BS: my Spouse has left with our son!

Subject: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:52 PM

This is too personal to post under my Mudcat handle, but I am literally frantic and have got to 'talk' to some one. I'm going to provide detail ad nauseum, simply because I need to in order to try to calm myself.

Spouse and middle-school aged son got home tonight from a road trip of several days. Spouse has severe ADD and also runs a business out of our too small house. The whole place habitually looks like a tornado just went through--it is so shameful that only a few very close people are ever allowed inside the house. I'm no neatnik myself, but the place really is appalling. There are so many piles of stuff and papers covering nearly every level surface that it is impossible to do more than vacuum the paths through and dust around the edges. Mostly I just accept that life with spouse means the mess.

I need some small area that is not completely dominated by the mess, however, and for the last two days I have been cleaning and organizing the part of the living room we actually inhabit. The center of the floor and the sofa were clear, but all of the tables, the computer area, and two areas along opposite walls were piled high with assorted paper goods. I know better than to dispose of any of Spouse's piles, so I got some sturdy plastic containers and put Spouse's piles in the containers, placing everything in the same order in which it had been piled, and using a separate box for each pile. I labeled the boxes and moved them into another, equally assessible part of the house.

When he walked into the living room, he first commented on how good it looked, then asked, sounding rational, what I had done with his 'piles.' I started to tell him, and then he went off on a rant, informing me he was going to move it all back tomorrow, screaming and cursing me. I got mad, went and got one of the boxes and said "Here, I'll save you the trouble", and bent over to dump it back in the corner it had come from. (I know, real mature of me *sigh*). I wasn't aware, because he was behind me, but in the meantime, my son had come into the room to see what the yelling was about. When I bent over, Spouse jumped up from the sofa, grabbed me by the wrist and jerked my away from the box, then shoved me across the room. Next, he picked up the box and flung it across the room, breaking the box and scattering the contents. I was completely shocked and frightened and considered calling the police, but he didn't come toward me after that, and I told him I would call the police if he laid another hand on me.

Spouse is emotionally abusive, and had been physically abusive to me early in our marriage. I took out a warrant and he went through a domestic violence treatment program. There had been no physical violence or even shoving for at least 20 years. I walked out of the room and went to my son, who had withdrawn to his bedroom. He is, I am sorry to say, accustomed to his father's tantrums, but had never seen his Dad shove me before. He was disgusted with both of us for getting into an arguement right of the bat, and disturbed that his Dad had pushed me. Spouse was moving in and out of the house, unloading from their trip. He and I completely ignored one another. He was rational and calm in his conversations with our son abut the unloading process.

I was still very shaken and realized my son was taking on the role of comforter. Seeing that Spouse was talking appropriately to him, I decided it was safe to leave him for a few minutes alone with his Dad. I told him I needed to go calm myself down, that I was going to drive around the block (it is cold and raining so I didn't want to walk)and would be back in 15 or 20 minutes.

When I returned, they were gone. I have driven through the parking lots of all the local motels, driven out to our farm, 15 miles from here to see if they went there, and called all the motels of the chain in which Spouse always stays when he travels within a 50 mile radius. Nada. He has turned his cell phone off. My son really wanted to be home, and I think it likely he is upset and distressed that his Dad has done this. He is a smart boy and I imagine he knows he is being used as a pawn.

Spouse is a heavy closet drinker and pot smoker, but there was no alcohol on his breath when they arrived home. He hides both the alcohol and the pot use from our son, and they had been driving for several hours, so I don't think my son is at risk riding in the car with him. If I thought he was drinking or was stoned I wouldn't hesitate to call the police. I am pretty certain he is physically safe with his Dad.

That being the case, I am waffling about whether to call the police at this point. I don't know that they have grounds to intervene. He is the father, after all. I think our son is already freaked out some for his Dad to have done this. If the police did look for them and find them, that might freak him out even more. I am definitely freaking out, myself, but I don't want to involve the police for the purpose of taking care of me--I will not make him a pawn in this--and that may be all calling the police would accomplish.

I know this is long and kind of pointless to anyone but me. But writing it has got me calmed down a bit, so I will be able to think a little more clearly about what to do.

If you read this--thanks for 'listening.'

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jan 07 - 11:56 PM

Dear Jaysus.

I hope this works out. It sounds like you and the men in your life have a lot of undelivered communicating to do.

A

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: number 6
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:05 AM

Sounds like you and your spouse do have some problems to work out.

Don't you have family, friends, neighbours to contact and/or come over to your house at this time? These are people you should be with you at a time like this.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:05 AM

Coming from some experience, I would say this FOR SURE. This is way beyond what Mudcat can or should help with. You need to get going with some local, in-the-flesh resource people-- ASAP. And to be calmly careful as spouse or child may change their minds (several times) over the next few days.

Best of luck!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:09 AM

Oh dear, this is really disturbing. It brings back a lot of the feelings I used to have when I was going through an abusive marriage (thankfully well in the past) - and make no mistake, his behaviour IS abusive, no matter how often or not he actually lays a hand on you.

My ex used to threaten to take the children from time to time, but never actually went through with it. It's possible that your partner has only done this to frighten you, and will come back before too long. But if it gets to more than two or three hours, and you have heard nothing, I would DEFINITELY call the police.

I would also seriously consider leaving the marriage - by stealth if necessary if you think he might abscond with your son for good.

If you like, and feel safe enough to do it, please feel free to PM me. Your secret will be safe with me. Good luck!

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:25 AM

I don't quite follow the story line. To me it sounds like a fight/argument/confrontation with a spouse I wouldn't want in my life anyway.

But it sounds like the son is at least 10 years old, it sounds like the spouse cares about the boy (shields him from his own drug use) so he wouldn't harm him; frankly, it sounds like it will be a matter of only a short time before you hear from the boy, if not from the spouse.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,LadyJean
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:43 AM

Does your husband have a good relationship with his parents? a brother or sister? Are they reasonable? Call them and let them know what happened.
Even if you don't want to leave the marriage, talk to a lawyer

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 01:10 AM

The dog is still here. Now that I am thinking a bit more clearly, I know that means they will be back. Spouse would never forsake the dog. My guess is he will wait until I have left for work. I'm going to wrap up my cell phone and put where I know my son will find it when he gets home in the morning with a note for him to call me when he can do so privately.

