Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer

Subject: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:05 AM

Just finished listening to a most interesting programme about "Bright Phoebus" the record that Mike and Lal Waterson wrote and sang on in 1972.

Radio Four 1330 - "Lost Records" NO doubt it will be available on "listen again" but I suspect it is too early for that as I write.

Interesting in that Dave Bulmer appears on the programme too.

Personally speaking I found it(especially the stuff about Lal) extremely moving.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:11 AM

He was indeed. Though clearly not in the same studio as Mike Waterson.
I fell off my chair in disbelief as that South Shields accent came from the speakers.
What was very interesting (and disappointing) was the revelation from Bob Davenport of the terms of the original contract with Bill Leader that stipulated that if sales revenue from the original pressing of Bright Phoebus failed to reach £2,000 and cover production costs, no royalties would be payable in perpetuity.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:16 AM

Totally agree, one of the most moving doccos Ive ever heard. Mike's so obvious love for his sister had me reaching for the tissues.

As for Bulmer, well from what I heared he's more slippery than I could ever imagine.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Surreysinger
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:21 AM

Must admit that that's the first time I've actually heard his (ie Mr Bulmer's) voice ... and that item about royalties was extremely galling. But, although I have the LP, I haven't been able to listen to it in a very long time,as I now have now record player. I found that I had forgotten some of the stuff that was on it. Hearing it like that made me realise JUST how good it was - and it really doesn't seem to have dated at all. The programme will actually be repeated on Radio 4 on Saturday 12th May (afraid I haven't got the time of the broadcast to hand at the moment).

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:29 AM

Two minor points - I think it was sales of 2,000 records not £2,000.

And Countess is right - Mike and Bulmer were not in the same room!!!!!!Neither was Martin Carthy.

And just to show that you shouldn't believe everything you hear, pedantry makes me say that the version of Bright Phoebus at the end is not from the original record but from the "Blue Murder" version.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 09:42 AM

If it was 2,000 records rather than pounds, at 1972 prices that would have made it doubly difficult to qualify for royalty payments. Sorry, I was feeling a bit too stunned and outraged to listen properly.

By playing the Blue Murder version of Bright Phoebus some payment at least, however small, will be forthcoming.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:13 AM

I caught some of the programme also and one of the facts given was that of the 2,000 records pressed 1,000 were substandard and unplayable. It was Bill Leader as stated who drew up the original contracts and who produced the LP. It was Bill Leader who owned the stock of records and who gave the explanation of where half the pressings went. The debate starts with Bill Leader as far as I can see all Dave Bullmer has done is to buy a lot if not all Topic Records, Bill Leader's, bankrupt stock. Dave Bullmer around this time was driving round in an old car with one windscreen wiper that worked and with selotape holding his NHS Glasses together. I'm not suprised that Dave felt ease talking quiet openly about Bright Phoebus I don't think he has anything to hide.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:33 AM

all Dave Bullmer has done is to buy a lot if not all Topic Records

Good grief!

Actually, Bulmer bought TRAILER, and not from Bill.
The problem is that he owns the rights and will not relinquish them, nor will he organise a proper, above-board re-release, rather than a CD-R dubbed from the vinyl. That's why Martin Carthy (and not just him) says he is 'bewildered' that Bulmer won't do anything about it, or let someone else do it. And it's why Topic put out Shining Bright, re-recordings of the songs by different artists.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:52 AM

Bright Phoebus is on Trailer not Topic.

"Shining Bright" is on Topic currently being offered at £4.00 off. NB VAT on top of the price displayed....It comes thoroughly recommended by me.

http://www.topicrecords.co.uk/acatalog/WATERSON__LAL.html

With my folk vinyl dealer hat on, a second-hand copy of the original is about £35/£50.00 - if I had one which I don't!!

I sold one three years ago within seconds of it being out on the stall.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 12:07 PM

I can't stop shaking at the very thought of Bulmer buying up Topic.
There was a Bright Phoebus on eBay recently for £120.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 08 May 07 - 12:44 PM

The Saturday repeat last week was at 15.30, according to the website, so probably the same time this week. I think the 'Listen Again' should be available tomorrow. (I just caught the end of the programme, so I've already checked these out.)

