covert operations to de-stabilize democratically elected governments with whom we don't agree, such as Venezuela. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 06 Feb 03 - 11:38 AM It could be quite a mess, Custer style I take it that refers to the massacres he carried out rather than to the time he got his come-uppance. I think Bobert's point about waiting for the written text rather than listening to the presentation makes a lot of sense. How it's said is just presentation, another word for which is show business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: John Hardly Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:09 PM Many of you seem to by implying a breakdown of the entire US government in order to allow a few conspirators to fabricate a case for war. That is so incredibly improbable. How improbable? The last president couldn't even put together a conspiracy big enough to cover up sexual misdeeds. Do you really believe that, with all the manpower it would require to manufacture such a huge (not to mention immoral on a scale that would make even proponents of situational ethics blush) that an administration would really delude itself into believing that they could address the UN and the world with a hoax? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 03 - 12:24 PM It's what we do John. We're really, really good at it. The last president couldn't even put together a conspiracy big enough to cover up sexual misdeeds That wasn't the conspiricy in that particular case. In that case, the conspiricy was the defacto coup d'etat (sp?) that was being foisted upon us with all of those bogus investigations of the president. And I'd say it was pretty successful considering how much of the president's time was tied up in having to deal with the investigations of his sex life rather than on being president (something the Supreme Court assured us wouldn't happen). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:01 PM Also, the last president didn't owe a stolen election to the military industrial complex that heavily financed both Bush's campaign and the money vast amount of dough that was spent on attorneys to get the recounts stopped in Florida. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: DougR Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:44 PM So? Ebbie and Carol C. vote for removing all our troops from the mid-east and returning them to their home bases in the U. S. Thanks for your comments. I thought perhaps there would be more Mudcatters who joined them in that belief. Teribus: Of course your assessment of what would be the result is correct in my opinion. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Amos Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:56 PM Doug: Some of us didn't answer your survey, I would like to point out. Powell was certainly more persuasive than his Furless Lieder who is, IMNSHO one of the most dangerous men ever to find power dumped in his stupid head. He made a case for deception and evasion. He did not make a case for WMD, especially nuclear. I happen to believe that Saddam Hussein IS practicing evasion and deception. I also believe he has unaccounted-for biochem munitions. You seem to feel that if both these things are true, then the slaughter of uncounted human lives is a reasonable course of action. I do not concur with that belief. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:56 PM Well, Dougie, I'll meet you half way. The troops can stay but Bush has to call for an "Emergency Summit" in the Middle East and spend just 10% of his military budget on promoting peace in the region. Yeah, he can us some of those slick ad-men that wrote Powell's speech, a good number of clergy from all the various religions, couselors, group facilitators, and men who have made peace and reconciliation their life guiding forces, like Jimmy Carter, Dick Gregory, Mohammed Ali, Jesse Jackson, Nelson Mandela, etc. Now, here's the rules. No one leaves until the job is done. Got it? And then, just to make sure that everyone lives up to what they agree, the troops can stay as interim peace keepers for as long as it takes. So go ahead and tell me why it won't work. We allready well know why your way doesn't work. One war just brings on another which brings on another and the beat goes on and mankind in general gets the shaft because the Boss Hogs of the world never met a war not worth fighting.... 'er at least sending the peasant class off to fight... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: TIA Date: 06 Feb 03 - 01:56 PM Doug - count me in too. And, let's develop clean, efficent, domestic energy sources so that we can't be held hostage by our own gluttony for oil from parts of the world where the people seem to hate us so (partially because of our gluttony?...ain't it a vicious cycle). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: DougR Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM McGrath: I believe had you and Bobert have watched Secretary Powell's report to the Security Council you would have agreed that there were no histronics displayed in his presentation, and no staging, which is what Iraq claims of course. I think it is interesting that you use the Iraqi's claim as a reason for supporting Bobert's reading, rather than watching the report. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:17 PM Teribus: Of course your assessment of what would be the result is correct in my opinion. We'll never find out who is correct, though, will we DougR? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Don Firth Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:19 PM For those who missed it, here is The Smoking Gun. Links are beneath photo. This website is probably very temporary, so look soon. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 03 - 02:38 PM Yeah, Don, I was not overly impressed with Powell's slide presentation. Ya know, it gets tiresome hearing him use phrases such as "We have knowledge....", "Our source tell us...." "The intellegence we have shows..." while not providing a danged thing to the inpectors who are there, inspite of what T thinks, to look for proof of the existence of these nasty things. The credibility goes down every time I hear these phrases. An entire year of huff 'n puff and it comes down to a buch of ad-men, psychologist and used car salesmen sitting down and creating a 71 minut *skit* for Powell to perform like a dog jumping thru rings in a circus! I'm embarassed for him and equally embarrassed by this administrations obvious thirst for war, pick a war, any war will do. And if Bush can clear up his daddies perceived incompleted job, then fine. If not, next month anoth boogie man will be paraded before the American people. Heck, these guys don't care who the boogioe man is as long as they have one center stage and another in the wings... