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Dave Bulmer-related enquiry

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sinpelo 19 Feb 06 - 02:57 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Feb 06 - 04:49 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Feb 06 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man 02 Sep 09 - 12:24 PM
John MacKenzie 02 Sep 09 - 12:50 PM
Folkiedave 03 Sep 09 - 06:06 AM
Bryn Pugh 03 Sep 09 - 06:16 AM
Folkiedave 03 Sep 09 - 07:16 AM
The Sandman 03 Sep 09 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man 03 Sep 09 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Max 29 Nov 09 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain 13 Jan 10 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain 13 Jan 10 - 06:01 PM
Tig 13 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 10 - 07:43 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Jan 10 - 04:46 AM
The Sandman 14 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Don Scott. 14 Jan 10 - 05:08 PM
Tig 14 Jan 10 - 08:26 PM
Jack Campin 15 Jan 10 - 08:26 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jan 10 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Don Scott. 15 Jan 10 - 05:26 PM
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caitlin rua 19 Oct 14 - 07:09 AM
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Musket 20 Oct 14 - 05:23 AM
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Subject: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: sinpelo
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 02:57 AM

Yeah yeah I know..... if one more person mentions Bulmer.....! Thank God people can't actually throw things at you on the Internet!

Can somebody point me to the original article on this hoo-hah? I've been trying to piece together bits of info by sorting through the threads but I'm getting on a bit and there are other things I want to do before I die!

I would be eternally grateful (well, perhaps not eternally but for several weeks at least).

Many thanks in anticipation.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:49 AM

Have a look at this , you will also find related threads listed at the top of the page that I have linked to.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:56 AM

Sorry, I suggest you start with this thread, and if you click Printer Friendly at the top of the page it will relist the posts in the correct order for you. There are many many posts on this, and the sequence is denoted by the number after the thread name in the related posts list at the top of the page.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:24 PM

Tomorrow (September 3rd 2009) in the High Court in London, there appears to be an action that can only really be our much observed Mr Bulmer? Anyone know what it could be about??

COURT 78
Before MASTER PRICE
Thursday 3rd September 2009

At 11 o'clock
Compass Records Group Inc v Bulmer


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:50 PM

Compass Records.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:06 AM

Andy - I couldn't find this. Where is it and can you keep us posted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:16 AM

Dave and Andy,

The Case will almost certainly be reported, being in the High Court.

I am not sure how long it will take, but you might think of contacting the Incorporated Society of Law Reporters (Google it)in about four weeks' time.

You will almost certainly have to pay for a transcript, and I should tell you that they don't come cheap.

Hope this helps. Regards, Bryn.

(PS it may well be in the Commercial Court).


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 07:16 AM

Thanks Bryn. I have one or two friends with an interest in Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 07:52 AM

Yes,I am interested in him too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:33 AM

To Dave: Much of the case will be able to be traced through various sections of the RCJ web site. Judgments will ultimately appear on the site and can be accessed FOC! I got the info about todays hearing by checking out the links after clicking on the following:http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/courthearings.htm
Let's hope that the man with right, and the law on his side, wins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Max
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 01:41 PM

Any more news Andy?   Whilst writing, anyone attending MIDEM 2010in Cannes during January, should be aware that Mr B will be attending and presumably representing his company LOYALWARE. Loyalware is listed in the Midem list of attendees as a "UK distribution company". Be careful, be very careful!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:57 PM

I got a call this morning from a person called "Dave" who seemingly wanted to help about the scam detailed at the bottom of a rough little website I put up in a hurry;

http://seanonuallain.com/id2.html


It turned out to be Dave Bulmer - only when I was on the phone did he reveal his surname. While talking to him I found this thread


Thanks to all here who posted and revealed certain details that have motivated me to tell him NEVER to phone again

On request, I will post the "scam" details


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:01 PM

Scam details posted; they go way beyond Bulmer, and there are strong indications of criminal conspiracy between British and Irish miscreants. B's sudden interest in this before the Feb 4, 2010, federal hearing is piquant. Sorry for the bad formatting

Sequence: 1. Late 1980's/ early '90's.Shay Hennessy is fired as head of
K-Tel Ireland. His
company Crashed Music Ltd is struck off, despite his prominence as Fianna
Fail appointee to many
State boards over 30 years to date. The Taxing master later pronounces a
judgement of 100,000 pounds
against him after his unsuccessful appeal to the EAT.

2. Early 1990's : Oliver Sweeney sets up CBM Ltd. and later its publishing
arm
Dog Music Ltd. He signs
a multitude of artists to CBM Ltd., including Sean Keane, Cran,Barry Ronan,
Draoichtand
      Melanie O'Reilly. Melanie does not sign a publishing deal, and signs
only heads
of agreement for one
CD recording, as Sweeney himself admits in writing.

3. Mid-1990's : Hennessy claims copyright on Melanie's
compositions at MCPS London through the trader name Crashed Music.
The Gardai are later sent a file of some of these spurious claims,
anonymously, though MCPS is
itself a possible source.

4. Dec. 1996: CBM Ltd is struck off just as a High Court case taken
against it by Sean Keane is
about to proceed. CBM Ltd. trades openly after dissolution, until 1998 at
least. Files are sent
to Dept. of Ent. Trade & Employment proving this. Paul Vickers, Harney's
secretary writes to
Melanie stating the precise documentation required for a prosecution. When
this is supplied, Dete
phones to say that prosecution of CBM Ltd and record services can take
place. Other companies are
also implicated. No prosecutions have occurred 6 years later.
Other complaints were lodged at that time concerning Dog and Ecellent Ltd.

5. Record Services Ltd. , struck off in 2000, continues to trade openly,
even after losing
lawsuits and after complaints to DETE. Paul Mc Guinness is listed as one of
the Directors.


6. IMRO gets the unambiguous right to collect for broadcast music in bars
and arts centres in
1996.

7. Hennessey becomes Chair of IMRO in 1997.

8. Musicians transferring their works to IMRO from the British PRS in the
1990's find
miscellaneous
publishers like Dog Music Ltd , Crashed Music Ltd. and Gael Linn Teoranta
illegally associated
with them.

9. Melanie O'Reilly finding the same illegal transfer of her copyright,
goes through the MCPS/PRS
Alliance duplicate claims procedure, a procedure accepted by IMRO.

10. Dog Music publishing Ltd. who claim Melanie's/Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill/David
Milligan's
works on Melanie's
album "Tir Na Mara", are written to: -C/O Crashed Music -their common
address. Neither reply and
copyright is returned to Melanie, Nuala, and David in 2001.
Dog Music publishing Ltd. Have already been dissolved
Mysteriously, Hennessy's illegal claims are done t/a Crashed Music, versus
using his company Crashed Ltd. However, only Crashed Ltd, which was
reinstated under the auspices of then Minister Bertie Ahern in 1992 is
registered to trade as Crashed Music.

11. Matheson Ormbsby Prentice, acting on behalf of IMRO, vociferously
deny Hennessey has any
beneficial interest in Melanie's works other than the slight amount
associated with Dog Music Ltd.
This is untrue, as proven later in written correspondence from MCPS.
MCPS do not pay Melanie at any stage until threat of legal action in 2006.