He loves us both, but prefers my company, simply because I am much more even. Spouse, as is clear, is emotionally violatile, though he is more violatile with me than he is with our child. I try hard to maintain some equamity, to protect our son as best I can, and to give him the tools he needs to try to cope with what I know is a lousy situation for a kid.

I do have plans to leave, but it is a 'techy' thing. I am the primary wage earner. Under the domestic laws in my State, that would have given Spouse a significant legal edge custody-wise when our son was younger, since Spouse has been the primary caregiver. Working at home has made him a stay-at-home Dad. His business also has never paid for itself. (Not to say he doesn't work very, very hard at it.) He has enough mental and emotional problems that I don't think he is capable of working as an employee for someone, or of exercising the judgement needed to make money in his business.) We have a very modest income, and I could not support two households.

Now that our son is older, it is likely we would be awarded 50-50 custody. There have been times when my son has asked about he and I leaving, but he would rather me not leave his Dad if it meant he would have to live with his Dad, or spend 50% of his time living with his Dad without me there as a buffer. I want to make clear that these are conversation that are always initiated by my son, and not by me.

Spouse hides his problems very well from the outside world, and I have collaborated and enabled in that to a significant degree. From my work, I am familiar with what goes on in divorce courts and custody battles. The bottom line is children are dealt with in terms of property rights. In the absence of well-documented physical abuse and/or publicly known substance abuse, I would be very surprised if I were awarded full physical custody.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 01:21 AM

Talk to a lawyer and start documenting as much as possible. Get yourself and son into counseling, and dad, too, if he is willing.

If they aren't back by morning, I would not hesitate to call the police and also a women's crisis center. They would have much information and contacts with which to help in such a situation; in fact, I'd call a women's center now, if there is one available. Susan is right; get local, in-the-flesh help asap.

With all good wishes,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: skarpi
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 01:38 AM

I agree with Susan and kat , go to local Police and get some help
from the woman center :>) you feel better. At least you can talk to someone .

All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:18 AM

I have talked with a lawyer, but it has been a few years. It is probably worth doing so again. I didn't think of the women's crisis center. That sounds like a really good idea.

I feel like a line has been crossed tonight from which there is no going back, even if they are sitting here when I get home from work tomorrow. My emotional attachment to Spouse has just been a thin thread for a long time. The challenges around custody of our child has certainly held me in the marriage, but not that alone. My values around commitment, obligation and responsibility are deeply ingrained (programmed from the cradle, so to speak) and kept me in the marriage for many years before we had a child (who was not planned, by the way--I had been told several years earlier that I was infertile.) I remember telling a therapist once that the misery of staying was more tolerable than the guilt of violating the commitment I had made when I married.

But tonight changes things. The resumption of physical agression, the utter disregard for either me or our son expressed by this dissapearing act--my well release me from that commitment. There have been many times when what I most wanted to do was grab the child and run. But I knew that wasn't the right thing to do. That it was a childish, selfish and cowardly thing to do. I knew that in my particular circumstance it wasn't a necessary thing to do.

And he knows that too. Or he damn well should.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:22 AM

Knowing that he has cognitive impairments, that he struggles to keep his work and affairs together, and that he barely manages, even at that, you had to know that he would be devastated by the disruption that your "cleaning up" would cause.

You have to ask yourself, very seriously, why you chose to do it, and what you expected would happen--

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:51 AM

Yes, this situatuion is fraught with very real danger and it certainly is not an environment for your son. Please consult your nearest Abused Women's shelter. You are going to need a lot of support and informed advice. Your husband's problems can only be solved by him. You are not responsible for his emotional or mental state. Get you and your son to safety. The shelter can get you pointed in the right direction for legal and other services. Don't talk yourself out of it. Don't make believe it will get better. Don't be a statistic. God bless and get to moving on this.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:03 AM

Are you serious, M.Ted? It sounds to me like she has been bending over backwards for years making allowances for his problems, dusting around the piles and trying to keep the household together as best she could.

She said she was trying to carve out a little space for herself to work in. She said she carefully kept the piles in the same order, put each pile into a box and labelled it. It sounds to me like she was keeping his possible reaction very much in mind and trying to ensure that he would still be able to find his paperwork, but he didn't give her a chance to explain what she had done before going off on his tantrum.

She probably thought she had done it in such a way that there would be no adverse reaction from him. Why would she invite such an attack? And do you seriously excuse his behaviour because of his condition?

I'm sorry, but how much do you expect one person to "walk on eggshells" around another one before they decide they want a little bit of something for themselves? She is a human being too, and has a right to some happiness. It sounds to me like it is long overdue.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:13 AM

Wise words, Slag. Listen to his advice Anonymous Member and don't fall into the trap of minimizing the importance of this. It is a very easy trap for an abuse victim to fall into. I know - I've been there. Looking back now, I am horrified at the things I managed to rationalise, telling myself it wasn't so bad. It was. It took a broken jaw and a lot of other things before I got the message.

Care enough about yourself and your son to take action. Children bear the scars of these experiences too. Even without taking into account the physical abuse, I found the worst scars that I and my children suffered were on the inside.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:20 AM

Maybe if you had a place witha granny flat, that could be the business place. or a large shed. he sounds like a man in need of a shed, and you need the home back.

best wishes with sorting it out

al

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:01 AM

Listen to the advice on here from Susan, Kat and others and act on it - this is a real-world problem that cannot be resolved here. You MUST contact the appropriate agencies for your own safety and that of your son.
Don't procrastinate, prevaricate or dither - JUST DO IT!

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: fat B****rd
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:17 AM

I wish I'd something useful to add but the previous posters have just about said it all. My best regards for a quick end to your unhappiness. Charlie.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: eddie1
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:02 AM

Hi Anonymous Member.

My thoughts are with you.
IMHO, so far, you have been offered a lot of good advice, some not so good and some totally unhelpful. From experience in working with women in a similar situation to yourself, I would agree with the suggestion of getting in touch with a Women's Centre. You need someone in realspace who will offer unconditional support and give you the chance to sit back and take a breath. They will no doubt suggest an appropriate legal contact. Whatever you want/hope for the future it's not too early to look at that kind of help.
I would also suggest that now, while everything is still fresh in your memory, you try to write everything down with times, dates etc. Be as objective and factual as you can. This info can/could be very important in the future when it can be very difficult to remember what happened when.
The BIG thing to bear in mind is, this guy has a problem, not you. You are not his nurse and from what you say, you have made all the allowances one can reasonably be expected to make.
Good Luck and may your god bless you.

