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Bill Leader / Trailer Records

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GUEST,Guest 28 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Guestwho 07 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 07 Jul 14 - 03:45 PM
GUEST 07 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,SB 07 Jul 14 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,SB 07 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM
GUEST,matt milton 08 Jul 14 - 03:36 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 08 Jul 14 - 06:03 AM
GUEST,matt milton 08 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,matt milton 08 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Spleen Cringe 08 Jul 14 - 09:49 AM
Hagman 08 Jul 14 - 08:31 PM
GUEST,LeslieLomas 05 May 15 - 02:37 PM
GUEST 05 May 15 - 03:41 PM
Betsy 05 May 15 - 06:39 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 06 May 15 - 05:52 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 06 May 15 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 06 May 15 - 06:22 AM
Jim Carroll 06 May 15 - 07:17 AM
GUEST,John Moulden 06 May 15 - 08:25 AM
GUEST,Guest 06 May 15 - 10:41 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 06 May 15 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,Guest 06 May 15 - 06:43 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 15 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Guest 06 May 15 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 06 May 15 - 08:18 PM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 06 May 15 - 08:49 PM
Steve Shaw 06 May 15 - 09:10 PM
Jim Carroll 07 May 15 - 02:38 AM
GUEST,Dave 07 May 15 - 02:57 AM
Hagman 07 May 15 - 05:26 AM
GUEST,John Moulden 07 May 15 - 09:10 AM
Jim Martin 08 May 15 - 07:47 AM
Spleen Cringe 08 May 15 - 09:12 AM
GUEST,Steve 08 May 15 - 10:02 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 15 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 08 May 15 - 10:59 AM
Jim Carroll 08 May 15 - 11:30 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 08 May 15 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 08 May 15 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Guest 09 May 15 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 09 May 15 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 09 May 15 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,LeslieLomas 15 May 15 - 09:28 PM
Hagman 15 May 15 - 10:57 PM
GUEST,LeslieLomas 16 May 15 - 08:50 PM
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Subject: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 28 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM

Does anyone have any news about the fate of the archive of Trailer Records material recorded by Bill Leader in the 1970's, and controlled most recently by the late Dave Bulmer? Is there any prospect that any of that material will be re-released in a digital format?

It is simply a crime that the two albums by Robin and Barry Dransfield ("The Rout of the Blues" and "Lord of All I Behold") have never been released on CD or through a digital download. Those albums are truly classic gems!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guestwho
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM

Not too sure about the rest of the catalogue (Other than the obvious - and tragic - lack of Nic Jones reissues amongst many others) but I have just been lent a CD copy of "The Rout Of The Blues" released on Leader Records in 2001, LERCD2011. So it is out there!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 03:45 PM

Just to emind folks that an augmented version of the Leader LP of Cecilia Costello has recently been issued by Musical Traditions.

Cecilia Costello. Old Fashioned Songs. Musical Traditions. MTCD 363-4.

I had hoped that the death of the unfortunate Mr Bulmer would mark the reissue of all the Leader catalogue material. But as of so far, nothing.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM

The Cecilia Costello CD is no guide to things becoming available. The rights appear to have remained with the BBC who made the original recordings.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:22 PM

Just do it. Publish and be damned - the guy's dead FGS - make as good a digital copy as poss. from a mint LP - remove the pops and clicks - and re-issue the thing as a CD. Do it overseas and avoid UK copyright laws. Simples.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 07 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM

BTW I have mint unplayed 'Songs For Every Season' if anyone want to re-issue those.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 03:36 AM

"Just do it. Publish and be damned - the guy's dead FGS - make as good a digital copy as poss. from a mint LP - remove the pops and clicks - and re-issue the thing as a CD. Do it overseas and avoid UK copyright laws. Simples."

Too right! I would urge any musicians that made those albums to stick them up on Bandcamp at the very least.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 06:03 AM

Guest. The rights to the Cecilia Costello recordings expired some years ago, before the recent revision of the law on mechanical copyright. The recordings are therefore in the public domain. That is why Rod Stradling felt safe in issuing that one.