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Cats
Date: 08 May 07 - 01:01 PM

In 2000 I heard Eliza sing Bright Phoebus as part of the fire show on the beach at Whitby Festival. I could have sworn it was Lal but knew it couldn't have been...or could it?

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 May 07 - 01:33 PM

Shining Bright can be downloaded from

http://www.emusic.com/



I know this cos I downloaded it a few weeks ago but I cant remember what I paid for it but I think you have to make an annual subscription which gives you a number of downloads per month.

Dave

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 01:49 PM

Many of the contracts might have challengeable features. But the sums of money involved would not justify the legal fees. Doesn't some potential claimant qualify for legal aid? I don't personally do legal aid, but there are still some who do. There used to be a music lawyer called Angel (might nave been Denis Angel, might have been some other name) who did...

Is any relevant person a member of the MU, and has an MU appeal for legal support been thought of?

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:16 PM

I don't know law, but i've signed a few contracts in my time and i'm as sure as I can be that Leader's rider re-sales and royalties is not legally enforceable.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:36 PM

Bright Phoebus is (and has been for several years) available on CD. CAMSCO carries it.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 02:50 PM

Dick Greenhaus: Bright Phoebus is 'available' (i.e. sneaked out) on CD-R dubbed from the vinyl without any promotion or publicity. This 'release' was not authorised by the artists and they receive no royalties.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:13 PM

Countess Richard-
As I have frequently said (in print), If any artist feels that royalties are owed on any CD I sell, I'll pay those royalties. Releases of previously recorded material don't (and never have) required authorization by the artist. And as far as I know, a producer who buys a label (such as Leader) isn't "sneaking" out anything. Neither is the producer required to promote nor publicize a release, though it's generally a good idea.
   It's certainly a CD-R, as are all the Leader/Dambuster/Croc etc./ releases. So what? They're not represented to be anything else, and prospective sales aren't large enough to warrant the expense of pressing.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: neardura
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:30 PM

This program is now on listen again.
I heard the tail end in the car and have just L/A.
A vwery interesting program

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:35 PM

Oh dear.

Dick G, have you not listened to what Mike Waterson had to say in the Lost Albums broadcast?
Did you not hear how emotional he was over his sister Lal?
Do you not ask yourself why Bulmer didn't promote this sneaky reissue of Bright Phoebus CD-R with appropriate publicity?
How much have you paid Mike Waterson (you can't have paid Lal because she is tragically dead)?
As for prospective sales 'not being large enough to warrant the expense of pressing', why doesn't Bulmer simply sell back the rights so that artists can prove this wrong?

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 04:46 PM

Dick, what you say is true in the USA, but that would mean the albums would not be capable of lawful supply to the UK, where what you say is not the law.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 May 07 - 04:48 PM

Correction - "might". There is an issue about the identity of what the amended 1988 Act calls "persons entitled to recording rights". Our masters in Brussels regrttably forced a reduction in protection for artists in the last round of EU-enforced amendments to the act. There is also a question of whether consents are contingent on implied restrictions.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 May 07 - 05:39 PM

To date, Mike Waterson hasn't asked me for any royalties. No, I haven't heard the program--is it available? I haven't noticed that the re-issue of Bright Phoebus was any sneakier, or any worse-publicized than any of the other Celtic Music releases. and I have no insight whatsoever into Mr. Bulmer's motives, for anything he does. I'm just grateful that the music is again available.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 08 May 07 - 05:45 PM

What Dave Bullmer Bought was the stock of unsold records when the record company was declared bankrupt. He bought what other people did not want at that time. If you want to put your hand in your pocket and make an offer to Dave Bullmer then do so with you're hard earned cash.

I don't know what axe you have to grind with Dave Bullmer, Countess Richard, you would seem to prefer that these, now valuable, records to have been melted down to make new ones. As in sold for scrap to pay the debts of those who declared them selves bankrupt.

If you had just bought a copy of Bright Phoebus for £35 to £50 would you suddenly be calling Dave Bullmer if he flooded the market with these records? Another question is how much should the vendors of these now highly collectable LP's feel obliged to pay the artist every time they change hands.

