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master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]

Related threads:
2013 Obit: Dave Bulmer (Age 62) (33)
Dave Bulmer (discussion) (114)
CM (Celtic Music, label) releases (10)
Bill Leader / Trailer Records (65)
Dave Bulmer-related enquiry (118)
Neil Sharpley Any News? - 2003 court trial (62) (closed)
Bill Leader/Dave Bulmer (245) (closed)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6) (169)
morality of collecting (282)
Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer (367) (closed)
Photo of Bulmer required (24)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) (88) (closed)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (4) (122) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3 (124) (closed)
'Celtic / Bulmer' aborted Part 3 (12) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2 (96) (closed)
The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed)


GUEST,punkfolkrocker 23 May 07 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M 30 May 07 - 11:39 AM
GUEST,buspassed 30 May 07 - 12:45 PM
The Sandman 31 May 07 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,N. Spencer 02 Jun 07 - 09:16 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 07 - 09:47 PM
treewind 03 Jun 07 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Sparkles 03 Jun 07 - 08:43 AM
GUEST,Nigel Spencer 03 Jun 07 - 12:28 PM
The Borchester Echo 03 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,N. Spencer 03 Jun 07 - 07:00 PM
The Borchester Echo 03 Jun 07 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Manny 04 Jun 07 - 12:12 PM
The Sandman 04 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM
Bonnie Shaljean 04 Jun 07 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Manny 04 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM
The Sandman 04 Jun 07 - 05:31 PM
The Sandman 05 Jun 07 - 02:41 AM
nutty 05 Jun 07 - 06:24 AM
The Borchester Echo 05 Jun 07 - 06:44 AM
nutty 05 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM
The Borchester Echo 05 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM
treewind 05 Jun 07 - 10:15 AM
nutty 05 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 05 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM
treewind 05 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 05 Jun 07 - 11:55 AM
The Borchester Echo 05 Jun 07 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbins (No not that one!!!) 05 Jun 07 - 03:03 PM
nutty 05 Jun 07 - 03:17 PM
The Borchester Echo 05 Jun 07 - 03:26 PM
The Borchester Echo 05 Jun 07 - 03:34 PM
nutty 05 Jun 07 - 03:51 PM
The Borchester Echo 05 Jun 07 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbins (No not that one!!!) 05 Jun 07 - 04:19 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no not that one!!!) 05 Jun 07 - 04:26 PM
The Borchester Echo 05 Jun 07 - 04:43 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 05 Jun 07 - 04:47 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no not that one!!) 05 Jun 07 - 05:36 PM
The Sandman 06 Jun 07 - 06:44 AM
M.Ted 06 Jun 07 - 11:38 AM
Folkiedave 06 Jun 07 - 12:15 PM
The Sandman 06 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 06 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM
The Borchester Echo 06 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM
The Sandman 06 Jun 07 - 03:47 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbibs (no, not that one!!!) 06 Jun 07 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!) 06 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 07 Jun 07 - 09:26 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 07 Jun 07 - 09:51 AM
The Borchester Echo 07 Jun 07 - 10:25 AM
GUEST,Sunny 08 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM
The Borchester Echo 08 Jun 07 - 08:58 AM
GUEST,Sunny 08 Jun 07 - 09:28 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM
The Borchester Echo 08 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM
The Borchester Echo 08 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM
The Borchester Echo 08 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM
treewind 08 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM
treewind 08 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM
The Borchester Echo 08 Jun 07 - 10:22 AM
treewind 08 Jun 07 - 10:24 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 07 - 10:27 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 07 - 10:35 AM
The Borchester Echo 08 Jun 07 - 10:55 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 07 - 11:04 AM
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WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM
The Sandman 08 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM
The Borchester Echo 08 Jun 07 - 01:38 PM
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The Borchester Echo 08 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Mr Gubbins(no not that one!!!) 08 Jun 07 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 08 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 08 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,john bayliss. 08 Jun 07 - 09:56 PM
The Borchester Echo 09 Jun 07 - 01:01 AM
Joe Offer 09 Jun 07 - 02:53 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 09 Jun 07 - 03:14 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 09 Jun 07 - 03:57 AM
The Sandman 09 Jun 07 - 05:17 AM
Big Mick 09 Jun 07 - 08:46 AM
The Borchester Echo 09 Jun 07 - 04:04 PM
Joe Offer 09 Jun 07 - 04:23 PM
GUEST,Mr. Gubbins (no, not that one!!!) 09 Jun 07 - 04:24 PM
The Borchester Echo 09 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM
The Borchester Echo 09 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Jun 07 - 06:41 PM
The Sandman 09 Jun 07 - 06:50 PM
Joe Offer 09 Jun 07 - 07:06 PM
Steve Shaw 09 Jun 07 - 07:19 PM
Joe Offer 09 Jun 07 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Mr Audiophile 09 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM
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GUEST,Ralphie 10 Jun 07 - 02:16 AM
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The Borchester Echo 10 Jun 07 - 03:09 AM
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Subject: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:52 AM

thought this might be a relevant point to branch off a new thread
from the Phoebus/Bulmer contraversy.......

I've been searching some links at 'Sound on Sound'
regarding master tape deterioration and preservation.

Articles I remember from the last few years..

also info re: recording contracts..


Maybe you and other mates here might find it interesting
if you have not already read any of it.






TAPE DECAY:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/fxcopyroom.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/may96/salvagearchives.html


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr06/articles/rogernichols_0406.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_articles/mar94/tapecare.html

CONTRACTS:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep00/articles/music.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/articles/contracts.htm



have fun reading.. or at least try not to despair too much...


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:39 AM

The number of threads, closed, aborted, and continuing show the general annoyance of the UK folk world to Bulmer (and Sharpley). It may well qualify for the Guinness Book Of Records - but what a crap record to hold!

Related threads:
master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer (359)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6) (136)
Photo of Bulmer required (24)
BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry (3)
Dave Bulmer - Address (39)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) (88) (closed)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (4) (122) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3 (124) (closed)
'Celtic / Bulmer' aborted Part 3 (12) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2 (96) (closed)
The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 30 May 07 - 12:45 PM

He might hold the record but will he release the CD?!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:39 PM

buspassed ,that was very funny.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,N. Spencer
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:16 PM

Not being someone who has contributed to this forum before, I'm a little puzzled that someone called 'Joe Offer' closed down a related thread because I mentioned that I was annoyed by the stuff a person calling himself 'Tyke' was saying. Is one not allowed to express their annoyance on Mudcat? It strikes me that some pretty nasty stuff was being said by the pro-bootlegging lobby, but expressing one's feelings about this - without resorting to abuse - results in censorship. What gives, Mr Offer? I'm sort of confused. Have I inadvertantly contravened a weird unspoken rule?

Best Wishes

Nigel
    No, the whole darn thread had been far too nasty for far too long. Your post was just the most recent example of people discussing their personal annoyance with other people instead of discussing the issue. The UK Mudcatters have a long history of being unable to discuss the Dave Bulmer issue in a civil manner. I allow the threads to go on until they reach a level of nastiness I can no longer tolerate, and then I shut them down.
    Sometime, it would be nice to have a rational discussion of the issue.
    -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:47 PM

Thread creep, but another related issue - do the artists get any royalties, or payment, when one track appears on a compilation album.

I note Rubber Band is on the Fairport "Loose Chippings ..." CD.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:10 AM

Nigel, it wasn't your post but the one that followed it and possibly others further up the thread, and the whole general tenor of the discussion that caused it to be closed.

Your posting was at least on-topic, restrained and not particularly an ad hominem attack, and clearly wasn't the reason why the thread was closed.

Joe Offer is, as far as I can tell, a senior member of a select group of people (sometimes called mud-elves) who are allowed to edit and delete Mudcat posts, mostly doing so to remove spam, of which there is a lot but it mostly gets zapped within minutes, but also to set some limits to debates that get out of hand with personal attacks.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Sparkles
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:43 AM

Nigel, I don't think Joe's comments were especially aimed at you. Members & regulars say far worse things to each other all the time so you weren't being any ruder than a lot of folks are. (And you used your real name, which not everyone does.) I think it was a final straw breaking the camel's back. Joe is normally very patient & polite but this whole subject has run on and on and on and he's probably just sick of it. It must really build up after spending hours weeding out spam & flames. Don't let it put you off Mudcat (or Joe) and come back & participate in some of the other threads.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:28 PM

Thanks for the comments above. I was going to forget Mudcat and stick to friendlier forums, but I may stick around for a while. Probably won't say much though!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

Trying to talk about CM/Bulmer on here is never going to be 'friendly' as there are those with long agendas but who neither know nor care what it's like on the ground. Is Joe Offer 'sick of it'? I think we should be told. However 'sick' he might be, it can't be anything like how sick the artists so affected are.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,N. Spencer
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:00 PM

Fair point about the friendliness on this subject and the rationale for the lack of it, Diane.

