Dave Bulmer (discussion)

Subject: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:47 PM

I want to drop Dave Bulmer a note. Where should I address it? No rude replies please!

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM

Try:
Celtic Music,
Harrogate,
N. Yorkshire
It's on an industrial estate and I don't know the actual street. He won't answer, of course.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM

Address, phone, fax and Dave Bulmer's direct line are available on the Musical Traditions site: Mustrad Addresses.

Mick

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:37 AM

Thanks for the info

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:36 PM

Oh for fuck's sake.....

The guy runs a business. So did all the people he did business with. Since when did he become the antichrist?

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:29 AM

To Chris B   - you really should read the long article about Mr Bulmer and his business practices which appeared in The Observer some years back. If you havent worked him out when you do read it,you will be in something of a minority!

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:40 AM

Andy,

Yeah, yeah, I know. I met the bloke once and didn't like him much. And I feel sorry for Nic Jones, though if he's getting the full range of benefits he's entitled to he may well have an income comparable to what he might have expected from royalties if he'd signed a different deal (with Bill Leader, who originally recorded him)- not that it's any of my (or your) business. But one of the major gripes against Bulmer seems to be that he's sitting on the tapes of lots of folk records from the 60s and 70s - which he presumably paid someone for. Does it really matter that much in the great scheme of things that you can't buy the first Swan Arcade LP anymore?

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:47 AM

Chris B - The problem seems to be NOT that we cant buy the first Swan Arcade LP but that artists are being prevented from doing any thing with material they recorded and which Mr Bulmer now owns the reproduction rights to . Or at least , IF he is going to permit them access to what ,in my opinion , is THEIRS they cant make any money out of it !

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM

Well, there's the rub, isn't it? If he does own the rights how did he come by them? I can understand how artists may be frustrated at not having access to their own old recordings but presumably no-one forced any of them to sign their rights away at gunpoint. I would love to be able to buy 'Rout of the Blues' but I missed it first time round and I've managed to live without it.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:31 PM

Just to put a spanner in the works

Rout of the Blues has been re-issued. I saw it on line. It must be one of DB's as it was on Leader
Cheers
LL (who's learnt to keep his head down in the great Dave Bulmer debate)

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM

Probably CDR. Probably no royalties paid. Probably no harm done though.

Debate: who's the biggest shit on the folk scene, Dave Bulmer of Celtic Music or Ian A. Anderson of Folk Roots?

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: treewind
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM

if he does own the rights how did he come by them

In the case of Leader and at least one other label, by buying bankrupt stock from the receiver. His legal entitlement to the rights is not in question.

Hasn't this all been gone through enough times already?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:20 PM

Yes,Rout of the Blues is a CDR. No, there will be no royalties paid until a copy is sold. A while back, I asked anyone who's been stiffed by Celtic Music to notify me, and I'd make good on royalty payments--so far, no applicants.

And yes, CAMSCO Music carries all of Celtic Music's releases. Including the Leader label, Dambuster label and a bunch of others.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 10:23 AM

Dick,

Thanks for that. I may well be in touch.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,George.
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 11:34 PM

If as Dick Greenhaus says, nobody want's to buy The Rout of the Blues, then the English folk scene really has hit an all time low.
If the Dransfields can't sell, then IMHO there is little chance
for anyrhing else the odiuos Bulmer might hold.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM

Perhaps the boycott is working

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:44 AM

Dave Bulmer is just a subject the begrudgers love to whine about in order to be accepted by their peer group. It is an unwritten rule of the contemporary English neo-folk scene that one must have the Folk Roots version of the anti-Bulmer rap down, if one is to be accepted down at the folk club.

The rest of the world music community be damned, of course. By now, everyone should know that only England's opinions matter...

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 09:38 AM

It's got nothing to do with England's opinions. It's a beef that many people on the folk scene have with Dave Bulmer. If he is selling CDs and not passing on royalties they have a right to whinge, in fact thay have a right to whinge anyway - in this case they have a reason to whinge.

But why pick on England, anyway? A look at Google will reveal he has upset Scots and Irish as well.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Burner
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 01:52 PM

So how many of you sainted contribituters have NEVER coppied a CD or tape or LP? Let them without sin cast the first stone. Just about any one who deals in folk music recordings, work with Messers Celtic Music/ D.Bulmer, big name artists and agences will sell them any amount of material. As mentioned, above, and in other threads on this subject, the main thrusts for the vitrole comes from two "Folk personalaties", who's empire building egoes were dented when encountering Mr Bulmer.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM

Bulmer doesn't pay royalties, because he isn't required by law to pay them. When you buy the rights to the music, that means the rights to the royalties.