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:58 AM

Try to keep in mind the fact that the boy is HIS child too. I know that's difficult for a Mother to do, but it will help to ease your mind. It's not like he kidnapped the boy.
I don't know what state you live in, but you may want to consider that if the boy lives with his father, you could end up paying child support.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:00 AM

So far as your son is concerned, at his age it is likely that the court will take into consideration his own preferences when deciding on custody. If he makes it clear that he does not feel happy about spending time alone with his father that may influence the court decision.

I would agree that you need to contact the police or a women's crisi centre, or both. Get documented that fact that your husband removed the boy from your home in this way. That may tell against him in any proceedings that might follow.

The best of luck to you. I hope that things work out.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: MBSLynne
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:39 AM

I assume, since you said in the first post that your husband has severe ADD, that it has at some time been diagnosed? You also say that he has various mental and psychological problems. I would have thought that it would be unlikely that courts would award him custody of a child in view of this. Especially since the child himself does not want to live with his father without you there. Surely they would take that inot account too?

I sympathise strongly with your feelings about commitment etc and often deplore the ease with which some people break up their own homes with the excuse that "It's better for the family to be split rather than the children to live in an unhappy home" Mostly that's a load of rot, but in your case I think it would be valid. It can't do your son any good and certainly isn't doing you any good, to stay in that situation. You have to get out.

Good luck and let us know how it goes

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

Well hopefully from your most recent post, you now believe that the line has been crossed. Regardless of your feelings about commitment to the marriage, you also have a commitment to your son, who is bound to be being hurt by this. You have already seen evidence of his having to adapt his behaviour to accommodate the dysfunction of his family. You owe it to your son - and yourself, to have a better life. Get out before any more harm is done!

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Alice
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:11 AM

"Spouse would never forsake the dog" is a telling line.
It sounds like you know he feels stronger about coming back because of how he cares about the dog more than he cares about you.

Please call for help from domestic violence support professionals. This is a situation that can blow up into more violence than what just happened, especially with alcohol and pot contributing to an already dysfunctional relationship.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:36 AM

Still no word. I am too upset to go to work. I have called the women's crisis center, as many of Spouse's friends as I can think of, and his father. His cell phone is still turned off. Although I am loathe to do so, if I have heard nothing by noon I will go ahead and call the police.

If he has left the state, he is guilty of kidnapping. If he is in state, he has committed no crime, but the police still might get involved to locate him. After that, I don't know. I have an appointment to speak with an attorney, and if I have to call the police, they can probably tell me what some of my options are in terms of protecting myself and my son. I doubt my spouse would respect a restraining order.

I do not want a bunch of drama and disruption in my son's life, but there may not be an option that will prevent that.

M. Ted--go sniff the wind.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:47 AM

You go girl! And please don't wait too much longer before calling the police.

You are going to need strength to get through this. I'll be thinking of you and sending some energy to you from warm and sunny Oz.

It's bedtime here - so I have to leave this thread for now, but I'll be back. Good Luck!

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:56 AM

Good luck to you. A line has been crossed and you and your son need protection. A lawyer and a crisis center and frankly this is not the time to agonize over finances if it keeps you from acting.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 11:08 AM

It sounds as though your son has already had enough drama and disruption in his life. Time to create a stable and supportive home for him. Good for you for calling the women's centre and making an appointment with an attorney.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 12:21 PM

You said that if he left the state he is guilty of kidnapping. Where did that come from? How does one kidnap one's own child?

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Alba
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:08 PM

Anon.
Your are in my thoughts.

Best to keep the Horse in front of the cart for the moment and not jump too far ahead.
A step at a time.
Glad you called the Crisis Centre. Keep calling them if you feel yourself getting too frantic. Support is essential and while we here can only offer you a place to air your feelings, Women's Centre will offer face to face help and good non-judgemental advice.
I would , myself, call the Police. They may be able to help locate them and that would help a lot in putting your mind at rest regarding the safety of your Son and the stability of your Spouse at this time.

Where did they just return from? Is there a chance that Spouse returned there?

Put you first for the time being and talk to anyone that will listen.

May all resolve itself to the higher good of all concerned.
PM if you feel the need to.
Love and Light (at the end of this tunnel)
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:49 PM

As a parent of an ADHD daughter and Autistic daughter, I would be concerned for your Spouse and his health/self esteem and would definately recommend involving the police if only to find him and your son and make sure they are alright.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Tinker
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 02:57 PM

Remember there are many of us here to hold all of you in our love while this works out. As you need us, tell us....

Blessings and Light

Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:00 PM

I am so sorry that you are going through this. It sounds as if your husband not only has ADD but also has difficulty with impulse control. That can be a very dangerous combination when a person is angry. Its not hard to understand that you have been walking on eggshells and your son is not immune to the lack of problem-solving ability in your family.

Continue to seek support locally. You need a lawyer and both you and your son need counselling. Your son might also benefit from a child advocate to help him express his needs.

Your first responsibility is to provide what is best for your child. If your husband does not have you to abuse, he will, most likely, transfer it to your son. Call the police and seek protection for both you and your son.

Do it now.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 03:20 PM

Don't wait any longer to call the police. They are both missing persons and the police should be looking for them. Your marriage is dead in the water. Do everyone a favor and get a divorce.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Willie-O
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:04 PM

Kendall, one kidnaps one's own child by violating the terms of a custody order, specifically removing the child from the custodial or shared-custody parent. It's far and away the most common type of kidnapping I believe. But there has to BE a custody order to make it kidnapping.

Look up the strange and current case of Myriam Bedard for a bizarre example.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:11 PM

Sometimes drama is real and cannot be helped or avoided.

And please: To those of you who have well-meningly posted with suggestions of how to "fix" the problem, please stop. That is only a cosmetic solution. If you only treat the symptoms, the disease still remains,

I have much experience in this area. Trust me. Get to the shelter. Talk with those who know and who have been through this. Don't delay one minute.

Yes the boy is related to the father. The more serious issue of ending the abuse comes first. Courts or counsellors will determine later what the father's relationship will be like. There could even be a chance that the marriage could be saved PROVIDED THAT THE FATHER ACKNOWLEDGES HIS PROBLEM AND ACTIVELY AND WILLINGLY SEEKS PROFESSIONAL HELP!