12. 2003: MCPS in correspondence with Melanie, mediated by the British
Musicians Union,
categorically state that contrary to MOPS repeated objections, Hennessey's
Crashed Music had
actually claimed Melanie's works. The 250,000 euros, or so , due to
Melanie for the illegal
licensing of her works as well as the 60,000 euros of legal fees and
considerable damages, are
therefore due to Melanie.

13. 2000: Melanie, along with other musicians, Maurice Lennon, and Donal
Lunny make detailed
statements to the Gardai about copyright fraud involving Dog Music, Crashed
and Gael Linn. Melanie
finds her compositions and recordings on 8 compilations for which she has
not given permission.
Sales figures indicate total units of at least one million.

14. Garda Mulvey is taken off the case, but Dail questions ensure a smooth
handover to Garda
Mooney. Mooney and Mulvey see preliminary evidence of massive fraud at IMRO,
with bogus song
titles being created, and attributed to musicians without their knowledge,
as well as the theft
already outlined.

15. 2001-2002: Mulvey and Mooney interview all parties concerned in Ireland
and Britain, and find
that all Melanie's, Donal's and Maurice's stories ring true. Mulvey himself
buys one of the
bootleg Cds in Ireland.
16. 1998: Hennessey signs a deal with Labhras O Murchu agreeing that IMRO
can issue a license
for Irish music. As much Irish music is not registered with IMRO, and much
else is public
domain, this is illegal.
While signing, O Murchu denies doing so in the Seanad (see
beyondthecommons.org). Around the same
time Hennessey is made a Peace commissioner

17. The Gardai submit a detailed 120 page file to the DPP who sits on it
for almost 2 years. In
mid 2003,
an article appears in the Sunday Independent saying that the DPP declines to
prosecute according
to
"sources close to the investigation". The Sunday Independent admits IMRO is
the source.

18. The Gardai, whose first knowledge of the DPP's decision is the Sunday
Independent, are
informed
of it officially 2 weeks later. The DPP, acting outside his remit,
recommends civil action against
Hennessey and Sweeney.
However, more evidence has since arrived for the DPP's consideration.

19. 2004: Mistletoe Music LLC is reliably informed that Hennessey, back on
the board of IMRO
after a short absence, is working with Gael-Linn, a former employer of
Oliver Sweeney.

20. 2004-2005: The Arts Council of Ireland criticises the IMRO -Murchu
deal. Una Bhean Murchu
resigns from the traditional committee chaired by Philip King,issues a
minority report from that
committee, and a wholesale campaign contra the Arts Council begins. Una's
Cashel "Bru Boru" centre
has been the major beneficiary of the IMRO deal.

21.Summer 2006; Melanie O'Reilly and Sean O Nuallain meet with Paul Appleby
for two hours, handing him numerous documents that got mislaid on their
passage from dete to him. Appleby promises High court action within two
months.

22.November 2006; Mistletoe music llc receives documents showing that
Hennessy's claim on Melanie's material antedated her legal claim. This is
in contradiction to what both MCPS and IMRO are contending, and MCPS is
reminded of this.

23Dec 2006; following a prolonged silence from Appleby, he confirms that
there is unlikely to be any prosecution after all.

24. Accounts finally arrive from MCPS, showing that, nearly 7 years after
the original complaint against them, both Dog and Excellent are still
trading as limited companies. 11 years after being recorded, Melanie's
compositions are still making 100 sterling or so a week.

25. June 2007; Melanie meets Minister Eamon Ryan, who agrees that her constitutional rights have been violated, and undertakes to contact Appleby

26. August 2007; Appleby writes to rescind his undertaking to proceed with High court action.
        



Jan 2008

Sean meets Preston Dufauchard, Californian commissioner of corporations, who complains about difficulties he is having with Irish companies trading in California. In particular, many are in fact dissolved; moreover, the notion of company reinstatement does not exist in Ca.

The complaints are taken to John Bruton, Eu ambassador to the US, initially at a public meeting in Berkeley. No action is taken



Feb 27 2008

1. Initial contract whereby the work of up to 50 Irish musicians was pirated is obtained
2. Appleby et al continue to refuse to act

February 2009

There has still been no enforcement of any of the relevant legislation. In the meantime, for similar reasons as for the failure of the Irish music industry, the Irish banking sector collapses.

May 2009

Through his British solicitors, Clinton, Hennessey sues the owner this site in an attempt to get the content removed. After consulting with our New york lawyer dealing with the case, who points out that truth is the best defense against libel, the site is left as is with only the letter from MCPS acknowledging the defeat of Hennessey's copyright claims added. Clintons are referred to our lawyer in Britain.

August- 2009 – Jan 2010

The complaint against Valley and St Clair proceeds at federal court in the US and is sent for mediation.

In the mediation, valley files a motion to dismiss on the grounds that Non-US copyrights are not valid in the US


No, I'm not kidding


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Tig
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM

OK, financially he may be a rogue, vagabond and total jerk who has taken advantage of friends, musicians and is refusing to let old stuff loose.

Privately he's a damn good musician and a really nice guy who more of you have probably met at festivals than you would know.

I know both sides of him - so don't say I don't know what I'm talking about!

If you actually have business with him you no doubt now know where to find him - but must we keep on bringing up his misdeeds on here? Stop using Mudcat for mud slinging. It's getting boring!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:43 PM

"OK, financially he may be a rogue, vagabond and total jerk.....Privately he's a damn good musician and a really nice guy"
Oh, that makes the way he has behaved ok then - does it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 04:46 AM

The long guest post above is rather confusing and in places clearly inspired by a failure to understand relevant legal concepts.

Some of the lawyers mentioned are fairly serious players and have a good idea of what they are doing. Anyone in Ireland wanting some legal muscle that could understand what is going on might want to check out a certain James Wolsey although he might be conflicted as he has previously acted for some Irish collecting societies and others highly placed in the Irish musical world. I doubt whether James comes cheap these days though.

It would be interesting to know who the English lawyers and New York lawyers referred to in the sentences "After consulting with our New York lawyer dealing with the case, who points out that truth is the best defense against libel, the site is left as is with only the letter from MCPS acknowledging the defeat of Hennessey's copyright claims added. Clintons are referred to our lawyer in Britain" are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM

as far as I am concerned his behaviour is unacceptable, and yes I have ben affected by him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Don Scott.
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:08 PM

A bit confusing, which of these companies is Dave Bulmer involved with?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Tig
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:26 PM

Don't know what happened there - repeat posting not as Guest.

I never said I agreed with Bulmer's behaviour - in fact I strongly disapprove of his business handling etc. However I do stand by the fact he's a great musician.

I was always lead to believe that there were far more Mudcat's in the world than were interested in him, or ever would be. To keep up bringing stuff like this isn't on. A quick flick through the relevant threads would soon provide the names of Catters who WERE interested/involved. Then you could pm each other and stop blackening him throughout the world. Some of his 'acts' were advised by his then legal eagles and were not of his starting.

I have been a Catter for a long time (10 years) but if it's sinking to this I may well be joining the increasing number of 'ex-cats'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:26 AM

Most Mudcatters aren't interested in folk clubs in South Derbyshire either. Are you suggesting we ban them too?

If you're not interested don't read the thread.

It would have been nice if the Irish scenario had been presented in a more comprehensible way. Richard Bridge could probably make sense of it all but most of it was lost on me (except to convey that some of Bulmer's confederates in Ireland are people with an even worse reputation than him).


