BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 11:52 AM

This is getting good. I reckon if we stick around someone not a million miles away from here is going to implode.

How is it shambles can post with wit and eloquence, while his detractors have to shout in capslock and spew bile?

The bouncers are in need of a battery cahnge.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 11:35 AM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.........

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: JennyO
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 11:10 AM

I am glad it makes you happy

And I'm glad that you're glad that it makes me happy. After all, as you have pointed out many times -

THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 10:38 AM

You may have missed the following editing comment as it was inserted into an existing post and did not refresh this thread.

Nope. Until Max pulls the plug on him, Shambles gets his one complaint thread to express what's important to him. If it gets out of hand, I'll close it and he can start another thread.
But if I close this one now, Shambles will just start another thread, and another after that, and another. I have no desire to do battle with him. I wish people would ignore him so maybe be'd be talking to a wall and get bored and talk about something else, or go away.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 09:19 AM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.........

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 08:03 AM

THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS
If I can't get it or deliver it, there is no point, and POOF it's gone.

Keep it light, take it easy, relax, enjoy your stay, and just be happy.
Max

I would like to suggest that the above words of Max be copied as an automatic response from our 'moderators' to any complaint or judgement made by one poster about the posting of another?

And that The Mudcat Help and Trouble Forum is confined to dealing only with requests for corrections to a posters own contributions?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 07:29 AM

I knew a guy who couldn't be blackmailed because the kinds of things that embarrassed other people, he bragged about.

Thanks for that gem Ebbie. The fact that you would not see the irony and humour of you posting such a thing at this point - does explain a lot. But why would you wish to blackmail the guy you refer to or anyone else?

Just where is the moral-high ground supposed to in this example? And do you see yourself as one of the attempted blackmailers - or the potential victim? It seems to me that there is little credit to be had for either side in your senario.

Do you judge that the attempted blackmail of someone - really something for the would-be criminals involved in the attempted blackmail to bragg about then? Or that this attempt then entitles the criminals to pass judgement on their victim?

My only 'crime' on our forum is to try and post my honest views when many others try to find noble-sounding reasons to justify their various attempts to prevent this. Where as I don't see this as anything for me to bragg about - I certainly don't see it as anything I could be blackmailed for. Or anything that I should be intimidated for.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 07:05 AM

Choose your battles carefully, before it is too late.

Two words to take issue with - 'Choose' and 'battles'. And I am also not sure what you mean by 'too late'?

It has never been my choice to battle at all.

All I try and do is post my views. Others appear be encouraged to see it as a battle to be joined in order prevent this (in many and ingenious fun ways).

Are you suggesting that I must change my views as a result?

And change them not because I have seen any argument that has persuaded me to change my views - but simply because of attempts to bully?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 06:53 AM

Which just goes to show that this is not considered to be a serious discussion. I suspect that many here view this thread merely as a form of entertainment - I know I do.

I am glad it makes you happy. You are of course welcome to make that judgement (as long as you always accepted that others may not agree with it) and unlike me, in anyt thread you wish to. But perhaps posting to this thread only to express it, to talk about recipes or as the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has done - to claim the 1000th post - could be descibed a 'hi-jacking' the thread.

Or it would be if - if our 'moderators' were scratching around for some excuse to justify some form of imposed censorship - in order to prevent our forum from reading views and taking part in discussions that they would rather perfer our forum didn't.

This is certainly a thread containing a serious discussion on this subject as far as I am concerned - as it it the ONLY THREAD I AM PERMITTED TO DO SO. That is serious enough as far as I am concerned. And I remain very concerned.

Perhaps you could at least respect that, when making your judgement of whether this is is a thread containing a serious discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: JennyO
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 01:40 AM

Shambles, just to quote Joe again, with my emphasis in bold:

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Joe Offer - PM
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:28 AM

Well, I can't log in, either, so I don't have access to proof one way or another. Generally, the 100th/200th claims are a no-no in music threads and in many serious discussions. People have come to think of them as obnoxious. I don't know why, but that's what they think.
I don't bother with them, but they're fair game for the Clones.
-Joe Offer-

Which just goes to show that this is not considered to be a serious discussion. I suspect that many here view this thread merely as a form of entertainment - I know I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 14 Oct 06 - 12:07 AM

" And when it is obvious that it is a case of City Hall picking their battles - and choosing you? "

It means that you won't win! Pretty simple to figure that one out.

Choose your battles carefully, before it is too late.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 09:51 PM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.........

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 09:04 PM

"And here is a bit more of that same quote that my friend Mick left out.

Joe: Do I need to separate you two? " the sham

I knew a guy who couldn't be blackmailed because the kinds of things that embarrassed other people, he bragged about.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:57 PM

It's his karma. The queen will be along to delete this really soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Blowzabella
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:36 PM

Now Mick - you've told us off often enough - don't fall into the same trap. Just put the keyboard down and walk away....good man

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:28 PM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.........

