BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:48 AM

Does your remark about the bathwater mean you accept it's ok for moderators to delete spam?

If you actually read my posts - you will see that my problem is NOT with our moderators deleting spam or with spam being deleted from our forum automatically.

I do have a problem when having removed the spam - entire threads are then closed by our 'moderators - because of the possiblity some more spam MAY appear in it. To me that does not seem to be very sensible, proportionate nor to be showing much respect to the poster's invited contributions to that thread.....Does it to you?

If any should appear - then delete JUST the spam - do allow our 'moderators' to be seen to use it as yet another excuse to close yet another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:31 AM

perhaps the host is silent because he wants to spare himself "making the same suggestion when it appears that it is falling on deaf ears"?

Does your remark about the bathwater mean you accept it's ok for moderators to delete spam?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:27 AM

And the walls...

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 05:25 AM

The silence of the host, and the repeated examples that continue to occur serve to make your point. Why bother to continue making the same suggestion when it appears that it is falling on deaf ears, and you end up becoming the victim of scorn because of your persistence?

When you are encouraged by the example currently set - to post publicly ONLY to judge the worth of and to call other posters names - this will always say far more about you and your shortcomings than it does about the object of your scorn.

But it has always appeared to me that our forum's host has provided just about everything that all of their invited guests could require. For those who think that a good party is making personal judgements about and jokes at the expense of certain of their fellow guests - to other guests - Max has even provided personal messages where this can be done without inflicting it on our forum as an example of public posting behaviour to be followed.

The bottom line is - would any host who effectivly invites the whole world to their party - really expect everyone to be of a like-mind?

I strongly feel that it is up to any guest who appreciates Max's invitation to freely express their views - NOT to be seen to support (even by their silence) any unfair attempts to deny to other posters - what they themselves accept as a right. No matter how these attempts may be disguised and justified.

That does not of course mean that our host has to have to live with any old shit posted up on their walls. Our host has every right to throw away the foul-smelling bath water by all means - but please take care to leave the babies behind?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Oct 06 - 04:04 AM

Others (including myself at times, and I apologize) have either goaded you into needless argueing or taken an opportunity to swipe at you, and it has sidetracked and clouded the whole discussion.

Bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 10:21 PM

Just don't say anything at all that is not ass-kissing about the queen bee or your posts will be deleted.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 10:07 PM

"With all due respect - perhaps you will accept that 'the problem' is not me or any other individual poster - no matter what posters may be currently encouraged to accept. Perhaps we can now go back to discussing the issue of closed threads and deleted posts?"

I agree with you 100% on that!! Shambles, I think you have eloquently stated your case and as I said earlier in this discussion, it took me awhile to understand your points.   While I don't agree with everything you say, I do think you have the right to say it (unless the host shuts down the party!). Others (including myself at times, and I apologize) have either goaded you into needless argueing or taken an opportunity to swipe at you, and it has sidetracked and clouded the whole discussion.

However, because the owners of this site seem to condone the behavior of the guests and bouncers, this argument will never reach a conclusion. We are just using this thread as an excuse to spout off whatever we wish, seemingly without reprecussion.   None of us have anything to complain about as we are doing what we wish.

I wish you success in your endeavour.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:35 PM

But-on second thought-there have been some name calling posts that may have made some individuals feel miserable.

I don't count Shamble's posts among those miserable posts.

Well one hopefully final comment from me for a while. We all vary but personally I find polite round about methods like".

"which others might consider not to be truthful"

can be more offensive than

"I believe he's a fu**ing liar".

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:24 PM

I've been delighted after reading some posts on this forum.

I've felt energized after reading some posts on this forum.

I've been angry after reading posts on this forum.

I've been sad after reading post on this forum.

But miserable? Naw.

Of course, different strokes for different folks.

I guess some people could say that when I felt happy, energized, angry, sad etc after reading certain post on this forum, I gave people the power to influence my mood. But even when I felt sad at some of the Mudcat goings on, I didn't feel miserable.