Again, I urge you, DO NOT DELAY. Do this now.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:12 PM

I know about that situation, but as long as a couple still live together and are not divorced and there is no legal separation, I don't see how kidnapping is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:13 PM

Physically abusive. Emotionally abusive. Heavy closet drinker. Pot smoker. Severe ADD.

If this man was not your child's father would you report this to the police? Because to do what he did isn't someone acting with their child's interest foremost.

Hope it works out ok for all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:38 PM

I truthfully believe that this is a made up story. It takes two to cause a problem like this. If it is true, look inside yourself and try to figure out what part of the blame is yours. None of us are totally innocent in a marriage situation.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM

A certain member's opening posts came back to me reading this thread. He was the hard done by lone parent left with a five year old daughter by an addict partner? Within days he was the wise cracking member laced with heavy innuendo type.

Which attention seeking member has posted today for the first time in months? I have my suspicions.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 04:44 PM

Guest 4:38. I believe you're wrong. If it were a "made up" story, so what? The answer is still the same. In my training we'd role play and make up scenarios. In the given situation, the analysis of the relationship must take a back seat to the issue of abuse. If the person does not protect the child then she is complicit in the abuse of the child. Secondarily she is also complicit in the abuse of herself. This is the ONLY issue that should be addressed at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:06 PM

Slag,

I agree with you on the fact that if this is a true story the person is complicit in the abuse of herself. Anyone who is abused once and doesn't do something about it immediately is a total moron. No excuses whatsoever. I'm so tired of hearing about people who have been abused time after time after time and still stay with the spouse or boyfriend for whatever reason. No, they don't deserve to get abused again (for all those who think I am heartless)but they are definitely responsible for their multiple abuses because they didn't leave the SOB to begin with...or have him/her arrested. As I said, the anonymouse person, who I still don't believe is really in this situation, should look inside hereself to determine how much fault for this situation is hers.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:07 PM

Slag
I think you overlook what could happen from the spouses point of view and with his son.

He could do anything and as such is a possible danger to himself, his son and his wife. The police need to be involved if only to make sure that the spouse is Ok and even more so his son is safe.

I do agree that the wife needs to get into safe custody and quickly.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:08 PM

I'd also suggest getting in touch with the police if you still haven't heard anything. You probably want to avoid escalating this, or turningit into a 'big deal', but it IS a big deal. If you haven't already, call the police.

Gather your family and trusted friends close, If you don't have enough real world shoulders to lean on, PM me to talk. I'm not a parent, and I've already given my best advice, but I can sure listen.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:13 PM

Anonymous Member,

I truly hope all this gets resolved as quickly as possible, for everyones sake.

I also seriously doubt any court worth their salt would give custody rights without supervision to your husband, due to his mental state of mind.

His aggression may have been even more so triggered by lack of alcohol, if it is as you say, he hides it from his son. Get as much help locally as you can, explain to the police and eveyone you have rung up, that you fear for the both of them, not just your son, therefore if anyone is sheltering them, but may have heard a different story than what you have given, then like any frightened child, or animal, the softly softly approach seems the safest. Even if it is just until you get your son back.

I agree that it would be best to find them asap, I don't want to frighten you any more than your distress now, but on rare occasions it is dangerous to think "my...won't harm...." as a persons mental state cn be unpredictable.

I feel your pain having been in similar DV situation myself with kids involved. Take strength and get as much legal back up as you can. Help is out there, do not be afraid to use it, now is the time to go get.

All my thoughts, and wishes for a speedy positive resolution.

Peace be with you at this time

Nicci.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: open mike
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:22 PM

kendall..most of the "missing children" on milk cartons, and other
notices were taken by thier parent or other family member.
http://www.missingkids.com/

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:33 PM

I really can't add or subtract anything fro what others have allready offered interms of the law, both criminal and civil, but...

...from the description of your home, I'd say that one or both of you need some serious help.. . And it sounds more like hubby to me... There are hording laws in some states where folks who fell compelled to keep every danged magazine, newspaper and grocery list they ever had and pile them up in big piles around the home with only paths to connect rooms... From what you have said, you have been willing to live with such a person as long as he didn't abuse you... In my thinking, the hording in itself is abuse... Folks, especially those with severe mental problems or personality disorders, can't possibly feel better about themselves in such clutter so...

...here is one piece of advice I can offer... While the more critical situation plays out, use your time box up all the crap and write with a magic marker on the box approximately what is in each box... Then take one roon in your house and pile all the boxes in it and straighten up the rest of the house to suit your tastes...

Okay, so hubby comes home and says, "Awww, shucks, Billy Jean, I was just havin' a bad day and blah, blah, blah and I want to come home."

Then you say: "Okay, Pal, first of all you need to get a recertification from the anger amnagement folks and, BTW, see this house??? Should you complete the anger management piece this is the way ***our*** house is going to look from here out!!! Get it ??? Now go talk with the anger management folks and keep me posted..."

My thinking is that given that hubby has decided to move out for a wahile that gives you some leverage you may of maynot have aver had...

Good luck and play smart...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:40 PM

I used to work for Victim Support and went on training sessions dealing with domestic violence. It is a very complicated situation and there are many reasons why women don't leave an abusive partner after the first attack.

Quite often it is because before the first physical attack they will have been 'kept in line' by the abuser who will have lowered their self esteem in whatever way possible. Many of these women may have come from abusive homes and really have no idea that such behaviour is not normal. Others believe in the sanctity of marriage and that they should do anything to keep the family together. Some just don't know that they have somewhere to go and, maybe in some places, there are no shelters. Trust me, if leaving home means no home and no means of support that can be a very strong inducement for putting up with the abuse.

The last thing that AM needs to hear no is that she is, in some way, to blame for what is happening. The problem is her partners - her need is to take care of her son first and foremost.

A little compassion would go a long way, GUEST 4:38.

Anonymous Member - if you need to talk please PM me. Like the others who have offered I can listen. Take care.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:43 PM

jacqui i save my compassion for bona fide people in a bona fide world. This does not ring true.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 05:44 PM

Open Mike,
I'd be willing to bet a huge amount of those missing kids have parents who are divorced or are in the process. I have to agree with Kendall on this one. There is no separation and no custody agreement so there is no kidnapping. Right now it is simply a father out somewhere with his son. I'm not saying he's in the right or even that the child is safe because I don't know this person. But legally I don't understand how you can call it kidnapping...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Different guest
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:13 PM

From the description being given by Anon Member, the father is a custodial parent, living in the home. No mention has been made of restraining orders, a legal separation, etc.

