master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]

Subject: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:52 AM

thought this might be a relevant point to branch off a new thread
from the Phoebus/Bulmer contraversy.......

I've been searching some links at 'Sound on Sound'
regarding master tape deterioration and preservation.

Articles I remember from the last few years..

also info re: recording contracts..


Maybe you and other mates here might find it interesting
if you have not already read any of it.






TAPE DECAY:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/fxcopyroom.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1996_articles/may96/salvagearchives.html


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr06/articles/rogernichols_0406.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1994_articles/mar94/tapecare.html

CONTRACTS:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep00/articles/music.htm


http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/articles/contracts.htm



have fun reading.. or at least try not to despair too much...

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin I-O-M
Date: 30 May 07 - 11:39 AM

The number of threads, closed, aborted, and continuing show the general annoyance of the UK folk world to Bulmer (and Sharpley). It may well qualify for the Guinness Book Of Records - but what a crap record to hold!

Related threads:
master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer (359)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6) (136)
Photo of Bulmer required (24)
BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry (3)
Dave Bulmer - Address (39)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (5) (88) (closed)
Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (4) (122) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3 (124) (closed)
'Celtic / Bulmer' aborted Part 3 (12) (closed)
'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Pt 2 (96) (closed)
The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 30 May 07 - 12:45 PM

He might hold the record but will he release the CD?!

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 May 07 - 12:39 PM

buspassed ,that was very funny.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,N. Spencer
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:16 PM

Not being someone who has contributed to this forum before, I'm a little puzzled that someone called 'Joe Offer' closed down a related thread because I mentioned that I was annoyed by the stuff a person calling himself 'Tyke' was saying. Is one not allowed to express their annoyance on Mudcat? It strikes me that some pretty nasty stuff was being said by the pro-bootlegging lobby, but expressing one's feelings about this - without resorting to abuse - results in censorship. What gives, Mr Offer? I'm sort of confused. Have I inadvertantly contravened a weird unspoken rule?

Best Wishes

Nigel

---

No, the whole darn thread had been far too nasty for far too long. Your post was just the most recent example of people discussing their personal annoyance with other people instead of discussing the issue. The UK Mudcatters have a long history of being unable to discuss the Dave Bulmer issue in a civil manner. I allow the threads to go on until they reach a level of nastiness I can no longer tolerate, and then I shut them down.
Sometime, it would be nice to have a rational discussion of the issue.
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 07 - 09:47 PM

Thread creep, but another related issue - do the artists get any royalties, or payment, when one track appears on a compilation album.

I note Rubber Band is on the Fairport "Loose Chippings ..." CD.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 06:10 AM

Nigel, it wasn't your post but the one that followed it and possibly others further up the thread, and the whole general tenor of the discussion that caused it to be closed.

Your posting was at least on-topic, restrained and not particularly an ad hominem attack, and clearly wasn't the reason why the thread was closed.

Joe Offer is, as far as I can tell, a senior member of a select group of people (sometimes called mud-elves) who are allowed to edit and delete Mudcat posts, mostly doing so to remove spam, of which there is a lot but it mostly gets zapped within minutes, but also to set some limits to debates that get out of hand with personal attacks.

Anahata

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Sparkles
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 08:43 AM

Nigel, I don't think Joe's comments were especially aimed at you. Members & regulars say far worse things to each other all the time so you weren't being any ruder than a lot of folks are. (And you used your real name, which not everyone does.) I think it was a final straw breaking the camel's back. Joe is normally very patient & polite but this whole subject has run on and on and on and he's probably just sick of it. It must really build up after spending hours weeding out spam & flames. Don't let it put you off Mudcat (or Joe) and come back & participate in some of the other threads.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Nigel Spencer
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:28 PM

Thanks for the comments above. I was going to forget Mudcat and stick to friendlier forums, but I may stick around for a while. Probably won't say much though!