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Feb 03 - 03:57 PM T: Sorry, make that Tomahawks. Didn't mean to get you all twisted up. You mean you still insist that you did not mix up the two words 'Iraq' and 'Bagdad' in that sentence? If you retract, make it a complete retration, Bobert. And, next time, proofread. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Don Firth Date: 06 Feb 03 - 04:20 PM A wise man once said, "You don't want to just sit back and 'let George do it,' because you could wake up some morning and find out that Joe did instead, and you might not like it so much!" For example, I heard on this morning's news that North Korea has just remarked that when a nation feels threatened by another nation, the United States does not have an exclusive franchise on pre-emptive attacks. Also in the news:-- Whether or not to issue another terrorist alert. The following is an except from an article in the Washington Post:-- Many intelligence analysts in the Pentagon and White House believe the surge in activity is cause for serious alarm, especially because the prospect of war with Iraq heightens the risk of attacks by Iraqi agents, al-Qaida operatives or others eager to take advantage of the political climate. Many of these officials favor issuing a general alert to the public sometime in the next week, sources said.Thanks, George! Great foreign policy you've got there (Duck and cover, folks!)! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:32 PM Sorry, Wolfgang, but with my busy life (2 businesses and a demanding wife) I just get a shot here and there at the pudder so I'm always kind of hit 'n running to go do something. When I do have the time to proofread, becuase of my severe lexdexia, the stuff always looks just fine. Poor excuse, but unfortunately... it's the truth. But thanks fir standin' up for my sorry butt with the T-Bird. I owe ya' one... 'er two. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM Well, there's always one alternative: If you are too busy to proofread, don't post. Just an idea. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 03 - 05:41 PM I don't think that people with learning disabilities like dyslexia should be kept from participating in public debate just because of their disability, do you Wolfgang? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:44 PM What Carol siad, Wolfer. Now go sit in the corner. Bad Wolfgang!.... Bad! Actually I think you would find it interestin to know that folks with dexlexia are generally more intellegent than the general population. Hey, Iz not sayin' that I more intellegent that other folks. I'm just repeating what I heard on a video I have on lexdexia. And, not that this has anything to do with this thread but I couldn't read a lick until I was in the 5ht grade. But, hey, I got two college degrees somehow (Okay, one is in art) but I must not be too much of a dummie to get 'em without any major readin' skills. Withall that said, I say Bush on TV a few minutes ago doing his huff 'n puff thing but also allowing the UN one "last shot" at getting Iraq to diasarm. I wonder if this has anything to do with the 4th Infantry 3 weeks away from being in place (with their MiA2 tanks), the 1 Calvary at least two weeks from being in place, the 1st Armored and 1st Mechanized not in place and won't be until late Feb., the 101st Air Assualt (helicopeters) two to three weeks from being ready, the 1st, 4th and 49th Fighter Wing (F-117A stealths) and the 28th Bombardment (B-1B Bombers) ready but with limited stockpiles? Hmmmm? So, Iz not sure at all that Bush is giving the UN Security Council one last chance by design... but by default... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Barry Finn Date: 06 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM The only smoking gun I saw was the one Bush shot himself in the foot while his the other hand was pointing at Hussein saying he did it. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 03 - 08:21 PM LOL, Barry... Gotta agree with ya'. The boy ain't oo smart. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Richie Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:31 PM I see nothing wrong with Bobert's spelling...just some of his colorful statements. Since Bobert is the President elect at Mudcat perhaps Wolfgang would be so kind as to correct his majesty's spelling errors (and mine while you're at it!). -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:38 PM Well, Richie, it has been brought to my attention that Wolfie, seein' as English may not be his first language, he may not understand about lexdexia, dexlexia or poor spelling. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Ebbie Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:50 PM I think Wolfgang should proofread his own posts. In his 3:57 post I just couldn't make out what he meant in his third sentence. Because of his misspelling, you know. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 06 Feb 03 - 10:58 PM Here's Hans Blix's response to Colin Powel's "smoking gun", according to this article in The Guardian UK: "US Claim Dismissed by Blix" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: DougR Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:01 AM Ebbie, Bobert and Richie: Wolfgang has been a contributor to Mudcat, I'd venture to say longer than most of you. His posts have never been intentionally insulting to anyone. I would hope you would re-think your last posts. Wolfgang does not agree with my POV, but I have always found him to be fair in his postings. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Ebbie Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:40 AM Read it all again, Doug. I don't think we put him down at all. My post, for instance, was meant to point out that even with misspellings and typos, one's meaning is pretty easy to suss out, contrary to Wolfgang's implication. On the other hand, as I'm sure he himself would agree, Wolfgang's own most recent posts are not playful at all. So perhaps you could address some of your reprimands to him? If you feel that reprimands from one 'catter to another is needed? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST,Gareth Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:42 AM Oi ! As a frequenty tpyo misspelar I fink that criticism on a buse of thr Keyboard is out of order, Misuse of facts and confusing fact with prejudice is critisisable, however I will leave you all with this quotation from George Orwell - " Just be cause a thing is reported in the "Daily Telegraph" does not mean it's untrue." NB THe "Daily Telegraph" is a heavey, right wing, british newspaper. Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Feb 03 - 03:04 AM Gee, it's nice to see we're all having such a fine time beating the hell out of each other here. If y'all just had some nukes we could really get down now couldn't we? But the frustration and sniping ( even this little bit here) are natural coming from folks who, regardless of belief in the actions, see the actions of Bush as not just probable, but 3 steps past inevitable. Every Guard and Reserve support unit around here has been called up, Powell says it is now in the "end game," Bush says Iraq's time is up, and....if you want real proof.....the 101st Airborne has been redeployed. Jack Kennedy saw the importance of taking action but saw the equal importance of gaining the backing of the OAS, NATO, and of course the UN, before taking that unilateral action. It was a strong action we took then, but an action tempered continually with an eye toward stopping it as soon as possible, when conditions were met. Bush will not do this, but will only ignore Iraqi concessions, or add new stipulations, whatever is required, to flex American muscle. It's going to happen folks. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Teribus Date: 07 Feb 03 - 03:45 AM Bobert, After an entire year of "huff and puff" as you call it, here are the results: 1. February 2002 - the UN sitting back quietly ignoring its responsibilities. February 2003 - UN now living up to those responsibilities and actively enforcing resolutions passed with regard to Iraqi disarmament. 2. February 2002 - no weapons inspectors in Iraq and no sign of any intention on the part of the Iraqi Government to allow them back into the country. February 2003 - UNMOVIC and IAEA inspectors in Iraq. 3. February 2002 - The Iraqi Government stonewalling on every move to bring about any solution to its problems with respect to the international community. February 2003 - The Iraqi Government has conceded point after point, that previously it declared were unsurmountable obstacles. We have discussed your proposal for an "Emergency Summit" for the Middle East and the difficulties involved previously Bobert. On that occasion, when pressed, you said that: 1. You couldn't be bothered reading the posts 2. You couldn't be bothered to investigate the complexities involved. The Summit Bobert would have to be held in Baghdad Bobert because your pal Saddam has not left the country in the last 26 years (When he took over) - Wonder why??? Since threads on possible war with Iraq started I have always said that the actual mechanics of it are impossible without the active co-operation of on Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Subsequent to Colin Powell's presentation at the UN, Turkey now seems to be altering it's position dramatically - from no US troops on Turkish soil, to giving the go-ahead for preparations for the bases they will need. Later this month the Turkish Parliament is expected to sanction use of Turkish bases for US personnel involved in any possible attack on Iraq. When this vote goes through - the operation then becomes possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Teribus Date: 07 Feb 03 - 04:17 AM Oh I forgot Bobert: "Ya know, it gets tiresome hearing him use phrases such as "We have knowledge....", "Our source tell us...." "The intellegence we have shows..." Of course Bobert you never provide so called facts quoting sources like that, you rely on "unidentified officials" - can't really see what the major point of difference is - apart from the fact that you believe one whole-heartedly and utterly discount the other as being all lies and spin. Don F: You make two comments in your post above: "I heard on this morning's news that North Korea has just remarked that when a nation feels threatened by another nation, the United States does not have an exclusive franchise on pre-emptive attacks." Pure sabre-rattling Don, and aimed at their domestic audience. North Korea knows damn well what would happen if they actually acted on the above statement. "Also in the news:-- Whether or not to issue another terrorist alert. The following is an except from an article in the Washington Post:-- Many intelligence analysts in the Pentagon and White House believe the surge in activity is cause for serious alarm, especially because the prospect of war with Iraq heightens the risk of attacks by Iraqi agents, al-Qaida operatives or others eager to take advantage of the political climate. Many of these officials favor issuing a general alert to the public sometime in the next week, sources said. Thanks, George! Great foreign policy you've got there (Duck and cover, folks!)!" The United States of America was the primary terrorist target long before your current President took up office. Not one thing, not one measure, apart from possibly declaring that overnight the USA was to become a fundamentalist Islamic Republic, would have altered the view points of the terrorist organisations that have pronounced the US as enemy No. 1. Please do not expect rational people to believe that the current situation was entirely the responsibility of your current President or his Administration - That contention is ridiculous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:38 AM Yo, T. Good morning: I'll get back to you on the specifics becuase it's snowing and I gotta dig my old truck out mand get it over the mountain this morninf and open my business but: Your assumption that Saddam is my "pal" is just that: an assumtion. And I'm sure that some one has pointed out in your life the the "ass-u-me" part about assume, except in the case there more T than me in your misuse... Gotta go shovel lots of snow now... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Steve in Idaho Date: 07 Feb 03 - 11:09 AM Same old stuff - I am of the opinion that Secretary Powell made his case. I do not believe that he could give names of informants as this would result in their deaths, along with their families, were they found out. This is not the era of the bow and arrow - it is the era of suicide bombers, biological disaster, nuclear weapons in the hands of those sworn to destroy us, and other atrocious weapons we can but imagine. Saddam has a fairly reprehensible history with his people and his enemies. Take a look at what was left of the Iranian troops after he gassed them. Or the Kurds in the North. America is my country. I believe that we have a duty to ensure our safety. And if the Twin Towers wasn't an attack on us what was it? And did we deserve it? I don't think so. I further believe that anyone who believes America had that cheap shot coming needs some serious psychiatric evaluation work done. No one deserved that. I don't particularly care for some of the President's policies, and I sometimes wonder just how able a leader he is, but I believe Colin Powell is doing what he believes to be right. He has a lot of integrity in my opinion. And he is making those recomendations based on information we are not allowed to have. And I believe it is for national security. I don't like war. I have several personal investments in why we should not fight this war. My Daughter is over there, my Brother is on his way, and the unit I work for is sending many of my close friends. I personally stand to lose a lot if this thing goes badly. Probably lose a lot even if it goes well. But my opinion is that some folks need removed. And Saddam is one of them. He's a cur dog running amock with a set of teeth that needs removed. I'm not a war monger. I don't think anyone here is. We all seek the same goal. Peace. We all just have speculative opinions on how to best achieve that goal. I love the dialogue. It's what we are about, we Americans, we talk things nearly to death before we act. But when we act I would hope that we act in one accord. Our troops need the support for what they may be asked to do. And as far as folks from other countries name calling my countries leaders - don't. It just shows your ignorance of what they achieved and overcame to become leaders of my country. I don't bad mouth your folks - I'd appreciate it if you didn't do it to mine. We've had this part of the conversation before. Just my opinion - Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 07 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM Gosh, I don't know... Seems Colin came off as a tattling schoolboy replete with fake humility... The connection of Saddam and 9-11 is streched out so thin... hardly worth spending the gas money on mobilisation... Which is no small sum. So, why doesn't Bush get on the UN bandwagon and share the information he has with the UN. If he is so sure of himself, then the UN should not be kept in the dark. The only explanation I can give, is that Bush wants all the credit for Saddam's removal. This is so phoney. The UN is 'irrelevant' only as we make it so... we are making fools out of the UN adherents in order to make ourselves 'seem' righteous. I would much rather see Bush 'cooperate fully' with the UN, than this banal crap we're all being sucked into... ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:07 PM I think you know that I have a tremendous amount of respect for you Steve, but I feel compelled to make this distinction for you: I further believe that anyone who believes America had that cheap shot coming needs some serious psychiatric evaluation work done. No one deserved that. I seriously doubt that anyone here in the US thinks we deserved that. But I know there are many here who are pretty convinced that we helped to cause it to happen. There is a very, very big difference between those two things. As a mental health professional, you know that in order for a person to stop a self-destructive behavior, the person must first admit that he or she is engaging in that behavior. Now, I'll understand if you don't agree with the idea that the US government has any culpability in this regard. But I hope you will understand that for those who do think the US government is culpable, what is needed is simply for the US government to clean up its act. It has nothing to do with any ideas about innocent Americans deserving to die. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: DougR Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:35 PM Excellent post, Steve. TTR: I'm sure you must be aware that Secretary Powell WAS making his presentation to the UN Security Council. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Don Firth Date: 07 Feb 03 - 01:49 PM Not so ridiculous, Teribus. When a country is under attack (i.e., 9/11) by an amorphous enemy with no fixed base and no way of guaranteeing safety from future attacks, that is a very difficult problem indeed. It can't be alleviated by deliberately antagonizing three countries with no established connection to our attackers (Bush's "axis of evil" speech on Jan. 29, 2002). That was, to say the very least, counterproductive. Then Bush zeroes in on Iraq, and then tries to convince everybody that all of our problems come from there. It doesn't take much imagination to figure out why he picked Iraq: oil for one, his father's unfinished business for another, and Iraq's strategic geo-political location for a third. With his obvious cobbling of the truth and his blatant war-mongering, he's managed to antagonize several countries who, were we concentrating on neutralizing terrorism as we rationally should be doing, would be our staunchest allies. I would sooner have a rabid pit-bull in charge of our foreign policy. About North Korea, I don't share your faith in their taking a rational course if they really feel threatened. And Bush's attitude toward them, of late, is anything but conciliatory. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:03 PM Right Doug. The 'information' that he shared was needlessly public and ambiguous. If we are full time participants in the world monitoring system represented by the UN, the world stands a much better chance of remaining peaceful, and Bush could bolster the US economy by focusing his energy on domestic issues and the economy. Saddam is doing exactly what everyone thought he would do under the circumstances... Nothing new. Bush's behavior is reprehensible. He is cashing in the US economy, and our credibility as 'Peaceful mediator', and worst of all, he is angering terrorist types (precisely the people who would be most likely to venture forth into acts of terror against the US). My point is, by insisting that we 'go it alone', we become the target for vengence. Is this supposed to make us feel safer? He is spoiling for a fight, and he's putting our country on the line. Loch, stock and barrel. Standing aloof from the UN, seems like a precurser to a self fulfilling prophesy to me. If we just take our proper place in the world as a very prominent member of the world's consentual community... THEN, we can claim the moral high ground we have a responsibility to attain. IMHO, of course! Peace.ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Beccy Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:12 PM I'm going to hazard a guess that quite a few of you reading this probably dislike Bush and his administration so much that there is very little they could say or do to please you. Please correct me if this is an incorrect observation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:15 PM In my case, Beccy, your assumption is incorrect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:21 PM Beccy, darlin... I would do a one eighty in about one second flat if ol' George did something in the international arena that inspired my respect. Like Clinton said, "give him a chance"... Soooooooo, Beccy, what is this remarkable attraction you have for GWB? Could'st he ever offend'st thee? ttr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Beccy Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:29 PM ttr- as a matter of fact, I've been powerfully angry at the man several times. I am just getting the impression from this thread that most people are content to make personal insults toward GWB rather than a calm, rational discussion of why they agree or disagree with policy decisions from Bush 43's administration. ... And defending someone does not equal attraction. I'm pregnant, hungry and crabby- my anger is equal opp. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Don Firth Date: 07 Feb 03 - 02:33 PM Beccy, it would go a long way if Bush and his administration were to tell the verifiable truth. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 07 Feb 03 - 03:08 PM T: T's point 1: UN is "sitting back" doing nothing. Well, that is not accurate. In this Morning's Washington Post (Scientist Interviewd in Private, A-1) there is a report that "U.N. weapons experts" interviewing one of Iraq's "scientist linked to the country's arms program". T's Point 2: " No weapons inpectors in Iraq". While technically true this is partly because of the way the inpestions were set up and partly because of the report that Hans Blix made and the waiting period for the Bush administration to make a decision as to weather or not it was going to attack Iraq now or giev the process more time. The team, headed by Hans Blix, has been in constant communication with the Iraqis and will be back in Bagdad this weekend and "has been led to believe that Prtesident Saddam Hussein's will soon relent on two other key issues: a guarentee that Iraq will not try to shoot down U-2 (as if they could) reconnaissance aircraft ... and a commitment to enact legislation permitting a long-term presence of inspectors." (ibid) T's Point 3: "Stonewalling". This is a matter of opinion. The inspectors have had access to everything they have asked to look at. Their *intellegence* has come from the US as to where to look and what to look for and have so far come up empty. With the two provisions mentioned in the previous response, it is apparent that Iraq is making major progress in cooperating. Bush's all out PR effort to paint Iraq as totally uncooperative is just thar. PR and politics. One must keep in mind that Iraq is a country that fully expects to be attacked when Bush has his military in place to do so and given that reality if one were to put themselves in Saddam's shoes for one moment, one might come away with a different perspective on howdifficult it is to prepare one's armies to defend one's country while having one's every trip to the men's room monitored. Give that just a moment's thought. Now, T-Bird, you become very dismissive in sayiny that "we have discussed a propasl for an Emergency Summit" where, unless my feeble mind has erased something, we have spent very little time disussing anything that resembles what I have proposed. Instead, the discussion has been war/no war but the "Summit" has had very little *stage time*. Very little. People just say, "Oh, that won't work" and go back to pounding the drum. Then, Ter, you make misquote me in saying I "couldn't be botheredeading the posts. If you will find *those* words on any of my posts I will kiss yer rosey reb butt in the middle of Muscat Square. What I have said, is that I pass over posts where people a *scraming*. There is a world of difference. Then you again twist what I have said "I couldn't be bothered to investigate the complexities involved". Again, the same offer. What I have said is that I refuse to accept *"homework"* assignment for you or any one else. This was in reponse to an assignment you once tried me to complete for you that would have taken days and days of reading your sources and then write reems and reems of responses. Hey, I have a life and a business to run and don't have time to take on your homework assignments, but hey, you have things that you think I should read in order to qualify me to post here... did you ever think that I could do the same to you. No you wouldn't like it if I said, ""Here, T, read this Greg Palists book "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" and then answer the following 20 questions. So, no, I'm sure with all that is posted here that spending a week of two doing you homework assignments is not going to *enlighten* me to see the world the way you see it... or vic versa. And, yes, I read a lot of stuff here but, like you, I don't read every single word of every single post. I don't reasd every word of every newspsper article. Or book. But that doesn't change my beliefs that I understand what is going on around me in the world otthat I don't have a positon which is pro-human and in harmony with my core values as a Follower of Christ. Peace. Bobert p.s. You suckered me into this homework assignment. Please don't do it again for a while. Like I said. I have a life and I still have to work 6 days a week to keep a roof over my head and the taxes paid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Steve in Idaho Date: 07 Feb 03 - 05:04 PM CarolC - That is a point I will concede. We have not always been the very best of folks. We are human and have made mistakes. Were we to go to the root of why Iraq is where it is one would have to return to England and the Crusades. But