However, most of the Leader LPs were specially recorded by Leader Sound in the 1970s. Therefore, they are still in copyright - to someone.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM

I suspect that GUEST, sB already knows that. He/she did after all write "publish and be damned".

I'm a great believer in copyright law in general but, like any truly moral person, I believe that what's important and what's right supersedes the law of the land. Ideally of course, the musicians that made all those locked-up Bulmer albums would now be distributing them themselves, throwing caution to the wind. (And, really, there's not much "caution" that would be involved: as pointed out above, who's gonna complain?)

I've always wanted to hear the "John & Sandra" album (by John Faulkner & Sandra Kerr). If anyone has a copy of it and is prepared to send me the MP3s, I'll gladly donate £15 to the charity of their choice.

I'd love to see all those albums "liberated" via Bandcamp or Soundcloud, or of course full official reissue. But the latter is not that likely to happen. Personally I think some laws are made to be broken.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM

(Having typed the above, the thought was nagging at me that the particular rare record I was referring to might not have actually been on Leader or Trailer anyway. And lo and behold, a quick google search reveals that it wasn't - it was on Argo! D'oh! Oh well ... the suggestion still stands!)


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 09:49 AM

Matt, if you're FB friends with Quentin Keane, he might be able to help... he did the excellent Folkcatalogue's Argo Records blog.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Hagman
Date: 08 Jul 14 - 08:31 PM

Guestwho wrote: "I have just been lent a CD copy of "The Rout Of The Blues" released on Leader Records in 2001, LERCD2011. So it is out there!"

My understanding of the CDs of the Trailer stuff that does circulate is that they were CD-Rs made and sold by Celtic Music from vinyl transcriptions. Often seen on eBay. It was quote a few years ago, as well - audio transcription software has improved heaps since then - about time someone did a proper job (assuming here that the master tapes are missing or out of reach).


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,LeslieLomas
Date: 05 May 15 - 02:37 PM

Any further developments re. the Trailer/Leader vinyl since this discussion last year? I'm desperate to get digitized versions of the old Muckram Wakes recordings. Any info greatly appreciated.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 15 - 03:41 PM

I would that thought that the Bulmer estate would have tried to realise the assets by now. I rather fear that the master tapes simply no longer exist.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Betsy
Date: 05 May 15 - 06:39 PM

Guest - We live in hope - I'm sure they do exist but I worry some lawyer / accountant is trying to put a price on them.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 May 15 - 05:52 AM

The possibility that someone might have thrown the master tapes out worries me too. However, if they no longer exist, that is not the insurmountable problem it might seem. I have nearly all the Leader LPs (but none of the Trailers). They're all in pretty good condition and remastered copies could certainly be taken from them.

That still leaves us with two problems.

1.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 May 15 - 06:04 AM

Sorry folks. I don't know what happened there but I managed to send the post before I'd finished and without going anywhere near the GO button! Here's the whole post. Can some kindly mudelf remove the previous one? Thanks

The possibility that someone might have thrown the master tapes out worries me too. However, if they no longer exist, that is not the insurmountable problem it might seem. I have nearly all the Leader LPs (but none of the Trailers). They're all in pretty good condition and remastered copies could certainly be taken from them.

That though leaves us with two problems.

1. We still have the usual shedload of legal difficulties which surround the reissue of any recorded material in copyright.

2. Did Leader just sell the finalised masters and unsold LPs to Dave Bulmer, or did he sell him all the stuff he recorded?

I ask, because record producers usually record more than would have comfortably fitted on a 12" LP. Therefore, are there lying in a vault somewhere unissued recordings that never made it onto the LPs by Charlie Wills, John Maguire etc? If so, are they salvageable?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 15 - 06:22 AM

Unless any existing tapes have been kept in correct archival storage conditions
for all these decades.
The current owners may find all they have been hoarding
are boxes containing reels of coagulated mildewed compost...😢

At the very least, they may need to be carefully baked and repaired by 'pro' restoration facilities.
With no guarantees of usable audio quality...

