Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)

Subject: CM 6
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:46 PM

My o My..
Things have come to a pretty pass.
We now have Guests insulting the young daughter of Tony Rose.
This young lady's only ambition is to see her Fathers recordings be made available to the many people who admired him.
An admirable intention from a child to her father.
Liam, if you reply to this thread, you'll look like a prat.
Best wishes to you, Laura, Anahata, and countless others (Andy, etc)
How many years does it take.
Laura.....Happy to carry on with the project, and I'm sure Liam would like a copy of the finished CD. LOL!!
Best Wishes to all, even Liam!
Ralphie

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:32 PM

To Explain..

CM is Cetlic Music.....I can see your eyes glazing over already!
Particularly in the USA..!
If you can be bothered, there are countless threads about the situation over here in the UK. (Dave Bulamer/Celtic Music....No probs finding them!)
Go on, dig about a bit....
And as the famous quote from "I Claudius" states.....


"Let all the poisons that lurch in the mud....hatch out"

Bit of a clue

Sleep well all Ralphie

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: Ralphie
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:00 PM

Liam Me old mate...
Where are you?
You were making me smile!!
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:29 PM

Where's Liam gone? Why, maybe into the vaults of Bulmer Towers to bring those long-hidden masters into the light of day? Come on, it's not that hard. And although it's too late for too many, there are still lots of people who will even thank you. Think about it.

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: pavane
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:27 AM

Maybe the thread title was too obscure?
(PS Is 'the incomparable' Ralphie going to get another slot on JW's prog?)

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: JudeL
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 09:44 AM

Hey Ralphie if yr going to quote, get it right:

"let all the poisons that LURK in the mud ....hatch out"

OED
lurch : an unsteady swaying movement, stagger
lurk : wait furtively or keeping out of sight; be latent





ducking & running to hide   ....
                or perhaps that should be lurching & lurking?

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: GUEST,Peter Canning.
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 10:32 AM

Bulmer aquired these masters in the first place I presume because
nobody else wanted them, I am not an apologist for Mr Bulmer, but
I don't think the demand is out there at the moment to make releases
in the normal way financially viable.
Bulmer's Music by Mail company has released, or will provide some of
them on request CDR'S I know, but still better than nothing.
I am not sure about the royalty situation, but I'm sure it will not
amount to much anyway.

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: *Laura*
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 03:02 PM

Oh has Liam gone? What a shame, there was something I never got to say to him before.
Starting in 'F' and ending in Off.
but it appears he already has.

cheers Ralphie :-) and everyone. love ya guys!

xLx

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: *Laura*
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 03:03 PM

(might not be appropriate - but a chord was struck.)

xLx

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: Ralphie
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 03:19 PM

Hi all
Firstly. Countess R...Cheers!
Second. Pav, Yes title deliberately obscure, and as far as JW goes...No chance. Once was enough!
Third. JudeL...My memory is not what it was!
Fourth. Peter C. Point well made, and well taken. No arguments with the position, apart from the fact that, whatever meagre royalties there may be, will never find their way back to the artists, and anyway, it's not about money, but about basic humanity. If you haven't reaf all the other threads, I would urge you to do so. But, respect for yur opinion.
Fifth. Laura.....Hope that Liams tirade didn't get to you too much.

Finally, the Mudcat masters closed the last thread because it was getting out of hand. Lets keep the flame alive with this one (But not the Flamers!!)...as has been said many times before, don't rise to the bate, and let's all just keep this factual.

Regards to all, and talk soon no doubt

Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: *Laura*
Date: 15 Sep 04 - 03:48 PM

No not really. Theres always going to be a few...

cheers though

xLx

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: pavane
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 02:28 AM

"Needn't bother paying royalties, because it won't amount to much"?
Try that with your income tax, for one example!
Laws are laws, and you can't ignore them if you don't like them.
(Well, looks like you can, I suppose, if you are DB)

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: *Laura*
Date: 16 Sep 04 - 03:50 PM

rolling eyes and shaking head. tut tut Mr B.

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: *Laura*
Date: 29 Oct 04 - 02:06 PM

Just wondered what you think of this -
I wrote a letter to Bulmer and got a bit of a cut and paste job back, but apparently Celtic Music are releasing Tony's 'Under the Greenwood Tree' on CD in November. ooooh.
Oh but get this - if me or my family want a copy we can buy it at the artist royalty free price. Makes everything ok again.

xLx

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 04:52 PM

How generous.

Have you asked for royalty statements so that you can compare sales against receipts?

And what did he say then?

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 05:43 PM

And I thought this was all about an area of beloved Essex.