I still think downloads are the way to go if poverty is part of the reason given for sitting on all this music. It's cheap to do, it gets it out there for people like me to buy and it makes money for the artists and for the owners of the recordings. A genuine 'no losers' situation, in fact.

I suspect on some level I'm being naieve here though. I can't be the first person to suggest this solution...

Nigel


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:14 PM

Downloads?

Y-E-E-E-S.

I think you need to address your idea to Planet Bulmer for which there is, unfortunately, no known email address.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Manny
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:12 PM

DE
He bought them they are his property to do with what he wishes, get over it. Why dont you take Mr E out for a meal (if there is one God bless him) in the sun and relax you wont change anything eapecially with your attitude.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

MANNY,Youareright legally he can do what he wants,but we are talking about morals if you dont believe in morals,youare amoralpossiblyimmoral.
therest of your statement to Diane Easby is uncalled for ,patronising,irrelevant and flaming the situation,something that is against Mudcat rules.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:02 PM

"His property to do with what he wishes" is exactly the problem. He's dropping them down a black hole, and worse, so why should the affected artists and their fans "get over it" when they're being adversely affected?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Manny
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM

Captain, I believe in morals but this is about his property, and he can do what he likes with HIS property, exactly the same as you can do with YOUR property. And she/he is the biggest flamer and patroniser on Mudcat so please dont accuse me of that

How do you all know that by releasing the music it will sell, heresay, research wishful thinking?

If you are that enthusiastic you could all offer to fund the release of the music.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:31 PM

Manny in this particular case you are the flamer.
property can be about morals too,People can own property,if they own that property and leave it empty for years and years[Centre Point in london]they are behaving without morals ,because they are contributing to the homeless situation.It is their property, they have a legal right to do what they want with it,but they are still acting without moral consideration.
that is also my assessment of Celtic Music[though their treatment of Mick Tems gives us hope].
Whether Diane is or is not the biggest flamer on mudcat, does not give you the right to flame.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:41 AM

Here is another Hypothetical example.The trustees of Cecil Sharp house are persuaded to sell to a buyer the building and the library,there is no indication that the buyer is not going to allow members of the public access to the library,the buyer has a legal right to do what he wants with his property,but since society [the public are adversely affected]he/she is behaving without moral consideration.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:24 AM

Unfortunately but factually, the real fault lies with the artists who so naively passed on their copyright to others.

Unfortunately and legally there is no going back.

Sadly, life is not like a pantomime where the good guys always win and the bad guys always get their fingers burnt.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:44 AM

(1) The artists signed a contract standard at the time which didn't (as now) contain a clause by which rights reverted to them if the company was wound up. Bill Leader was a friend. What's naive? They just weren't clairvoyant.

(2) There could quite easily be a 'going back', sans a drama of Bleak House proportions All it would take is for someone at CM to come out of hiding and talk.

Yes, I very often feel like barbecuing Bulmer apologists but don't. No need, I have plenty of facts. Their problem if it brings down their house of cards. Makes you wonder why they built it.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

But you are all just going round in circles Diane. It's all talk and no action.

Why are you and others like you not calling Bulmer's bluff and re-releasing the material?
The vinyls are out there (I have many in my collection) and could be easily converted to CD with todays technology.

Given the personal situation of some artists, it would be very interesting to bring a test case to court.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

Because as things stand, he is the only one with the legal right to do this.
What you are suggesting is piracy.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:15 AM

Ahem!!!
Are you volunteering, nutty?
Getting on the wrong side of the law is hardly the way to tackle this.

As for test cases - there are some legal proceedings going on anyway. The outcome will be very interesting, but as it's all going on behind closed doors there's very little to be said now, short of uninformed speculation.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM

I'm pleased to hear that something is happening given that this problem has been under discussion since 2001.

However, interestingly, I came across a Celtic music track (one of those under discussion) in a recently released folk compilation CD.
Was this with or without Mr Bulmer's permission I wonder?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

Is that a hint Ralphie?
A.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:55 AM

Woops.
Hit return too early!
Nutty, a small correction.
This situation has indeed only been discussed openly since 2001 (app).
But the whole sorry saga goes back to the early 1980s. Before Fora like Mudcat actually existed.
Whether Anahata is correct, I know not, but if there is an attempt at justice going on, I wish the participants great luck.
They will certainly need it.
As for the odd CM owned track popping up every now and then, Yes, it is puzzling, I'm sure that a couple of Dransfield tracks on the Free Reed "Now and Then" compilation of a couple of years ago were from the first 2 LPs on Leader.
Not sure how Neil Wayne managed that particular deal.
Ah well, one day we will all find out.
Ralph


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:13 PM

Several tracks from Rout Of The Blues and Lord Of All I Behold were reproduced on Free Reed's Up To Now Dransfields retrospective (1997), made available 'by generous permission of Dave Bulmer, Neil Sharpley and the CMD Leader-Trailer Archive'.

a recently released folk compilation CD

Honest Jon's?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (No not that one!!!)
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:03 PM

"Some of the real jewels in this package are the inclusion of two tracks from each of the Dransfields' ground-breaking first two LPs on Bill Leader's Trailer label, recorded back in 1970 & 1971. These recordings have been thankfully conserved, along with many other of the most important recordings of Britain's early Folk Revival, in Dave Bulmer & Neil Sharpley's Leader Archives, and thanks to Dave and Neil, these tracks from 'Lord of all I Behold' and 'Rout of the Blues' are at last seeing light of day some 15 years after their untimely deletion."

http://www.free-reed.co.uk/frdcd18


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:17 PM

A recently released folk compilation CD

SEE HERE

Guess which track I have been referring to --- Track 8 perhaps??


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:26 PM

And just a year or two later, lo and behold, Rout Of The Blues made a sneaky reappearance on CD-R. Not that Barry Dransfield knew a thing about it until someone showed him a copy. Neither he nor Robin had been consulted about such a project. CM pays him no royalties, natch. Next thing he knew was a tiny cheque from the PRS for airplay. 'Wow, enough for a Chinese takeaway', he said. 'Sure makes up for all those years of unavailability'.

I have never actually seen this CD-R on sale at a retail outlet so have missed the opportunity of buying it then smashing it in front of the manager's eyes. But if I ever do, I will.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:34 PM

Re Ms Nutty's post:

Union Square is, as far as I know, a reputable company specialising in re-releases of 60s/70s material. I hope they are because I've bought some.

This compilation includes a lot of heavyweights and it would be relatively simple to check whether rights have been properly leased (e.g. a phone call to Neil Wayne re Dransfield).

Good luck if you are turning to sleuthing.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:51 PM

The leaflet that comes with the CD states .....

"All tracks licensed courtesy of Sanctuary Records Group Ltd"


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:02 PM

Sanctuary is the UK's largest independent record company, incorporating labels like Rough Trade and Trojan. So it would be a little surprising if they are doing anything really dodgy.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (No not that one!!!)
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:19 PM


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no not that one!!!)
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:26 PM

this problem seems to be going round in ever decreasing circles, not to mention 12 threads, seven of which have been shut down. Is there any answer, I mean apart from 'piracy' and or boycott of product?
We can look to the future to prevent further occurences such as this, but the past is far more problematical


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:43 PM

Union Square

Meant, obviously, to write Market Square.

Clearly an alcohol deficiency and it's time I went to the pub.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:47 PM

Ever decreasing circles.....indeed.
There is no quick solution to this problem.
We all just keep carrying on.
I'm sure that Sanctuary are blameless, (along with many other companies).
In fact, nobody of repute goes anywhere near Celtic Music at all.
One day, it will be resolved.
Maybe, I'll be alive to see it. Sadly, lots of others have already shuffled off this mortal coil.
May they sleep peacefully.
Regards Ralph


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no not that one!!)
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:36 PM

"May they sleep peacefully"

I still remember hearing Lal Waterson's voice for the very first time,it was stunning in the extreme, and it riles me to no end, that she got done out of what was rightfully hers. I sincerly hope that, even for just her sake, some will be done, hopefully in our life times.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:44 AM

Manny, I have no intention of getting over it,as I am someone who has been adversely affected by Celtic Music,if I was able to issue a cd of my lps[particuarly Cheating The Tide .I would have more to sell on my website.I am sure if you were in my position you would feel the same way.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:38 AM

I suggest you all get use to this bit of boilerplate--"These recordings have been thankfully conserved, along with many other of the most important recordings of Britain's early Folk Revival, in Dave Bulmer & Neil Sharpley's Leader Archives".

If it's any consolation, Mr. Miles, your currently unavailable recordings have bought you a place in history. We should all be so lucky.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:15 PM

Actually we don't know that they have been conserved!!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

m ted,none of us knows about buying a place in history.whatwill people remember in 200 years time[unlikely to be Celtic music catalogue]
I would prefer to be remembered for what I have done,but frankly I am not concerned with a place in history,I am more concerned with getting my creative work back,and into the public domain.
as Folkie Dave says we know nothing about whether they have been conserved.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM

"getting my creative work back,and into the public domain."