But-on second thought-there have been some name calling posts that may have made some individuals feel miserable.

I don't count Shamble's posts among those miserable posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:18 PM

Yep, skipy. I will try to go back to just reading yet again...

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Azizi
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:14 PM

"...the ONLY way that Shambles can make you { or anyone else } miserable is if you give him the power to do so by reading his posts. So........."
-Wesley S


Just because a person reads a post by Shambles, he or she becomes miserable??!

In my opinion, if a person becomes miserable after reading a post of this forum [or any other forum] that is written by Shambles [or any other person], then the problem is that person's and not the person who wrote the text.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: skipy
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 06:06 PM

Back off children, back off now! His objective is to take this through the "K". Don't help him, he can post and post and post but let him do this alone.
He can come back to the fold when he wishes to, but don't help him to do this. He is running rings around you for his pleasure. He repeats, you repeat, stop now.
Skipy (his next target)

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 05:00 PM

If the powers that be have not shown an indication to change, it won't happen. It is no longer a question of right or wrong, because the only person that has the "right" answer is the host - who will do as they please.

Ron - your view is a reasonable one for a poster who has found our forum in the state of evolution that you have. But if you look back at Max's public statements - you will not see the 'take-it-or-leave attitude to the wishes of our forum's posters - that you quite reasonably express.

Again it must be pretty obvious that our 'moderators' next step - of members only posters - being allowed to post only what the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has first personally vetted and approved of, before he allows it on to our forum - is not very much to my liking. And that I (and others posters) would have been very unlikely to be attracted by a forum containing all this anonymous interference, restriction and judgement. So it must be pretty obvious that our forum - that I and others posters found on Max's site - was a rather different one to the one posters see now (and largely accept as it always being).

What you refer to as the 'powers that be' were then only my fellow posters - not as you now see - my judge, jury and lynching party.

Again, I am not knocking your opinion nor do am I attacking you - I do see your points more clearly, but it is obvious that the powers that be aren't going to change.   Could you expain to our forum why you continue?

Things change - and it is right that they do - but my view is that there is never any need to be seen to carelessly throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I just try post my views to encourage and take part in discussion - as I always have and I will always try to. In the process of this debate, there is the hope that a little bit more of our precious freedoms - will not be as thoughtlessly curtailed as they might have been. There is some evidence to support this view.

Ron - that is the simple answer to your question. Perhaps the question you need to be asking is why it is thought necessary to make such a fuss in order to try to encourage so many different ways to prevent me and other posters from continuing?

With all due respect - perhaps you will accept that 'the problem' is not me or any other individual poster - no matter what posters may be currently encouraged to accept. Perhaps we can now go back to discussing the issue of closed threads and deleted posts?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:08 PM

Guest, I was referring more to Shambles suggestion that deletions and closures are often based on personal choice, and I do think that is fair to say.

Again Ron, this is something that has been hammered out time and time again...

I wouldn't use the wording "personal choice" but I don't think anyone disputes that many decisions are based on "personal judgement" and can not be taken by rules that are written in stone. I also would doubt you will find many who at least in thier own opinion believe that on occasions a wrong decision has been made.

I do not know exactly how things work now but when I was a clone here, there was a structure and the clones only used powers of deletion in very limited circumstances (eg. a duplicated post, perhaps blatant spam , etc. - things where there was no question).

Anything further was dealt by Joe and Jeff, and "in consultation" with Max.

There also was, and I believe still is, a clear complaints procedure where one takes a matter to Joe Offer first and then onto Max.

Things might have changed a little from there but is my belief that a structure and chain of command still exists and that ultimately the "judgement calls" are in fact done under what I will call "Max's editorial guidelines".

By contrast, shambles' "mudcat view" appears to be based on Joe Offer sort of taking control and not acting in accordance with any "editorial guidelines". It is a situation that I do not believe exits.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:38 PM

Guest, I was referring more to Shambles suggestion that deletions and closures are often based on personal choice, and I do think that is fair to say.   I also agree with you that no site owner would willingly leave certain posts up, which is where there seems to be some issues.