Otherwise the first attempt at playback might result in irepairable damage
or complete destruction.

Tape Salvage & Transfer


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 May 15 - 07:17 AM

"I've always wanted to hear the "John & Sandra" album (by John Faulkner & Sandra Kerr). If anyone has a copy of it and is prepared to send me the MP3s, I'll gladly donate £15 to the charity of their choice."
Contact me if you can Matt - don't think you're a member (thought you were)
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 06 May 15 - 08:25 AM

Robin Morton's recordings of John Maguire are still held by him with publicly audible copies at ITMA.Hugh Shields' recordings of Eddie Butcher & others are there also.

I have a number of mint copies of the LP 'Come Day, Go Day, God Send Sunday' by John Maguire. They are for sale, if anyone wishes to contact me at jmoul81075 AT aol.com.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 May 15 - 10:41 AM

Most of the above, apart from Fred, Jim & John, seem to assume that the recordings in question have a real artistic value and that in itself overrides any fiscal value.

They also seem to assume that those other than the copyright holders, properly obtained, have a greater right to the material.

This issue has been going on for far too long without anyone ever suggesting that it be tried in law.

If those making the most noise feel so strongly about it then by all means form a group/liason/co-operative and get some finance together and take it to the courts.

PRS will love you to bits for enhancing their coffers.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 06 May 15 - 12:23 PM

Guest. I'm not sure what you are driving at, but your opening sentence is incorrect. I most certainly do believe that artistic value overrides fiscal value. If it were otherwise, what do you think would have happened to the music of Charley Patton or Bessie Smith or to Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Hot Sevens recordings?

In case you're wondering, the record companies junked the masters of these and huge numbers of other recording artists during the 1930s, because they believed they had become financially worthless and therefore not worth keeping.

The only reason we know anything at all about early recorded blues, jazz, country music etc., is because of the tireless efforts of collectors and enthusiasts, who went to enormous lengths to find copies of the original 78s, and then took the trouble to re-release them on LP and CD. And that for reasons of artistic, rather than fiscal value.

JFTR, copyright is an enormous pain in the arse, and the probbaly the sole reason why the Leader LPs have never been reissued. However, I am certainly not prepared to bend the law on this one, and I doubt if anybody else is. That is the reason for the impasse.

Feel free to snigger all you want, but if you've nothing constructive to say, I suggest that you don't say it.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 May 15 - 06:43 PM

What I am driving at Fred is that the copyright has been bought and paid for.

Hairbrained schemes to release bootleg CDs are not worth discussing as you seem to agree.

With regard to artistic versus fiscal value I admit I put this rather clumsily and would agree with your comments. That said is it fair to expect someone who has bought something that no one else wanted at the time should then be expected to give it away?

And... there was no snigger intended.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 15 - 07:14 PM

Who's talking about giving it away? For decades there has been money to be made from the material in question. Not a fortune, but better than the nothing made so far, and with at least a chance of some fair play for the artists involved. Are you Bulmer's uncle?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 06 May 15 - 07:44 PM

English is a very strange language.

A lot of English people don't understand it.

Read through all the threads Steve and then tell me no one is talking about giving it away.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 15 - 08:18 PM

Guest - obviously, not all opinions expressed over the years on this subject
are realistic, sensible, reasonable, legal...etc...

But from a fresh, objective perspective
the whole sorry saga has been mishandled one way or another.

If interested parties have entrenched their positions in this impasse,
surely it is still not too late for serious discussion seeking a fair mutual resolution...

Other long bitter disputes over rights ownership and 'lost' tapes
are now finally reaching agreement.

I am looking at one newly 'discovered', remastered and lovingly packaged CD
on my shelf right now,
tapes that was feared lost forever due to intractable band & record label in-fighting only a few years ago.

