BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 03:27 PM

No I can't think of any better suggestions.

The answer to your second question has been previously given, and my opinion doesn't matter anyway. It also has no bearing on whether or not there should be changes.   Change does not necessarily need to be made to "fix" something.

Plus, it is not "our" forum.   Damn.. I said that before.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 03:26 PM

I do not see what is wrong with members' only posting in BS. Would you please explain that, Shambles? I fail to see how that restricts free speech.

Our forum has managed without this for 10 years - firstly is there any evidence that this proposed change (or anything at all) would bring about the peace required on our forum by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team?

And if anyone is not happy with the current posting policy - what is preventing them from starting a forum with whatever policy they wish?

But that is only half of the proposed change. Because as a result of this change, non members unable to post BS, would then be free to post on the music section - the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team has offered to first review any post there before it appears on the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 03:22 PM

"why should our forum be changed so radically from the posting policy that Max has followed from the beginning?"

Because things change. It's not the same forum it was 6 or 7 years ago. If Max wants to change HIS forum he can. And we can either like it or leave. Max hasn't asked me - and I doubt he will - but I'd like to see his Mudcat become a members only forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 03:13 PM

I think the suggestion of members only posting has great merit.

Can you think of any other suggestions - for our forum?

If this is still a place to goof off and have a good conversation - why should our forum be changed so radically from the posting policy that Max has followed from the beginning?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 03:12 PM

I do not see what is wrong with members' only posting in BS. Would you please explain that, Shambles? I fail to see how that restricts free speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:56 PM

Please do not cloud the discussion Shambles, and please do not put words in other peoples mouths. I did judge you "amiss". You should also state that it is your view concerning who is encouraging what sort of negative comment.   Nor do I have a reason to refrain either since my discussion is not of the same substance or concern.

I think the suggestion of members only posting has great merit.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:55 PM

"Here's a novel idea for you. Let it go."

Neat idea for a book. Good title, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:52 PM

Here's a novel idea for you. Let it go.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:49 PM

If you truly wish to keep this on topic, you would not respond in public to the negative comments about you and defer all comments and responses of the type to private messages.

Ron - If posters were not encouraged to post only such negative comments - as if this could pass as discussion - I would have nothing to respond to and for you to judge me amiss for?

Perhaps you could ask that posters do not post only such things and refrain from this yourself?

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-

Can you think of any other suggestions?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:24 PM

Thanks. Just checking!!   :)   It gets confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:21 PM

and mine

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: MMario
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:19 PM

sorry ron, no my remark was directed at the Shambles.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:03 PM

"If those who make this statement and those who support them - really feel this our forum is now so poor- no one is forcing them to stay on our forum and not be able to be able to goof off or not be able to have a good discussion.

And as most of their efforts (on this thread) seem to be designed to prevent good discussion rather than contributing to this one - should they leave to start their own private members club - their presence on this discussion forum will not be missed. "

What about you Shambles? You're the one who is doing the most complaining on "our" forum. Perhaps you should consider leaving and starting your own non-edited, say-whatever-you-want forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:02 PM

MMario & Giok - are you directing your last posts to me? I believe I answered questions and clarified my points numerous times.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: MMario
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 02:00 PM

I ask you to clarify your point and you say that the question is irrelevant to the discussion?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:57 PM

Yes, there is harm in repeating my views again, which are very evident elsewhere in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:56 PM

Can't hold a discussion with someone who will only answer those questions that suit them, and ignore all others.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:19 PM

Shambles, I have already answered your questions. Please refer back to my posts that are found among the nearly 1200 posts to this thread.

No harm in repeating it. For if you did provide it. I honestly don't know what it was. Perhaps for purposes of discussion - someone else may like to provide their answer?

Do you agree with the following statement? Which given the radical change to our forum which is suggested to solve it - is a crucial one.

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion.

My view is that if anything is wrong it can easily be solved. As it is largely as a result of these efforts. Which are now seen to to limit and shape our forum to the wishes of a few posters, rather than be seen to enable our forum to accomodate many and varied requirements of the the majority.

I also consider that the public push to change our forum even further to a members only forum - is just the latest piece of limiting and shaping by a few posters to their requirements. And the statement - just another tactic by these few to achieve this end.

If those who make this statement and those who support them - really feel this our forum is now so poor- no one is forcing them to stay on our forum and not be able to be able to goof off or not be able to have a good discussion.

And as most of their efforts (on this thread) seem to be designed to prevent good discussion rather than contributing to this one - should they leave to start their own private members club - their presence on this discussion forum will not be missed.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:16 PM

"What's a metaphor?"

Hell, I don't even know what a meta IS!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:48 AM

15:48 here

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:45 AM

1207

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:45 AM

1206

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:44 AM

1205

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:40 AM

Had it all planned out....multiple windows and all......I NEVER play this game because I never get close or I have to add 4 or 5 posts.....But since this is such a complete POS thread anyway.....WTF!!!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:39 AM

Make that Lane and Swan then?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:38 AM

Damn, just missed screwing you up. Shit!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:36 AM

1200

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:36 AM

1200

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:35 AM

to go for it and get...........