No one is going to agree with every reason. No one is going to like every posting. My take is that everyone should make their point and then get on with life. If the powers that be have not shown an indication to change, it won't happen. It is no longer a question of right or wrong, because the only person that has the "right" answer is the host - who will do as they please.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 03:17 PM

I think Shambles made some good points in his last post

Not really, Ron. His points were based

a) on the false premise that closures and deletions are believed to be a "cure all". This is something that has been pointed out to him on numerous occasions but he continues to use it to make his points.

b) apparently under the belief that user prefererence is the only factor.

I know of no site owner who would willingly, at his own expense, advertise irrelevant material which is often dubious in content for an unknown 3rd party. I also know of no site owner who would wish to encourage such "advertisers" by allowing the material to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 02:03 PM

I would prefer to read and contribute to the Dubliners thread - and ignore any spam - than not to be able to read, contribute or refresh the thread at all. Which is now the case - what next?

What we do know is this:


Subject: RE: Tech: Error 503 Service Unavailable
From: Max
Date: 27 Sep 06 - 09:26 PM
[snip]

2. Spam is increasing. We get hammered every day with thousands upon thousands of attacks from people and worms and spiders trying to use our site for nothing we want. We usually have more manpower to deal with it, but:

3. We're down a very key member of our staff due to an ongoing family emergency. Our planned upgrade for the 10th anniversary includes a great deal of behind the scenes defense systems, but is delayed due to this issue that I will talk more about pretty soon.
[...]

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 01:53 PM

" He knows that he won't change anything but he likes the attention that he is getting. The fact that so many people respond to him both postively and negatively charges his battery"

Guest - I think the two sentence that I copied above speak volumes. Are all of us being a bit hypocritical?   The "anti-Shambles" posts are doing the exact same thing that they are accusing Shambles of - you won't change anything but you like the attention. The fact that he responds charges the batteries of the posters. We are all the same when you get right down to it. There is no difference.

I honestly would love to hear Shambles response to my question instead of everyone else putting their words in first.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 01:49 PM

Jon - it surely depends on what that action and its effect is. I suggest that closing threads and deleting things is not the cure-all answer to every problem on our forum

shambles, the idea that is considered to be a "cure all" is aomething that I believe only exists in your mind.

While deletions may still be needed, the answer (if there really is one) to spam in the longer term is likely to focus more on improving defences in order to prevent as much as practical getting as far as appearing on the forum. In the meanwhile, the mods just have to do thier best with the limited tools they have.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 01:48 PM

Guest - the ONLY way that Shambles can make you { or anyone else } miserable is if you give him the power to do so by reading his posts. So.........

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 01:33 PM

Ron,

Shambles just enjoys being argumentative. He knows that he won't change anything but he likes the attention that he is getting. The fact that so many people respond to him both postively and negatively charges his battery. If everyone would just stop responding, like we did about a month ago, there wouldn't be much left for him to say. Read 10 posts from Shambles. They are all basicly the same.

Perhaps it is time to end this thread once and for all and, if Max so desires, finally send Shambles into cyberspace with Martin Gibson. He really is annoying the hell out of too many people. There isn't any site that I know of that is unmoderated and that doesn't do selective editing. Moderators have the right to do WHATEVER THEY WANT. If the site owner, Max, doesn't like what they do he can replace them. If a poster doesn't like what they do he can go post somewhere else.

Sambles, stop making everyone miserable with your constant bellyaching. You said you piece, no one cares to do it your way so stop!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 01:15 PM

I think Shambles made some good points in his last post and the 2000 note.

Can I ask one question Shambles? (no, that was not the one question!) After repeatedly making your point well known, and realizing that you are powerless to change the minds of the "hosts" of this party - what drives you to keep making your point?    The silence of the host, and the repeated examples that continue to occur serve to make your point. Why bother to continue making the same suggestion when it appears that it is falling on deaf ears, and you end up becoming the victim of scorn because of your persistence?