Hence, this isn't kidnapping even if he does take the child across state lines (no brainer, that one). The father is a custodial parent and has the legal right to take the child into any state they want to, and has been gone for less than 24 hrs with the child after an argument with his wife.

First, if this story is true, people here are guilty of over-reacting and talking through their hats, as they haven't a clue what the legal ramifications of the circumstances are anyway.

Second, anyone who is getting "advice" from an internet chat forum under the circumstance, must be suffering from severe mental illness. Rather than talking with police, perhaps they should consider ringing up a good mental health professional.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Concerned friend
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:16 PM

Yes, there is a real world, and yes, this story is part of it. I've talked to a fellow mudcatter who is not a participant but close to the situation and father and son have been located and everyone is now safe.

Your support and care have been very important and i'm sure we will hear from AM when things settle a bit.Your concern has been truely appreciated.
Thank You

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:17 PM

Guest 05.43, you are obviously living in a world which I seriously doubt rings true.

I wish I lived in ypour world guest, but I live in the REAL world.

Bad things happen guest - it is part of life, some people unfortunately are dealt with a much harsher hand than others.

It is at these times the victims of life need help, support, and good friends not criticism and judgements.

Please, if you cannot say anything nice or supportive, don't say anything at all. This is not the place for derogative comments, given the seriousness of the situation that a member of mudcat is needing help and support with.

I applause this member for having the courage to tell us her situation, which must not have been easy for her to do. BTW Anonymous member, PM if you wish.

My thoughts are with you.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Yellow
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:20 PM

I think a lot has been said here that is good advice - so I wish you good judgement in this. Remember we will still be here for the comforting words.

Two thoughts FWIW 1) you may already be aware of alcohol dementia - temporary amnesia etc - seen after years of booze abuse. 2) It is reasonably well documented that about 7 days after smoking pot there is often an aggresive phase. Though an aquaintance reckoned it was 5, then 12 days in her spouse's case, but maybe he was topping-up after the first kicked-in. Of course this depends on dosage.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13 PM Different guest
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:23 PM

Oh please. Now we've heard it all.

I'm with 02 Jan 07 - 05:43 PM. This sounds as real as a three dollar bill.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:23 PM

It may not be kidnapping but it seems to me that if you intentionally or recklessly detain someone, its abduction. Whether or not the child went willingly, is another matter. The father has prevented the mother from reasonable access to the child by leaving without notification.

Regardless of how the law views this scenario, the mom must notify the police to protect her son's rights as well as her own. If the husband is as unstable as it appears, she should also warn the police that he could be violent.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:33 PM

You can't "detain" your own child. The child didn't even have to go willingly. A parent can "force" their child to go with them. If that were against the law, most of us would have been up before the High Court by now!

As to "prevented the mother from reasonable access to the child"--what on earth are you talking about?

There is no restraining order, no legal separation with sole custody granted to the mother--just what do you suppose the police can do in a circumstance like this?

The claim is the mother left the house first, after arguing with the father. At the time of my email above, it hadn't even been 24 hours, yet everyone here had leapt on a lemming bandwagon suggesting that the father was guilty of all sorts of ridiculousness, based on an anonymous story in an internet chat forum.

What is WRONG with you people? Besides being dangerous and gullible, that is?

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: open mike
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:39 PM

i hope it is true that they are home safe,
or at least located. I wonder if any of the
places they went to on thier previous travel
were re-visited after they left again?

perhaps it is fortunate that this is
happening at the new year, and there
can be a "resolution" to take care of
clutter....i will try to resolve to do
the same!~

good luck and hang in there.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Pelrad
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:42 PM

Concerned Friend,

Please make sure your friend wipes out anything on her computer that leads to these posts. I know several people whose DV situation escalated because the spouse found their posts on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Cobble
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:50 PM

Guest I presume you are a 10 year old poking your nose into grown-up things go and change your nappie.

                Cobble.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13/6:23/6:33 PM
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 06:56 PM

Somebody going by the handles "Anonymous Member" and "Concerned Friend" are jerking some chains, which is pretty damn juvenile.

And the way they are choosing to do it is pretty disgusting, too.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:00 PM

Yes they are and it isn't the first time they have done it.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:02 PM

NAPPY.....COBBLERS

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13, etc
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

Hopefully this Anon Member person will follow my advice, and seek the help of a mental health professional.

If this is a false story, they need the help of mental health professional, and if this is a true story, they need the help of a mental health professional.

Either way, they don't need these dangerous, well-intentioned Mudcat hysteria mongers to ratchet up their already acute paranoia level, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:13 PM

Even if this was not real, I would not take back what I have posted, as people heave certainly shown their true feelings when confronted with a situation like this.

Bearing in mind that the thread was started by someone anonymous, I know from the replies which catters I would be able to rely on if ever there was I time I am in need, and who I would like to be near when in an emergency.

I would rather be a gullible human, than a cynical cold fish any day.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Hawker
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:15 PM

Whoever you are, anonymous member, be you real or made up, I send you my kindest thoughts and hope that everything gets better for you. If this is a real situation, I am not qualified to offer any help excepting my love and sympathy for your situation, there have been a lot of wise words said here already and it is ultimately you who knows what is best for you. If this is a made up scenario I offer you my love and compassion for needing to do this. There are a lot of Lovely caring and beautiful people on this site and I am sure like me they send you the wish for peace and calm that you so obviously deserve.
With love,
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:16 PM

Really gizmo? If you ever find yourself in a similar situation and can only get help from an internet forum then do the decent thing and hand your child over to the authorities as you would be as deranged as the person starting this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 07:49 PM

I never said I would do the same in a similar situation, only that whatever situation occurs be you online or in real world, there are still a few individuals that would help someone in need without question to how it would enhance their own egos.

And I have found out since, which catters are good souls and who care

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:04 PM

Gizmo all you have found out is which mudcatters have such egos they actually swallowed this crock of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13, etc
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:14 PM

This will likely come as a great shock to many contributors to this thread but, at one time, rather than a support group for the dysfunctional among us, this forum used to be about the discussion of music.