Capt. - I'm not sure you meant it that way, but "public domain" in the legal sense means that everyone owns the rights and can release recordings without compensation. In television and film, many older productions have gone beyone the copyright period and the rights were never, or could not, be renewed. This enables anyone to release copies of it. If you look at some of the old Laurel and Hardy films, you will find multiple companies releasing copies of the same feature - each with different quality depending on their source.

Has anyone explored the possibility that some of the copyright laws might have expired and the rights for these recordings could be up for grabs?

I also know that many artists have re-recorded their original recordings just for the reasons you mentioned.   Obviously that can't be done for some of the recordings in question, but is that an option in your case?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM

Has anyone explored the possibility that some of the copyright laws might have expired and the rights for these recordings could be up for grabs.

They haven't expired.

European sound recordings are currently only protected by copyright for 50 years but by contrast, the work of authors, songwriters and composers (i.e. the song rather than the recording), is protected for 70 years after their death.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:47 PM

those recordings can never be reproduced exactly as they were,some of the solo material,perhaps.
Ron,yes of course, I meant available for me to sell to the public


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbibs (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:49 PM

the new thread "COllecting,and Ethics (moderated)" is beginning to sound familiar already......


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM

Oh dear I just remembered, I'm guilty of owning one CD put out by Celtic Music. It's The Wild Side Of Town by The Albion Band and Chris Baines. Celtic Music CM / CMC / CMCD 042. LP, cassette, CD, UK, 1987.
Wonder if they got any money...?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:26 AM

Captain - I understand that you could not reproduced the original exactly, but perhaps a "revised" version is something worth considering.    To my way of thinking, a song is something that is living and can always be tinkered with - not necessarily improved but looked at from a different perspective.    By creating a new work, it also makes the product that Bulmer is holding less valuable to him - in the eyes of most people - "new" is perceived as "better", and while that is not necessarily true, it makes his hold on the product less valuable.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:51 AM

Hi Ron,
In the plethora of writings on this subject you might have missed the fact that in the year before he sadly died, Tony Rose did exactly that. Re-recording a lot of his finest material on a CD called "Barebones", out of frustration that his own original performances where unavailable.
I find that a very poignant thought.
Hope you can find a copy somewhere, well worth a listen.

Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 10:25 AM

Bare Bones (1999) on his own Boneshaker label includes several tracks re-recorded from Tony Roses's final Trailer LP Poor Fellows.

I am fortunate enough to have all his work including the three previous Trailer recordings, Young Hunting (1970), Under The Greenwood Tree (1971) and Banks Of The Green Willow (1976). But Tony Rose can't re-record these. He died in 2002.

Mollie Music stocks Bare Bones and will supply by mail order.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Sunny
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 08:49 AM

Why waste time talking about something over which you have no control or rights over. I agree with WFDU go and record the music again it will be new and fresh. You obviously believe there is a market hence you can not loose money so everyone will gain.

Spend your time and energy re-recording but I would caution you to do your homework/research and ensure you will definately have some sales to at least cover your costs.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 08:58 AM

As I wrote in the post immediately above yours, Sunny, Tony Rose cannot re-record any more of his work as it is now five years since he died. His daughter is working on issuing a CD of live recordings from sessions and concerts.

Nor can Lal Waterson who died almost 10 years ago, nor Peter Bellamy whose death was almost 20 years ago. For these artists it's far too late.

It is not, in any case, just about 'making money'.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Sunny
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:28 AM

DE I am aware and appreciate the above mentioned artists have unfortunately passed away which is a great shame. But as you say Tony Rose daughter is doing soemthing about the current situation which is to be applauded.

Their are many other artists out there who can re-record their work if they so wish. This as I said is putting there energy to far better use than talking about it on here getting no where. The discussion on here is not achieveing anything other than letting off steam. I can not see many artists contributing to the thread either so my guess is they realise it is a lost cause other than to re-record because the originals are not their property. They have moved on.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

In a sense, we are talking about copies here.   The original recordings, although out of print in many cases, have not been destroyed.    While I would love to have re-mastered CD copies, the originals are not gone forever - just harder to find.

Here in the U.S., there are hundreds of vinyl LP's from the 50's through the 80's that are long out of print. The masters may be missing, or the rights are tied up by corporations. It would be wonderful to have access to everything, and in many cases the issues that have been mentioned about UK artists would apply to US artists as well. I know several artists who recorded albums for Folkways that do not make a penny when the Smithsonian sells a copy from their catalog.   A few years ago I spoke to the son of a now deceased folksinger who also would have benefited from access to the recordings his father made. Unfortunately, the legal issues prevented the family from touching them.

On a good note, I received word that the re-release of the old Traditions Record label will continue, through a new record label. Last year saw the release of several classic recordings - from artists such as A.L. Loyd, Ewan MacColl, Ed McCurdy, Jean Ritchie and others.   I understand that even in those cases, the rights were signed away when the original recordings were made, but the record label has attempted to offer some compensation to the original artists.

By the way, this new record label also owns the rights to the old Esoteric label, and if successful perhaps we will finally see more of these classic recordings re-issued.   Based on the previous reissues with the other company, they did a fine job of remastering to preserve the originals, and they kept the artwork, liner notes and some updates to make a very nice and affordable package.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:54 AM

Sunny:

In innumerable threads passim (and not just here) for 10 years and at after-gig whinge fests for the past 20, many an artist has had a great deal to say and I do not know personally of any who think it is a 'lost cause'. You do them a great disservice by saying casually that they should just abandon their life's work as though it lacked artistic value and importance.

I repeat: it's not just the money.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

Here's a Usenet discussion centred around a Guardian piece of exactly 10 years ago.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

For Guardian read Observer.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:06 AM

Sunny, both you and Ron are (at least about this matter) ill-informed, to give a generous interpretation of what's otherwise breathtakingly crass and smug "advice".
Apart from the deceased artists Diane mentioned, try making that suggestion to Nic Jones, preferably face to face in front of his family and friends.

Artists like Pete Coe, who are still alive and fit to play and who have previous albums locked in the grip of CM, have recorded masses of new stuff over the years since the CM buyout happened, and are still playing and singing. They are working their asses off, clearly know more about the folk music business that you do, and hardly need "caution" about "homework/research" and how to run their busy lives. But it doesn't stop them from being rightly pissed off about a large chunk of back catalogue from which they can derive no benefit, and all for no good reason.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:08 AM

ps there have been several more messages added while I was composing that. I was referring to Sunny's earlier post.

A.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:11 AM

Anahata, I think you and Diane are not understanding what I am saying. I do not think for an instance that anyone should give up and I would hope that Nic Jones recordings will eventually be released to him.    What I am saying is that you need to understand that this is not a unique occurance, and as you mention "homework/research" - I agree. There is precedent that needs to be understood in order to resolve this.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:22 AM

Precedent? What precedent?
CM has relented on rights issues in the cases of some artists but not others.
Rosemary Hardman and Mick Tems spring instantly to mind.
Yet in other instances, applications to purchase them back have been turned down flat.
Where's the sense?
It's not a matter of understanding 'precedent' but the realms of psychiatry.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:24 AM

Ron: Yes, I've seen your later message and take your point that similar things are happening in the USA.

I wonder how much of a market there is for the inaccessible material from the 50-80's that you refer to, and how much of it is work by living artists who would benefit if they were re-issued and sold now?

Did the artists who recorded with Folkways signed away their rights too? What happened there, with the Smithsonian now selling those recordings?

The position with CM/Leader may be slightly different because the artists DO have rights to the the royalties, but there are none being generated because there are no sales.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:27 AM

When I mentioned "precendent", I was meant issues such as the ones i mentioned - I am not trying to justify it, just pointing out that it presents an obstacle that needs to be overcome. IF CM has ammo, you need to have more ammo to fight back.

Do you know why CM relented in some cases? Is it purely arbitrary?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:35 AM

I imagine the market here in the U.S. would be minimal, probably similar to the UK in most cases, but it would be nice for an artist to have their own recordings to sell from their website or at concerts.

Many of the artists are still performing, or it could help their families - or even other artists. My understanding of the Folkways situation is that Moses Asch made "agreements" with the original artists and he owned the rights.   When the material was transferred to the Smithsonian, the rights also transferred. I could be wrong, and if someone could correct me please do, but I don't think they are paying royalities unless specified in contracts. I do know of one artist who has an LP on Folkways and she is making (illegally it seems) copies of her own recording to sell at her shows. She was not a "name" performer, so my guess is that the Smithsonian Folkways sales are minimal at best - I believe they only release this particular recording as a CD-R.