Again, I am not knocking your opinion nor do am I attacking you - I do see your points more clearly, but it is obvious that the powers that be aren't going to change.   Could you expain to our forum why you continue?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 12:50 PM

Please forgive the cut and paste but below is a Shambles post from the summer of 2000!!! It might easily fit into this thread. It's the same story folks and he's been making people post and respond for all that time. He'll never stop as long as we keep feeding him reasons to. I also apologize for THIS post but I wanted you all to see that if you think you're going to change anything by responding to him, well, it hasn't worked in over SIX years!!!

***************************************************************


Music threads are routinely retitled and consolidated and cross-indexed as part of our indexing process, to help make it easier for people to find songs by song title or songwriter name. If space permits, the original thread title is retained, with clarifying words added. Non-music threads are occasionally retitled for clarity, but the need to retitle non-music threads does not arise as frequently because non-music threads are not used for reference.
-Joe Offer-

Yes it is mostly well-intention but perhaps it is as well to forget the fancy words and the 'spin'? Routine censorship imposed by anonymous volunteer posters - upon the invited contributions of fellow posters - without their prior knowledge or permission is what we are talking about here.

My main point is that "our" indexing process does not seem to involve obtaining the agreement of the contributors. When the issues here - like whether a thread is combined into one - left as the poster made it - or have a link to others - are largely a question of personal taste - as Jon's post indicates.

The question is - whose personal taste? Why not mine, Jon's or your's?

As you can't please all of the people all of the time - perhaps it is better that the personal tastes of each contributor are respected and any changes to their contribution are only made with their agreement?   

We could all argue forever about the merits of each imposed change - (that is why it is better not to impose one's personal taste and judgement upon others). But Jon mentioned the Cyril Tawney thread so I will express my personal view on that imposed change.

A link to the two threads would have been better as one was started when he was alive (if very ill) and the others was started after his death. The originator of the later thread - did have the option of refreshing an existing one - but chose to start a new one.

Perhaps poster's freely made choices like this - can be respected by all our volunteers (especially the anonymous ones) - from now on?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 12:08 PM

No but I doubt whether than anyone other than you would complain about taking an action because of the ongoing problem of spam.

Jon - it surely depends on what that action and its effect is. I suggest that closing threads and deleting things is not the cure-all answer to every problem on our forum. If indeed it is the answer to any?

Sometimes we become so intent on solving a problem that we may not notice that the so-called cure is in fact doing more harm that the original problem is supposed to cure. This I would suggest is the situation here.

I would prefer to read and contribute to the Dubliners thread - and ignore any spam - than not to be able to read, contribute or refresh the thread at all. Which is now the case - what next?

We got used to static on the radio - most of us tend to treat spam in the same way, do our best to ignore it but not allow it to spoil our enjoyment. Few of us would have thought that throwing the radio away or not making any programmes - would be a sensible reaction to deal with static.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 05:57 AM

(I'd doubt that MC has a fraction of those "problem domians" btw. I think the Wiki list is more an indication of how things can go).

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 05:45 AM

Poor old Dubliners – it certainly isn't their fault- or mine. Or is it?

No but I doubt whether than anyone other than you would complain about taking an action because of the ongoing problem of spam. It is difficult to know how to deal with it, there does seem to be automated "spam bots" around and the problem seems to be getting worse.

Here is a blacklist file for domains from MediaWiki (the software used by Wikipedia).

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 05:05 AM

Please delete spam

Subject: RE: Please Delete Spam
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04-Oct-06 - 02:04 AM
I think we're going to have to live with Spam in that Dubliners thread. It's a long thread, so moving all the "good" messages would be difficult.
We've had maybe 25 Spam messages in that one thread. We delete them as we see them.
-Joe-

Then a bit later.