So maybe room for hope and optimism...???


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 May 15 - 08:49 PM

oops - I buggered the grammar of that last paragraph with sloppy late night
cut n copy n paste editing....😬


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 May 15 - 09:10 PM

Who's talking about giving it away, you ask...?

That said is it fair to expect someone who has bought something that no one else wanted at the time should then be expected to give it away?


Why, YOU are! :-)


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 15 - 02:38 AM

It's rather sad to see traditional songs being discussed in terms of copyright - sign of the times, I suppose.
I'm sure Bulmer and those who came after have God (and the laws of copyright) on their side, but it goes against the spirit of sharing the music that I knew the folk song revival I belonged to used to be.
Now, it seems, the issue of ownership over-rides the principle of 'passing the music on'.
I still get angry at the thought that the impoverished Travelling man who gave us some ouf our great versions of traditional ballads, died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Roscommon, while a well-heeled musician who has virtually no interest in the tradition owns rights to one of our rarest ballads - funny old world!!
I know that some of Leader's sources were not part of the oral tradition, other than having borrowed from it, but some where.
The approach we always took to every old singer was recorded was, "If it's not passed on, it will die" - with out exception, they accepted that and freely gave us what we wanted, and we kept our end of the bargain by passing on what we were given.
Maybe not a "funny old world" - just a sad one.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 07 May 15 - 02:57 AM

Asking people to give things away when they may have some value is going a bit far, but when they sit on the recordings without using them its a bit different. Use it or lose it I say.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Hagman
Date: 07 May 15 - 05:26 AM

Guest-LeslieLomas, if you care to join the community and PM me, I have encouraging news about your request re: Muckram Wakes that may ease some of your desperation.

Vote early and often up there in UK, you lot....


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 07 May 15 - 09:10 AM

I'd not even be looking in this forum if I did not have a great regard for the intrinsic and social worth of traditional music and its derivatives. However, like everything else, it exists in a fiscal and legal context. There's a balance to be struck and it's not likely to be struck without a bit of thought. As it happens, Fred and Jim are probably the two most knowledgeable and committed people to have contributed to this thread - they know the expense and effort that goes into keeping music alive - long may they do so.

Incidentally, I wish everybody would include their names in guest posts. Making anonymous criticisms is not acceptable to me.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Jim Martin
Date: 08 May 15 - 07:47 AM

Very well said, John!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 08 May 15 - 09:12 AM

The Trailer stuff, where we are generally talking about recordings of living singers, some of whom are still working, is a potentially tricky issue as they are clearly commercial recordings made to profit from. Having said that, the artists who made the music could take a cue from Matt's 'publish and be damned' suggestion and bootleg their own albums. Given the length of time it is since the rights to the recordings have been exercised, some may feel it's a risk worth taking - whatever the potential value, in real terms, the rights have absolutely zero value to anyone, the present owners included, while they sit pointlessly gathering dust.There might even be an argument that 'reclaiming' them after so much time has elapsed is perfectly legitimate. Having said that, it's increasingly difficult to sell reissue CDs even in small runs unless its's something really sought after or special.

With the Leader recordings of traditional singers, it may be a different story. Though a small number of people may want to own copies of these albums purely for listening pleasure, I'd wager that they would be of most interest to singers and musicians, folklorists, researchers, ethnomusicologists and so on. The easiest thing here would be to make good quality vinyl rips and make the sound files available as free downloads or streams for research purposes. This could probably be done legitimately via a library or archive or less legitimately through links to Mediafire or a similar service. No physical products, no scope for making a profit.