we cannot assist the citizenry of Iraq when we are not permitted to and to do so in any name other than Muhamed is a death sentence. Makes it a no-win situation. I'm not a supporter of Christian outreach as I believe they are great at saving souls but crappy at saving people. But even our Peace Corps has been denied entry to assist the local people with labor to meet local needs. I think in more recent times we have made a couple of mistakes. We should have not acquiesced to the UN's "request" that we stop destroying Iraq's Army in the first war. And we should have gone on in and assisted in setting up a more amiable government. Not just to us but to the world. Iraq is not a bad country. It's leadership in harmony with the world has made it a high risk administration to cope with. And when people get scared there is no predicting what they will do. America has a wonderful record of winning the war - it's the peace that continues to elude us. We did well in Europe with the Marshall Plan and in Japan with McArthur's work post WW-II. Since then we've been in a hurry (I believe reflective of our societal trends) and not given the time and patience to really follow through. I'm a supporter of the UN and its support in our concerns with Iraq (How's that for politically correct?) and the probability of Iraq's support for other terrorists who are not going to care one whit about whether or not we go to war to continue their Jihad against us. The more the merrier in this process I think! I believe President Bush made a statement the other day and I really liked it. He said that Saddam Hussein is not America's problem. He is the world's problem. Can we do more? Yes. Should we do more? Yes. I believe that every option we can use prior to war is a good one. But I am not a peace at any price on this one. I firmly believe that if we do not get this settled this time, and in a good way (let that read with the world's support - especially the Muslim world), we may have another short term success with long term problems that will ultimately end life as we know it. I'm hoping for the long term success. But Mr. Hussein has got to go. And Thank You for the nice compliment CarolC - No simple answers - never is - Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:02 PM ;-) All I can say Steve, in response to your 07 Feb 03 - 05:04 PM post is that I would be a lot more comfortable with whatever we do in Iraq if you were the one making the decisions rather than our current administration. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Steve in Idaho Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:11 PM And I can only say I am glad I am not making it. Way too scary for me. Maybe if we took the far left and right of Mudcat, put them in a room, and when they agree do whatever it is they agree to do - do it. Keepin the faith Boss - :-) How are you and your Honey doing Carol?? Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:17 PM Doing good, Steve. Thanks for asking. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST,herc Date: 07 Feb 03 - 06:25 PM Wolfgang's input is exemplary in making this forum worth revisiting. His comments were not "playful," but bobert neither seeks nor deserves sugar coating. In fact, wolfgang's comment may have been served up with a generous helping of diplomacy. Bobert's volume is a little high, at the expense of accuracy. A reasonable request to improve the flow of information around here, and spelling is not the issue. (I don't know anything about dyslexia, but I've heard its good exercise to keep a dairy.) Dan, guest |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: DougR Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:22 PM TTR: I don't understand your comments about Bush not going to the UN! He made a speech before the Security Council last month, and Colin Powell and others got a unanamous vote of the Security Council to send the inspectors back into Iraq. Bush said today that he would be in favor of another resolution at the UN provided it did not weaken 1441. He is under the impression (and I think most thinking people agree)that if the Security Council finds Iraq in material breach of 1441 it will face serious consequencies. What's not clear about that? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: DougR Date: 07 Feb 03 - 07:35 PM Beccy, I suspect your appraisal regarding attitudes toward GWB or more correct than incorrect. If Bush withdrew all the armed forces from the Mid-East (which isn't going to happen) the proverbial complainers here on the Mudcat would still find something about it to bitch about. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:06 PM Yo, Guest, Dan: Not too sure what you're trying to say there, my friend. My post was in response to Teribis's and not much more than that. The observations I have made are not new to this joint, being the resident peacenic. Sorry about the dexlexia but I can't help it. Believe me, it's a pain. I know in my head how to spell most word but don't type very well and then the dexlexia kicks in and when I reread the posts the words look just fine. So if I get them right the first time then fine. If not, my chances of finding the errors are not too good unless I want to sit here with a dictionary and look each one up. It's ahrd to explain but if you understand cubism in art maybe you 'll understand what dexlexics see with printed words. Hey, most of us do learn to read and I somehow got two college degrees but it wasn't easy. Now as fir my beliefs, there are lots of folks who argue war/no war but not ebought to have a vision of a world were war is not the tried and true meathod of dealing with differences between people. It is very possible for mankind to get to that point and mankind, as it becomes more *tribalized* will one day figure out there are no alternatives. We are not far from that point it God's little experiement is to carry on. The world has become way to dangerous for the *luxary* (for a lack of a better term)of war. Way topo dangerous. Mankind does not have too manym opportunities here. This is not doomsday stuff. Just reality. So, yeah, we need very much to start communicating and quit the hating. Peace Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Ebbie Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:06 PM "I don't know anything about dyslexia, but I've heard its good exercise to keep a dairy.)" LOL, great timing. Guest/Dan, you may know more about dyslexia than you realize. Unless you're advocating getting a bunch of cows? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST,Dan Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:24 PM No complaints here, bobert. Just stepping unnecessarily into the third party criticisms of wolfgang which in my opinion were unjustified. I appreciate your tenacity and sincerity. However, if wolfgang might have been implying that beauty is in brevity, then I'd agree with that as well. Spelling is a non-issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST Date: 07 Feb 03 - 08:27 PM yesitwasjustalittlejokethereEb Dan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 07 Feb 03 - 09:08 PM Well, I like that loyalty thing, Dan, but all I did was to thank wolfer for intervening for me with Teribus when I inadvertantly posted "Patriots" instead of "Tomahwaks". Next thing ya know I was being told that maybe I should just go away and not post. Hmmmmmm? I may have a learning disability, but I do have two degrees and have accomplished a lot in my life, am an acomplished artist and musican so to be told that I should just "go away" because of it... just don't cut it my book. Now if it was a joke, then fine. Didn't sound like one... End of story... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST,Dan Date: 09 Feb 03 - 04:09 PM Whoa, yikes, what's this here. I thought that you DIDN'T have a thin skin so there' no harm in constructive criticism about proofreading. We ALL need to do it. When I do it, I delete words, sentences, and reaarange sentences by cut and pasting. The process, mainly making it shorter, has a consequence of improving accuracy. That's the whole point, and nothing more. The "go away" interpretation is unjustified. I assume you post because you want to be persuasive. You have many interesting points and opinions (I'm embarrassed I hadn't even heard of the depleted uranium issue until you brought it up.) But if you (ANY OF US) fall prey to longwindedness, the message is diluted. Communication is impaired. I really regret having bothered to go blabbing into this. My apologies. Back to mostly lurking. (And the joke was the dairy joke, sheesh.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: GUEST Date: 09 Feb 03 - 04:50 PM I went looking up above to see what went wrong here (beats working.) Muliple levels of miscommunication. Wolfgang suggested "if you are to busy to proofread, don't post." Carol jumps in to the defense of dyslexia sufferers everywhere, implying that the issue is spelling. Bobert slides into the same assumption. Several apparently assume that the intended message was "never post, since you never proofread." I read it to say proofread before posting to avoid miscommunication. Ebbie jumps all over a joke as if she'd discovered it. Bobert thinks the joke is on him. . . . . YAAHH Yes, gentlemen, what we have here is a failure to communicate. Danny boy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 09 Feb 03 - 05:08 PM Hey Dan. No misunderstanding on my part. The issue for people with dyslexia and proofreading, is that for someone with dyslexia (unlike someone without dyslexia), proofreading can become so time prohibitive that it would become impossible to post at all. Kind of like asking someone who can't walk to try to get around without a wheelchair. Very cumbersome and time consuming. Personally, I can't see the harm in asking someone who has made a mistake such as the one about patriot missles vs tomahawk missles which one they meant, and just go on from there. As to your point about brevity, I'm partial to brevity myself, but Bobert is hardly the most long-winded poster to this forum. I'd hate for anyone to stop posting just because I don't like the way they write. Although I do appreciate it when people break up their posts into short paragraphs because of one of my learning disabilities (ADHD) which makes it difficult to distinguish individual characters in a field with a lot of visual stimuli. Anyway, I can understand where you're coming from. But I think an understanding of the problems that people with learning disabilities face is a good thing when discussing these kinds of situations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Teribus Date: 10 Feb 03 - 02:30 AM Bobert, My post that you answered above was in response to one of your own when you asked what the "Huff and Puff" had achieved after 12 months. Point 1 - In February 2002 the UN was sitting back and doing nothing Point 2 - In February 2002 there were no UN weapons inspectors in Iraq Point 3 - The lack of Iraqi co-operation was and has been a constant complaint of both Hans Blix and Mohammed AlBaradei - it was not something that Bush, or Blair, invented and threw into the equation. Your proposed "Emergency Middle East Peace Summit" was discussed at great length. Two of the main conditions you outlined (that America should convene it and that all parties were to attend and not be allowed to leave until all points of difference were sorted out) are totally unrealistic, very well intentioned but still totally unrealistic. When a case was put forward as to the why's and wherefores, that was when you came back complaining that you did not have time to dispute the points. The message put across was "It's my idea, my solution, it's brilliant and insightful and I refuse to acknowledge that there are any problems associated with its implimentation." Well Bobert, quite a large number of problems exist, and were very clearly pointed out to you. In short concerning your two main cornerstones, the United States would never be viewed by any participant on the Arab side as an "honest broker", and, you would never succeed in getting all necessary parties to attend under the conditions you laid down. Nobody can leave until it is sorted - How are you going to achieve that Bobert? What sanction could be used to compell and impose this condition? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Greg F. Date: 10 Feb 03 - 08:20 AM And now, Powell turns his smokinng gun on: New York Times Monday, February 10, 2003 A leading Israeli newspaper reported Sunday that Israel and Washington have reached a secret agreement on conditions for ousting Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat after the U.S. topples Saddam. Reached by Knight Ridder Newspapers, spokesmen for both Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv declined to either confirm or deny the report carried in the tabloid Yediot Aharanot under the headline, "After Saddam: It is Going to be Arafat's Turn." And whose "turn" after that? We're back to the bad old days of the unapologetic imperialism of the '50s and '60's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:52 AM Well, T. The Summit Proposal was just that. A "proposal". I understand the "proposals". I am on two town committees and have had many of my "proposals" move forward to the bettermnet of the town. Was the finished product exactly as I "proposed". No, but had I not made them then those ideas would not have been a srpingboard for the progress that came from the "proposal". Now, what I have said about the Summit is a proposal. It isn't too far removed from what Senator Mitchell was proposing. It wasn't too far from what our allie, Sadi Arabia was proposing. But the big bug-aboo was the Bush administration's complete rejection of the proposal. See, that's where you and I differ. You think why peaceful solutions can't work and I think quite the opposite. Hey, Bush didn't give it one moment's thought before dismissing it. If you will recall, these proposals were being floated before the massive resistence movement started. This was in thew days when Powell and Rice were being kept out of the loop by Rumsfeld and Cheney and Bush was not even talking or thinking of the UN. So I'm sticking with my premise that a Summit would do a lot more good than a War and I'm sticking to my observation that the Bush administartion has no interest in a foriegne policy where it has to listen, rather than threaten and bully. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Teribus Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:00 AM The big bug-a-boo as you call it to the Saudi Plan was that the Palestinians (Yasser Arafat) rejected it, Hamas rejected it totally and the Israeli's rejected it conditionally. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM Well, Isreal's rejection shpould come as no surprise at all since Sharon and Bush are in lockstep. Yasser Arafat, had the US gotten behind it, would have come on board. Like I said, T, you're looking for excuses on why peaceful solutions don't work. And so was and is the Bush administartion. They are only interested in being *the boss* and carving out what they perceive to be a new world order where the US calls all the shots. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Teribus Date: 11 Feb 03 - 04:09 AM Bobert, In your post you say that I am: "....looking for excuses on why peaceful solutions don't work." There is of course another way of viewing that. I am looking at the realities that affect the situation, the real problems. I mentioned three participants PLO, Hamas and Israel - the first two rejected the proposal outright the Israeli's rejection was conditional. Now out of those three responses which one appears most likely to negotiate? - The Israeli response, i.e. we will talk about this provided certain conditions are met. Of the other two, the PLO could possibly have been talked round - The Hamas position is clear and intransigent - their goal is the destruction of the state of Israel. Where is the basis for negotiation? The simple truth is that no one can impose a peace settlement on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - the parties immediately involved have to arrive at a compromise solution. The reality of the situation, Bobert, is that at present the situation and circumstances required to get these people talking just does not exist. That is an explanation, not an excuse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Wolfgang Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:03 AM Coming back after a weekend and finding this... I don't think that people with learning disabilities like dyslexia should be kept from participating in public debate just because of their disability, do you Wolfgang? (Carol) No, I don't, and I thought I had never posted anything remotely similar to that. I do a lot of proofreading and I know what is expected from me: First, and foremost, to check a last time all the facts and, second, to eliminate minor errors like spelling. In the context of my previous posts, I would have thought it was clear that spelling was not in my mind at all when tackling Bobert. Spelling only bothers me when it interferes with the understanding or with the finding of information and Bobert has done nothing wrong in this respect in his posts here in this thread. What bothers me is the wrong information and not how it is spelt. But Bobert has for instance written 'Bagdad' instead of 'Iraq'. This is not a spelling error. I admit it has made me angry that Bobert has in no way acknowledged the correction. I would have expected a simple three-word sentence like 'I have erred' or 'I stand corrected' but there was nothing of that kind. When I asked him again he posted that he has a busy life. I rephrase the central sentence of my last post and avoid the word 'proofread' that may have led some of you to read something into my sentence that I had never meant: If you are too busy to check your facts, don't post that particular post. No implications involved about (a) spelling and (b) other posts. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Richie Date: 11 Feb 03 - 09:47 AM Wolfgang, I misunderstood your comment about Bobert's spelling. Ater all, if I took the time to spell check every post my spelling would improve. Thanks for explaning what you meant, which I agree with. -Richie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: CarolC Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:03 PM Thanks Wolfgang. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Colin Powell finds the 'Smoking Gun' From: Bobert Date: 11 Feb 03 - 12:37 PM Now, you even got me confused as to which piece of infomation is in question. I *thought* this all started because I had referred to a "Tomahawk" as a "Patriot". And I did make that correction. So what else does anyone *think* needs correcting? And, no, Teribus, I'm not asking forf a lengthy homework assignment from you unless you want one from me, thank you. And I agree with you that under the current situation is is impossibl;e to get the Isrealis and Palestinians to talk. But the operative part of your assetion is "current situation". That's waht I'm saying. Einstein said, "One cannot solve a problem with the same consciousness that created it." Thats exactly what I have been saying and thats what the millions of people who this weekend will be marching around the world this weekend are saying. That's what Martin Luther King, Jr. was saying In Birmingham and Selma. Bobert |