Subject: RE: Please Delete Spam
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07-Oct-06 - 03:24 PM
We get Spam in the Dubliners thread almost every day, so I finally decided to close the thread. It appears the Spam is being sent automatically.
-Joe-

Poor old Dubliners – it certainly isn't their fault- or mine. Or is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Oct 06 - 04:45 AM

Totally different issue! I am aware that Max has not seen fit to institute this...I am merely noting my view of how it might help. I am not campaigning for this change, I am discussing it.

As indeed I am trying to do - when you refer to this as a campaign (or tilting at windmills). But you are seen to be publicly supporting the 'best efforts' of those who are publicly still pushing Max for this change - even though they have admitted the failure of their 'best efforts'. Could you expain to our forum why?

Subject: RE: Please delete personal attack
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05-Oct-06 - 04:25 PM

I know, it's a tossup about deleting nasty posts. If we delete such stuff while they're here and watching, they just post it again. I've seen Shambles do it eight times in a row, and then post a dozen messages complaining about the deletions.
If we don't delete the nasty stuff right away, then a dozen Mudcatters respond to it. Seems like a losing battle. I'm beginning to think that the only way we can bring it under control is to have members-only posting in BS, and a way to screen non-member posting in the music section before it becomes visible to the public.
-Joe-

You are so wrapped up in your personal cloak of righteous indignation about imagined problems, that you can't see that most of the censure you receive is only BECAUSE of your own behavior.

Am I also imagining the problem of these selective restrictions on my posting only? The record will show that my posting record is setting a far better example than the one shown by many of those who would judge me. It must now be clear to aall posters that my contributions are only restricted by (some of) our 'moderators' only because they do not like my views and do not wish to see them discussed.

But you can see from the above someone is certainly 'imagining that I post 'nasty posts' and for their own reasons is now publicly mis-imforming our forum of this fabrication. However, when when our anonymous 'moderators' find bogus reasons to 'silently delete' my posts - I have no way of knowing this has occured - as no editing comment of explanation of this action is given. So quite reasonably I try to post it again. Is it really any surprise that a poster may not be happy with such treatment of their posts on our forum?

Quite how the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team judges he can further control what he sees as a problem by the introduction of members only posting is unclear. What is clear is that he now wishes to first personally vet and aprove every single post to the music section. And following his recent example - if some post does manage to slip him by - he will have no hesitation in closing the entire thread.

Perhaps he will be finally happy when he can prevent everything he does not agree with from appearing or until he has managed to prevent ALL posting - to finally ensure that our forum is shaped to his requirements only.

I am sure BIll D - you will also been seen to support this? Or perhaps you may support it - but no one will then be able to see you support it.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 07:32 PM

I would not support them if **I** considered them ineffective! I consider moderators essential...anonymity is almost irrelevant in my opinion...if something needs edited of deleted, I don't really care whether I know who did it. YOU are the one who seems to care.

But of course you do care very much about posters being anonymous - you have been moaning on and on about it for years and you still are.

all it would do is reduce the confusion that occurs when 23 'guests' are all posting at once...(or is it one guest with 23 agendas?)

But whether you or my Scottish friend consider our 'moderators' efforts to be effective - the fact is that THEY have admitted that they do not consider their best efforts to be effective. Which is why they now push MAX to change our forum into members only posting. Perhaps you should take this point up with them?

Their best efforts are either currently effective or they are not - which is it? If they are effective as you claim - why do they see the need for a further change to members only posting?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: bobad
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 06:05 PM

I agree with Wolfy Dan.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:57 PM

'How about I grease up a nice cold iron rod for you, pal? Sounds like you need one right about now.'

You perverted friggin' monkey. COLD IRON? Sheesh. Anyway, who's gonna learn shit from some guy that had Fay Wray in his hands and proceeded to let her get away? Eat yer banana. You need the potassium.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:50 PM

"Bill D - But what do you want?

You appear to support anonymous 'moderators' - however ineffective and counter-productive this may be to our forum..."

I would not support them if **I** considered them ineffective! I consider moderators essential...anonymity is almost irrelevant in my opinion...if something needs edited of deleted, I don't really care whether I know who did it. YOU are the one who seems to care.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

"But you then point our the advantages of a change to members only posting - and ingnore that this is NOT the Max approved status quo."