There's a perfectly valid argument that field recordings of traditional singers, who were never singing for commercial gain in the first place, have no place in the private collection of someone who has no intention of doing anything with them - especially when the current copyright holders didn't even make the recordings in the first place. Yes, let them physically hold on to their property if that's important to them, in that no-one is looking to take custody of the master tapes or assume ownership of the rights to the recordings. But let the genie out of the bootle. Liberating a part of our shared cultural heritage may be theft, but is theft of something that is clearly of little value to the owner, and as long as no-one else tries to profit from the recordings, I really don't think there are any ethical issues at stake.

IMHO.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 08 May 15 - 10:02 AM

Can't someone make the Bulmers an offer for what is left, although I suspect much of it is too damaged to be of much use. I'd be happy to make a donation


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 15 - 10:42 AM

" I suspect much of it is too damaged to be of much use"
I hope this is an assumption and not based on personal knowledge
There is no reason why reel-to-reel material should be damaged beyond use unless it has been maliciously mishandled
As a storage system, it proved extremely stable - I was once told by someone in Topic that any print-through that was going to happen, would do o within the first hour of it being reeeled onto the spool and the only way to avoid this was to "find a building with a very high building and hang each length of tape from the roof".
All the recordings we have issued have been taken from reel-to-reel, most of it dating back to the mid-1970s - (no great problems) and the storytelling tape we did for Malcom Taylor in the VWML includes tales recorded for 'The Bg Hewer' and 'The Travelling People Radio Ballads in the 1960s (but not used on them) - again, no problem
Some of our taped 'hoardings' date back to the mid-1960s - and the few problems we have encountered are more to do with the fact that we were forced to seek out the cheapest tape we could find rather than how old they are.
Personally, my interests lie in the recordings of source singers rather than the revival ones, not for research or academic study, but it would be nice to think others were able to get the same pleasure we did from listening to the older singers
I would have thought that the first step in getting access to the younger singers stuff would be to engage the support of the singers concerned or their families.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 15 - 10:59 AM

Jim - have you had a quick read of the article I've linked to earlier in this and previous Bulmer threads..?

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/fxcopyroom.htm

fingers crossed, the owner of any existing Leader tapes will be as lucky as you have...


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 May 15 - 11:30 AM

I hadn't PFR, but I can only rely on our own experiences.
Some of our tape collection has survived for forty off years, often in the most appalling conditions, thanks to our ignorance.
At one time it was housed in a freezing cold warehouse for six months when we were made homeless by an incompetent solicitor (lets kill all the lawyers)
Over the last year I have been more concerned with shifting some of our CDs onto hard disc as the CG format is itself unstable - and don't get me started on external discs which crash.
The solution is to archive copies what you have with somebody as many times as you can in case of unforeseen occurrences.
I suggest that the least of your worries should be the state of the material at this stage.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 08 May 15 - 11:42 AM

Please, will folks stop worrying about the state of the master tapes. As I've pointed out several times already, I have copies of most of the Leaders and they are in sufficiently good condition for high quality masters to be copied from them.

In any event, I can think of several instances of master tapes being rescued from skips and dustbins before being (re)released on LP or CD. I can even think of one set of masters of an important Irish singer, which ended up dumped under hessian on the roof of an office block. You would never believe it to listen to the digital transfer.

For that matter, anyone who is interested in early blues or old time country music, as I am, will know that the vast majority of reissues have been pressed, not from the original masters, but from scratched and battered 78s that enthusiasts picked up from fleamarkets etc. If they can be returned to saleable condition, then so can the material in the Leader catalogue.

Earlier John Moulden described me as being knowledgable in this sort of field. Vastly overrated I'm afraid. However, I have had some luck in pushing the right buttons, both in terms of things I've worked on, and in terms of projects which other people have been involved with.

This one has me stymied I'm afraid, simply because the costs of leasing the recordings would add a large overhead to what would already be a loss making venture.

If anyone can get their head around that one, I'd be glad to hear from them. That's the issue we should be worrying about, not some vague possibility that the original masters are no longer for for purpose.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 15 - 12:12 PM

Fred - fair enough, I'm mostly in agreement...

Expert 'pro' vinyl rips of 'mint' LPs can be a sheer pleasure to listen to.