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:23 PM

The goal is elimination
Of all duplication
Can't you get this into your brain?
I'll make sure that you will
Finally swallow this pill
As I will say it again and again

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:20 PM

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.........

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:16 PM

If you can't convince the host to make changes after all this time - it probably won't happen.

This may have been a small change - but it shows that posters making the attempt is not the totally futile exercise that many on our forum may have come to think it is.

Perhaps it may encourage other posters to try - and give the lie to the idea that any changes on our forum are now confined to only those that the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team is in favour of.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:04 PM

"I am happy to have played some part in bringing about this welcome change on our forum"

That would have sounded better if you'd said 'some SMALL part'. Keriste, Shambles, in the confluence of issues and problems, do you seriously think this is all that important? I have been one of your ardent supporters with regard to some aspects of your complaints. Getting Joe Offer to post 1000 in big letters didn't rank right up there if you catch my drift. Look up the term 'Pyrrhic victory'.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 06:01 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Joe Offer - PM
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 11:28 AM

Well, I can't log in, either, so I don't have access to proof one way or another. Generally, the 100th/200th claims are a no-no in music threads and in many serious discussions. People have come to think of them as obnoxious. I don't know why, but that's what they think.
I don't bother with them, but they're fair game for the Clones.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:55 PM

THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS
If I can't get it or deliver it, there is no point, and POOF it's gone.

Keep it light, take it easy, relax, enjoy your stay, and just be happy.
Max


It used to make some posters happy to post only to claim 100th posts.

It used to make (some of) our 'moderators' happy to delete these posts.

And it used to make the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing team happy, to let them.

It did not tend to make those who were happy to post them - very happy to see their claims deleted.

Happily this has now changed.

Now it seems to make him happy to post such claims himself.

I am happy to have played some part in bringing about this welcome change on our forum and to enable all this happiness. It is small thing - but an encouraging start.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:50 PM

Oh no, you volunteered. Over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:48 PM

I KNEW we'd reach one thousand before I left the office today. But truth be known I've got my eyes set on 5,000.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:47 PM

I know, Mick. It was cheap and tawdry, and I'm ashamed of myself.
[grin]
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:42 PM

Sometimes you can't fight City Hall. Sometimes you need to pick your battles. It doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you smart.

And when it is obvious that it is a case of City Hall picking their battles - and choosing you?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:41 PM

You piss me off, Offer. I have never claimed one of the 100 or 1000 posts. After all these years, you just couldn't let me have one, could you? LOL.

Got any good recipes?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:37 PM

1000!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:37 PM

999

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:37 PM

998

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:33 PM

And here is a bit more of that same quote that my friend Mick left out.

Joe: Do I need to separate you two?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 05:22 PM

Please note that the quote from Max that Shambles uses is from the year 2000. Here is a more current quote:

Subject: From Max: State of the Union Address
From: Max - PM
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:43 PM

I've got to tell you, I'm sick and tired of some of the crap that I've seen lately.........

Shambles: I just don't care anymore. You press your point, time after time, until you press too far and then complain about the check. You do this purposefully to prove a point, but in the end, you are a distraction from the real point of this site. You too, should bid farewell.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:42 PM

It's karma, man, karma.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:23 PM

"If I can't get it or deliver it, there is no point, and POOF it's gone.
Keep it light, take it easy, relax, enjoy your stay, and just be happy."

Sometimes you can't fight City Hall. Sometimes you need to pick your battles. It doesn't make you wrong, it just makes you smart.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: MMario
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:21 PM

Okay - I am still trying to understand this:

You have said you do not wish to tell Max how to run his site.

You have said that you understand that the forum is part of Max's site.

The moderators are delegated by Max to do the day to day running of the site; (which you have said you don't want to tell Max how to do)

So why do you want to discuss changing things if you don't want to tell Max how to run things, when they are doing what Max has requested of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:12 PM

Good words. I have not noticed those last two sentences before. They speak volumes.

Yes good words indeed - there are many more such good words from Max.
Sadly not everyone now seems to see it that way.

Yes, I think you may well be first on the list, my friend. It's time for you either to shut up, or to use a name and take responsibility for what you have to say. If you continue to refuse to use a name, you will be come a non-person around here, and every single message you post will be deleted.
Free speech is fine, but you're just a pain in the ass.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:04 PM

"THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS
If I can't get it or deliver it, there is no point, and POOF it's gone.
Keep it light, take it easy, relax, enjoy your stay, and just be happy."

Good words. I have not noticed those last two sentences before. They speak volumes.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 04:01 PM

[PM] Max Max's Thought for the Day - Aug 7, 2000 (43) A Rant (Pondering Aloud) 07 Aug 00

Max's Mudcat Job Description: To make sure the Mudcat works, technically. To continue to upgrade and enhance to compensate for increased volume. To add and edit features to make the Mudcat more usable and just plain better. To work with those who support the Mudcat and provide a resource to Mudcat users and the folk world in general such as Folk Legacy and Camsco Records. To help users with technical problems and login issues.