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: *Laura*
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 03:33 PM

We're not getting involved. He can poo about with whatever he wants (weird phrase but oh well!) - but I'm f***ed if I'm going to shell out for 100 disks or whatever to speed up the process.

Anyway 'Tony Rose Live' is going to be much better than Bulmer's re-release - and it's OURS!

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:19 AM

I thought that interest in the great music business altruist had come to a frustrated full stop. Only when idling through Google and tapping the name Bulmer did CM6 come to light. My instincts were right after all, he is still the detested person he always was and it seems, still up to his curious royalty tricks ("artist free royalty price") - he just can't resist it. Presumably the writers and publishers will be burnt as well as the artist? I guess with Bulmer its just the "F**K Them" syndrome.

Thanks also for your good wishes Ralphie, keep up the good work, but I do think the thread title should be in line with the previous 5. Many members of the former Bulmer fan club presumably will be like me and will only stumble on CM6 by accident - and that really would be a shame. Keep the light burning.

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: GUEST,Ralphie at work
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 01:06 PM

Hi Andy. Sorry for the obscure name for the thread. After the Flame Fest that Celtic Music 5 became. Joe Offer quite rightly asked me to tone things down a bit...maybe I went too far.
Mind you after reading about Mr B's astonishing offer to Tony Roses daughter, words still fail me at the gall of the man.
Be assured, that, the fight goes on.
Merry Christmas to all in the IOM...
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: *Laura*
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:04 PM

keeping the light burning!

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 03:18 AM

Thanks Ralphie, thanks *Laura*. There are a few of us in the Island folk scene who have watched the Bulmer saga for many years and reason that one day the law must catch up with this gentleman and his partner Mr Sharpley. It can only be a matter of time - and even that thick skinned pair must know it.

As for the Tony Rose situation I too am staggered by the transparent audacity not to mention illegality of the proposal. I am sure that the MCPS should now be thoroughly investigating this company and its Directors. For it to be so blatantly put should sound warning bells that this litle scam is probably just the tip of a very large corrupt iceberg.

Tony's family could well take heart from our well known National Emblem of The Three Legs Of Man - with the legend - Quocunque Jeceris Stabit - 'Whichever way you throw me I stand'. Which of course should leave at least one leg to give Bulmer the kicking he needs.

Subject: RE: CM 6
From: Ralphie
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 07:30 PM

Hey Andy... I never knew about your legs until now...How appropriate!!
And don't worry...not letting go this end!!

Kind Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: red max
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 05:27 AM

Has Pete Coe given up on this cause? I think it used to rankle him

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Ralphie
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 05:41 AM

Hi Mr Max.

Haven't spoken to Pete recently, but, I think it very unlikely that he's given up!!!

Cheers Ralphie

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: *Laura*
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 05:21 PM

I think Bulmer offered him a similar deal to us but he turned him down.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 08:26 AM

Its pretty clear from what I have read that you would have expected nothing more from Bulmer other than to offer a dodgy deal, and by the same reasoning, absolutely nothing less from Pete Coe by refusing to deal.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Jan 05 - 11:40 PM

Does anyone know the details of the contractual agreement between Tony Rose and Leader/Trailer?

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: GUEST,andymac (cookieless but not voiceless)
Date: 24 Jan 05 - 12:39 PM

Bulmer? Never met him, don't want to. Wouldn't even drink his cider... Sounds well dodgy to be impugning the lovely Laura, never mind his nastiness- well documented towards many artists.
Hope the live CD is coming on fine.
Maybe other artists should look at re-recording some of the stuff he has under lock and key. Then perhaps we could see what the commercial demand is for it? If it isn't commercially available people on both sides can make uncheckable claims....
Still think he's sounds dodgy though...
Andy

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 07:23 AM

Unfortunately, for some, re-recording is no longer possible.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Bernard
Date: 25 Jan 05 - 02:28 PM

Rosie Hardman released 'The Lost Leader' partly because a certain party won't give her access to masters of her recordings...

She is far from happy about it.

Fortunately, she paid Bill leader to record the tracks which were released as 'The Lost Leader', so she owns the copyright.

Although Rosie is very much alive, re-recording is not an option for her, either.

I hope it works out for you, Laura. Tony was one of the truly greats, it was an honour to have known him.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: GUEST,Rosie Hardman
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:04 PM

Far from HAPPY about it? I think you might say that Bernard my friend.