Totally different issue! I am aware that Max has not seen fit to institute this...I am merely noting my view of how it might help. I am not campaigning for this change, I am discussing it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you don't like Max's basic posting policy that our forum has always operated on - why have you stayed posting (and moaning) for so long and why do you not form your own private club? Why do you think you have some right after all this time, to impose your requirements on other posters on our forum?"

THAT is utter balderdash! You have taken my simple comments and twisted and re-stated what I said until it no longer resembles my opinion, my attitude or my intent! I don't WANT a private club..THIS is not a private club- anyone may be here. I would rather they be identified, but as you see, I live with the fact they are not.....and just where do you get off suggesting that I am even TRYING to **impose** anything on other posters?

   You, Shambles, are trying harder than anyone to impose one viewpoint on others. Insisting that no editing be done, that no anonymous moderators be allowed, that YOU are the judge of what language is appropriate, that nothing be changed without 'advanced permission' from a poster..etc..etc...is just as much an attempt to "IMPOSE" as any of the things you complain about! You are so wrapped up in your personal cloak of righteous indignation about imagined problems, that you can't see that most of the censure you receive is only BECAUSE of your own behavior.

It IS hopeless to talk to you. I now retire once more to the shadows. I don't like it when I catch myself beginning to tilt at windmills!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:47 PM

Does he have to take his finger out first?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:25 PM

I always peel the banana before I eat it. I'm not stupid. How about I grease up a nice cold iron rod for you, pal? Sounds like you need one right about now.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:17 PM

Peel the banana so it will insert more easily. Howzat?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 05:07 PM

"They look out for their own, that's for sure."

This is also true of the Chicago police, the North Side Gorillas, the South Side Baboons, and every other organization I'm familiar with...

So what other pearls of wisdom ya got for us today?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:46 PM

'For it is obvious I and any other poster could endlessly post warm uncritical praise of our 'moderators' efforts many times and in as many threads as they wished (and some do) - and there would not be any action imposed.'

That's true. But say something they don't like and it will be deleted relentlessly, and often. They look out for their own, that's for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:43 PM

Nine HUNDRED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bananas, mangos, and drinks all around!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:40 PM

Non posting of judgements week

If all these post containing only judgements of my worth have proved anything - is that posting only such judgements about named fellow posters in these witch-hunts are a complete waste of poster's time and effort.

Perhaps it is better to just discuss the issue and views posted or just ignore it - if you find any aspect of a post annoying or irritating?

The concept that any poster has the right to try (in any way) to prevent another from expressing their honest views on our forum (as often as they wish to) is at the heart of this.

It is quite clear that all of the justifications given for the current Chief of the Mudcat Mudcat Editing Team' imposing special restrictions on my posting only - are bogus. Whatever your personal judgement of me may be - this abuse should concern you and you should request that these restrictions are lifted.

For it is obvious I and any other poster could endlessly post warm uncritical praise of our 'moderators' efforts many times and in as many threads as they wished (and some do) - and there would not be any action imposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST,Wolfy Dan
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:05 PM

Owooooooooooooo....! Owooooooooooooooooo...!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 04:03 PM

I think "moan" is probably open to interpretation - as are the rules.

As I've said earlier, I do think Shambles has been attacked far too often here.   Unfortunately, everyone will post personal judgements - as Shambles himself does when he says the "moderators" constantly moan and encourage other posters to moan.   I know that last sentence may cause Shambles to start cutting and pasting supposed examples, but this lengthy thread already has them and I encourage Shambles to save his energy - we've seen the examples.

"Moaning" could be interpreted as the attacks made on Shambles, or they could be interpreted as Shambles seemingly endless postings that seem to be making the same point over and over.   Moaning could also be interpreted as my interjections in this discussion.

Moaning could also be interpreted by my repition of the the following sentence - it really doesn't matter what any of us think or post, it all boils back to how the management deals or does not deal with it.   Let the forum speak for itself.   We are all shithouse lawyers with time on our hands and our "moaning" about either side of the supposed issue means diddly squat.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM

I try to express my views.