Oh and I noted yesterday that the once popular cassette tape is now to be fazed out. The popularity of homemade compilation tapes once had the record industry in a flap. So hands up if you have never copied an LP to tape ripping off the Artist and contributing to the number of bankrupted Record Labels.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:46 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/lostalbums/pip/ux1hf/

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:16 AM

Do I dare enter this can of worms?
Ah Well.

My feelings are this....

1. Bloke buys rights to loads of recordings. (all legal and above board)
2. Bloke then sits on them for 25 years, not making any money.
3. Bloke then watches many of the artists become incapacitated, or in the worst case scenario, dying.
4. Bloke refuses to enter partnership with said artists, to the mutual benifit of all.
5. Seems a bit silly to me.

As to the the bit about "No interest in the records"....
Well, why is there a programme about Bright Phoebus on BBC Radio4 this week?

In this programme, you say that there is no interest in this material. And, you have shed loads of vinyl that you can't get rid of...Huh?

Well sell them back to the artists. end of problem.

Free Reed have done some wonderful Box Sets of various artists over the last few years. Why sit on the marvellous collection that you have?

What is the point?

You make no money (Which I think you need), and the artists get nothing too. Who is the winner?

And the public are deprived of the best of that era of music.

I know this will get back to you Dave.
Do the deal... Please

Before it is too late.

And for Tony Rose and Lal Waterson it already is.

Ralph Jordan

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:22 AM

Ralphie, Thanks for joining in - I was hoping you would.

I am afraid your request though is s triumph of hope over experience.

Dick I shall see one Waterson or another over the next two weeks - so I shall mention that you are happy to pay them royalties.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:37 AM

Ah! Mr Eyre.

Thank you. Pass on my best wishes.
I'm like a dog with a bone on this one...
One day it will be resolved. Lets hope that there are still some of us alive to witness it.

Kind Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:43 AM

Make that "proper royalties" - there are three sets of rights involved: -

1. The copyright in the sound recording -
2. The copyright in the songs/tunes/arrangements -
3. The performers' rights (nowadays called "recording rights" - very confusing) under S. 180 to 190 CDPA, and the reproduction right and distribution right there mentioned. IMHO these are the ones the performers are best placed to recapture, since in general the consent of the artist to the doing of the protected act is a defence to the person doing the act, in general leaving a person who alleges he still owns exclusive rights to the exclusion of the artist to sue the artist in contract - a chain of title Mr B might find hard to establish and assert in court.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:59 AM

Richard.

I think the artists concerned would be happy to get a Fiver!!
They haven't seen much else!!

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 May 07 - 12:53 PM

I can only comment that Bulmer, while he may have been mean or despicable or short-sighted or whatever, doesn't seem to have done anything illegal. I'd have to see the original contracts (with Leader)before I could comment on them; I would like to point out that royalties are due only on copies that have been sold.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:48 PM

Dave Bulmer.
he is suppressing The New Mexborough English Concertina Quartet,second recording, that he acquired from Richard Digance[we trusted Richard Digance],and he passed on our recordings to Bulmer.[without consulting us]
He also owns the mastertape to Cheating the Tide,byDick Miles,and refused to sell me the mastertape.
Bulmrer is a complete bollox.Ihope he rots in hell.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 01:55 PM

Dick.

I have never said that Mr Bulmer had done anything illegal.
But, it gave me great pleasure to buy the first Nic Jones (Celtic Music CD-R) CD in a well known London store, and having handed over the money, taking it out of its jewel case and snapping it in two.
The assistant was obviously shocked, but, when I explained my actions (Whilst clearing up the debris!!). he understood why I had done it.

It's not about legality, but, morality.

God knows that there is little enough money in Folk Music, as you well know.

I'm not asking for Mr B to hand over willy nilly the tapes, but to strike a deal with all the artists, to everyones mutual benifit.

And just to mention that the first 2 Nic Jones retrospectives did very well indeed, and "Game, Set, Match" released on Topic last year (winning Nic a Lifetime acheivement award at the BBC Folk awards bash), the advance for which went to salvaging Nics knee, which was crumbling at the time.

This is selling very well. I'm assuming that CAMSCO is stocking it?

There are still the 4 lost Nic albums, not to mention Bandoggs, Oh and at least 200 other titles including the "Grey" albums. Will we ever hear them again?