And actually, the vast majority of music chat forums actually limit what is discussed to--shock and awe!--MUSIC!

Oh, what the fuck is my point...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:20 PM

Well, Guest 6:33pm...I am the original Mudcat skeptic ( BillD can guess who I am), and I too thought this might be a windup but my advice stands and the advice and comment is based on what is presented. Mudcatters have been hosed many times by individuals making up stories to present. So they give advice, so what? Someone else can use somewhere, sometime, someplace.    (Guest, 3:20pm, goofing off)

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,6:13, etc.
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:32 PM

Well, considering that Bill D doesn't post much anymore, and just reappeared today...could it be Bill D is the poster referred to by Guest 4:44?

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

Nothing wrong in that at all. And equally nothing wrong in those of us who KNOW it is a sicko fantasy calling it as it is.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:34 PM

I can see you haven't been around here very long....(Guest, 3:20pm)

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:37 PM

No it wasn't Bill D. But it was a ember that you all love and trust.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:39 PM

I can make a wild guess who the 'sceptic' is

I can't believe anyone would work that hard and make up that much as a joke....

It must be assumed it is real.....

This is a community of those who share a music forum!..We have history for a number of years of helping, advising, supporting and supporting members with problems. Good advice has been offered, and some thoughtless, insensitive replies tossed in.

To those who are perpetually cynical & critical of those who ask for help here, I am glad YOU are so self-sufficient and strong....so go away and let those willing to help do so.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 08:42 PM

and if it is any business of yours, 6:13, I have been busy, had a cold, and am TRYING to be careful where I post...but I have been here 10 years & 3 months, and am not about to leave.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:09 PM

Well, apart from these so-called "GUESTs" running away with such a serious subject, let me just say the the police and members of fire departments don't sit around and debate whether a call is authentic or not. They respond and respond as though the situation is exactly that which was reported. And so too here. My experienced advice stands. Your one and only duty right now is to the safety of your son and yourself. Everything else can be worked out later. This goes for anybody who is in an abusive situation.

Jacqui is right. Abuse usually begins very subtley and is almost always psychologically controlling. The abuser seeks to isolate his or her victims. Shame can be a powerful component or tool to this end, hence the messy house that he will not tolerate being cleaned. The abuser himself is probably unaware of his tactics because this behavior was learned in their own abused childhood. Only a psychopath would intentionally set out to be abusive. The neurotic abuser can, however, slip over into the pyschotic side of things and then there is extreem danger...this is why you can't take chances or make believe and it is also why you should ignore any other advice to the contrary.

I hope you find the strength to do the right thing. This goes for anyone in an abusive relationship and it can and does happen to males also.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jan 07 - 10:38 PM

Oh puhleaze - Mudcat the 4th emergency service? You are being yanked.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:13 AM

My heartfelt thanks to those of you who have offered what I asked for--ears to listen. I think, before this is over, I'll be pm'ing more than a few of you who have offered that, especially some of you have been through similar situations and know just how hard it is to put this in motion, then stay the course.

    An update, because I won't be pm'ing everyone who has reached out and lent a helping hand to me on this thread.

    My son is home with me, and his Dad, sadly, is in jail for the night. I just finished writing out the petition for a restraining order that the domestic violence counsellor at the Sheriff's office gave me to bring home to complete. I have to be in court at 9:00 this morning to file it.

    I am exausted, scared, more relieved than words can say that my son is safe and at home, and very, very sad.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:23 AM

Get a good night's sleep. I read this yesterday but didn't respond--you were getting some good advice from others (I disagree that Mudcat isn't the place to bring this--anyone who posts here knows they're not coming for private binding legal advice, but for a shoulder to cry on and a friendly ear and sometimes for darned good recommendations).

Keep thorough records, be consistent with your son and with your husband, and make sure you file the papers. The morning light may make things seem different, less urgent. That is an illusion.

Good luck.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 02:36 AM

So it's all happening - it is scary isn't it. Many years later, I still remember how it felt - you wonder if you will have the strength to keep on going, but you do.

You are taking the appropriate action, and it will work out because you are making it work out. You will find courage and strength you didn't know you had!

Do keep coming back here for moral support, and as I said before, feel free to PM me any time. I know what you're going through.

More energy coming from Oz,

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:29 AM

Just a quick point

DELETE your browser history - if in doubt, open the history pane, expand mudcat, right click on any instances of this kind of thread, and select delete. Repeat till all done.

long term use of Pot can present with paranoia. It is more than apocrophal. Given the situation it would spark more trouble if the evidence were to be found. Paranoia would make it more likely he would look for it.

Best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Hawker
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:06 AM

Big hug to you and your son, hope all turns out well. There ARE poeople here who care and we are all thinking of you
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: MBSLynne
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:10 AM

Good luck. I'm so relieved that your son is home safe. Keep us posted please.

If this were a made up story, I think the best thing the people who believe it to be so could do is stop reading it. You may think that to be the case, but you can't be sure, and, as jacqui (I think) says, the last thing a person who has been abused needs to be told is that it's their fault or that they are making it up. One of the big problems of domestic abuse is that the victim convinces themselves that they are at fault.

Some of us aren't really bothered if we are being set up. It makes no fools of us to show that we are caring people whatever the situation, and these things happen too often for it not to ring horribly true.

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:13 AM

I've only just seen this post. I'm glad it looks as though you are sorting yourself out and that you have help from local and professional people, as well as the emotional support of the wonderful Catters. It's a great community to belong to in times of crisis.

Please don't be downhearted over the negative posts here, indeed try to ignore them, although I know that is hard.

You have a lot of offers of PMs here and I would offer mine too. Whatever you say will, I assure you, go no further.

Good luck in all your endeavours. Keep yourself and your son safe and be good to yourself too.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Red
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 07:45 AM

The roller coaster has reached a flat - hang on for the next descent - we are still here. I found long ago, the one thing we observers take from this is - "well at least I don't have that problem" and that gives us something. Thanks for sharing it.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Tinker
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:12 AM

Good Morning ! One step at a time and keep walking ( and talking) Give your son a couple of extra hugs from all of us and keep a few for yourself. Follow the link and click on number 2 when you need a smile and a pep talk.

Don't Mess with Me I'm Somebody's Mother

Keep in touch

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: kendall
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:27 AM

When I left my first wife she declared. "You are not taking MY daughter." Not OUR daughter, MY daughter.
Typical mother.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:30 AM

What a relief for you that you have your son home again and safe. It sounds as if you have got things just a little on track right now.