I wouldn't even like to BEGIN to describe how I feel about it... but I'm sure that those who remember me will be able to guess. My feelings are as gloriously understated as they ever were at my gigs LOL! :-)

By the way pal - 'Stopped in My Tracks' is due out on CD in the next couple of weeks too. Thank God the ex-boss of Plant Life is a VERY different animal to Mr. Bulmer. In fact I'll take this opportunity to say that John Garrad is one of the nicest guys I've ever met through my music and he has a great philosophy about the music I recorded i.e. 'Let's get it out there - for people to listen to and for you to get a fair deal while you're actually still alive'. He's moved heaven and earth to get my albums back into my own control and out to the public over the last few months - God bless him I say.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Ralphie
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 01:18 AM

Rosie.

Good news indeed, will seek out a copy as soon as I can..
Regards
Ralphie

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 09 Feb 05 - 02:17 AM

Well done for speaking up, Rosie. There have been a number of Bulmer "excusists" on this forum. If they are not actually Bulmer henchmen they clearly would not know the extent of this mans' disgusting attitude and mean-mindedness to folk musicians. God knows how he must treat others he deals with although from what I hear he is devoid of any moral component whatseover. If what you feel is the truth Rosie, stick with it and say it - what you say now could just prevent another musicician falling as a casualty to this man and his legal honcho Sharpley.

To any would be person contemplating a deal with the two of them, seek out their former partners, seek out others who have "dealt" - and be very warned - it always ends in tears.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: GUEST,Lien
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 02:38 AM

The following recently appeared in WIKIPEDIA - seems our favorite crook is becoming the suff of legend!

Celtic Music
(record label)
Celtic Music was founded by Dave Bulmer in 1982. He bought up the back catalogue of several small companies: Leader, Trailer, Rubber Records, Black Crow, and Highway, and started re-issuing some of them. As the name suggests, many of the artists were Celtic, but some were English singer-songwriters. Among the most successful new artists on the label were Scottish folk-rockers "Wolfstone" and Newcastle's "The Whisky Priests".

From the mid-nineties a tide of opinion made Dave Bulmer into a hate figure. He was attacked in the pages of The Observer, Folk Roots and on the bulletin board of the Musician's Union. The main accusation was that he would not release albums by Nic Jones, who had been a victim of a severe car crash, nor would he sell the rights back to Nic Jones. Other recording artists also appeared to be receiving short shrift. Bulmer received unexpected support from Dick Gaughan. Other accusations include issuing CDs which were the re-recordable kind instead of the standard permanent ones. It is not clear if this makes any substantial difference. The final audit of the company was in 1999. The company secretary made serious criticisms of the company finances. There were suggestions that Bulmer had himself taken money from the funds. The company appears to have gone bankrupt shortly afterwords.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article "Celtic Music (record label)".

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:54 AM

I always follow the DB / CM threads as they provide great (if somewhay voyeuristic) entertainment. I'm not a DB apologist, nor am I hater. I speak only for myself as a music lover.
Could I ask a couple of straightfoward questions, hopefully without getting flamed.

1. It would seem that DB has a long track record (no pun intended) of unfair treatment of artists. If this is the case, why have so many artists signed with him over the years? I dont want to sound churlish, but if I had heard and believed so many bad things about him and his companies, I wouldnt go near his operation.

2. If he truly is such a villain, why do so many label still continue to use him for distribution? (All my Radio Ballads CD re-issues on Topic label carried CM distibution stickers / cards)

3. Finally, if his reputation for dishonesty is well founded, why did so many labels sell their back cataloge to him? These include Trailer / Leader, Black Crow / Rubber, Sweet Folk and Country / Greenwich Village, Mulligan, Broadside, Folk Heritage, Making Waves and probably a lot more too.

As far as I know, DB has never been prosecuted which means either
A. Hes too smart a crook to get caught
or
B. He operates just on the right side of the law.

I suspect the latter to be true, in which case why should he be ANY different from those who run mainstream (ie non folk) labels. Musica history over the last 50 years should have taught us that the "men in suits" will always look after number one. The term music business contains 2 words. We are at risk of overlooking the latter of these as we so love the former.