As I said earlier, Too late for Tony Rose and Lal Waterson.

We over here in the UK would like to see an end to all of this.

It's not about money, it's about justice.

Kind regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 02:14 PM

Ah Dick, Old Mate.
Didn't realise that you were caught up in all this stuff too!
Never heard the second Mexborough album.....
Would be nice to hear the "Clan Alba" recording too.
The way it should be done is as follows.

When Dingles records went bust, I called Roger Holt (MD of said label), popped round to his place, gave him a bunch of money, and in return, got 50 vinyl copies of the first Crows LP, the master tapes and the multitracks!!

All done and dusted over a cup of tea. How civilised.

Haven't got round to re-issuing them yet, but I could if I wanted to, and the nice Mr Holt got a pile of dosh to do up his house..

Doesn't Mr B need a roof repairing????

Come on Dave.....SELL THEM BACK

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 09 May 07 - 03:32 PM

Oh well done by a CD in a shop and destroy it just the kind of customers retail stores want in their shops. I can see cooperate giant's thinking this is just one aggravation we can do with out. Don't order anymore "-Folk" CD's only inviting trouble stock up with easy listening. OK they sell eventually it may take 25 years but they do sell. What are you going to do next burn the Holy Bible because you don't like the printers?

Oh now you have loads of money to buy master tapes and copyrights well I've just done a recording. In your terms it should be a good bet for Dave Bullmer I drive too fast, smoke, drink, and eat fried food on the run. I'm over weight I don't like hassling for gigs so I'm unlikely to sell any albums myself but should I die or have a stroke in about 25 years time you will have the rights to put more money into producing my album. So come on lets do the deal put your money where your mouth is if you don't I'll be straight round to Dave Bullmer.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 May 07 - 05:29 PM

Ralphie-
FYI-I carry Penguin Eggs, Unearthed, In Search of, Game Set Match, Nic Jones (eponymous)and Ballads and Songs, as well as the Halliard songbook (with CD). I'd gladly carry the Banddogs recordings if I could get my hands on them. (also have Clan Alba)

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:01 PM

Ok, I may never get the chance to say this again but I lent my banjo to DB in 1972 and he seemed like such a nice guy in them days

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:26 PM

Message to Tyke...
What???
No comprende. Nice rant though.
Your name isn't Dave Bulmer by any chance?
My stupid (admittedly) destruction of said CD in that shop, made the people in charge look into where they were sourcing their records.
A quick look at the Musicians Union Website told them all they needed to know.

Ralph

Mr Greenhouse!!
Jolly good chap, keep on selling them.
Maybe the Bandoggs stuff might appear sometime.
It must be very frustrating for all you guys over the pond....
Don't worry, we are working on the other bits.
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 09 May 07 - 06:36 PM

Mr Greenhaus (Woops spelt your name wrong last time)
No probs with the titles you are selling, apart from Clan Alba and the first 2 NJ records. (No royalties to the artists, same old crap)
If only we could get the rights to the original recordings, how many 5 CD boxed sets of Nic Jones could you sell in the US??
Just interested
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: SylviaN
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:38 PM

Just listened to the replay of the "Lost Albums" programme, which brought back many wonderful memories. I'm lucky to be one of those that bought one of the 1000 good copies of Bright Phoebus. It is one of my favourite albums, and always will be.

I'm adding my voice to Ralphie's, hoping that this does reach Bulmer.

Dave, some of my memories of the time leading up to the original release of Bright Phoebus were of the great folk scene in Leeds, including the University folk club that you ran. A great club that sponsored and nurtured an atmosphere where we could perform and learn about folk music (and, in the student's union, the beer was cheap). In those days, I considered you a friend.

Of course, we were younger, innocent, naive perhaps, but less hardened and life was still full the promise of good things to come. Then I moved away from Leeds. Since then, we met only the once, at Redcar Folk Festival in 1990 when I returned from living in Spain, remember.

Life doesn't always turn out as we expect or hope. It still bewilders me that you have managed to anger so many people, some of them are friends of mine today. I can't see how what they are asking would mean any kind of financial disaster for you, hence my bewilderment. As Ralphie says, what is wanted is something to "everyone's mutual benefit".