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 10:59 AM

No it lost me in places too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Don Scott.
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:26 PM

Perhaps Guest Sean could enlighten us as to how Mr Bulmer is involved here, I know that several Irish artists have had very unpleasant dealings with his companies in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM

A chairde

First of all, the story is indeed VERY confusing, and I apologise again for the bad formatting which did not help

Clearing up a few matters; it relates to bulmer insofar as he contacted us, out of the blue, on Tuesday; 3 weeks before the first hearing in federal court in the USA, over 15 years after the saga began. I did not know who he was until I checked this site - luckily - while on the phone with him. He asked us for our friend Donal Lunny's address, and Donal is rater grateful that we did not oblige.

Secondly, I have indeed consulted with James Wolsey, but he cannot take action in the US, where most of the illegal sales occur.

Having apologised for the story's bad formatting, I should probably reassert the truth of every detail, and do so. As to its relevance, it will probably shock many to find that a blanket licence for the performance of "Irish" music (much of which is Scottish) was issued and accepted in Ireland (by a senator on the one side, and peace commissioner on the other); that it seems to be the case that MCPS in Streatham accepts utterly bogus composer "claims"; that IMRO was initially set up partly to protect these fake claims, and only the effective sacrifice of a whole generation of Irish musicians has prevented matters getting much worse

Best wishes

Sean


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 07:25 AM

Dave Bulmer threads are becoming boring. Can we have something about Ewan MacColl's war record please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

which dave bulmer are we talking about, the one in harrogate or the one in london?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:54 PM

Is there any news about the Dave Bulmer albums situation since his death which was a while ago now?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:18 PM

no


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:25 PM

Musical Traditions has reissued an augmented version of the Cecilia Costello LP on double CD, as Old Fashioned Songs. Musical Traditions MTCD 363-4.

I was hoping that would signal the the reissue of the entire Leader catalogue. That it hasn't happened is due to the fact that nearly everything else in that catalogue is still in copyright.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:48 PM

It's not very difficult or expensive to challenge a will in English law, is it?

Did some interested party try?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:57 PM

I'm not going to go into it, but it's a lot more complicated than challenging Dave Bulmer's will. In fact it would take an army of lawyers to sort out the copyright mess that surrounds the LPs of say, Charlie Wills, John Maguire, Billy Pigg, etc.

It's a crying shame, but at least I can take solace in the fact that I bought copies of practically all the Leader LPs when they were first issued, and before D..e B....r got his greasy little mitts on them.

Thank God he never had the chance to privatise the NHS.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Guest Betsy
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:22 PM

I understand that his wife is a very decent person - so let's hope that there may be an agreeable outcome for all those performers who have been severely affected by Dave's actions / business adventures. I knew Dave , busked with him in Amsterdam in the 70's along with another fine musician/singer who may not wish to be mentioned.
Naturally, at that time there was no inkling of the devastation that his that the heart break which his commercial actions & aspirations would eventually bring.
As many of us are fond of quoting "it will all turn out alright in the end" - lets hope it does !!
As for Fred (Previous Post), Dave couldn't match the nastiness, dirty , underhandedness , perverse behaviour and disregard for the working class of this British Nation of Jeremy Hunt with regard to the NHS.
Warwick Hunt - not Jeremy thinks me !!!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM

Betsy. I only met DB once, so I can't comment on whether he had his good points or not. In any event, that is irrelevant to the present discussion.

The accusation is that he bought an admittedly small, but nonetheless vitally important catalogue of traditional music and song from Britain, Ireland and the USA and sat on it for the rest of his life. As a result the vast majority has never been reissued.

Here's an incomplete listing of what we wuz robbed of.

England. Copper family, The. Leader LEAB 404
England. George Dunn. Leader. LEE 4042
USA. New North Carolina Ramblers. North Carolina Boys. Leader LEA 4040
USA. Virginia Reel. Leader LED 2053
England. Unto Brigg Fair: Joseph Taylor and other Lincolnshire Singers recorded in 1908 by Percy Grainger. Leader LEA 4050
England. Billy Pigg. Border Minstrel, The. Leader LEA 4006
England. Fine Hunting Day, A. Leader LEE 4056
England. Cecilia Costello. Recordings From the Sound Archives of the BBC Leader LEE 4054
England. Charlie Wills. Leader LEA 4041
Ireland. Coleman Country Traditional Society, The. Music from the Coleman Country. Leader LEA 2044
Ireland. Folk Ballads From Donegal and Derry. Leader LEA 4055
Ireland. John J Kimmel. Early Recordings of Irish Traditional Dance Music. Leader LED 2060
Ireland. Seamus Tansey with Eddie Corcoran. Leader LEA 2005
Scotland. Shetland Fiddlers. Leader LED 2052
England. Stephen Baldwin. English Village Fiddler. Leader LED 2068
Ireland. Eddie Butcher. Shamrock Rose and Thistle. Leader LED 2070
England. Walter Pardon. A Proper sort. Leader LED 2063
USA. Lonnie Austin-Norman Woodlief        Lonnie Austin & Norman Woodlief. Leader LEE 4045
USA        Various        Blue Ridge Mountain Field Trip. Leader LEA 4012
Canada        Various        Far Canadian Fields. Leader. LEE 4057
England. Jack Elliott of Birtley; The Songs and Stories of a Durham Miner. Leader LEA 4001
England. Walter Pardon. Our Side of the Baulk. Leader LED 2111
Ireland. Martin Byrnes. Leader LEA 2004
Ireland. Séamus Ennis. Leader LEA 2003
Ireland. John Maguire. Come Day, Go Day, God Send Sunday. Leader LEE 4062
England. People's Carol, A. Leader LEE 4065

For anyone who doesn't know the story, Leader Sound was forced out of business by the oil (and therefore vinyl) shortage of 1973, which means he achieved that astonishing list in just four years. I don't know of any other record company, including Folkways and Topic, who showed such splendid initiative as Leader Sound did.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 12:03 PM

So obtain the best vinyl and make CDs? Publish and be damned - this stuff needs to get back into the public domain.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 02:36 PM

SB. I've no idea who you are, or how much experience you have in these matters. However, there is a small problem of copyright law. Doing what you propose could land you in court, with a lot of copyright fees to pay, plus a lot of legal expenses.

Also, there is the question of protocol to be considered. I know that Bulmer's reputation isn't too good in most quarters. Even so, if you're seen to be issuing non PD recordings, without so much as a by your leave from his estate, you might find that no-one else in the folk record industry is willing to work with you.

Having said that, if there's anyone out there who can re-issue the stuff legally and legitimately, I'll be only too glad to give them all the help I can - as I did with Rod Stradling when he reissued the Cecilia Costello disc.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 06:51 PM

If anyone has pristine vinyl copies of the lost albums, keep them pristine. The original tapes may well have deteriorated beyond recall. Pristine vinyl owners may well be sitting on our heritage. Keep sitting for now!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 06:53 PM

Owners of pristine vinyl, I should say. The owners may be less than pristine...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 10:56 AM

Dave Bulmer was an awkward cuss at times but he was also a very fine musician and great supporter of traditional music.

He was also in the business of making a living which he did quite successfully without recourse to any of the more unethical tricks undertaken by others.