That is interesting to hear that the artists would have rights to royalites from CM recordings. As you point out, that appears to be different from the situations that I mentioned. Honestly, I had not heard that - or misread it if it was mentioned in one of the other threads. Does that pose a "legal loophole" that could be pursued?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 10:55 AM

Performing royalties are collected centrally by the PRS and distributed to artists direct in respect of airplay and performance returns.

Receipt of cheques in respect of this are usually the first an artist knows of the release of a CD-R of their previously hidden work. I have mentioned this, many times, in previous threads.

CM could not withhold these royalties even if they wanted to.

Mechanicals are an entirely different matter.

A producer proposing to issue (or re-issue) a recording is supposed to obtain a licence from the MCPS and an above-board pressing plant will insist on this before doing the run. Thus the artist will receive royalties according to retail sales.

If the release is on CD-R there is clearly no check on sales, though a producer ought in theory, make annual returns to the MCPS. Who checks?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:04 AM

Thanks Diane. Very similar to the U.S. There are performance rights, supposedly paid by ASCAP, BMI, etc. for everytime a song is played on the radio.   Certain radio stations pay annual fees for performance rights to play songs, instead of "per spin" payments.

The problem in the U.S. is that unless you are Madonna, the artist has to fight for their money.   It is a sad situation all over.

In theory, wouldn't Nic be paid royalty fees for whatever songs of his are played on the radio? If the recent Topic recordign receives enough airplay, would that offset the potential royalties from the CM recordings?   Would a campaign for more airplay of the recordigns that are available help in the UK?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:39 AM

Would a campaign for more airplay of the recordigns that are available help in the UK?

Well, yes but I don't suppose you will be surprised to know that Unearthed/In Search Of/Penguin Eggs don't feature on max rotation lists. Nor does Game Set Match, though, yes, Nic Jones will get 50% (I believe) of the PRS fee because the BBC pays a blanket annual levy to the PRS.

A clip of a track from Penguin Eggs (Planxty Davis) is played weekly on Mike Harding's show while he reads out the Top 10, and that's about it. And he has been known to play the CD-Rs and been roundly criticised for it.

But just how can you compensate for over two decades of lost royalties on sales?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

"But just how can you compensate for over two decades of lost royalties on sales? "

That is a big problem, it is impossible to accurately say what those sales would have been.

I don't know if they have anything similar in the UK, but here in the U.S. the folk-DJ community has their own listserv. If there is an issue, such as playing CD-R's, that could be brought to a community of peers, perhaps there would be less chance of this continuing.

From what I gather, you have campaigned in the folk publications and here on Mudcat. Perhaps an organized demonstration at the BBC Folk Awards, or at major festivals, might bring more pressure?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:18 PM

Diane ,could that be the reason, celtic music are not keen on cds but prefer cdr,s.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:38 PM

Ron

Many with more clout that I have fought this fight longer and harder than I have.
And I'm not exactly holding my breath for an invite to the Folk Awards.
Smooth Ops and I are scarcely Best Friends.


Dick

I couldn't possibly comment.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:40 PM

Who is "Smooth Ops"?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

Smooth Ops

Independent company to whom the BBC outsource the production of dumbed-down, f*lk-tinged Cambridge fodder and extremely unfunny comedy.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins(no not that one!!!)
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 03:26 PM

"But just how can you compensate for over two decades of lost royalties on sales?"

Unless you know someone with a whole hell of alot of money...you can't.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 05:27 PM

I'm rapidly beginning to think that nobody reads what is written here.

Mr O says

"In theory, wouldn't Nic be paid royalty fees for whatever songs of his are played on the radio? If the recent Topic recordign receives enough airplay, would that offset the potential royalties from the CM recordings?   Would a campaign for more airplay of the recordigns that are available help in the UK?"

Ron. (with great respect)

I know just how much that Topic paid to Nic to have his knee replaced last year (and living in the US, you would have to agree that is not an insubstantial amount of dosh, not having a state health service in your country).

And that was an advance for "Game,Set,Match",
(without the MD of Topic having heard a note)
Topic have been around for a while, and although successful, are not yet millionaires, and are slightly loathe to throw what little money they have around.
And yet, they were prepared to stump up the cash, because they believed in the project.
Topics belief was born out with a lifetime achievement for Nic (with new knee!) at the BBC Folk awards. complete with standing ovation.
I rest my case on that one.

Sunny

With the greatest respect. Dead or crippled people cannot re-record their work.

Others can record their own versions if they so wish. (Mary Black, Kate Rusby, et al)

Nothing wrong with that. quite like some versions of these songs, actually.

I myself have covered other artists material (with complete agreement with the artists, and PRS deals done with their companies, monies duly delivered)

I could never cover any Nic J arrangement, all the cash would go to Bulmer, and Nic would not get a penny.

Before Game, Set, Match was released, an injunction was served on Topic records by an acolyte of Mr Bulmer.

Topics reaction......GO ON THEN...SUE US!!

CMs rejoinder.....nothing.

Record released, critical acclaim, standing ovation, big sales.

Imagine if all the lost LPs of Nic could be rested from the grasp of the Knaresborough Mafia.

Thank you chaps in the US, but this is very personal to us in the UK.
These people, alive or dead are very important to us. please show some respect. And, we will do the same for you guys. I'm sure that there are huge and not dissimilar circumstances happening over there.
After all, little people get kicked by big people all over the world.

Nothing changes, It all stays the same.
(c John Tams)


Ralphie











I


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 07:32 PM

Ralphie (also with great respect) - I am reading what has been posted here.   Diane mentioned a performance royalty fee, which if I understood her post, is different from a royalty fee paid for CD sales. Topic would have nothing to do with payment for radio play.   

I'm not sure why you are admonishing me about what Topic paid Nic, as it seems to have nothing to do with the performance fees that Diane was talking about.   Did I misunderstand?


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Subject: sick note, why paddy's not at work, esti
From: GUEST,john bayliss.
Date: 08 Jun 07 - 09:56 PM

This song that many here on Mudcat have become bored with has according to MCPS in England sold in different formats, The Dubliners, Clancy Brothers, Foster and Allen, Ray Stevens, The Irish Rovers, Brendan Grace, and many others,Has sold more than 30 million copies worldwide, the song is recorded somehere in the world nearly every week.
Publisher, CELTIC MUSIC, DAVE BULMER, WRITER, PAT COOKSEY, Celtic Music, ie, Bulmer and Sharpley have taken every penny generated from this song.
Regardless of the catalogue Bulmer owms, this song is his biggest income, collected by Meil Sharpley, Louth, Lincolshire.
Needless to say Cooksey, the composer of the song gets nothing, English folk music is indeed sinking to new depths, to tolerate this behavior.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 01:01 AM

Apparently you do misunderstand, Ron, but it's very difficult to see how or why.

An advance may be paid prior to the release or even the making of a recording. The fact that the sum paid to Nic Jones in respect of Game Set Match (different archive recordings of which CM does not own the rights, was sufficient to repair his knee should be an indication of just how much faith a small independent company had in the project. This has, subsequently, been amply borne out by a Lifetime Achievement Award and (relatively) massive sales. This has surely vindicated Topic's determination in the face of both threatened legal action from CM and crass, ill-informed, pomposity about 'lost causes' from those operating their own screwed up agendas.

MCPS/PRS royalty fees (or lack thereof) are an entirely different area which I explained at length because you said you didn't understand how they worked in the UK. The important aspect of these is that, as a result of CM owning the publishing rights and failing to release the recordings, artists of been deprived of potential income for over two decades.

As a related side issue, I notice that a thread about Pat Cooksey's The Sick Note, thought to generate a considerable portion of CM's income, has been zapped after just one post. I wonder why.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 02:53 AM

The John Bayliss "Sick Note" thread was closed because we have no need for yet another "Sick Note" thread or yet another Bulmer thread. I moved the message into this thread. The 15 existing "Sick Note" threads are here (click).
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:14 AM

Hi Ron.

I think earnings from Radio play is a bit of a red herring.
I don't know about the set up over in the States, but, here in the UK, there are very few programmes. Mike Harding (1 hour per week), Andy Kershaw (1 and a half hours per week), and Late Junction (3/4 hours a week, but only occasional folk is featured).
Thats national BBC Radio, Local radio has some valiant attempts to fight a rearguard action against the much cheaper phone in style of programmes. And long may that continue. (Some of them are available on the "Listen Again" facility on the Beebs website).

Most working artists over here, in my experience, buy a stock of CDs from whatever company they recorded with, and are then free to sell them at gigs, thus supplementing the sometimes meagre fees they get for performing.

In fact there is a loose arrangement between several artists, here in the UK, whereby thay swap CDs, and open up a sort of mini-shop at gigs, selling several different artists.

So, for instance. I'm doing a gig, box of records on the door, and I can say, if you like me, you might like these other artists too. check 'em out!!

This is fine for performing artists.
But, what about incapacitated ones (and the dead)?