The demonization of Bulmer is done by people who believe he should, out of the kindness of his heart, pay the royalties to musicians who signed the rights to their music away decades ago, so no longer have a right to be paid royalties.

If a legal case against him could be won, we'd have seen it done by now. It can't, so people whinge about what a bastard he is.

And BTW, I'm not suggesting he isn't a bastard. I'm just saying the whole demonization of Bulmer has been a tempest in a teapot by musicians who weren't savvy enough to hand onto the rights to their music. Which includes a large segment of the folk scene in Britain. Including some who were even warned off Bulmer in advance, but signed it all over to him anyway.

There is no cure for stupidity, as they say.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:39 PM

Let's keep something straight-- Royalties are due only when a CD is sold . If one wishes to castigate Mr. Bulmer for not having sold the CDs, that's ones's right...but then don't bitch about royalties not being paid. And now that Celtic Music has released some of the long-awaited titles, a boycott is the sure way to make sure that royalties won't be paid.

I'd strongly suggest that artists signing a contract with any publisher insist on a clause that states that if publication stops for a period of X (pick your own X) years, rights revert to the artist.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:13 PM

Don't go confusing the issue with facts there, Dick. You'll take the winds out of the "let's whinge on forever about Bulmer" contingent. Then the only thing they'd have to whinge on forever about is Mike Harding.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,TS in US
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:17 AM

hi,

    I'm in the U.S. and a folk fan, sign me up for a commando raid on Bulmer's archives!! What an unjust guy. How does he sleep at night?

         TS

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: English Jon
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:58 AM

I have no idea about the right or wrong of any of Mr Bulmers actions,
but he is on the MU blacklist.

Cheers,
J

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM

The issue of the ability of a liquidator or trustee in bankruptcy to sell rights free from the obligation to pay the royalties originally contractually provided for has been a bone of contention since the Bankruptcy Act 1907 (and must have been so before in order to have been legislated for in that Act).

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Ralphie
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM

And it all goes round again

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:32 AM

Does this mean that I can legally set up a company, sign up artistes with promises of huge income, record their material, go bankrupt, buy the rights back and then issue the recordings without having to pay any royalties?

Looks like a business opportunity.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM

Pavanne-
Yes you can--as long as you can find arists that are hungry enough/eager enough/dumb enough to sign such a contract. The 60's were full of such artists.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM

I missed the BBC prog the other night on the way the Bay City Rollers got ripped off. Did anyone record it?

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Brenda
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:31 PM

Dick Greenhaus wrote: "as long as you can find arists that are hungry enough/eager enough/dumb enough to sign such a contract. The 60's were full of such artists."

And so were the '60s, probably. Remind me, how does an artist get to be hungry? And tell me about your own waistline . . .

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:00 AM

Pavane - of course you can (that is if you are Bulmer with the bent one at your side to draw up ambiguous and verbose contracts). After all Celtic and its derivatives have made it an art form.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:42 AM

Pavane,

Is that what happened? If so, who promised the artists this huge income? Was it the person with whom they originally signed their contracts - before their original labels went bust and Bulmer bought the rights?

At least the tapes still exist and didn't end up in a skip somewhere. As long as that is the case there is always a chance of a fair settlement - though I don't think the hate campaign against Bulmer makes that any more likely. If I was Bulmer I'd probably just say 'Sod it' and bin the lot.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Dita
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM

My understanding from Dick Gaughan, who started to remaster some of the Leader/Trailer tapes when he still had a relationship with DB, was that many of the tapes had deteriorated to such an extent, that remastering from a mint record was a better option.

John

PS However, it strikes me that the first four posts were simply a request for info , which was supplied, until DB appologist, "Guest Chris B" turned it into Celtic Music 7.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:46 PM

Dita,

Don't give me that. You know perfectly well that no-one starts a thread about Bulmer on this forum without having an agenda.

I'm not apologising for anyone and I'm not apologising to anyone - least of all you.

Bulmer may indeed be a crook - but I don't see any reason to take your word for it.

If Dick wants to re-master from mint records tell him I've got a couple. If the legal side gets sorted he's very welcome to drop by. You aren't.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM

Would you take Dick Gaughan's word for it? (See archives, uk.music.folk).

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:44 AM

Probably not

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: *Laura*
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM

How many times have we done this now!?!?