He also recognised the artistic value of the various businesses (all failing before he got involved) he bought out.

He once admitted to me that he never thought he would ever recoup his outlay and that he had, if the family wanted to eat, to make other strands of his business be the breadwinners so to speak.

He has had very little praise for the good things he did such as the various tune collections and his staunch support of traditional musicians.

He has now been dead for some time and I feel he should be left to rest in peace without all this constant tittle tattle which I am sure would upset Ruth if she bothered to read it.

There is no real financial value in the vast majority of stuff that Dave saved from the landfill despite what so called experts might think.

Let it be.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:15 AM

there's no real financial value

Maybe some people think it is valuable on another basis


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:18 AM

That's me just above.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

I've no need or right to stir things up.
But if there is no real financial value, why not make the positive gesture of goodwill
and legally return the rights [and any viable surviving tapes] back to the artists or their families,
or even some kind of neutral folk archive or promoting body...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

Malcolm, I do not think I ever met Dave Bulmer and therefore cannot argue with anything you say. However I do know several artists who do cannot get access to work they recorded back in the 70's early 80's and who would love to do so. (I don't wish to mention any names for fear of creating any backlash for them)

From a personal point of view many of my vinyl albums are, not to put too fine a point of it, knackered and if CD's were available I would happily buy them again.

If as you state there is little or no financial gain to be made from the material it would seem logical to release it back to the artists who are recorded.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM

Malcolm. There may be no financial value in the Leader catalogue worth speaking of. But there is a hell of a lot of artistic value.

For the rest of the 'tittle tattle' I can only repeat what I said above. IE., that I never knew the man and have no idea what he was like in other spheres. Therefore I have no desire to engage in a DB character assassination. But I do believe that the Leader catalogue should be made available once more to those people who recognise said artisitic value.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 09:13 PM

DMcG - I think I acknowledged the artistic value, as Dave did by putting his money etc.

Punkfolkrocker - the second part of your argument would only work if such a body or body of persons existed.
For the first part what obligation is there to buy something and then give it to a third party? I think people are picking on the wrong devil here.

Fred and Raggytash - you both know me personally and I am quite prepared to debate this with in private, with, perhaps a means to lay it to rest.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 04:10 AM

GUEST,Malcolm Storey said
> Punkfolkrocker - the second part of your argument would only work if such a body or body of persons existed.
For the first part what obligation is there to buy something and then give it to a third party? I think people are picking on the wrong devil here. <

DB bought the Leader tapes and their copyright for whatever seemed to him a good reason at the time. Whether that was wise or foolish, virtuous or wicked, an obligation or not, it is fait accompli. But there is now, in the opinion of many people, an ethical obligation on his heirs to do something positive with that material.

There are various organisations and individuals unconnected to the original performers that might be willing to take some or all of it, but that should only be as second choice to the performers or their heirs.

If DB's heirs consider it not worthwhile to publish it themselves, they should give it not to "a third party" but to the original first parties, the artists, or their heirs. Or they could even sell it back for a reasonable price. Sitting on the copyright and leaving the tapes to deteriorate does no-one any good, and is unethical because it does actual harm to those who are prevented from raising some cash from re-issued recordings.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 04:25 AM

DMcG - I think I acknowledged the artistic value, as Dave did by putting his money etc

Sort of. But you also said 'Let it be' because you believe it to have no financial value. But many here see the artistic value as sufficient grounds to oppose letting things go, whereas you appear to regard the financial aspect as the deciding factor.

We differ, that's all there is to say, really, so I don't expect to post further on this aspect, especially as people like Richard just above are making essentially the same point I was but rather better.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 05:28 AM

DMcG

It is the business man in me that sees the financial part as a deciding factor.

Throwing good money after bad was never a wise philosophy.

Richard

I would be intrigued to know who these organistations and individuals are that would be interested in the material. To do what?

I see no one out there waving a cheque book or even a debit card.

Dave bought the material because nobody else wanted it.

He also bought a set of urinals once - any offers for those?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 06:45 AM

> I would be intrigued to know who these organistations and individuals are that would be interested in the material.

Maybe Musical Traditions. Maybe the British Library Sound Archive. Maybe EFDSS. Maybe ITMA for the Irish recordings. Maybe someone in the USA.

> To do what?

To make some or all of these recordings generally available to whoever wants to listen to them, on CD or as digital downloads, possibly free, possibly at a reasonable price.

> I see no one out there waving a cheque book or even a debit card.

Not a lot of point when there appears to be nothing for sale.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 07:08 AM

Richard. Rod Stradling (Musical Traditions)looked into the question of copyright when he reissued the Cecilia Costello LP. At the time he seemed to feel that the ice was a bit too thin to take a chance on with the rest of the catalogue.

I haven't spoken to him on this topic for quite a while, so I've no idea whether there might have been further developments. Even so, I think that a project such as this would be too fraught with loopholes for one person to tackle.

Of the other names you mention, I can't see the NSA wanting to get involved. EFDSS might be a possibility, but I'd have thought an unlikely one unless and until the question of copyright ownership is entirely resolved. Ditto for ITMA. Plus there is an added problem if the latter were to issue only the Irish stuff, in that it would effectively break the collection up.

My feeling is that it's going to take a consortium of committed people to thoroughly investigate the copyright problem and to persuade the copyright holders to waive their rights in the name of artistic heritage (or whatever).

Sounds to me like this would make a useful topic for discussion at a future Tradsong Forum meeting.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: caitlin rua
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 07:09 AM

> There is no real financial value in the vast majority of stuff that Dave saved from the landfill

That's one person's opinion, not fact. So why not subject it to a reality test: Put it up for sale, publicly and widely-announced, and see what happens. If it makes any money at all, that indicates at least some financial value.

The other choice would be to release these artistic works in the marketplace; but if this couldn't recoup sufficient profit for the costs/work involved (a debatable topic: other outfits manage), then selling everything outright would at least earn back something.

Or are the royalty payments better than is generally being let on, worth just enough to keep the catalogue?

> It is the business man in me that sees the financial part as a deciding factor. Throwing good money after bad was never a wise philosophy.

How is selling the material throwing good money after bad?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 10:36 AM

Caitlin

That was Dave's opinion as well as mine and I felt he was trying to be altruistic but all the crap got on top of him and he was never one for suffering fools gladly.

The vinyl is and always was available via the catalogue as far as I am aware.

The reissueing of the material on CD would cost money and considering that the stuff never sold in the first place what makes people think things have changed?

So it might be possible to reissue one or two items a year and recoup the cost and so on ad infinitum.

Of course if there are pristine vinyl copies out there then that speaks volumes (no pun intended) in itself.

Richard

The chequebook comment related to interested parties willing to rescue the collection - if it needs resueing.

Fred, as usual, talks a fair bit of sense and his last two comments might point a way forward.

There are a lot of mights and maybes in there and not a business plan in sight.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 10:54 AM

"The reissueing of the material on CD would cost money"

Pro standard digital transfer for commercial, or even free dowload,
as CD quality [or even higher resolution] Wav or Flac files,
would incur considerably less cost..

This is now rapidly becoming the most popular 22st Century alternative to manufacturing & selling physical media....