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:34 AM

But I am going.................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: JennyO
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:34 AM

I never metaphor I didn't like.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:28 AM

I've never cared for metaphors myself. I prefer the giant economy size metaphives instead.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:24 AM

It's a metaphor Bruce!

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:18 AM

"For if you wave a red rag at a bull - you can hardly be surprised at the bull's reaction."

Any rag actually. Bulls are colour blind I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:40 AM

Shambles, I have already answered your questions. Please refer back to my posts that are found among the nearly 1200 posts to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:25 AM

"Do you agree with that statement or not? For I have asked you twice and if you have answered - I have not seen this answer."

Come on Shambles. Don't be upset that Ron didn't answer you. You're the one who always avoids answering direct questions. Are you now expecting a double standard from someone else?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 06:39 AM

A load of bullocks?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:53 AM

I don't think he has done anything wrong other than deal with people as human beings. His emotions are just like any of us.

I certainly appear to have been judged as having done something wrong - as I am under some punishment for this. Have I?

Do you think then that I HAVE done something wrong - in trying to engage in discussion? For unlike many who would feel qualified to judge me - I have not encouraged the example of posting only abusive personal attacks and name-calling - no matter how high my emotions may be running or how frustrated I may have become.

It is not only possible for posters to do this - it is vital that our 'moderators' are not to be seen to indulge in this. It is just as vital that such posting from them - is not seen to be excused. Especially when the consequences for other posters are to be seen so severe.

Ron - you appear to me to be supporting a unfair and unequal double standard of posting behaviour. One that to my mind is responsible for all of the things on our forum that our current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team now finds fault with and has led him to state: And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion

Do you agree with that statement or not? For I have asked you twice and if you have answered - I have not seen this answer.

My view is that until drastic change happens and a more positive example of posting behaviour is set by our 'moderators' our forum will just reflect the current negative example back.

So, short of members-only posting, what can we do to bring peace to this place? I'd rather have another solution, but I haven't been able to think of one.
-Joe Offer-

Can you? I suggest the first thing is for 'moderators' not to be seen to be indulging in conflict on our forum with individual named posters. For if you wave a red rag at a bull - you can hardly be surprised at the bull's reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 01:03 PM

FYI

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 12:57 PM

Like I said Shambles, there is nothing further to debate. I've already answered all your questions and points. I've already stated which points of yours I agree with and which ones I don't. No sense in repeating myself, yet again.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:43 AM

Groundhog Day?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:38 AM

Ron, You keep falling for Shambles' baiting and engaging him in a discussion that you will never win or even score points in.

Shambles, Why can't you understand that almost everyone here just doesn't care about your views. No one will ever change anything because you are the one asking them to do it. It's like in the Broadway show 1776, no one would do anything that John Adams wanted because Adams was obnoxious, a bore, a pest and just totally unpleasant to be with. Does that sound familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:04 AM

I don't think he has done anything wrong other than deal with people as human beings. His emotions are just like any of us.

The issue is not who has or who has not done anything wrong. For I hope that none of us would claim to be perfect?

What matters is the effect on our forum of - what has been seen to be done and the way this is seen to be done.

Our 'moderators' have largely been able to do as they wish - but they refuse to take any responsiblity for the result - which they go on to describe as. And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion.

Ron - I don't agree with this - do you?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I do think that Joe might have been better served if he did not make his feelings about you known publicly to eliminate the appearance of "mis-use" of his authority.

Ron - you slip this in as if this were a minor criticism and if it were of little or no account and just to be accepted - when it is the main cause of all of this, and badly needs to be adressed and corrected. Perhaps you would accept that a start could be made by removing the special restrictions on my posting?

All posters must be seen to be receiving equal treatment from any 'moderator'. Otherwise none of them have any protection from any accusation from posters that these 'moderators' have "mis-used" their authority.

For not only are these personal views, assumptions and speculations about possible motivations made known - in posts and editing comments - they are also seen to be acted upon.

If the personal feelings of our 'moderators' about any named posters were not made public on our forum - other posters would not feel that it was acceptable posting behaviour to follow this example by posting only their personal judgements of named fellow posters. BUT THIS EXAMPLE WAS SET - AND IT CONTINUES. It is no form of solution to anything and will only further and quite needlessly divide our forum, should it be allowed to continue.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 09:47 AM

Sorry Shambles, I have to disagree with you. I do think that Joe might have been better served if he did not make his feelings about you known publicly to eliminate the appearance of "mis-use" of his authority.   I don't think he has done anything wrong other than deal with people as human beings. His emotions are just like any of us.