One of the other things I learned from the training sessions I had was that, when things calm down the abusive partner can be very good at using whatever tactics necessary to get back into the relationship. The use of contrition toward the abused partner is very well known and the cry of "It won't happen again" may soften the resolve.

Problem is, it will happen again and the behaviour is not going to change. In your case your partner has been through the Domestic Violence programme and it didn't stick. He has used drink and drugs for many years. The likelihood is that he will continue to behave in a way that is bad for you and your son. Because of the way in which abusers manipulate their victims it may be difficult for you to resist his pleadings. Just remember that his situation is of his own making, for whatever reason, and that you CANNOT change him. Whatever happens to him from now on is down to him. He is the only person who can change his life and move on but he won't if you let him back into your life.

Now that your son is fully aware of the problem your best course of action is to make sure that the rest of his childhood is as safe and secure as you can make it and to break the chain that might continue into the next generation if he was to accept his home life as the norm.

There are people here who have done this - it isn't easy and you will need all the support you can find, as will your son. At some point family counselling may be of use and I'm sure that the Domestic Violence Counsellor at the Sheriffs office would be able to point you in the right direction.

Good luck and give your son a hug from me.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Alba
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:00 AM

Anon Member.

All I can offer you right now is {{{{{{hugs}}}}}} and the offer of a PM if you need to download.

Sending strength your way for the day ahead and a candle is lit as a type for you All.
Love and Light and more power to you.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Alba
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:55 AM

correction...

"Candle is lit as I type!

**small smile**
Love
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:04 AM

From my side of that conversation dad, I was told "Your father left US". Not "Me", "US". But then, mother was always a big of a whack-job.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:10 AM

that should be "a bit" not "a big"

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 11:27 AM

Dear Anonymous Member, thanks for the update. I'm glad your son is home safe, and I wish you strength to get through the rest of this.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:03 PM

I'm glad your son is back, and my thoughts are with you for the future.

Take care and be safe. - Whatever steps are necessary to ensure you of that.

My thoughts and well wishes for you.

Nic

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 01:38 PM

I am very happy to hear that you have been re-united with your son.

This roller-coaster ride is not over. Continue to seek help and support in the community. Document everything. Get a lawyer.

...and yes, beware of the abusive husband that will try to convince you that he will change and that 'things' will be different.

Remind your son that you both love him and that this problem is between you and your husband. Tell him that as his mother, you will do whatever is necessary to provide a better quality of life for him. Be vigilant. Children often blame themselves for family strife.

Remember that this is just a blip on the big screen of life. It too, will pass in time.

Good luck to you.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 03:28 PM

Anonymous Member, I'm just seeing this thread for the first time today, and am very relieved to see that your son has been found and is back home, safely, with you. I'm also impressed that your husband ended up in jail last night; this would seem to negate the comments on this thread about his not having done anything wrong in the process of disappearing with your son in tow. Just a wild guess here, but I have to wonder whether "disorderly conduct" or "resisting arrest" might have been part of the reason for his incarceration.

Around here (the Philadelphia PA area), they issue Amber Alerts quite often, and usually for incidents of child abduction that had occurred just an hour or two before the alert. For the uninitiated, an "Amber Alert" is a notification via the local broadcast media (radio, television, the websites of those stations, lighted signs on the PA and NJ turnpikes, and some cellphone providers) of the abduction along with any available descriptions of the child, abductor, vehicle, license plate number, etc., and a phone number to call. Most of these local alerts result in the return of the child because, in our soundbite-saturated culture, a LOT of people are listening and hence are on the lookout for the kid. Sometimes the abductor simply gives him/herself up, knowing that there's no place to hide. A.M., had I been reading your thread when you first posted, I would have advised you to call the police immediately and let them decide what steps were necessary to take (including the possibility of issuing your state's equivalent of an Amber Alert, and deciding how wide an area should be notified). They should have been the ones to tell you whether your husband was guilty of kidnapping in your state, not a bunch of Mudcatters from other states and countries.

As it is, I understand your desire to "talk" to the forum and seek advice while trying to calm down and organize her thoughts. However, it distresses me to see that posting here was a step you took before talking to your relatives and nearby friends, or to your husband's relatives, and long before talking to the police. The fact that a women's shelter or domestic-violence center hotline didn't even occur to you is especially worrisome, and even more so in the light of the documented abuse by your husband in the past and counseling he'd received. Why depend on the "kindness of strangers" here (or, in the case of some of the posters here, not-so-kind-ness), and the randomness of the possibility of receiving good advice depending on who was reading the thread at the time, when the situation demanded the more "pro-active" action that the more responsible posters advised?

Perhaps, as some have suggested, it's the result of having suffered your husband's long-term emotional abuse, volatility and intimidation, always with the specter of the past physical abuse looming and threatening to come back to life (as it finally did!). Nothing like being made to second-guess yourself all the time (ever see the movie "Gaslight"?). All too often, it takes some sort of action on the part of the abuser that "crosses the line" -- shoving, breaking a nose, or (in my own case) dragging the abusee across the floor by the skin of her arm -- to force the abusee to action. BUT (!!!) who drew that line, and where? In other words, the abuser has long since crossed society's line for decent behavior, but he terrifies his target into retreating and drawing new, arbitrary lines that he continues to cross until the abusee is cornered and has no place left to retreat to, and no ground left on which to draw a new line.

Unfortunately, it's human nature to give your loved one the benefit of the doubt and to be hopeful that things are "improving" simply because his behavior is temporarily less outrageous than the day before. A.M., your rationalization that you "don't think my son is at risk riding in the car with" a man you just said was "a heavy closet drinker and pot smoker" only because you detected "no alcohol on his breath when they arrived home" (not exactly a scientific analysis -- closet drinkers hide the evidence of their habit!). even though you'd just been shoved by him, he'd just broken a "sturdy" plastic file-box, and you had no idea what he was drinking or smoking after you left to drive around the block and after he took off for God-knows-where with your son... that rationalization was deeply, deeply disturbing to me. As others have said, you need counseling to counteract the effects of abuse and to stop rationalizing it away. You need to learn to pay attention to your instinct to seek help, to validate that instinct, and to overcome your doubts and fears about using the resources available to you in your community (not just the Mudcat "community"!).