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 11:07 AM

Malcolm. "The vinyl is and always was available via the catalogue as far as I am aware". I confess that's a new one on me. As I have virtually all the Leader catalogue anyway, there wouldn't have been much point in my investigating that line of enquiry. But to which catalogue are you referring? Dave Bulmer's own? If so there are presumably other Mudcatters who might wish to benefit.

"considering that the stuff never sold in the first place". Sad but true. Anybody who thinks there's a killing to be made out of this had better think again. However, consider the 100+ Cds which Musical Traditions has released, plus all the stuff which Veteran has churned out, plus how many volumes is it now of Topic's Voice of the People? That's without even mentioning companies like Greentrax, Clo Iar Chonnachta etc.

There may be no money in releasing CDs of traditional music. Nevertheless, there are people who clearly think the stuff is worth releasing, and there are other people who clearly think the stuff is worth buying.

So, to conclude and finish. Here's a job which is worth doing for aesthetic and/or ideological reasons, if not for the greenbacks. All I can add is that, having twice now persuaded Topic to release material which everyone else seemed to have forgotten about, plus having collaborated with Rod Stradling whenever he needed it, I can tell you there's a lot of back breaking and ball aching involved, and very little recognition or profit. But by God, the glow of satisfaction when you succeed in making it happen.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: caitlin rua
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 11:23 AM

The rights can always be sold, without re-issuing a thing. The worth or otherwise of this collection is still only a matter of opinion. Until it's put to the test.

The owner could simply flog it and get something out of it. Then it's somebody else's problem.

I don't think anyone believes it would be lucrative. But that's doesn't mean it's without value.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 11:44 AM

.. and whilst business and profit are real world considerations;
it's not entirely unknown or that unusual for families to generously donate
archives / collections / cultural artifacts / etc to the nation's galleries and museums.

If it were to ever be considered as a positive option by representatives of Mr Bulmer's estate,
surely there may already be appropriate responsible organizations
who would be very grateful for such a culturally 'valuable' gift ????

Legalities need not be an obstacle.

Just an idea in progress .. that's all... I don't mind being called naive...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 04:13 PM

GUEST,Fred McCormick 19 Oct 14 - 07:08 AM seems to have misunderstood my 19 Oct 14 - 06:45 AM posting. I wasn't meaning to suggest that any of those organisations would wish to get into a fight to obtain the recordings and the right to issue them. I was suggesting, in response to the query from GUEST,Malcolm Storey as to who would be interested in the material, that any or all of those organisations might well be interested if it were offered to them.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 05:12 PM

There is no point in talking in abstracts.

Have just watched Antiques Roadshow and nobody on there would sell the valuable or worthless old jug that Uncle Herbert left them.

Maybe Dave's family feel the same.

Suggest we leave it with Fred.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 06:22 PM

Whoever this Malcolm bloke is, you lot, stop pussyfooting around him. There are several albums that Bulmer put into touch that would have sold very well on CD. Any by Nic Jones, and what about Bright Phoebus, to name but a few. And let's not forget that there have been several tawdry attempts to release third-rate CD-Rs of the forbidden stuff over the years. I have no idea what the dead Bulmer's twisted motives were for hanging on to stuff, except that they were twisted. The sad truth is, probably, that he didn't look after the tapes, and they're totally shot by now. Some were allegedly used to prop up tables with wonky legs. As I said, anyone with pristine vinyl should hang on to it. You are sitting on what Bulmer did not realise: our bloody heritage, and stuff the "commercial" considerations! One fine day...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 06:54 PM

Thank you for the vote of confidence Steve - I can now go to bed and sleep untroubled by life's cares.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 07:17 PM

You do that - and do carry on defending the indefensible. Hope it makes you happy.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Jack Campin
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 07:38 PM

Unfortunately this seems to be the wrong Dave Bulmer:

findagrave.com record

Maybe somebody could submit a new entry?

I can see potential for T-shirts. Or maybe decals for uses like the flies in the glaze at Schiphol Airport.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 08:56 PM

I think I know who Malcolm Storey is - something to do with Whitby Folk Week in the past I believe.

Who the hell is Steve Shaw?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Musket
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 05:23 AM

More to the point, who is guest?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,graham_t
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 07:07 AM

Some practical problems that no-one really knows the answer to (as far as I am aware) -

Exactly how many tapes Dave Bulmer had
What condition they are in.

What their commercial value is (clearly this is related to the above)
I imagine that the cost of trying to catalogue all the tapes, and in particular assessing their condition and the possible costs of restoring them would be considerable. There is also the considerable problem of trying to establish who is entitled to whatroyalties from the individual tapes. Quite possibly the cost of doing all of this would be far more then their commercial value.

I can't see anyone agreeing to buy all or any of these tapes without this information as they might be buying something worthless.

I don't know what has happened to his business, but I thought it included this
http://www.musicbymail.co.uk/

which has had the same message on it for a very long time.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:07 AM

graham_t - all you ask has been debated to greater depth in more recent Dave Bulmer threads.

This one just seems to have been reopened arbitrarily at random.

Surely it is not too simplistic a notion
to consider that where there is a will there is a way
to minimise all the costs that might be involved........


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:31 AM

garham t. The condition of the master tapes isn't all that much of an issue here. If they have degenerated to the point where they have become unuseable (unlikely, I'd have thought), I have nearly all the Leader LPs. IE. the ones which showcased traditional musicians and singers, as distinct from revivalists who were released on the Trailer label. I have no interest in the latter.

The Leader LPs I have are all in good condition, and good remastered copies could be produced from them. The odd items I don't have could doubtless be furnished by other people.

Again, as I keep telling people, the commercial value of the catalogue is virtually zero. Nobody is going to make money from reissuing it. However, its cultural worth is in my opinion, beyond estimation.

The problem is that an enormous mess surrounds the question of copyright. IE., nobody seems to know who owns what. Therefore, the logical thing to do would be to contact all interested parties, which would presumably be Dave Bulmer's widow, Bill Leader and whoever now owns Bulmer's business, if such a person exists, and ask them to waive any rights they might have.

Regarding royalty payments, if I become involved in any attempt to reissue the catalogue, it will be on the clear understanding that royalty payments will be made to the performers, or to their descendants, or failing both of these to some suitable charitable cause; EG., it would be impossible to pay royalties to all the people who performed on 'A People's Carol' but the money could presumably still be put to good use.

Payment of royalties on the terms I've just set out is in fact a cardinal principle where Musical Traditions releases are concerned. Therefore if Rod Stradling can do it, so can anyone else.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 11:43 AM

.. just an idle thought...
could there be any tax offsetting incentives for Mr Bulmer's family / estate
if they were to make a kind & generous gift to the nation
of this culturally important collection..???


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 01:59 PM

you are going around in circles - yawn


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 07:25 PM

Who the hell is Steve Shaw?

I'll tell you if you like, Mr Murky-anonymous "Guest". I'm one of the most transparently-honest and open people on this board, a bloke who has posted on God knows how many forums over the years tens of thousands of times always under my real name. So who are you? If you won't tell us your name we could always make a suitable one up for you...