I have no inside knowlege of how these things work and only base my thoughts on what I read here and in the press, coupled with what musician friends tell me. I hope the above comments dont upset or anger anyone, but I'd be delighted to hear your thoughts....standing back waiting for the assault

Cheers
LL

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: GUEST,Lien
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:08 AM

I have learned much about Mr Bulmer and his curious practices that have damaged nearly everyone who has had the misplaced trust to deal with him. To give some insight I can respond to your questions in the oredr you put them: 1 Generally speaking musicians are trusting souls and, sadly rather foolishly, not over-concerned with the business side of things. Remember that Bulmer projects himself as being a musician - which he is - and therefore could never be a bastard to a fellow "artiste". Whilst drivelling on about "Im a musician myself" he has the effect of luring the prospective signing into a very, very false sense of wellbeing. (viz Brian from Flute)   2 as far as Distribution is concerned there are very few mainstream distributors who will handle folk music. CM, in many senses, is the only ballgame in town.   3    I think you will find that most of the back catalogue was acquired (sometimes in very iffy circumstances indeed) from Receivers of the former labels you mention. This is certainly true in the case of Leader/Trailer and Making Waves at least.   4 He escapes any tangible legal action through the efforts of his partner, the bent former lawyer Neil Sharpley. There are many, many people who can attest to the bludgeoning and spiteful treatment dealt by that person. Even former partners have suffered at his hands. It is he who threatens would be claimants with the big legal stick.   I am aware of at leat two parties co-operating at this time to present a cogent complaint to the Police about Mr Bulmer's business practices. It really can only be a matter of time before he himself is doing time. 5 And of course Bulmer is not a "suit".   I would doubt if he even owns a suit. His dress sense makes the notion of "dressing down" look like "dressing up". Perfect for assisting the snaring of musicians to deals that they will almost all live to deeply regret at some future date.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: shepherdlass
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:20 AM

Further to the distribution point - Black Crow was owned by a long-term friend of Bulmer's and the two companies were effectively in bed with each other for a long time.

Like Lien, I also gather the distribution rights of a lot of the other companies were acquired from receivers.

Now, any company seeking to emulate CM will find things a lot tougher because there are nice, intermediary-free websites where folkies can buy their CDs direct from the artists.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:09 AM

Thanks for the input to my thoughts. glad I didnt get my head bitten off.
Regarding distribution though, I know Topic use Proper, why do they also use CM? Also why dont all the other companies use Proper / ADA or whoever. I cant believe they are being ripped off too

Also (playing devils advocate here), If DB bought all these labels and back catalogues from liquidators, etc..it would suggest they were not making a profit and had gone bust. Does it equate then there there is less commercial demand for some of these back catalogue recording than we would like to think. This would explain DBs reluctance to re-issue many of them

Only a thought

LL

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:42 AM

For all that is said about the Nic Jones non accessible albums, Id like to point out that on "Penguin Eggs" there is no credit or recognition for "Wee Pot Stove" or "Trawlermen" written by the late Harry Robertson who was alive at the time of "Penguin Eggs" release. This has been a sore point for his family. Harry Robertson did release an album called "Whale Chasing Men" containing these songs and more that he had written from his experiences as a whalemen down in Leith Harbor South Georgia in the 1940s and 50s. It has been my experience that anyone who wishes to record Harry's music need only get in touch with the family in Australia for permission. This was the case anyway in the late 1990s.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:58 PM

Lancashire Lad, if CM didn't expect to make money from the acquired recordings this would explain not reissuing them but not why apparently they refused to sell them back to the artists. Confusing!

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:40 AM

Susanne, Maybe I misunderstood things a little, but are there not artists complaining that CM / DB wont "give" them the rights to their albums back? I thought the argument was something along these lines

CM. We cant afford to issue all the back catalogue at one time, so are slowly working our way through the more commercially viable ones

ARTIST. Well can I have the tapes back for mine?

CM No, you can BUY them back.

As I said in a previous post, I have no inside knowledge of these things, but thought this was one (of many!) things that has p*ssed off some musicians

LL

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:31 AM

LL, you keep telling us you know nothing of the situation, then telling us what the situation is: "I have no inside knowledge, but artists are complaining that he won't 'Give' rights back."

You should read the very first post of the very first thread about this, which appears above as a link ("The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed).") You will find that, in fact, he has declined to give, sell, or even discuss selling the rights back to individual artists. Honestly, it is tedious to have people admitting they know nothing and yet presuming to explain things to (or to ask questions a la Socrates of) people who know more.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 07:07 AM

Hi Nerd
Sorry for not being all knowledgable! But please correct me if I'm wrong on the following.
Michael Chapman / Voiceprint bought the rights back from DB for the Almost Alone album re-issued late last year
The Houghton Weavers have also bought back some or all of their back catalogue.

The above info came from the artists, so it seems that some people at least can negotiate with him.

Sorry for admitting I know nothing of the internal situation regarding DB/ CM. How should I correct this....ask him for a job?
Also I dont "presume to explain things", I was just asking questions to try and get a balanced picture.
Maybe I should just accept that something is wrong because some else says so! I think not.