Nigel

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

Trying to talk about CM/Bulmer on here is never going to be 'friendly' as there are those with long agendas but who neither know nor care what it's like on the ground. Is Joe Offer 'sick of it'? I think we should be told. However 'sick' he might be, it can't be anything like how sick the artists so affected are.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,N. Spencer
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:00 PM

Fair point about the friendliness on this subject and the rationale for the lack of it, Diane.

I still think downloads are the way to go if poverty is part of the reason given for sitting on all this music. It's cheap to do, it gets it out there for people like me to buy and it makes money for the artists and for the owners of the recordings. A genuine 'no losers' situation, in fact.

I suspect on some level I'm being naieve here though. I can't be the first person to suggest this solution...

Nigel

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 03 Jun 07 - 07:14 PM

Downloads?

Y-E-E-E-S.

I think you need to address your idea to Planet Bulmer for which there is, unfortunately, no known email address.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Manny
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:12 PM

DE
He bought them they are his property to do with what he wishes, get over it. Why dont you take Mr E out for a meal (if there is one God bless him) in the sun and relax you wont change anything eapecially with your attitude.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

MANNY,Youareright legally he can do what he wants,but we are talking about morals if you dont believe in morals,youare amoralpossiblyimmoral.
therest of your statement to Diane Easby is uncalled for ,patronising,irrelevant and flaming the situation,something that is against Mudcat rules.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:02 PM

"His property to do with what he wishes" is exactly the problem. He's dropping them down a black hole, and worse, so why should the affected artists and their fans "get over it" when they're being adversely affected?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Manny
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 04:45 PM

Captain, I believe in morals but this is about his property, and he can do what he likes with HIS property, exactly the same as you can do with YOUR property. And she/he is the biggest flamer and patroniser on Mudcat so please dont accuse me of that

How do you all know that by releasing the music it will sell, heresay, research wishful thinking?

If you are that enthusiastic you could all offer to fund the release of the music.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Jun 07 - 05:31 PM

Manny in this particular case you are the flamer.
property can be about morals too,People can own property,if they own that property and leave it empty for years and years[Centre Point in london]they are behaving without morals ,because they are contributing to the homeless situation.It is their property, they have a legal right to do what they want with it,but they are still acting without moral consideration.
that is also my assessment of Celtic Music[though their treatment of Mick Tems gives us hope].
Whether Diane is or is not the biggest flamer on mudcat, does not give you the right to flame.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 02:41 AM

Here is another Hypothetical example.The trustees of Cecil Sharp house are persuaded to sell to a buyer the building and the library,there is no indication that the buyer is not going to allow members of the public access to the library,the buyer has a legal right to do what he wants with his property,but since society [the public are adversely affected]he/she is behaving without moral consideration.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:24 AM

Unfortunately but factually, the real fault lies with the artists who so naively passed on their copyright to others.

Unfortunately and legally there is no going back.

Sadly, life is not like a pantomime where the good guys always win and the bad guys always get their fingers burnt.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 06:44 AM

(1) The artists signed a contract standard at the time which didn't (as now) contain a clause by which rights reverted to them if the company was wound up. Bill Leader was a friend. What's naive? They just weren't clairvoyant.

(2) There could quite easily be a 'going back', sans a drama of Bleak House proportions All it would take is for someone at CM to come out of hiding and talk.

Yes, I very often feel like barbecuing Bulmer apologists but don't. No need, I have plenty of facts. Their problem if it brings down their house of cards. Makes you wonder why they built it.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 09:57 AM

But you are all just going round in circles Diane. It's all talk and no action.

Why are you and others like you not calling Bulmer's bluff and re-releasing the material?
The vinyls are out there (I have many in my collection) and could be easily converted to CD with todays technology.

Given the personal situation of some artists, it would be very interesting to bring a test case to court.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

Because as things stand, he is the only one with the legal right to do this.
What you are suggesting is piracy.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 10:15 AM

Ahem!!!
Are you volunteering, nutty?
Getting on the wrong side of the law is hardly the way to tackle this.

As for test cases - there are some legal proceedings going on anyway. The outcome will be very interesting, but as it's all going on behind closed doors there's very little to be said now, short of uninformed speculation.