Yes we go round in circles. Another way of looking at it is that we won't let a serious injustice drop below the radar. We live in hope, tenuous though it may be, that some good will come out of this one day.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:05 PM

Thanks for being so informative Steve - so who are you?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:13 PM

Do your bloody homework. I have been here for quite a long time. Then tell us who you are. Have you got middle name like Jerome K Jerome? Guest K Guest? Now either tell us who you are (since you asked me who I was) or just belt up, bore.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 08:14 PM

a


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 05:19 AM

poplexic?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 05:24 AM

This is a serious topic, and for once there's a faint chance that it might bear fruit. Therefore, could the naysayers and the arguers and the anonymous guests butt out and leave the rest of us to discuss the matter amicably and constructively, and hopefully find a way forward?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 05:37 AM

HEAR, HEAR


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,John McNeill
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 08:43 AM

I hear vinyl sales have increased quite substantially after years in the doldrums, because people ( young ? ) want something materially and artistically satisfying for their money. This might have a bearing on future plans for the "product".
    I can't remember from whom, ten or so years ago, I bought a new vinyl "Noah's Ark Trap", but although it was at a higher than usual price, I was not unhappy to pay that for it. At the time I had just discovered Nic Jones and was unaware of any controversial matters. Was it unreasonable to charge over the odds a bit ? I really don't think so -
online bidding is quite acceptable nowadays.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 09:52 AM

...with fingers crossed for an optimistic amicable outcome....

But please let's not lose sight of the fact that it is still vitally important
to prioritise salvaging as many useable master tapes [and multitracks]
as posssible for optimum quality pro standard digital transfer purposes.

Vinyl transfer should only really be considered a last resort.

As I've emphasised on other 'Dave Bulmer' threads,
vinyl transfer is an art in itself requiring ideally mint copies
of the earliest pressed LPs from the original fresh stamping plates.

Pro mastering studios, and even internet blog 'pirate' vinyl rippers, use LP playback and digital encoding facilities
far superior to the average domestic Hi Fi record deck and USB audio interface.,
to squeeze every last subtle detail from the vinyl tracks...

Obviously cost would be a deciding factor, but at the same time much more is possible on low budgets
than many enthusiasts realise...

That CD I Purchased of "Bright Phoebus" from a Bulmer Amazon shop,
sounded ok on first impression,
but closer listening revealed horrible distortions on the dynamic peaks
of Lal Waterson's voice;
indicating serious deficiencies in the digital transfer,
perhaps either poor condition tape, or amateurish transfer from worn vinyl....???

These recordings deserve much better preservation & archiving.

I just want to get a chance to hear some of these recordings I've read so much about.

A well curated free download archive site would be a dream
[where are lottery grants when most needed..???]

It's so sad Ralph Jordan is no longer with us to advise.

[imho as an ex audio visual technician for a city museum and social history projects]


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 09:54 AM

Steve Shaw started throwing his teddy about when someone with knowledge of Dave Bulmer made a statement that Steve Shaw did not agree with when one or two people tried to explain the pedigree of the poster Steve Shaw again threw teddy. So back to original question Mr Shaw what is your pedigree to comment and who are you


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 11:22 AM


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: oggie
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 02:23 PM

From what I understand from someone who worked on the tapes some years ago, they are basically shot. In that case working from vinyl would seem to be the only choice.

The good news is that modern digital technology coupled with computing power means that very good results are possible.

Is there a market? For some of the historic recordings (Billy Pigg, Unto Brigg Fair) probably.

Nic Jones and a few others I'd say yes.

For the majority it might be a pick and mix approach, a sort of Voice of the People for the revival.

Also don't forget that Bulmer also bought up the rights to assorted other labels en route. I think that Bill Caddick's earliest records are caught in the same limd but I'm open to correction on that.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 02:50 PM

Dave Bulmer ran a successful niche market business and obtained the master tapes to what is believed to be some important work. It would seem silly in the business sense not to release the Vinyl on CD but when Dave Bulmer obtained it was it in good enough condition to use? Was he sold a pig in a poke in the first place? While everyone castigates him could there be other reasons why it was not released?
Keith


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 03:38 PM

Dave Bulmer bought the master tapes of NEW MEXBOROUGH CONCERTINA QUARTET FROM Richard Digance, in 1986, Digance never gave us the opportunity to buy them,Bulmer would not sell them to me either neither did he do anything with them.Those tapes were in perfect condition, please stop making excuses for Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 04:16 PM

Selby.

Dave Bulmer wasn't sold a pig in a poke. My memories, and I'm willing to stand corrected if I'm wrong, are that Leader was put out of business by the oil crisis of 1973. IE., he couldn't get any records pressed because you need oil to make vinyl.

At that time there was a considerable market for folk records,and one might have presumed that once the oil crisis had subsided, things would have returned to normal.

Thus, I assume, Bulmer bought the Leader and Trailer catalogues, intending to re-market at least part of Leader's output once it became profitable to do so. Alas, it never happened.

I went to live in Northern Ireland shortly after the said crisi and returned to find that the bottom had dropped out of folk records. Quite simply nobody was buying anything. Hence, the recordings have lain undisturbed and unissued ever since.

Oggie.

I do not know what sort of state the original masters are in. However, I find it hard to believe that DB, having shelled all that money out, wouldn't have taken good care of them. From his point of view, the market for folk records might have been dead, but who could tell what the future would hold.

In any event, as I've said before, the quality of the master tapes isn't that much of a problem. First of all Musical Traditions has already re-issued one of those recordings - the Cecilia Costello. Personally, I can't hear much wrong with the sound quality. So if that one could be salvaged, no doubt others can.

Secondly, I don't know whether all contributors to this thread are aware of it, but small record companies have been re-issuing pre-war 78s of blues, jazz, country, Cajun and various forms of ethnic music for decades now.

The process usually involves locating copies of the original 78s, transferring them to computer and then re-mastering the results. Not all said companies have been very scrupulous about the re-mastering stage, particularly in the early days. But where labels have done a proper job of restoring the sound, and I'm thinking particularly of Revenant, Frog, Old Hat and Dust-to-Digital, the results can be nothing short of remarkable.

So if they can do that from bunches of scratched and battered 78s, I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult to remove a few scuffs and clicks from a set of reasonably well preserved Leaders.

In fact, having said all that, I was some years ago involved in a project to reissue some 50 year old LPs of Ewan MacColl singing Child ballads. That was for Topic, and the re-issued material was taken from the original LPs. I can tell you, the difference between the sound quality of the LPs and that of the finished CDs was like the difference between night and day.

If you don't beieve me, go and buy a set.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 06:11 PM

So has anyone actually contacted the new owner of DB's business, or his widow, or his inheritors? Shouldn't this be the first step?

AND meanwhile the tapes are likely disintegrating ...

http://www.vox.com/2014/10/13/6840233/music-archiving-disappearance-history

Luckily the technology now exists to lift recordings from vinyl.

I advise everyone or anyone to join the 'Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List' at

They debate such issues and the archives are a goldmine of hints and tips and experiences about preserving audio recordings. The List is sponsored by the LOC in Washington. Many members are professional archivists with considerable experience at rescuing or restoring audio recordings.

CJB


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 06:14 PM

Huh - the email address for the ARSCList should have been

'Association for Recorded Sound Discussion List' at [ARSCLIST AT listserv DOT loc DOT gov]

CJB


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 08:23 PM

Steve Shaw started throwing his teddy about when someone with knowledge of Dave Bulmer made a statement that Steve Shaw did not agree with when one or two people tried to explain the pedigree of the poster Steve Shaw again threw teddy. So back to original question Mr Shaw what is your pedigree to comment and who are you?