It all comes down then to who owns the publishing rights.
Obviously, the artist concerned cannot perform, and sell CDs, so, if they don't own the publishing rights (Yes, Yes...they should have known better, but who did when they were 20)

If your equivalent of Beethovens 5th is recorded by Bob Dylan or Paul Simon (Why did those two names pop into my head??) then you get diddly squat.

So, the publishing rights are the real issue. Broadcast PRS rights are nice, but if you can't perform.........

Hope that makes sense Ron. Would love to discuss this further over a beer one day. You sound like an all right guy.

And I meant the Kind Regards bit!!!

Ralphie

PS. This is probably why the Pat Cooksey "Sick Note" saga has gone suspiciously quiet. There is a lot of money involved in that one. Good luck Pat, if you read this!!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 03:57 AM

Message to Joe.

I can quite understand why this whole CM/Pat Cooksey/Nic Jones controversy is bemusing to all your US readers. Sorry, but it is actually very important to a lot of artists over here in the UK.
The very fact that you have closed so many threads on these subjects, seems to suggest that you're getting a bit fed up with it all.
I would just like to thank you for allowing these discussions to take place at all.
I know that I'm fallible, but, I do try to be civil in my posts.
(fail miserably sometimes!!)
You're the ones in charge, but, I thank you for your indulgence..
I'm sure you would be interested in how this whole sad and sorry saga pans out.

Thanks Ralphie


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 05:17 AM

yes, thankyou for your patience, Joe.
it is also of interest to people in the Republic of Ireland,not just myself,there are other musicians here in Ireland, who I believe have been affected by Celtic Music.DickMiles


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:46 AM

Ralphie, there is no need to thank us for patience. This is a very interesting discussion to us in the States as well. There is just no need to have several threads going on what is, substantially, the same subject. Also, when a subject has been covered a number of times, as in the case w/ "The Sick Note", we will refer folks back to a previous thread.

Mick


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:04 PM

I fail to see why transatlantic members of the Cat need to be thanked for being 'patient'.
The issue of ownership of publishing rights isn't at all difficult to comprehend.
In the case of Pat Cooksey, his composition The Sick Note is making money for the owner of those rights, though not for him.
But in the case of those whose music remains in the Harrogate vaults, no-one is making money.
More importantly, no-one has access to it.
These scenarios are not at all 'substantially the same' at all, other than that the same person is responsible for each.
Personally, I care not about the owner but I do care about the artists and their music.
What's hard to understand?
People have died and more will sooner or later.
Yet you whinge about things 'not being that simple'.
They are.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:23 PM

I don't know if it's a matter of patience. I really would like to see a rational discussion, and every thread we've had on this Bulmer affair seems to end in chaos. I see lots of speculation and lots of anger, but very little in the way of facts.
Diana, you seem to adhere to the philosophy that if you throw enough words and enough animosity into a discussion, you win. There may be some merit to that. Eventually, all the rational people leave, and the survivors have their cherished illusion of victory.
Sad, isn't it?

I hope Dick Greenhaus has some success in achieving rational discussion in his moderated thread.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr. Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:24 PM

I would warrant that the owner in question does not care one hoot about the debate his actions have engendered either, yet the debates rage ever on.
now that's simple.....


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 04:42 PM

Exactly, Mr Gubbins.
And not just him.

Winners, Joe Offer? Who is winning?
Who is being rational?
What's rational about sick and dead people?
What's rational about debating for ever what's been stolen from them?
Throughout this thread I've been ever so polite and explanatory.
I've stopped.
I'm angry in the face of patronising stupidity that you're trying to disguise as 'rationality'.
It's not. Try (if you can) 'humanity'.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 05:08 PM

Oh, and the 'moderated' thread (which I think is about collecting and not publishing rights) is going absolutely swimmingly with people complaining that Kenny Goldstein didn't buy them shampoo as he did me.

(Actually, it was that stuff that smells of chestnuts, but who else around here cares about accuracy?)


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:41 PM

Ralphie, thank you so much for your clear explanation. Diane's original was a bit misleading, but I also appreciate Diane clearing this up. I am very interested in this story because it does have similar ramifications here in the U.S.

Now that Ralphie has given a clear explantion, it does become very clear to understand how things work in the U.K. There are similar setups here in the U.S..    There are payments for radio airplay, payments for CD sales, and payments for publishing rights. All three are separate issues.   

From what I understand, at least in current day usage, the publishing rights are usually not tied in with the original recording as it seems to have been the case with this Bulmer issue. I guess we have learned from issues like this.

It is very good to see that Topic gave Nic Jones such a generous (and well deserved) advance on the CD. I am guessing they might not make their investment back, but it is good to hear of a record label with a heart.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 06:50 PM

It is important that this matter,is kept in the forefront of peoples minds,anyone that can attempt to serve topic with an injunction,to prevent Nic Jones from producing a cd,has behaved without moral consideration,.
Humanity is more important,than anything else,.,More important than legal niceties,it is what is supposed to seperate us from the animal kingdom.
if we all adopt the Thatcherite mentality of looking after number one regardless of that effect on society,I am afraid civilisations days are numbered.
Joe Offer,there are alot of very angry people right throughout and to the top of the uk folk scene,,they are very angry about The behaviour of Celtic music.
Iam very pleased that the right thing has been done for MickTems,but this is a drop inthe ocean, as D Easby pointed out his[Celtic M] biggest money maker must be the Sick Note.,
Some men rob you with a shotgun others with a fountain pen,but i,ve never seen an outlaw turn a poor man from his home.
embezzlement is something that lawyers get struck off for, even lawyers have moral codes.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:06 PM

Oh, I have no doubt about the existence of the anger - and I tend to think that it is justified. However, angry people who can't express anything but anger, end up sounding foolish - whether their cause is worthy or not.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 07:19 PM

I don't want to hear re-recorded versions of wonderful original albums. I want to hear the originals, on CD with the best quality sound that can be applied to them. I want to know that the artist is getting his/her proper recompense.   But above all I want my heritage back. So I want to hear, on CD, Ballads and Songs, Noah's Ark Trap and all the rest in glorious 21st Century sound.   Quite a simple request really.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:00 PM

OK, so that's part of the argument. You want to hear music you grew up with. I feel the same thing about many of the old Elektra folk albums that aren't available just now. They're not being released on CD as quickly as I'd like to see them. I suppose somebody is waiting to release these albums when they think they can make money on them. I have to wait, stuck with only some 5,000 CD's in my collection.
What's the difference between Elektra and Bulmer?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Audiophile
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 08:06 PM

well.. ermmm..

Elektra may have carefully conservered the origional
multi-track and master tapes,
so that, eventually, it might still be possible
to listen to their CD releases in best available source quality
Hi Fi audio.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Jun 07 - 11:29 PM

Ralph said: I'm rapidly beginning to think that nobody reads what is written here.

At 06.44 on 5 June I wrote: The artists signed a contract standard at the time which didn't (as now) contain a clause by which publishing rights reverted to them if the company was wound up

and a while later, in response to an idiotic challenge to call CM's bluff to release the material: Because as things stand, he is the only one with the legal right to do this. What you are suggesting is piracy. I then clarified the difference between recording and publishing copyright.

At 10.55 on 8 June I wrote: Performing royalties are collected centrally by the PRS and distributed to artists direct in respect of airplay and performance returns. Receipt of cheques in respect of this are usually the first an artist knows of the release of a CD-R of their previously hidden work. I have mentioned this, many times, in previous threads. CM could not withhold these royalties even if they wanted to. Mechanicals are an entirely different matter. A producer proposing to issue (or re-issue) a recording is supposed to obtain a licence from the MCPS and an above-board pressing plant will insist on this before doing the run. Thus the artist will receive royalties according to retail sales. If the release is on CD-R there is clearly no check on sales, though a producer ought in theory, make annual returns to the MCPS. That covers performance and sales.

Seems perfectly clear to me. What's misleading? It's the bleedin' obvious, actually. I wrote all that without a shred of anger for those who can't be arsed to look up a few simple facts themselves, without which they remain in the dark over this issue and spout rubbish.

Ralph went on to explain the Topic advance which vindicated the viability of re-release and how the publishing rights are the main money earner, two different but very important aspects which complete the picture (if you've been following so far).

Clearly not. What we get now is a trivialisation of the Leader/Trailer catalogue and a fatuous comparison with Elektra who can do just one thing better than anybody else: compression.

Still angry. Very.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:16 AM

Hi Joe.

I admit to knowing very little about the Elektra label, or the company, so, could you tell me more.

1. Is Elektra still in existence as a label? If not, and has ceased to be (as Monty Python might put it!), do you know who bought them out?
2. Are the artists who recorded on Elektra still around today? (hopefully so), and if they are, would they like to see their early work available?
3. Would these artists wish to buy back all the rights to the original recordings, including publishing, etc, etc, with a view to putting them out themslves, even if it would make little commercial sense? (for old times sake)
4. If so, would the present owners of the Elektra catalogue be willing to discuss a deal with said artists to both sides mutual satisfaction?