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM

Laura,

Too bloody many.

'Guest', how do you know whose word I would or wouldn't take? As it happens, I would take Dick's word about almost anything as I know him to be a person of the highest integrity. However, the link that has been quoted leads to a post in which he takes care to factually record an issue on which he strenuously disagrees with a decision of Bulmer's - and on the information available I agree with Dick on this one. What he doesn't do is use the internet as a kangaroo court or resort to snide, cowardly personal attacks. He's more of a man than that.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:01 AM

Mr. Gaughan is also a man with an anti-Bulmer agenda though, and therein lies the rub.

I seem to recall him once saying that Bulmer's tapes constituted a "national treasure".

I remain unconvinced everyone should place quite that high a value on Bulmer's collection.

While Mr. Gaughan is a fine musician and by all accounts a decent enough lad, he done his share to contribute to the fracas and fuel the hyperbolic chamber on this one, mate.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Betsy
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 04:56 AM

To Joe Offer.........

Hiya Joe ,
Who's the Guest defending Bulmer ? I thought we were going to stop the anonymity - especially with an emotive subject like this. How do we know Guest isn't Bulmer or someone close to him.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:13 AM

The guest defending Bulmer posted in April, 2005. Our policy prohibiting anonymous posting began a few months ago, in 2007. It would be unfair to delete anonymous messages posted before the policy was instituted.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Betsy
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 10:00 AM

I was going to send you a PM but I'll do it publicly .
Many apologies Joe - Silly Me !!!!!! I hadn't noticed the dates.I hope you can picture me biting my fist as I'm typing this .
Cheers
Betsy

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Ruaridh.G.
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM

If this subject moves into the philosophical territory of altruism and motivation for one's actions, then that's one thing. On the other hand anyone who would question Dick Gaughan's integrity is obviously so far removed from reality that they disqualify themselves from being taken seriously.

Listen to what Gaughan has to say on the subject - he is not a liar.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:54 PM

Dick Gaughan, has always struck me as somebody who has integrity.
Malcolm Douglas,what is the relevance of the archives you mention.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 03:11 PM

They contain (or did when I posted to this thread two years ago) a number of discussions on the whole Bulmer question, including relevant and accurate information from Dick Gaughan.

The archive is now administered by Google, and can be searched at  http://groups.google.com/group/uk.music.folk/topics.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 10:48 AM

Happy New Year to everyone posting to the various Bulmer threads. Yet another year has gone by - and we enter another - what will our super business man and his bag carrier be doing this year? Perhaps this could be the year when the two of them finally come face to face with justice. Pipe dream?? Who knows, but I live in hope.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Seamus
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:02 PM

Well I happen to have known Dick Gaughan and dave bulmer and
all I can say is this    "tis a great insult to Dick to have his name, and Dave bulmer's, mentioned in the very same breath.

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:22 PM

Andy.
Yep, another year passes.
Nothing changes.
Nothing is forgotten
Regards
Ralpie

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:40 AM

Hi Ralphie, keep the faith!

Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 06:26 AM

How about another angle?

When we record a CD ourselves, we have to pay the MCPS who administer royalties in respect of the copyrights on the music, lyrics and arrangements.

We then place MPCS on the insert to certify that this has been done.
For small-scale recordings, they take our word on how many have been produced, and charge us accordingly at a scale rate.

The pressing companies for proper CDs make returns (to MCPS?) on how many copies they have pressed, so you can't avoid them knowing. It is possible to avoid this by burning CDR's and just not telling them, but this is defrauding the copyright holders.

Copyrights like this obviously CANNOT be avoided by bankrupcy, as the composer of a tune may have no contract with the recording company. Whoever issues the recording is liable for the royalties.

(Logically, therefore, I suppose that copyright on songs and tunes written by the performers, and also their arrangements, should remain with the artists, not with the recording company - is that right? Remembering that Nic Jones wrote some of his tunes,, and arranged almost all of them. Legal advice required here)

Therefore, if one finds CDR (or CD) on sale with (just one) copyright SONG or TUNE and no MCPS logo, there is a legal problem, which MCPS would probably want to investigate. And copyright is claimed on a surprising number of 'traditional' songs and tunes. (Wild Mountain Thyme, for one well known example).

If the CDR DOES have an MPCS logo, then the MCPS would presumably know how many were declared. And the royalties are paid at this point, NOT when the disk is retailed.

We know there are CDR's out there, does anyone have details of any such recordings which may contain copyright songs or tunes?