Anahata

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM

I'm pleased to hear that something is happening given that this problem has been under discussion since 2001.

However, interestingly, I came across a Celtic music track (one of those under discussion) in a recently released folk compilation CD.
Was this with or without Mr Bulmer's permission I wonder?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:44 AM

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: treewind
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:51 AM

Is that a hint Ralphie?
A.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 11:55 AM

Woops.
Hit return too early!
Nutty, a small correction.
This situation has indeed only been discussed openly since 2001 (app).
But the whole sorry saga goes back to the early 1980s. Before Fora like Mudcat actually existed.
Whether Anahata is correct, I know not, but if there is an attempt at justice going on, I wish the participants great luck.
They will certainly need it.
As for the odd CM owned track popping up every now and then, Yes, it is puzzling, I'm sure that a couple of Dransfield tracks on the Free Reed "Now and Then" compilation of a couple of years ago were from the first 2 LPs on Leader.
Not sure how Neil Wayne managed that particular deal.
Ah well, one day we will all find out.
Ralph

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 12:13 PM

Several tracks from Rout Of The Blues and Lord Of All I Behold were reproduced on Free Reed's Up To Now Dransfields retrospective (1997), made available 'by generous permission of Dave Bulmer, Neil Sharpley and the CMD Leader-Trailer Archive'.

a recently released folk compilation CD

Honest Jon's?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (No not that one!!!)
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:03 PM

"Some of the real jewels in this package are the inclusion of two tracks from each of the Dransfields' ground-breaking first two LPs on Bill Leader's Trailer label, recorded back in 1970 & 1971. These recordings have been thankfully conserved, along with many other of the most important recordings of Britain's early Folk Revival, in Dave Bulmer & Neil Sharpley's Leader Archives, and thanks to Dave and Neil, these tracks from 'Lord of all I Behold' and 'Rout of the Blues' are at last seeing light of day some 15 years after their untimely deletion."

http://www.free-reed.co.uk/frdcd18

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:17 PM

A recently released folk compilation CD

SEE HERE

Guess which track I have been referring to --- Track 8 perhaps??

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:26 PM

And just a year or two later, lo and behold, Rout Of The Blues made a sneaky reappearance on CD-R. Not that Barry Dransfield knew a thing about it until someone showed him a copy. Neither he nor Robin had been consulted about such a project. CM pays him no royalties, natch. Next thing he knew was a tiny cheque from the PRS for airplay. 'Wow, enough for a Chinese takeaway', he said. 'Sure makes up for all those years of unavailability'.

I have never actually seen this CD-R on sale at a retail outlet so have missed the opportunity of buying it then smashing it in front of the manager's eyes. But if I ever do, I will.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:34 PM

Re Ms Nutty's post:

Union Square is, as far as I know, a reputable company specialising in re-releases of 60s/70s material. I hope they are because I've bought some.

This compilation includes a lot of heavyweights and it would be relatively simple to check whether rights have been properly leased (e.g. a phone call to Neil Wayne re Dransfield).

Good luck if you are turning to sleuthing.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: nutty
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 03:51 PM

The leaflet that comes with the CD states .....

"All tracks licensed courtesy of Sanctuary Records Group Ltd"

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:02 PM

Sanctuary is the UK's largest independent record company, incorporating labels like Rough Trade and Trojan. So it would be a little surprising if they are doing anything really dodgy.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (No not that one!!!)
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:19 PM

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no not that one!!!)
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:26 PM

this problem seems to be going round in ever decreasing circles, not to mention 12 threads, seven of which have been shut down. Is there any answer, I mean apart from 'piracy' and or boycott of product?
We can look to the future to prevent further occurences such as this, but the past is far more problematical

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:43 PM

Union Square

Meant, obviously, to write Market Square.