I've said it before, but it bears repeating.
After the demise of Dingles records here in the UK, I was contacted by the ex MD of the company, and after a bit of a chat, managed to buy back the rights to my first recording. (Master tapes, Multitrack, All legal rights etc, etc).

The LP was recorded in 1980,I bought the stuff about ten years ago, and as yet, haven't done anything with them (complete tardiness on my part, I'm afraid!!)

The point being, that at least I could if I wanted to, and out of common human decency, if it became a million seller (I wish!!), I would be only too happy to include Roger (Dingles supremo) in a cut of the profits for believing in the band at the outset, and paying the initial recording costs. (I don't think he's holding his breath!!!!)

In other words, an amicable agreement was made.
Could the Elektra artists acheive this if they wanted too?

As far as the Bulmer saga is concerned, there are quite a few artists over here in the UK, who would be only too happy to pay hard cash for their early works, but negotiation....zilch.

The fact that all of these threads have been resurfacing over the years, is to let Mr Bulmer know that he hasn't been forgotten.

The (in his case) unwanted publicity, has at least prevented him from putting out anymore short runs of CDs which benefit the artists not one jot.

I hope this posting doesn't sound too angry.
(oh, and Joe, I'd really like to know about the Elektra story)

Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:27 AM

Hi Ron.
I've no idea if Topic have recouped the advance to Nic for Game, Set, Match.
But knowing Tony Engle quite well, I'm pretty sure he doesn't care one way or the other!!
Play it lots on your radio show, increase interest in Nic in the US, boost sales through CAMSCO (or whoever).
And maybe TOPIC will get its money back.
After all, it was TOPIC who believed in the "Songs of the People" 24 CD set. Hardly going to get to the top of the charts, but a worthy, and fascinating project true to the companies original very left wing beliefs.
More power to them.
Kind !!! Regards
Ralphie
Must have that beer sometime!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:42 AM

Elektra is nowadays part of the Warner Group.
Re-releases of, for example, Incredible String Band material is the worst, technically, that I have ever heard, quite on a par with a CM CD-R.
Nowhere on the packaging does it mention remastering so I assume they didn't bother with such niceties.
Having just received a lengthy email from Joe Boyd about the Syd Barrett tribute, I think I'll ask him what consultation, if any, took place.
All tracks are licensed by GEMA, it says.

(Playing Wistman's Wood so marginally less angry).


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 02:50 AM

Topic was founded originally by the Workers' Music Association and its director before Tony Engle till his death in the mid 70s was Gerry Sharp, a powerful mentor both musically and in the Hampstead Communist Party.

Just in case anybody wanted to know where I get it all from.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:00 AM

Sometimes, the best thing you can say in response is

100!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:09 AM

I'll take that to mean you know no more about Elektra than I do and care nothing about Topic (where Bill Leader was a sound engineer after running Collets and before setting up his own company).


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:18 AM

Joe
Bugger
Didn't realise 100 was getting imminent!
R


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Subject: Elektra Records Reissues
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 03:33 AM

All the major labels in the U.S. had folk musicians in the 50's and 60's, but I think Elektra may have had the most significant collection of commercial folk recordings - as opposed to the more traditional music on the Folkways label, which really didn't make much money. This Elektra Discography (click) covers the period when the legendary Jac Holzman ran the label, from 1950 to about mid-1973. The Wikipedia entry on Elektra is worthwhile reading.

The Judy Collins Elektra recordings were reissued by Warner Brothers early on, but most of the folk catalog was left in the vaults. Within the last five years, some of the Elektra albums have been released on the Collectors' Choice label, and some on the Warner Brothers Rhino and Rhino Handmade labels. The Rhino Handmade reissues have been very nice productions, including a 37-cut CD by Jean Ritchie, 28 cuts from Ed McCurdy called When Dalliance Was in Flower and maidens lost their heads, and a nice collection of Yiddish songs by Theodore Bikel - all beautifully packaged and annotated, with quality remastering.

But still, there's lots of Elektra that hasn't been reissued. It's disappointing - but I'm not all that sure it's unfair. Now, I will say that there is no question about the Warner Brothers ownership of these Elektra recordings. Apparently there is a question about the legitimacy of Dave Bulmer's ownership of the recordings he's holding on to - but I don't really understand that issue, and it has been clouded by an inundation of verbiage here at Mudcat.

And Diane is right that many of the early Elektra reissues had terrible mastering - they sounded like they have been mastered onto a cassette deck from an LP, and then put on CD. The more recent ones range from very good (Collectors' Choice) to extraordinary (Rhino Handmade).

Now there's one Elektra recording I'd really love to have - the one by Sandy Paton - but Sandy doesn't like that album and hopes it never again sees the light of day. I begged Sandy, but begging doesn't work with him. Now, if anybody should happen to want to send a bootleg copy my way....

-Joe-

I'm very familiar with Topic, Diane, and very pleased with the Topic reissues I've bought, especially with the 20-CD Voice of the People series, the Watersons box set, and The Acoustic Folk Box. My database says I have 35 Topic recordings, but that's counting Voice of the People as one recording.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 04:08 AM

Joe.
Greatful thanks for the links....you bugger!!!LOL!
Blimey, have got a lot of catching up to do.
Ah Well, nothing else to do today!
Ralph


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 08:35 PM

ME: I don't want to hear re-recorded versions of wonderful original albums. I want to hear the originals, on CD with the best quality sound that can be applied to them. I want to know that the artist is getting his/her proper recompense.   But above all I want my heritage back.

JOE: OK, so that's part of the argument. You want to hear music you grew up with.

I didn't grow up with it. My greatest love is traditional Irish music but I didn't hear anything by Planxty until 1990 when I was 40. I didn't hear Nic Jones until the re-release of Penguin Eggs in the 90s - I bought the CD after reading a Colin Irwin review in Folk Roots as it was then. I now have all the recent Nic Jones live recordings and I have a crappy old pirated cassette (from ancient vinyl albums, not Bulmer CD-Rs!) of Ballads and Songs and Noah's Ark Trap. There must be hundreds of people like me who didn't grow up with it but who now realise that this is our heritage. It is incredibly precious, and for someone to sit on it and deprive us all from possessing it is no less wrong than would be the closing down of Stonehenge or a mighty cathedral. That, and the refusal to allow Nic Jones to make at least a bit of a living from his wonderful work, is what this is all about.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 08:50 PM

Steve, that is the best post on the subject so far.

All the best,

Mick


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Jun 07 - 11:22 PM

" There must be hundreds of people like me who didn't grow up with it but who now realise that this is our heritage. "

You have your heritage, you just need to search a little harder for it.   Ebay, used record shops, auctions, etc.   The LP's were not destroyed, they are just out of print. There are hundreds of recordings, books and movies that I would love to see again that just aren't available.

Sure, it would be fantastic to have pristine CD's available (if the master tapes really exist), but the "heritage" arguement won't get much support.

Bulmer appears to be a first class prick based on the reports I'm hearing, but you aren't going to see the recordings without help.

Why has Bulmer chosen to release some material and not others? Is he asking too much for Jones? Does he have an ax to grind? I know everyone wants to dismiss this story, but there has to be a reason why he is witholding this if the interest is truly as big as it seems.   Money talks.   I know these questions have been asked a million times, but no one can seem to give a logical answer - and I guess Bulmer isn't talking. A real tragedy, but the recordings are out there.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 04:11 AM

Money talks

It doesn't talk, it swears, according to Dylan.
NOT that it is about money.
You know what Oscar Wilde said about someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?
Or is literature too something you just buy in a bookshop?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Charlie Chambers
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:16 AM

A previous post suggested that artists receive payments from PRS (live performance, radio, TV, etc)and MCPS (recordings). These organisations only represent composers and songwriters and like most record companies, have no interest in performers once they've served their purpose.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:08 AM

They also represent arrangers, and in particular PRS explicitly cover performances of traditional songs by an artist who has joined the PRS and registered their own arrangements of those songs.

The do pay up too. Take it from one who knows ;-)

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 08:29 AM

Astonishingly, someone on the point of releasing a CD recently thought the MCPS/PRS registration fee was some sort of iniquitous tax to rip off poor, hard-done by musicians.

On the contrary, these organisations have an interest in performers in that they comprise part of the membership and they exist to protect the interests of all members and to collect and distribute royalties for them.

Another myth doing the rounds is that the royalties from a self-composed piece is greater than a Trad/Arr. It isn't. It's the same.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:33 AM

"You know what Oscar Wilde said about someone who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing?
Or is literature too something you just buy in a bookshop? "

Did Oscar get paid for writing?   