Please get this sorted, get involved with some open and honest discussions. I've always thought that generosity, whether financial or of spirit, makes good business sense. Under other circumstances, I would have bought a Bright Phoebus CD for myself, and several more to give away to friends. As things stand at the moment, I can't.

Sylvia

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 May 07 - 07:51 PM

Ralphie-
To answer your question...probably a couple of dozen.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 May 07 - 03:27 AM

Dick G. Thanks for that.
Not bad considering I don't think Nic ever toured the US.
And anyway, The CDs could always be sold separately as well.
Wouldn't hold your breath though, this one is going to run and run!!
Have even thought of a name for the new label "Lost Leader" !!

Sylvia.
Thanks for your kind and considered input to this debate. I have never understood why Dave refuses to negotiate. To get back to the programme on Phoebus, it was palpably obvious that emotions were running high amongst some of the contributors.
God knows it's hard enough to make a living in this game, and to be denied access to work done in an earlier era, when most of us weren't savvy enough to sign the right contract is pretty galling.
And even more puzzling is that Dave B isn't earning anything either!!

Who's winning??? No One.
It all seems so pointless, But, I'm not giving up hope.
I have to continue if only for the memories of Tony and Lal.

Kind regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:00 AM

I listened to the programme last night. It was disappointing that DB wasn't asked to explain his position. All he said was that the artists on "Bright Phoebus" weren't entitled to royalties under the terms of the original contract, and that folk albums don't make any money anyway.

Quite apart from the financial considerations for the artists involved, DB is sitting on a significant part of the folk revival's heritage, including a number of seminal albums. He could have been seen as a hero and saviour for preserving these, instead he is widely vilified and his reputation is zero. And as Ralphie has pointed out, no-one is making any money out of it. It baffles me that a situation where everyone loses could so easily be changed to one where everyone benefits.

At the very least, it would be helpful to understand DB's reasons for his behaviour.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:12 AM

Howard.
Thank You for your words


I just can't understand his Modus Operandi.

And, if he chose to, he could still be seen as a hero. (Having preserved all this music for so many years, after all Neil Wayne, Free Reed records has done it successfully, and produced some marvellous boxed sets of various people)
I have no hatred for Mr B, and would love to shake his hand. All he has to do is give the music back to the artists, and make everyone a small amount of money.
Come on Dave, do the deal!!

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Bystander
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:36 AM

"At the very least, it would be helpful to understand DB's reasons for his behaviour."

I'm not sure if I should chip in here, but I do know people who have talked to DB about this subject.

My best understanding is that he is a) a hoarder and b) has what he thinks is a business head. Business heads are only interested in doing business which will return what they feel is a realistic percentage - it's almost a matter of pride to them. DB, I understand, feels that the margins made by artists and record companies on CDs sold through conventional outlets is too small for the game to justify the candle. He was a 'plugger' in years gone by, dealing with high street stores, so remembers the good old days. I understand he thinks CDs are dead in the water. So unless and until he can see a sum that adds up to something 'worth his while,' the hoarder part of him is content to wait.

Now if this is true - and as I say it's hearsay - it explains why he takes no action, and when challenged digs in his heels and resorts to his legal position (which may or may not be watertight). He seems, I repeat seems, to be genuinely perplexed as to why so many people feel he's in the wrong.

I think a bunker mentality kicked in many years ago, and now he is missing some really important points - but then he's out of the mainstream and not many would dare try to advise him.

Anyone who did might say:

1) This material has value that is not financial - and he could gain in other ways if he made it properly available by one means or another - as would we all. (But again this is something all business heads have trouble understanding).

2) Margins on CDs sold at gigs return a much better profit than those sold in shops through a distrubutor. Small runs of 500 glass mastered bar-coded shrink-wrapped CDs can be very lucrative. The artists concerned COULD make a release pay, so if they are willing and able to buy back the rights and the masters, both parties could benefit financially. But the price would have to be right, and DB may still be thinking in terms of the old days, and the old figures.

3) CDs sold through the web rather than through shops make a much better profit. Many artists no longer bother with shops and DB could do the same. There are plenty of good on-line outlets which operate much smaller margins than shops and there is no distribution percentage.