Clearly an alcohol deficiency and it's time I went to the pub.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 04:47 PM

Ever decreasing circles.....indeed.
There is no quick solution to this problem.
We all just keep carrying on.
I'm sure that Sanctuary are blameless, (along with many other companies).
In fact, nobody of repute goes anywhere near Celtic Music at all.
One day, it will be resolved.
Maybe, I'll be alive to see it. Sadly, lots of others have already shuffled off this mortal coil.
May they sleep peacefully.
Regards Ralph

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no not that one!!)
Date: 05 Jun 07 - 05:36 PM

"May they sleep peacefully"

I still remember hearing Lal Waterson's voice for the very first time,it was stunning in the extreme, and it riles me to no end, that she got done out of what was rightfully hers. I sincerly hope that, even for just her sake, some will be done, hopefully in our life times.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 06:44 AM

Manny, I have no intention of getting over it,as I am someone who has been adversely affected by Celtic Music,if I was able to issue a cd of my lps[particuarly Cheating The Tide .I would have more to sell on my website.I am sure if you were in my position you would feel the same way.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 11:38 AM

I suggest you all get use to this bit of boilerplate--"These recordings have been thankfully conserved, along with many other of the most important recordings of Britain's early Folk Revival, in Dave Bulmer & Neil Sharpley's Leader Archives".

If it's any consolation, Mr. Miles, your currently unavailable recordings have bought you a place in history. We should all be so lucky.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:15 PM

Actually we don't know that they have been conserved!!

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 12:56 PM

m ted,none of us knows about buying a place in history.whatwill people remember in 200 years time[unlikely to be Celtic music catalogue]
I would prefer to be remembered for what I have done,but frankly I am not concerned with a place in history,I am more concerned with getting my creative work back,and into the public domain.
as Folkie Dave says we know nothing about whether they have been conserved.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 01:33 PM

"getting my creative work back,and into the public domain."

Capt. - I'm not sure you meant it that way, but "public domain" in the legal sense means that everyone owns the rights and can release recordings without compensation. In television and film, many older productions have gone beyone the copyright period and the rights were never, or could not, be renewed. This enables anyone to release copies of it. If you look at some of the old Laurel and Hardy films, you will find multiple companies releasing copies of the same feature - each with different quality depending on their source.

Has anyone explored the possibility that some of the copyright laws might have expired and the rights for these recordings could be up for grabs?

I also know that many artists have re-recorded their original recordings just for the reasons you mentioned.   Obviously that can't be done for some of the recordings in question, but is that an option in your case?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 02:06 PM

Has anyone explored the possibility that some of the copyright laws might have expired and the rights for these recordings could be up for grabs.

They haven't expired.

European sound recordings are currently only protected by copyright for 50 years but by contrast, the work of authors, songwriters and composers (i.e. the song rather than the recording), is protected for 70 years after their death.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:47 PM

those recordings can never be reproduced exactly as they were,some of the solo material,perhaps.
Ron,yes of course, I meant available for me to sell to the public

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbibs (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:49 PM

the new thread "COllecting,and Ethics (moderated)" is beginning to sound familiar already......

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Mr Gubbins (no, not that one!!!)
Date: 06 Jun 07 - 03:59 PM

Oh dear I just remembered, I'm guilty of owning one CD put out by Celtic Music. It's The Wild Side Of Town by The Albion Band and Chris Baines. Celtic Music CM / CMC / CMCD 042. LP, cassette, CD, UK, 1987.
Wonder if they got any money...?

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:26 AM

Captain - I understand that you could not reproduced the original exactly, but perhaps a "revised" version is something worth considering.    To my way of thinking, a song is something that is living and can always be tinkered with - not necessarily improved but looked at from a different perspective.    By creating a new work, it also makes the product that Bulmer is holding less valuable to him - in the eyes of most people - "new" is perceived as "better", and while that is not necessarily true, it makes his hold on the product less valuable.

Subject: RE: master tapes [re:Phoebus/Bulmer !!!?]
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jun 07 - 09:51 AM

Hi Ron,
In the plethora of writings on this subject you might have missed the fact that in the year before he sadly died, Tony Rose did exactly that. Re-recording a lot of his finest material on a CD called "Barebones", out of frustration that his own original performances where unavailable.
I find that a very poignant thought.
Hope you can find a copy somewhere, well worth a listen.

Regards Ralphie