He also once said "One should always play fairly when one has the winning cards. "   Seems like Mr. Bulmer isn't showing his hand.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:41 AM

Did Oscar get paid for writing?

He got two years hard labour in Reading Gaol then died in poverty, exiled in France aged 46.
Do punishments always fit crimes?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:42 AM

Diane, unless the law has changed recently.royalties are more for self composed peices,than trad arr,
I have had MY music played on BBC radio 2,several times in the past and I got more for my own compositions,than for TRAD ARR.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:50 AM

Dick, I based it on what the PRS said about The White Hare controversy.
As no-one (including the liner notes and the Folk Awards panel) can make up their minds whether that is 'self-composed' or Trad/Arr, I may have been given the wrong answer.

OTOH, are you the sole owner of the publishing rights for each composition?


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

"He got two years hard labour in Reading Gaol then died in poverty, exiled in France aged 46.
Do punishments always fit crimes? "

In retrospect, no. Burning witches seems sort of harsh looking back on it too.

Still, Wilde did get paid for his plays and novels at the time they were written - and they outlived old Oscar.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 10:22 AM

Very difficult to draw any conclusions from anecdotal evidence of what the PRS paid you for different performances/airtime. We've seen three playings (different tracks at different times) on the same radio programme give wildly different payouts. Aoth trad/arr. Same with performances of same song at different live events like festivals. There's no apparent logic to it.

It might seem unfair that you get full royalties on trad as you would if you wrote it yourself, but the downside of singing trad songs is that it's very unlikely that anyone else's performance of the same song will get you anything. (not impossible, if another performer is generous enough to acknowledge your contribution to the version/arrangement they sing)

But we digress...
The point is that re-release and sales of the albums locked up in CM's legal title would, in many cases, result in royalty payments to the artists.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 07:55 PM

Ron. Call me Mr Picky but I do not wish to enjoy my heritage having spent an arm and a leg battling with other eBayers over a scratched and over-priced ancient vinyl album. Please tell me where I can buy a brand new vinyl album of Noah's Ark Trap for the proper price with royalties to Nic Jones and I'll snap it up. I might even make hundreds of CD-Rs from it, sell 'em to all my mates for a tenner a time and send Nic a fiver for every copy I sell. Hey, there's a notion! JOKE, MR B, JOKE!!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 11 Jun 07 - 09:26 PM

Steve. You are not being picky. I would buy a copy of a Nic Jones CD-R from YOU.   I wish you could get your want list without having to pay an arm and a leg.   Please tell me where I can purchase Ramblin' Jack's Monitor LP's where the royalties go to him. I would love to have a CD copy of Ed McCurdy's "Blood Booze and Bones". Where are Cynthia Gooding's recordings? In his later years, Dave Van Ronk probably could have used some of the royalties for recordings he made. I'm sure Mark Spoelstra would have liked to see some royalties from his LP's.

Yes, I would also hope that those royalties would pay for health care, put food on the table and put kids through college. Most folksingers and singer-songwriters that I know struggle to get gas money selling their current CD's.   I would hope you are all correct, but I would not count on those royalties from older LP's to be a goldmine. If there was money to be made, I think this snake that you mention would have found a way. Still, I do agree - it is more than money at stake here.

I want my heritage back too - at prices I can afford. If only life worked that way.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:26 AM

as you say there is more than money at stake,there is the right to have ones artistic creative work,available to the public, so that the work can be appeciated,it is all very well to talk about re recording[but why should we have to],also it will never be possible to recreate how we were then.[the musical empathy that was created at that point in time],voices change etc, can never be reproduced.
I see someone is trying to sell[Vinyl] Cheating The Tide, on ebay for 51 euros,what a funny old world .Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 09:24 AM

"there is the right to have ones artistic creative work,available to the public"

That is the problem with the entire arguement. When you say it is the "right" to have the work available, you are speaking from a moral point of view and not a legal one. It would be wonderful if the world worked that way.   That change can't happen overnight.

At the recent Mystic Sea Music Festival there was a symposium, and one of the papers presented was about the works of Thomad D'Urfey. It caught my attention and I decided to see if the collection "Wit and Mirth, Pills to Purge Melancholy" was available in print. I could not find any publisher that has it available, and the copies I found were selling for over $1000.   While D'Urfey would not benefit from it, it would be wonderful to have his artistic creative work available to the public.

No, we can't recreate what we once were - but a song is not a museum piece.

As Satchel Paige said, "don't look back, the past may be gaining on you".

Keep the hope alive, I wish you luck in getting the rights to your work back.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:02 AM

That change can't happen overnight.

It could. It would take one person to see things differently (and more logically and more, even, to his own advantage).

I tend to back Leon Rosselson's view :

That's not the way it's got to be

over John Tams:

Nothing changes it all stays the same.

Because the law isn't justice but morality is right and the biggest, indeed the only, sin is ignorance.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 10:10 AM

Good points Diane, and I wish it would happen. I'm more pessimistic about the world these days, but I hope change can occur - I just think it will take a bit longer.

The problem with morality is that it becomes open to interpretation. Individuals have different value systems. Ignorance is not sin, it is a symptom.    Keep up the fight.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:45 AM

The South American River seems to have Pills To Purge Melancholy at slightly under $100.

That's a lot cheaper than an air ticket and nicking stuff surreptitiously from the Bod (as I did).


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:27 PM

Thanks Diane! That did not come up in my search yesterday.

"nicking stuff"???   Does that fit under "morality is right"???    :)


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:36 PM

Oh yes.
A song's not a lot of use stuck in an Oxford library.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Anglo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 12:59 PM


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:03 PM

nuff said


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Anglo
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM

Oops, sorry about that blank post above. What I was going to say was, the book Diane linked to is a recent musicological study, rather than a copy of the original Pills. There are reprints of that available, however, one that I know of from the Higginson Book Company in Salem, MA, which goes for about $250 US. Three large volumes, hardbound, being a facsimile of the 1876 reprint.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:15 PM

Mary's always nicking stuff from the Bod!
(the broadside texts)
If it means turning a tune and title and maybe a couple of lines collected by RVW in Cambridge (bless'im!) into a fully performable song it's definitely OK according to some system of morality!

As Diane says, it's not much use stuck in a library.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 01:20 PM

"Nicking" here means a five-finger discount - stealing.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,patronising git.
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 06:24 PM

You learn a lot from this site! News to me that theft from libraries is a noble endeavour.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 07:27 PM

Only copying the texts from the web site!
(well, I don't know what the other folks are doing, that's their business)
As we're not distributing copies, just using the words, I don't think anything illegal is going on here at any rate.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:12 PM

No, it is not illegal to copy text from the library. I was merely pointing out the difference in language - what "nicked" means in the U.S. is different from what Diane mentioned (I assume). The libary is a great resource and should be used for that - it is a way of keeping the heritage available to everyone.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:46 PM

D'Urfey's "Wit and Mirth, or, Pills to Purge Melancholy" is also available in pdf format from EEBO (Early English Books Online). It is a subscription service, but most university libraries, and many public libraries have subscriptions.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:32 AM

Pills to Purge Melancholy can be found here .... with no charge

CLICK


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Surreysinger
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:40 AM

Ron - "nicked" means the same over here as it does over there. However, there are shades of difference in the actual use of the word. "He nicked the goods when she wasn't looking" would definitely be an act of theft... "Can I nick the words from you?" would be a request to be given the words ... so context is all!


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:28 AM

Hi Nutty, thanks for the link. Unfortunately, it did not appear to be a very good scan and I found it very hard to read.   I'm not a big fan of online scans, they seldom are clear enough to be legible, and they rarely fit the screen. As much as the technology attempts to replace books, they still haven't figure out a way to do it. The devices are too cumbersome and require interaction that makes reading difficult.

Well, I guess there is something about having instant access to such works.    I'll still hold out for the day I can purchase a hard copy and not have to take out a second mortgage to do so.


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Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 12 May 12 - 03:38 AM

Copyright extension: good for Cliff and the Beatles, bad for the little guys?

Bob Stanley
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 September 2011 22.30 BST
Comments (20)

The extension in copyright law is hailed as a victory for musicians. But while it will surely benefit Cliff, the Beatles et al, it will close doors for a lot of minor stars

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/sep/15/copyright-extension-cliffs-law-beatles

Winners and losers … Cliff Richard will benefit from his songs staying in copyright for another 20 years, but the likes of Nic Jones (right) may not. Photographs: Getty; Redferns

Champagne corks would have popped in the offices of EMI and Universal on Monday, when the EU ratified a new law – "Cliff's law", after Cliff Richard – that extended the copyright in music recordings from 50 years to 70 years. The wealth of British music from the 1960s, even now largely untapped by the major labels, will almost certainly remain in their grasp for another two decades.