And what pedigree would you like me to have? No, please do tell me? Would you like me to have been a Bulmer victim first or been his next-door neighbour before exercising my right to free speech? You are a charlatan, dear boy or girl, and you sound every bit like one of those occasional Bulmer lackeys that rear their unwelcome heads here and there every so often. Of course, you have a right to free speech, just like me. I choose to identify myself on every single occasion when I exercise that right. So how about you? As for not agreeing with someone "with knowledge of Bulmer" [sic], well here's what I didn't agree with:

He has had very little praise for the good things he did such as the various tune collections and his staunch support of traditional musicians...

...There is no real financial value in the vast majority of stuff that Dave saved from the landfill despite what so called experts might think.


The kind of "staunch support" that means depriving some of our best musicians the right to have some of their finest material released and promoted? Cor, with support like that who needs denigrators! No financial value? So how come that you know that just a short while after his death yet he didn't realise it for decades and give the bloody stuff back!

Tell you what, mate, at least my throwing my teddy around is childlike and honest, which is a damn sight more than can be said for your brand of sanctimony.

"With knowledge of Dave Bulmer"....Jesus.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 08:28 PM

And apologies to Fred and the others who have suggested that this could be a constructive and, just possibly, useful debate. I couldn't agree more. I've now lost my teddy overboard, I promise, and nanny has just tied the sides of my cot up.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 14 - 11:44 PM

I think his behaviour is unacceptable!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Selby
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 06:43 AM

I always thought the point of a discussion was to explore all avenues and potential outcomes. Yet when people place a different slant on the discussion, certain individuals take it upon themselves to start name calling and behave like children. This is an interesting discussion with possible outcomes already being raised yet the same people continue to try and shut the discussion down for their own agenda, when challenged will not substantiate their agenda or their knowledge of the issue. Shame as this thread has so much potential to gain insight and knowledge as to what may,has,can go wrong with old tapes and copy write.I am not an apologist but I as I have previously stated I can not understand why a successful business man did not latch onto the CD boom and make money there must be other reasons.
Keith


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 12:22 PM

With the Leader catalogue, essentially we are talking about a set of recordings of traditional musicians and singers which have little commercial value, but are of great interest culturally to researchers, academics, other folk singers and musicians – and of course to the small number of fans of these sorts of recordings. On a must basic level, it would be relatively easy to ensure copies of the vinyl are available in various sound archives and in libraries such as the RVW library – it probably wouldn't be illegal for these libraries to store such material as digital files or on CD for research and archival purposes. However, if the plan was to make them more widely available – either as free or paid for downloads or for on-line streaming, discussions would need to be had with the current rights holder – presumably Mrs Bulmer or another family member. It's up to the right holder whether they want to hold onto those rights, sell them, license them or give them away. What is clear is that the antagonistic approach taken by some in the folk world in the past to Mr Bulmer (however justified some people think it might have been) is not going to help to resolve the issue – all it can do is to lead to the situation becoming even more deeply entrenched.

In my mind there are several areas to consider.

1)Is there an organisation which would take custody of the recordings (if they are available/salvageable) and take responsibility for ownership/management of the rights to them, if the currents rights holder would be prepared to sell, licence or donate the rights/recordings?

2)Is there an individual or group of individuals (preferably with no axe to grind or history of conflict with Mr Bulmer) who could negotiate the terms on which the current rights holder would be prepared to make the rights available?

3)Is there an individual/group of individuals/organisation who would be prepared to raise funds to pay
a) for the rights (and the recordings if still available);
b) for the digital transfer and remastering;
c) for the admin time to upload the collection onto a suitable site for streaming and downloads (a platform like Bandcamp would probably be the cheapest and easiest way to do this);
d) for the writing of accompanying texts to go online to contextualise and annotate the recordings; and
e) for the promotional and publicity around the launch of the archive?

4)Is it possible to get on board sound engineers, studios, web designers and writers/researchers who would donate some of their time to the project free or at a reduced rate to keep costs down?

I'm sure there are plenty of other issues to consider. First and foremost this is about being able to put in the time and commitment, good planning and project management, getting the right people on board, fundraising and above all retaining focus and a level head…

The commercial releases on Trailer are a separate issue altogether.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 02:30 PM

I agree with all that. But surely we first need to know that the tapes are usable, or even whether they exist at all any more. The stony silence on this down the years has been deafening and it hardly augurs well.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 04:13 PM

For the traditional stuff on Leader, professionally transferring from the vinyl would probably be more than adequate, especially for the unnacompanied singing and single instrument recordings. Steve, but fair point.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 06:13 PM

I had intended to resist replying to Mr Shaw's diatribes but when he attacks me directly that is difficult to do.

First let me affirm that, yes I knew Dave quite well and I said in my first posting that he could be awkward at times - can't we all?

Secondly I referred to his support for TRADITIONAL musicians and I stick by that.

Thirdly why, having bought something, for whatever reason, and subsequently finding it of no value should you offer it to anyone but the seller?

Apart from the one-argument-fits-all Mr Shaw there is some useful stuff being raised.

For any movement on this it would need someone / some organisation to approach the family, who undoubtedly hold Dave's share of the copyright, in a proper manner to see if there is, indeed, a way forward. I fear the time for that may be long past following all the vitriole aimed at someone they loved.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 14 - 07:19 PM

Well, Malcolm, instead of being so patronising and sanctimonious, and as you know the family so well, why don't you do it? You sound like the ideal man! Unless, of course...

No, really. Why don't YOU do it??


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 02:11 AM

I don,t remember this thread asking for volunteers to sort Dave Bulmers estate out. What planet are you on Steve Shaw, oh yes planet Troll.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: oggie
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 04:39 AM

Just to correct something said earlier.

Trailer records were not forced out of business by the oil shortage of 1973. The last records were released in 1977.

Neither was the move to CDs the original cause. They came along in the early eighties.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:16 AM

If "troll" means disagreeing with anonymous "guests" then so be it. I wasn't asking Malcolm to volunteer, was I, more to piss or get off the pot really. He was the man who sarcastically asked if we wanted to bid for Bulmer's urinals, remember, a nice case of trying to obstruct the debate. Every Bulmer thread throws up people like that. You may also care to dwell for a second on the fact that you are an anonymous "guest" whereas I'm out here in the open, and consider which of us would be more likely to troll. To repeat, "to troll" does not mean "to disagree with you". Maybe you've been reading too many issues of the Daily Mail lately.

Now back to the question, eh? The point is that, somewhere, there are either tapes or there aren't any more. Even if the tapes are knackered, there are still rights and we know that good vinyl still exists. The silence on the tapes is deafening, which is not a good sign, but there's the vinyl, potentially a good second-best. Even Mr Bulmer's allies in this thread accept that they have little or no financial value. They are certainly not earning anyone any money at the moment. So if the family or friends of the family (including one or two people here who claim to be closer than the rest of us) read this thread, let's have a little gentle pressure in the right direction to now do the decent thing. If there's no money in it for the family now, there never will be, so just give the rights back to the artists. That might represent a financial loss but there's no prospect of that being turned around. It would cost more to get the recordings out in decent quality than any profit to be made, eh? So at least let the artists have free rein to do what they want to with their material. They won't make money either, but at least they would have the choice. And let's stop pretending that hanging on and saying nothing is the decent thing, eh?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:20 AM

That's me done in this thread.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 07:58 AM

I doubt that


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 08:31 AM

This discussion is just rehashing old ground unless his estate is willing to take a different attitude. I have never quite understood why he took the stance he did - if he didn't consider them to be worth releasing commercially then it would have made sense to negotiate with individual artists or others interested in the tapes to get whatever he could for them, but it appears he wasn't willing to do so.