I also think that you have the opportunity to post your views in other forums, but you have been instructed not to discuss your views about this particular subject in threads other than this. Is it right or wrong? I am not sure. Is it the result of lengthy disagreements that have boiled over for years? Yes. It really should be a private matter.

Giok is right. This has become a circular discussion. I am sure you are going to knock apart the above two paragraphs that I wrote by using quotes gathered over the last 7 years in an attempt to disprove my views.   That is your choice. This ceased to be a fruitful discussion a long time ago. My posting and the postings of others probably say more about our own faults then it does yours. The point is, we all have faults. Mudcat is not a forum where lives are at stake, or our freedom of speech.   We are human beings and like the music that draws us to this site, we wear our emotions on our sleeves. We do not have to read any thread, we do not have to post. Yet human nature draws us to these subjects. We like to see our words in print. We blow off steam by calling people names, knowing that we will never have to face that person and deal with it honestly. We cower under the cloak of anonymity which allows us to be something we aren't.

To make my rambling short - we make mistakes. We deal with it. Live goes on and harping on problems of minor consequence only dulls our senses for the real important issues.   I realize that you feel this is an important issue Shambles, but I hope someday you will realize that even though you have a good case, it isn't worth wasting an effort.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 08:26 AM

I'm trying to stay away from this circular thread, as all it does is rehash all the same old arguments, comes to no conclusions and never will, and most of the people concerned don't take any notice of what the other contributors say.
Roger won't change anything about how the Mudcat is run, and may in fact be the single largest factor in any decision to go to a members only posting scenario. Especially as he seems to attract more Guests than any other contributor, and I know for a fact that many of those Guests are Mudcat members.
Anyway, having posted when I know I shouldn't bother as it is a waste of cyber space, I will tell you why I came back to this thread.
I have discovered a new word which perfectly describes this thread, along with it's main subject and contributor, the word is...........

BOREGASMIC !


Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 08:05 AM

That is where I disagree with you Shambles. I think Joe has every right to speak for himself, and I don't think his actions have set any influence or directed actions to meet his suggestion. True, I don't think I would have voiced an opinion but he did, and so what?

As a fellow poster - of course this individual has everyright to speak for himself in as many threads as he wishes to (unlike me) and he does this.

But this was not the point being made - was it? It was this individual being seen to be speaking for others.

You may not judge this have set any influence or directed actions to meet his suggestions - but I have a different view. But perhaps you will accept the intention to incite is there - whether any posters take any notice of it or not.....?

In this role of the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team - both in editing comments and in posts here and on the Mudcat Help and Trouble Forum - and by the use of words like 'we' 'us' 'our' etc, this poster is seen to speak on behalf of others. Which quite understandably, will then be seen by many posters as an official Mudcat line.

The current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team's favoured private agenda of a change to members only posting of BS and of him first approving any music related posts - does NOT currently appear to be the official line (although the way it is being pushed publicly by some of our 'moderators', it will come as little surprise if it does come to pass).

It is not an agenda that appears to be shared by all of our 'moderators' but it is an agenda pushed by the current Chief of the Mudcat Editing Team as the only solution the the problems on our forum that he now appears to see as insurmountable, without such a radical change.

And despite our best efforts, Mudcat is no longer a pleasant place to hang out and goof off or have a good discussion.

No - I for one do not agree with that statement - nor the only suggested solution to it - do you? But can any poster who does not agree and who values Max's open invitation for the public's open contribution and wishes for it to continue - really accept that this policy is in safe hands?

Given the push for this agenda - can posters really be expected to trust that our current 'moderator's' best efforts are being made to make Max's current posting policy work? Or could they reasonably suspect these best efforts are being made to demonstrate that it cannot?

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 09:03 PM

"Good night, and good luck."

I think Ed would have that right with this thread.

sIx

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 07:10 PM

That is where I disagree with you Shambles. I think Joe has every right to speak for himself, and I don't think his actions have set any influence or directed actions to meet his suggestion. True, I don't think I would have voiced an opinion but he did, and so what?

Personally, I think you both should take this outside and settle it in the schoolyard so the rest of us can back to our studies.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: Peace
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:16 PM

Goodnight'Grandpa. Goodnight,Grandma. Goodnight,John. Goodnight,Olivia. Goodnight,John-Boy. Goodnight,Jason. Goodnight,Ben. Goodnight,Jim-Bob. Goodnight,Mary-Ellen. Goodnight,Erin. Goodnight,Elizabeth. Goodnight,Curt. Goodnight,John-Curtis. Goodnight,Cindy. Goodnight,Ginny. Goodnight,Baldwin Sisters. Goodnight,Yancy. Goodnight,Ike. Goodnight,Corabeth. Goodnight,Aimee.

Subject: RE: BS: Closed threads & deleted posts.
From: number 6
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:03 PM

"And THAT'S the way it is,"

""Good night David. Good night Chet"


sIx