Do you see what is missing? Well it's not missing at all.
I AM NOT A THERAPIST. I AM NOT A BABYSITTER. I AM NOT A PROFESIONAL MODERATOR. I DON'T SETTLE ARGUMENTS. I DON'T CARE.

I created a Web site, a discussion forum, a community about and for music. This is what I do care about. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy and am proud of the personal nature of our little forum here. I don't mean to discourage such activity, I hope it continues. However, I am not Dad in the front seat of the car trying to settle a dispute between the children in the back seat.

I remember during the Congressional hearings about Clinton and Lewinski each Congress Person had a chance to address the Congress with a statement. One of our Congress Women used her allotted time to talk about her grandchildren. You see, everything said in the Congress is a permanent historical record. So in protest of the insane and pointless use of our powerful government's resources, she used the time, she used her reserved little spot in American History, to say Hi to her grandchildren and their grandchildren and so on.
I also believe that the Mudcat is a historical record, and I am equally certain that it will last forever. A record of Song and Story and Life. A record of me, a record of us. A record that will exist forever. One that our grandchildren will see, and their grandchildren.

My thoughts and feelings and silliness and actions are all on display here. for good. When I post a message, I might stop and think that about that. Good ol' Tom Jefferson always believed that you should judge your every action as if the whole world was watching. Well they are folks. and they will be forever.
The first reason for everything I do is always the same.
THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS
If I can't get it or deliver it, there is no point, and POOF it's gone.

Keep it light, take it easy, relax, enjoy your stay, and just be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:50 PM

On to Venus

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:25 PM

And what's wrong with Mars ??

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:25 PM

YES!!!! ON TO VENUS! By God, I feel new energy pouring into my veins...

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:21 PM

See, Little Hawk, that's just the kind of defeatist thinking I deplore. Mudcat's owner has not appeared to change his mind on the matter so it might behoove us to carry on toward the goal? (OK, everybody, on your feet. On to Venus!)

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:04 PM

Here's a heady idea. While we're at it, let's all put together a project to land on Venus! Yeah. I think that the membership and management of this here forum needs an objective they can really sink their teeth into, and this thread just doesn't do it. Not a big enough deal. We need a whole new and compelling reason to turn on the computer in the morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 03:01 PM

That would require exercising some force of will! It would also take up a bit of time and EFFORT. And...and...being organized enough to make that effort effective too, eh? Geez. Whaddya want?

Like I said, you gotta be kidding.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 02:59 PM

The host clearly doesn't care enough to do anything about it...and I believe that would accurately describe the attitude of most of the membership as well. ;-)

I mean, bitching about it all the time is one thing...but actually DOING something about it?????????????????????

You GOTTA be kidding, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 02:38 PM

Didn't Orwell write that the other way around?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 02:29 PM

Two legs good, four legs bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 02:26 PM

No sense covering the same old ground, so I won't repeat myself. I've already addressed your points.   

The bottom line is - you have repeated your case numerous times and the host is not budging. You are either being played for a fool by the powers that be, or they just aren't understanding you.

I guess there is also a third possiblity, the host doesn't care - yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 02:12 PM

Ron - Our bouncers are simply posters like you and I (except the masked ones) who were encouraged to have a say in the way our forum appears. All posters to our forum were encouraged to see and support our forum in a similar way – even if they were not all favoured with edit buttons..

Rather like the pigs in George Orwell's Animal Farm - posession of this edit button seems to lead them to now consider themselves to be more equal than others.

It is not a question of our host making changes or not. I question why any 'moderator' who is not seen to be committed to supporting our host's continuing open invitation for the public's contributions and making this work - would now wish to continue.

For there must be some question if they can be seen by our forum to be making their best efforts for our forum. It may be thought that those who openly call for a change to memebers only posting may have an agenda of their own.

I suspect that if our host considers this to be a minority concern on our forum - he may well see no good reason to make any changes. But it is difficult for anyone to tell if this is really the case. As any poster who is seen to post anything but uncritical support of our 'moderators' - is considered to making a personal judgement of the individuals concerned (even the anonymous ones).

Again you tend to support the principle of 'moderation' as an immovable 'done-deal' - whatever its effects - when my concern is more with measuring the effectiveness or the counter-productive results of this particular brand of 'moderation'.

It seems that where there may be choice between obtain the same result through its imposition and other methods - the former will always be the preferred option – whatever the reaction. As think the following example demonstrates.

Please combine threads?.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: jeffp
Date: 13 Oct 06 - 01:51 PM

Actually, they are not the bouncers' rules. They are the owner's rules. The bouncers just enforce them.