But sadly all vinyl pressing were not all equal high quality.
Even mint copies of many first generation pressing can still sound shite,
due to poor mastering, clumsy pressing, and cheap shoddy recycled vinyl.

Obtaining the best quality audio source for digital transfer should always be encouraged & prioritised.

Let's encourage the preservation and release of vital original master tapes where ever possible,
not risk discarding them to decay and oblivion
because of seemingly insurmountable petty legal ownership disputes.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 May 15 - 04:56 AM

"petty legal ownership disputes"

Try telling that to PRS & MCPS


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 09 May 15 - 06:20 AM

punkfolkrocker. Have you ever listened to a Leader's LP? If you have then you'll know that the sound quality was way ahead of any specialist folk label at that time.

In any event, as I've said over and over and over and over again, till I'm blue in the face, we don't know what sort of state the master tapes are in. Until we do, we won't know whether some alternative source would be neccesary.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 09 May 15 - 08:20 AM

Fred - you seem to be getting a bit over heated pushing a non issue as far as I'm concerned
- we are actually in agreement.

My point is, it is because of respect for Mr Leader's outstanding skill as an engineer and producer,
that so many folks emphasise that Vinyl rips should only be used as a last resort,
only if tapes are beyond reasonable doubt completely lost or damaged beyond use.

No one should just dismiss the importance of the master tapes
[or better still the multitracks, whenever still in existence]

I was one of the unaware suckers who purchased a CD [factory pressed, not burned CDr]
of "Bright Phoebus" from a certain Amazon seller.

First quick listen through budget small hi fi speakers was ok.

More detailed listen through decent CD player and studio monitoring quality headphones
revealed ugly unpleasant distortions on the dynamic peaks of Lal Waterson's singing.

I would be fairly confident those distortions were not on the original Leader master tape,
but a product of amateurish digital transfer of suspect vinyl
[not forgetting the debacle of the bodged pressing for a large number of this LP].

Even serious pro audio technicians, using best available restoration software
would be hard pressed to repair and disguise that kind of distortion
for the commercial audiophile re-release LPs of this recording quality deserve..

It is not a job for well meaning hobbyists using home hi fi equipment.

Pro Vinyl ripping and manual de-clicking & remastering is a skilled craft.

Even some reputable commercial mastering studios may not have good enough equipment and expertise
to do the job to a high enough standard.

Obtaining the master tapes is of paramount concern.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,LeslieLomas
Date: 15 May 15 - 09:28 PM

Hagman, Thanks for your reply. I don't really know how the website works, or if there's some way to communicate directly without leaving my email address in public, which I prefer not to do. I didn't know if I'd be notified somehow if anyone replied to my comment, and I just happened to remember that I posted a query here so checked it out and saw your reply.I also can't find my original post. Anyway, any info you could share would be greatly appreciated, re. Muckram Wakes, or to let you know my email address. (I'm just a bit of an obsolete dinosaur, in case you can't tell.)


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Hagman
Date: 15 May 15 - 10:57 PM

LeslieLomas,

It's straight-forward to join, and free, and comforting. Talk to Joe - he da man.

Instructions here:

Be aware that our forum is Free.

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty.

While anonymous Guest postings are permitted at Mudcat, you will garner much more good will by using a consistent "handle".

Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public, you are making statements in public here. Unlike Facebook, we don't even pretend to offer privacy.

We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection.

For the time being, the membership transaction is human, manual, personal...

One of the great things about Mudcat over the years has been our ability to meet other Mudcatters around the world in person and visit their homes and such. For this to be safe for everyone, we gotta kinda put you through the wringer a bit. So...