Thirty years ago, the music industry complained home taping was killing music, and came up with a natty crossbones logo that scarred every album's inner sleeve for the next few years. Of course, it wasn't, and the industry was flush. Then, while milking the nascent CD market with expensive, poorly mastered reissues, the major labels splurged their huge profits on office extravagances and hugely expensive videos that, pre-YouTube, disappeared after a handful of views. Still the labels whined: "Please feel sorry for us."

Now the industry really is dying, or at least shape-shifting and shrinking. Having cried wolf once, it is hard to feel sympathetic. And so, it insisted the 50-year copyright term would have hurt the artists, not the record companies.

Paul McGuinness, manager of U2, wrote in the Daily Telegraph earlier this summer about "the systemic copyright infringement that has helped wipe out so many musicians, bands and labels in recent years". I can't think of a single artist or band who has split up or retired in protest at illegal downloading. Without changes to copyright laws, McGuinness asked: "Where is the investment going to come from to fund the next generation of bands such as U2 and Coldplay?" Fran Nevrkla, chairman of the music licensing body PPL, welcomed the EU ruling, saying the "enhanced copyright framework will enable the record companies, big and small, to continue investing in new recordings and new talent". Not everyone agreed. According to media and intellectual property lawyer Daniel Byrne, the royalty pot "will not get substantially larger", but "the available money will be split more ways (and now to more estates of deceased performers). This rewards unproductive performers and means there is less available to support younger acts."

When you hear Jools Holland claiming "artists put their hearts and souls into creating music, and it is only fair that they are recompensed in line with the rest of Europe – it's important that creators get paid for the work they do", you wonder if he has ever asked his accountant about Squeeze royalties, or never encountered a musician who has been screwed over by his label.

Maybe Jools should speak to Nic Jones. His 1980 album Penguin Eggs was voted second-best folk album of all time by listeners of Mike Harding's Radio 2 show. In 1982 Jones was almost killed in a car crash, and was so badly injured he has found it almost impossible to play the guitar or fiddle since. Income from his old albums would have been welcome but, because Jones doesn't own the recordings, he has received nothing. His first three albums were recorded for Bill Leader's Trailer label which, after it went bankrupt, was bought by a company called Celtic Music. Celtic Music's owner Dave Bulmer has sat on the entire Trailer catalogue – outside of Topic, the most significant British folk label of the 70s – with only the occasional record sneaking out. Why? He could be holding out for a folk revival during which he could sell the label on and make the proverbial killing. Whatever the reason, Jones could do with the income from reissues of his albums.

The copyright laws, as they stood, meant Jones's first two albums would have become public domain within 10 years time – at which point he could have reissued them himself. They would have belonged to the public. Instead, as part of the Trailer catalogue, they will stay in the hands of Dave Bulmer for another 30 years. It's hard to tally this with Nevrkla's claim that the change will benefit "the whole community of recording artists, orchestral players, session musicians, backing singers and other performers … which is so important, especially when those individuals reach ripe old age".

Pop stars of the late 50s and early 60s may have reached a ripe old age, but are often still in business. Take Craig Douglas, who racked up a string of top 10 hits, including a 1959 No 1, Only Sixteen. The "singing milkman" isn't used to having his hits used in car adverts or even getting much airplay, aside from the odd track on Radio 2's Sounds of the 60s. Instead, he is reliant on playing shows to people who were there at the time and remember the likes of Pretty Blue Eyes. As the copyright laws stood, Douglas would have been able to press CDs of his own hits and sell them at his shows without having to go through EMI, the record company that has owned them since they were recorded. If he only sold 10 a night, that could be £100 in his pocket. Compare that to the figures estimated by a group of economists, intellectual property experts and music academics who studied the effects of copyright term extension: "Consolidating the figures published in the annual reports of various collecting societies, our best estimate is that for the typical performing artist, the annual payout is in the lower hundreds of pounds and will not increase from extension … £250 a year is not a pension."

What really set the industry lobbying for term extensions was not the desire to do right by Craig Douglas or Nic Jones. It was the realisation that the single biggest revenue generator in British pop – the Beatles' catalogue – was about to start falling out of copyright. The EU ruling has been labelled "Cliff's law", but Paul McCartney pushed just as hard for it.

Of course, you can see Cliff and Macca's point – who would want to see their precious work repackaged cheaply and shoddily by fly-by-night companies? But the flipside of the public domain argument is that genuine enthusiasts can use out-of-copyright material to make extraordinary new compilations to the benefit of the listening public. One of the most exciting series of the last few years has been the British Hit Parade, an annual roundup of every single to make the UK charts since they began in 1952. Like BBC4's Top of the Pops reruns, this is history played back in real time; you can appreciate the true impact of Heartbreak Hotel as a new entry in 1956, sandwiched between Frankie Laine's Hell Hath No Fury and Don Robertson's The Happy Whistler. Given this context, it's much easier to understand why people really did think Little Richard sounded like an alien. Odd, forgotten crazes become apparent – not only things like the mambo (1954) or songs about babies (1953), but a string of cowboy hits in 1955, predating the UK's taste for something equally American but a little more visceral. Was 1960 really pop's worst-ever year, worse even than 1976? You can listen to the 12-disc 1960 British Hit Parade and decide for yourself. (Answer: yes it was.)

Expiring copyrights have also led to "lost" recordings being dug up by musical archeologists such as Jonny Trunk. Kenny Graham's Moondog and Suncat Suite was a 1958 tribute to the New York street musician Moondog, played by Graham, a British jazzer, and engineered by Joe Meek. It's other-worldly, quite beautiful and, in its initial vinyl pressing, extremely rare. "It's good for the whole industry, it's good for the economy to make it public and make it all available," Trunk says. "Half the time the majors don't want to release this stuff. The Kenny Graham album became public domain; no one released it. I did, then it gets on TV in an ad for Terry's Chocolate Orange – if I hadn't issued it, it would have remained hidden. Now with the money from the ad, Graham's daughter has the opportunity to leave work and become a gardener." MGM, Graham's original label, had the album in its possession for half a century and did nothing with it.

The real money for musicians remains, as ever, in publishing; you write the songs, you get paid whenever your song is played in public, and the copyright for composers already lasts for their lifetime and then 70 years. When Jonny Trunk got into a conversation with Noel Gallagher about copyright laws recently, the writer of Wonderwall said he "didn't give a shit" about his recordings becoming public domain. "He knows it's about publishing," says Trunk. "The money isn't in making new Beatles albums. That's over."

Unlike Paul McCartney, Cliff Richard only ever wrote the odd song, and none of his A-sides; he would never make a living from publishing, so it's easier to understand his grievances with copyright term. However, the EU ruling doesn't attempt to solve the biggest problem for older performers: they are dependent on the terms of their recording contracts, drawn up years ago by record companies. Cliff, in a position of strength, will have renegotiated his deal with EMI many times over the years. Craig Douglas, in a position of weakness, almost certainly won't.

The pioneering work in high-end reissues of public domain recordings will now be stemmed, along with the petrol-station cheapies. The recordings they have salvaged will no longer belong to the public. Craig Douglas and the other minor stars of the 60s won't get the chance to reissue their own recordings and make money for themselves. That sounds like copyright theft to me.

Public domain: Three great albums that depended on the lack of copyright

Round the Town: Following Grandfather's Footsteps – A Night at the London Music Hall (Bear Family, 2000)

A definitive four disc box with a hardback book that states a case for music hall as Britain's equivalent of the blues. Some of it is mawkish, some very funny (Sam Mayo's Things Are Worse in Russia), some quite filthy (May Moore Duprez's Won't You Come Dear Into the Park?) but it is compiled from such a wide array of labels, many long defunct, that to license every track individually would have been almost impossible. With public domain recordings, the story can be told.

The First British Hit Parade (Acrobat, 2003)

More a social history document than a CD. Al Martino's Here In My Heart is widely known as the first No 1, but who was at No 2 that week in 1952? It was Jo Stafford's sensual and exotic You Belong To Me. In fact, Al's Neapolitan ballad is possibly the worst song in this whole chart, made up of just 15 songs. There's wild west drama from Frankie Laine (High Noon), a melty Rosemary Clooney ballad (Half As Much), and even a revival for Vera Lynn, cheering on our boys in Korea with the rather sweet Forget Me Not. Just four years later, pop had changed completely.

We're Gonna Rock, We're Gonna Roll (Proper, 2005)

The roots of modern pop over a four-disc set. Many historians still hail Ike Turner and Jackie Brenston's Rocket 88 as the first rock'n'roll record, but here are dozens of other postwar claimants, divided into hillbilly bop, blues and doo wop, with a chronological fourth disc of tracks that blend all three, peaking with Elvis's That's All Right Mama and Bill Haley's Rock Around the Clock in 1954. The title is taken from a prophetic and rumbustious 1947 Wild Bill Moore recording. I'll give him the gold medal.

• This article was amended on 19 September 2011 to make clear that the copyright on compositions lasts for the composer's lifetime and then another 70 years.


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