He was not obliged to defend or explain himself, of course, but the consequence is that his reputation as a musician and publisher of some useful tunebooks has been completely overtaken by this matter. If his estate were now to take a different view it is possible that his reputation might at least in part be redeemed.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 09:00 AM

Maybe he thought that by creating and maintaining an artificial long term scarcity of supply,
eventually ebay auction prices for individual new old stock 'rare' LPs remaining in his warehouse
would be driven up substantially by over competative bidding by well off record collectors...???

Unlikely, risky ? but at least would make some kind of business sense...?????

who knows......


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 09:09 AM

Does Malcolm have some kind of personal issue with Billy Pigg, wanting to see his recordings lost in obscurity and being prepared to make a fool of himself spouting obviously insincere business-speak bullshit to justify his position?

I haven't heard Pigg's LP for years. I want to hear it again, and I don't want to listen to some faux-managerial arsehole getting in the way.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 04:01 PM

"and I don't want to listen to some faux-managerial arsehole getting in the way. "
So that means that you are going to make the estate an offer for the master tapes and associated rights

or are you just another one who prefers to rant on the net rather than do anything?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 04:29 PM

The still anonymous GUEST (unless of course it's a different GUEST: how would we ever know?) says "What planet are you on Steve Shaw, oh yes planet Troll."

There have been some posts in this thread that I would regard as trolling, but they're not Steve's. The worst that Steve has done is to respond to them, understandably, but nonetheless feeding the troll.

Any and all trolls: please crawl back under your bridges and let the rest of us get on with exploring how the recordings might be made available.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 06:05 PM

C'mon latest GUEST make an effort. All these guests are making a mockery of this site. It's very easy to join this forum.

Sheesh.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 23 Oct 14 - 06:15 PM

Oops! Bugger! 23 Oct 14 - 04:29 PM was me with missing cookie, rather spoiling the effect. Cookie now reset.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Rob Hardman ixer
Date: 26 Feb 15 - 11:59 AM

Have just learned of Bulmer' s death.
I know that Rosie would love to buy back her two albums.
We have always been glad that her third self financed album with Bill Leader was not released and that we kept the tapes.
It came out as The Lost Leader.
We tried to come to any sort of accommodation but like many others ...
Rosie is having a wonderful 70th birthday today and it would make it for her to have her two Leader albums back to release them.
She bought back her Plant Life albums with goodwill all round.
Rob


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Folkal Point Music.
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 04:55 PM

Hi - did Dave Bulmer acquire the rights to Midas Recordings from Alan Green, or, subsequent to his death, from his family?
I'm certain that there are other artists from the ' Alan Green record label stable ' that would need to know about their rights.
There are new ways to market recorded material - and unless some strict continuity is maintained, there is the potential that artists may be marginalised, to the point of being ignored - their legitimate rights being lost in the process.
The rights to Alan Green's record labels and catalogue are now being claimed by a third party - Lumi Entertainment Ltd.
Can anybody shed any light onto this set of circumstances and the position it leaves the original recording artists?
Please engage if you know something ............

Stuart - Folkal Point/ Midas Recordings - MR. 003.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Folkal Point Music.
Date: 10 Apr 15 - 05:07 PM

Who is Simon Jones?
Lumi Entertainment Ltd. have stated that they had bought everything outright from, Simon Jones in 2010.
By everything, they specified: Westwood/ Folk Heritage/ Midas Recordings.
Is this true, or not?
It is this company: Lumi Entertainment Ltd. that have made Alan Green's recordings available as a Pay To Download, without any regard to the original recording artists.
Help is required .........................
Stuart.


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Subject: bulmer
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 11 May 16 - 11:16 AM

Any news on the Bulmer situation yet?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 16 - 01:36 PM

no, not yet


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 12 May 16 - 05:07 AM

Looking down this old thread I was struck by this comment:

I imagine that the cost of trying to catalogue all the tapes, and in particular assessing their condition and the possible costs of restoring them would be considerable. There is also the considerable problem of trying to establish who is entitled to what royalties from the individual tapes. Quite possibly the cost of doing all of this would be far more then their commercial value.

Setting aside the issues of survival of the actual tapes I would make a big guess that the executors (who are probably not folkies) decided that the cost of establishing entitlement to royalties from the various recordings simply exceeded the cash value to the estate.

From an artistic point of view I find the idea distressing but I can see that it would make sense to a bean counter.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 May 16 - 12:48 AM

the whole issue is a stain upon the reputation of the folk world. i think he was greedy, His relatives who are in charge of the recordings appear to be similiar, there is no excuse for this, whether or not he was a good musician is irrelevant, his defenders do themselves no favours.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 16 - 04:01 AM

"His relatives who are in charge of the recordings appear to be similiar"

You have knowledge of how the estate was settled?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 May 16 - 04:33 AM

I'm with Dick. We can't know how people's minds work, but there was so much noise surrounding this for so many years and it looks from here like a extremely obdurate, hands clasped over ears attitude prevailed over that time, and maybe still does.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Thomas the rhymer
Date: 13 May 16 - 01:16 PM

Indeed it does.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,sam walsh
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:21 AM

According to MCPS Neil Sharpley is in charge of Celtic Music and any royalties due are paid to him.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 May 16 - 06:52 AM

Neil Sharpely 10:30 - 02 October 2003

A Former coroner and solicitor accused of deception offences has walked free from court after the charges against him were thrown out.

Neil Sharpley (52), who was once the coroner for Louth, was alleged to have obtained £47,000 from a client's estate and used it for his own purposes. He had been due to stand trial at Leicester Crown Court this week.

But the proceedings did not reach the stage of swearing in a jury to hear the case.

After three days of legal argument Judge Ian Collis ruled that Mr Sharpley could not receive a fair trial due to an "abuse of process" in bringing the case to court.

Abuse of process is deemed to have taken place when something is judged to be so unfair or wrong with the prosecution that the case cannot continue.

The individual facts of each case are considered when deciding if the method used to bring the case to court was unfair.

Mr Sharpley, of Westgate, Louth, had denied two offences of obtaining a money transfer by deception from his client John Lewis between February and June 1997.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Folkal Point Music.
Date: 16 Aug 16 - 02:34 PM

In addition to Lumi Ente/ Iceni who are still effectively selling Folkal Point as a Pay-To-Download commodity, another business Zeitgeist, is selling a CD reissue via Amazon - they are claiming copyright since 2015.
None of these businesses have ever consulted or contracted with us - we receive nothing from these people.
The Zeitgeist offering is absolutely awful - I've heard it - goodness only knows what they used as source material - just who are these people?
In an attempt to put clear water between the inferior quality of material being peddled by the aforementioned and ourselves, we have uploaded material via Hoxa Sound and CDBaby.
The difference is staggering.
We have also included a previously unreleased track, recorded during the same period, as a unique identifier.


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