To join this here site, you gotta talk to us. A very nice email should be sufficient. Contact Joe Offer, joe@mudcat.org

We're real and not hard to find. We'd like to feel the same about you.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,LeslieLomas
Date: 16 May 15 - 08:50 PM

Hagman -- Thanks for all the info. and the contact info for Joe. I guess I've gotta get used to this computer stuff one of these days. Meantime, it's been very interesting to see the conversation about the Leader/Trailer records, and to see that there are other folks interested in those old recordings. Thanks for your help.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Matthew
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 04:26 PM

After all this discussion, I'm still not clear on who retains the rights to the Leader catalogue. Does anyone here know for certain? Did Mr. Bulmer have descendants or business partners that would have inherited the rights?

Last I had read about this, probably well over a decade ago, Mr. Bulmer was claiming that he would only release the albums on CD when the initial runs of LPs sold out. --A bizarre notion, to be sure, since all of the LPs in question had been out of print for decades. Combined with his complete lack of interest in monetizing a catalogue for which he no doubt paid good money, I assumed that Mr. Bulmer was not in his right mind.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Matthew
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 04:29 PM

I should add that in 2005 the record label Honest Jon's released a compilation of material from the Leader label entitled "Never the Same." I had assumed that they were somehow able to negotiate a licensing arrangement with Mr. Bulmer, which makes the fact that the catalogue saw no further revivals even more mysterious!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 05:18 PM


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 05:25 PM

Dyslexic finger!!
Matthew. By what strange logic do you deduce that the copyright / ownership rights bought completely legally in a free market should not, when they die, go to a person's decendants or business partners?

Does the Honest Jon label still exist?
Have they publish any other similar material?
If not, why not?
Could it be that the material did not cover its production costs?
Lots of questions there for you and others to ponder.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 05:44 PM

I have long thought that Bulmer's only interest in Leader / Trailer was in the stock of unsold LPs.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Matthew R.
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 05:59 PM

A "GUEST" wrote:

"Matthew. By what strange logic do you deduce that the copyright / ownership rights bought completely legally in a free market should not, when they die, go to a person's decendants or business partners?"

Apparently you lack basic reading-comprehension skills, as is often the case with anonymous trolls. I deduced or implied no such thing. I merely inquired who, after Dave Bulmer's death, retained the rights to the catalogues he purchased. I am ignorant of that information.

Honest Jon's does exist.

The utterly uncalled-for condescension of your post merits no further response.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Thomas Stern
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 06:14 PM

NEVER THE SAME - Honest Jon's CD
1. Lal Waterson – Never The Same
2. Nic Jones – Anna Water
3. Dorothy Elliott – Adieu To Judges And Juries
4. Alistair Anderson – The Kid On the Mountain
5. Dick Gaughan – Jock O’Hazeldean
6. Dave Burland – The Bleacher Lassie O’ Kelvinhaugh
7. Aly Bain – Niel Gow’s Lament For His Second Wife
8. Lal Waterson – To Make You Say
9. Nic Jones – Annachie Gordon
10. The Boys Of The Lough – Caoineadh Eoghain Rua
11. Dave Burland – A Dalesman’s Litany
12. Tony Rose – Blackwaterside
13. Dick Gaughan – MacCrimmon’s Lament / Mistress Jamieson’s Favourite

still available.

Did any of the people who keep insisting SOMEONE should reissue
this material ever BUY this ???
Or the LP's which are offered on eBay and other sites ????

Thomas.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Matthew R.
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 06:16 PM

By the way, in recent years -- despite the downturn in the sales of music on physical media -- there have been hundreds if not thousands of reissues of remarkably obscure albums, some of which have done reasonably well. Labels such as Light in the Attic, Numero Group, Missisippi Records, and so forth have been in business a decade or more selling LPs and CDs of music that is much more obscure than that of Nic Jones or Dick Gaughan. The owners of these labels have been able to negotiate with the rights owners and make it worth their while to reissue the material. Certainly no one is getting rich in this market but it is nonetheless been proven to be a viable one.