Sorry if I offended you with my "tedious" questions
LL

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 12:17 PM

Lancashire Lad,

it is becoming increasingly obvious that you are lying. At the outset you said you were not an apologist for DB, yet your every question is along the lines of "but isn't he really in the right?" and "isn't it really the case that the artists are unreasonable?" And "correct me if I'm wrong, but if Bulmer were really unfair, wouldn't he have gone out of business long since?" Yes, we know that no unfair businessperson has ever managed to remain in business. Good thinking, LL!

Then you protest that you know no inside information at all, yet the moment someone points you to READ THE THREAD(S) ON THIS TOPIC you begin to reveal facts that, if true, are obviously inside information about artists and their dealings with DB.

So either

1) the information is false and you are lying about it.

or

2) it is true and you are lying about knowing no inside information.

I incline to believe the latter (you know more than you claim, and are closer to the subject than you admit). Either way, it becomes clear that you ARE in fact an apologist for Dave Bulmer with some knowledge of his business affairs.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:10 PM

Oh dear me

I only know of the two re-issues because
A. I bought the CD from Michael Chapman at a gig
B. I asked one of the Houghton Weavers if they had plans to re-issue Howfen Wakes

All I did was point that that he must allow some artists access to their back catalogues (In answer to Susan saying he wont sell rights back).

I've read the threads and agree with many of the points made. The lack of accounting is a terrible thing and were I an artist, I wouldnt trust such a deal as far as I could throw it.

All I suggested was that MAYBE, he wasnt as black as painted and raised three points to see what the general concensus of opinion was. I also hoped not to get attacked and certainly not called a liar (which I am not).

It strikes me, that without the chance to speak openly and objectively there is little hope of an open discourse.

LL

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Dita
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:24 PM

"Bulmer received unexpected support from Dick Gaughan"

From Guest Lian's post above.

It is true that Dick recorded for, and worked with Dave Bulmer during the 80's and 90's.

Dick even worked on remastering some of the Leader /Trailer albums. He told me that some master tapes, including I think, his own, Nic Jones, and Tony Rose were in such poor condition, due to the way they had been stored, that remastering a mint record was a better choice.

Dick's convincing of Clan Alba to go with CM to release their double album, and the way it was marketed, (sold via CM outlets only, not available to high street stores), resulted in the breakup of the band and the fracturing of Dick and Brian McNeill's friendship, which was only resolved a couple of years ago.

It also resulted in Dick no longer associating with Bulmer.

You will notice that Dick now records for a different label.

John

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:27 PM

I believe Dick Gaughan was also unhappy about the way DB or CM were releasing the Trailer / Leader back catalogue too

LL

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 03:19 PM

LL, I apologize if I have jumped the gun. But really, no one ever said that DB is universally unfair to all artists, so your ability to find two people who were able to get rights from him is not evidence that he is "not as black as he is painted."

To use the most absurdly extreme comparison, Hitler had friends who thought he was a good fellow. (And before people jump on me, I am NOT saying DB is comparable to Hitler, except in the quality of having friends and associates who work well with him). To use less extreme examples, the same is true of John Gotti, Al Capone, and many famous criminals. This makes them no less criminal in their dealings with others.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Nerd
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:22 PM

LL,

by the way, I thought perhaps I did not understand what an apologist was. So I went to the OED, where it says that an apologist is one who apologizes, and "apologize" primarily means:

1. intr. To speak in, or serve as, justification, explanation, or palliation of a fault, failure, or anything that may cause dissatisfaction; to offer defensive arguments; to make excuses.

In other words, in offering defensive arguments for Mr. Bulmer, or in your words "suggest[ing] that MAYBE, he wasnt as black as painted" by raising three points in his defense, you are PRECISELY an apologist for him. I won't say you were lying when you claimed not to be, but you were at the very least mistaken.

Subject: RE: Celtic Music Dave Bulmer (6)
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 21 Feb 05 - 04:06 AM

Hi Nerd
Apology accepted.
Having read the above defination from the OED, maybe I am an apologist! However please, I repeat PLEASE, do NOT misconstrue that to mean I defend his business dealings. I DONT!!!!. My only reason to enter this thread was to ask the original questions. It still strikes me as perculiar that he can be a hate figure for many, whilst on the other hand, substantial movers and shakers at the business end of the folk scene, seem happy to deal with him. Perhaps its just a finance thing. Maybe we need someone from Topic Records (or similar labels) to join the conversation and explain their side of things.

Another thing has sprung to mind regarding DB / CM. We all know that he owns rights to many labels and therefore controls what gets re-released by an artist. Does he also own the publishing for this material? I know most trad material is in the public domain and not covered by copyright, but what about self written songs or trad / arr songs?

Cheers
LL