4) However we no longer have to rely on CDs for the distribution of music. iTunes and others could make money, again, for both parties, at almost zero cost to him (assuming he can make digital copies of the archive). I'm not sure DB is fully aware of all this new technology, but if he isn't there are plenty of people nearby who are, and could help - and not at a huge cost either.

Perhaps Tyke or another of his chums might have a friendly word next time he bumbs into Dave.

(and if you read this Dave and work out who I am, I'm actually trying to help here, ok)?

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 May 07 - 07:29 AM

Woops.
In my excitement, hit the wrong button!

Hi Bystander.
Great post.
I'm sure that you are right when you say that DB is a hoarder. Nothing wrong with that. After all I've hoarded all the Peel and Kershaw sessions (and many others) that I was delighted to have recorded over the last 30 years.
Maybe you (whoever you are!) or Tyke, or someone should have a quiet word.
All I've ever wanted was justice for the artists, living or dead.

Thank You

Ralphie

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 May 07 - 07:39 AM

Bystander.
Just another thought.

Tony Rose could have sold lots of CDs at gigs, not a possibility now, sadly.
How many more artists have to shuffle off this mortal coil before their work is heard ??

Ralph

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,buspassed
Date: 10 May 07 - 08:59 AM

The fact that Bulmer claimed on the programme to have the residual original vinyl pressings without mentioning their considerable value in today's 'collectable' market indicates to me that a meanness of spirit is overcoming any business thinking.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: GUEST,john bell, yorkshire.
Date: 10 May 07 - 06:51 PM

Regardless of mountains of vinly pressings Mr Bulmer is sitting on, I think you will find that his ownership of Pat Cooksey's The Sick Note is nowadays his biggest earner, any defence that Tyke and his mates may summon up cannot condone the theft of money due to Pat over a long period of years, many collection agencies, MCPS, GEMA,
ASCAP, to name but a few refuse to pay royalties to Bulmers company from this song nowadays but are holding the money untill the courts
decide otherwise.

Subject: RE: Bright Phoebus/Watersons/Bulmer
From: Tyke
Date: 10 May 07 - 08:49 PM

My Name is Not Dave Bullmer it's George Clarke I tell you that so that you know that I will not be intimidated and or Bullied by any one. So if you want to slander or infer slander have the bottle to put your name to it. Write to Dave Bullmer giving your Name and address I'm sure a proper reply to any insinuations or questions will be arriving in the mail. Oh and if you come onto the Mudcat as a Guest you are just that a Guest. I don't think any of the Mudcat Membership would wish to prevent Guests from obtaining information but we are all aware that some of the submissions from Guests are at best a waste space or the Guest has a hidden agenda.

Again who wrote out the original contract for Bright Phoebus? Answer Bill Leader
What were the terms of the contract that they signed? Answer as stated on the programme.

What was Dave Bullmer's occupation at the time of the recording of this record? Answer a student at Leeds University subsidising his income by selling records.

Should anyone sign a contract with Dave Bullmer? Answer not without reading it and consulting a lawyer then as a member of the Musicians Union asking there advise.

Should anyone sign a contract with anyone? Answer not without reading it and consulting a lawyer then as a member of the Musicians Union asking there advise.

Would I sign a contract with anyone including Dave Bullmer? Answer not without reading it and consulting a lawyer then as a member of the Musicians Union asking there advise.

This thread is about a BBC radio programme about a lost Album Bright Phoebus which in fact is not lost It is available in the shops or via Dave Bullmer. It seems to me that Dave has managed to struggle through the hard times that you all seem to have forgotten about the miners strikes the Thatcher Years the time when unemployment and bankruptcies were sky high.

No one here is claiming that they never copied an Album; I've asked that question no takers, so stop pointing your finger at people who bought what you did not want to buy. If you bought a house in the year 2000 for £40000 that you can now sell for £140000 plus do you think you have a morale obligation to give the previous owner more money? Answer no of course not.

Here's another question you can answer how many people here prefer not to pay to see a Guest at a Club or at Festival Concert and would rather go to a free sing around
Where you can here or sing the songs that you obtained from those bootlegged tapes?