In light of that, the continued insistence by some on this thread (often but not always cast in fairly abusive terms) that the Trailer catalogue plainly has no financial value -- and that /must/ be the reason by Bulmer never got around to exploiting it -- rings hollow. It's possible that nobody made an offer to Bulmer that he felt was fair. But to flatly assume that the market for a reissued Nic Jones LP is so vanishingly small as to make a reissue out of the question seems unwarranted to me. I suspect that will not stop people from repeating the assertion each time this thread is revived.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Matthew R.
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 06:20 PM

cross-post

I bought the Honest Jon's reissue when it was released in 2005.

As for LPs, I have bought many Trailer and Leader LPs on eBay, however in many cases they fetched very handy sums.

I was never made aware of Mr. Bulmer selling those LPs directly. Perhaps he did so back in the 1970s and 1980s. All of the Trailer/Leader LPs I've purchased in the past 20 years were used copies, being resold by individuals or stores. There was a brief moment when poor-quality CD copies of some Trailer albums were available, but these were mastered from vinyl copies and quickly went out of print (they too fetch high prices now).


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 08:29 PM

So where can one get the Honest Jon recording?

As compilations go it seems to be a cracker.

I will apologise (slightly) to Matthew in that I misinterpreted his query as being yet another dig at Dave Bulmer.

That came in the following posting.

As regards where the ownership lies there are enough clues in the various threads to indicate that Dave does indeed have a widow and children and business partners who (unless Dave willed the ownership to a dogs home or similar) will have inherited.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Matthew R.
Date: 03 Jun 15 - 11:24 PM

The "Never The Same" compilation can be had for fairly cheap, e.g.

http://www.amazon.com/Never-Same-Various-Artists/dp/B000BNWNW4/

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Same-Leave-taking-British-1970-1977/dp/B000BNWNW4/


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Jun 15 - 08:44 PM

So I checked it out and apart from one site offering a new item to be shipped from Japan at a price over and above what I would be prepared to pay and "only one in stock - order now", the rest were second hand items.

Further investigation revealed that the CD in question appears to be the only one by this outlet offering English folk.

So once more the question is - why?

It also gets one good and one dodgy review. You pays your money and you takes your chance!

With regards to any agreement with Celtic Music perhaps if it is so important to know it is open to whoever to ask the Honest Jon management.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 05 Jun 15 - 02:59 PM

£9.99 direct from the excellent and eclectic Honest Jon's. It's a corking album, and all above board in terms of licencing & legality.

http://honestjons.com/shop/preview/27428


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 04:16 AM

Just checked out Honest Johns website.

http://honestjons.com/shop/search/topic

There are now quite a few (many?) Topic re-releases on CDs listed there. Do a search for 'topic' Are these from the actual masters or dubbed from pristine LPs? If they are CDs then I guess some audio decompression has been used - so they would not have the same analogue 'clarity' as the LPs themselves. But at least the older folk material is out there. But then I guess Topic are also re-releasing there back-catalogue on CDs. Huh - maybe these are Topic CDs!!!!

Sadly a search for Trailer or Leader does not produce anything.

As an aside I have the boxed set of Bill Leader's Copper set 'A Song For Every Season.' They're in pristine and unplayed condition. However I would be happy for someone to digitise the LPs for re-release onto CDs so long as the Copper Family got their due royalties. Any thoughts on this?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 04:24 AM

Actually I am 'quizzy.' The Watersons and Coppers recorded on Trailer / Leader but some of their recordings are being re-issued on Topic. How on earth did Bulmer allow that?


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Reinhard
Date: 05 Oct 16 - 06:52 AM

Only Mike and Lal Waterson's Bright Phoebus was on the Trailer label. All other Watersons records were and are on Topic.


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 06 Oct 16 - 04:11 AM

And I have Bright Phoebus - largely unplayed!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: GUEST,Alistair
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 08:57 AM

Bright Phoebus now available again and with other tracks from the recording. Double LP for vinyl lovers...


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Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records
From: Reinhard
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 12:48 PM

See the thread   Bright Phoebus reissued


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