A look through my posting history will show that I rarely moan about or post only personal judgements about my fellow named posters or respond in kind to the many I am subjected to and not protected from.

An example that if followed would solve many of the things that our 'moderators' constantly moan about and encourage other posters to moan about.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 03:43 PM

"The dessert tray has been left out in the sun too long - somebody is going to get an upset stomach. Either remove the tray, get new cream puffs, or watch where you step."

For a second there I thought you were going to break into

"Someone left the cake out in the rain
I don't think that I can take it
'Cause it took so long to bake it
And I'll never have that recipe again
Oh, no!"

Thank you for NOT doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM

Shambles will never admit that he is a moaner, part of the problem, unrealistic or wrong. He is a total ostrich when it comes to seeing where he stands in relationship to the rest of Mudcat. It is obvious from the fact that few people support him that his views are not what the remainder of Mudcat wishes for. It is his belief that everything should change for the benefit of only one...Shambles. It ain't gonnna happen brother.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:19 PM

"Far from there being an 'overwhelming number' the opposite is true."

Guest, I do agree with you. That was the point I was trying to make. The number of "moaners" seems to be significantly higher than the number of bouncers/moderators.

There are "moaners" on both sides of the arguement too. It is not a one way street.

Screw examples! That is a red herring here. Very few people live up to the standards that they themselves set, and when it comes to our "party" the happy medium is always the best solution. I've been to parties where the host has too much to drink, but he is also taking car keys away from others before they can drive off. Leading by example is always a goal, but we are all human (thank god.)

People make mistakes and will go to the party and give the hosts rug a cigarette burn, and the host may spill the coffee over a guest as well - but we move on. Mistakes happen, no big deal. Apologies, if needed, are said. The ground rules might be repeated, and the party continues on.   If you dwell on the fact that someone threw up on the cat, then the fun stops. If someone has to leave, so be it. If the host has to tighten up the list, so be it.   Clean up the cat and party on.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:08 PM

Guest, my thought exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 02:05 PM

Don't you think you might be one of the moaners shambles?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:47 PM

Shambles, I agree with you that perhaps the bouncers may be doing some moaning, but if that is the case there seems to be an overwhelming number of bouncers present!

Yes it sometimes appears that way. Posters tend to do this anyway - unless it is discouraged, so a forum like ours does not need to be seen to encourage posters to moan about what others choose to post. But as it is (some of) our 'moderators' who set this example, it should really be no surprise that usual easy targets - once named - will have no shortage of those willing to follow this example.   

The same few moaning posters can make their number appear a lot larger and once you give a dog a bad name - others will join in who have no real idea what all the moaning and personal judgements are all about and whether there is really any justification for them.

It is clear that the example set by our 'moderators' and their supporters will be followed as acceptable posting behaviour. And it is this behaviour that our 'moderators' then moan about and blame posters for.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 01:34 PM

Far from there being an 'overwhelming number' the opposite is true. Many, many more are enjoying the ambience and partaking of the hospitality.

Just because the FEW seem to think that incessant moaning is a good night out please do not think their number is overwhelming. There are ten hard core moaners here. Click your fingers and they come running every time.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Oct 06 - 12:25 PM

Shambles, I agree with you that perhaps the bouncers may be doing some moaning, but if that is the case there seems to be an overwhelming number of bouncers present!

No one has an "equal right".   The host can decide who stays and who goes.   If the host doesn't like the way someone (anyone) is behaving, he or she can make a decision. There are no grey areas here - it is the hosts call to do something or to do nothing.   No matter what happens at the party, the reflection goes back to the host. No "ifs", "ands" or "buts" - it is the hosts party.

When you get down to it, it really doesn't matter who is doing the moaning. The dessert tray has been left out in the sun too long - somebody is going to get an upset stomach. Either remove the tray, get new cream puffs, or watch where you step.