At least you finally took some steps in the right direction, and soon enough to get your son back. You have a long, hard fight ahead of you... but then, you had a long, hard fight behind you, too. Now you three have a chance to change your lives for the better. Hope you can get your husband on some medication to control his impulses and ADD, and that you and your son grow in strength together. All the best of... not "luck", but love and support... to all of you!

Sharon

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:41 PM

I'm not sure that we have a real abuse victim here--there was violence--, even by her own account, the poster escalated a verbal exchange to physical violence by throwing objects--and she admits that she was thowing things when she was grabbed and pushed--this is a toxic relationship, but I'll bet the otherside of it is just as compelling--

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 04:43 PM

My guess would have to be that he "spent the night in jail" for hitting her, not for driving around with his son...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:02 PM

I don't think conjectures and speculation are of much help, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:17 PM

Guest - 04:41 PM

Can you point me to where "by her own account, the poster escalated a verbal exchange to physical violence by throwing objects--and she admits that she was thowing things when she was grabbed and pushed...." because I cant see it anywhere...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 05:29 PM

Glad to hear that the situation seems to be on the road to resolution. Good luck with the outcome and for all concerned. SharonA, I can understand Anonymous turning to the one place she felt she could get calmed down and begin to think straight. See my previous comments on isolation. Going through experiences like this is, for some, one of the most devastating things that can happen to you. Why else all the denial and cover up? Your whole world, that which you have built your life around, is coming apart. Who do you turn to? Family may not understand. They may have had no clue, or at least you may feel that way. And who is thinking clearly at all in such an upheaval? Nor is it over once the physical and legal issues are resolved. I know from personal experience that the emotional and psychological after effects can continue on for years and for some a lifetime if not dealt with professionally.

The biggest temptation is to just quit once the immediate problem is relieved: to think "things are OK now. I can deal with it." The truth is you have just gone througha major ESCALATION of the problem and broken things seldom, if ever, just fix themselves. DON'T QUIT. Follow through. Do what ever it takes but follow this thing through. Until you are safe and can stand autonomously, your not through. Plenty of support here in cyberspace but you need someone physically at hand to help you deal with the situation and its aftermath. Keep going and God bless.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:04 PM

The overwhelming concensus of opinion here seems to be that the spouse shoulders all responsibility for the predicament Anonymous finds herself in. The other side of the story will probably never be revealed on this forum, which is a strange place indeed to unburden oneself and invite all and sundry to give advice. Concern for the child is paramount in a situation such as this and his welfare should take priority, with professional help. However well meaning the advice given here by sincere, concearned posters or friends, it can cause more harm than good if the advice taken is even a fraction off.
The spouse must also be confused and hurting and I wish them all good luck on the hard road ahead.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SharonA
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:07 PM

Slag, if this is the one place where A.M. felt she could go to get calmed down and begin to think straight, it does indeed speak volumes about her sense of isolation in the midst of abuse. I still find it quite distressing, though.

I don't mean to be a Monday-morning quarterback about this incident, but simply to say to anyone who might find him/herself in a similar situation in the future that: (a) there's a time factor involved in finding a child who has been taken by an adult, so (as hard as it may be to do) one needs to put one's doubts and fears into abeyance and concentrate on notifying the people who can realistically help find the child; and (b) local counselors (police, women's shelter personnel, etc.) have the training and experience to give assistance and advice in such situations, so one has a better chance of finding the help one needs, sooner, than an internet forum that includes posters who don't know the local laws, who question one's story and motives, or who are otherwise unhelpful (and may even deter one from seeking help when one reads that he/she is not being believed).

Sounds like A.M. has her head on straight enough to ignore the nay-sayers here, and that she even has close local friends who are also Mudcatters. I'm happy to see that. But the next person in distress who starts such a thread may not have those strengths to lean on, and reading the less-kind posts may make things worse instead of better. So what I'm saying is that, though Mudcat does have some very kind and caring posters, the forum should not be treated as one's "first responder" in emergencies.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,A practical man
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 06:56 PM

Change the locks.

Sleep (mostly clothed) with a baseball bat.
Don't hesitate to use it.

Keep your son in the same room as you at night.

Keep the dog in at night, he'll probably poison it.

You may or may not be morally right (hell, who cares), but you stand a better chance of safety.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 08:58 PM

"I got mad, went and got one of the boxes and said "Here, I'll save you the trouble", and bent over to dump it back in the corner it had come from..........When I bent over, Spouse jumped up from the sofa, grabbed me by the wrist and jerked my away from the box, then shoved me across the room."

According to her account, she had a box of her husband's belongings in her hands and was in the process of throwing it when he got up from the sofa, grabbed her wrist and pushed her away.

I don't know how accurate her account is because I wasn't there--but I am hard-pressed to see that as a jailable offence.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:24 PM

"bent over to dump it back in the corner it had come from.........." Doesn't sound to me like it was about to be thrown at him.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 09:36 PM

Sounds a bit self-serving--intent explained after the fact--

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:00 PM

Dumping a box of someone's stuff is a far cry from physically assaulting them which he apparently did to her. The minute he laid his hands on her it was assault.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:28 PM

There has been some excellent advice, some that is so so, and the following:

"Sleep (mostly clothed) with a baseball bat.
Don't hesitate to use it."

Then the child will have no father and a mother doing time. I am trying to think of a word. Maybe best not to.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Disgusted Onlooker
Date: 03 Jan 07 - 10:59 PM

How can you compare two acts that you didn't see? You don't even know who is telling the story, let alone whether their description is a fair account of what happened. We don't any of us know what happened. Still, we're all taking sides, and arguing over the details.

Even worse, though, we are all getting emotionally involved--venting real anger, not just at the victim and the perpetrator, but at each other.   My advice is to ignore everything that's been said and run like hell.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Partridge
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 04:33 PM

I hope all goes well from now on. Ignore thise who have posted with negative responses. They have problems of their own. I wish you well.
love
Pat xxx

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 04:40 PM

I do not know about USA law, but, "assault" under U/K law can be well before:-
"The minute he laid his hands on her it was assault".

We have had a case through the courts over a telephone assault, bringing fear into another's life or space is assault over here (and so it should be)
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:14 PM

In US an assualt is a credible threat. That can include lifting a hand meanacingly. Battery is the actual unwanted touching.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:21 PM

Whoo - I do hope the anonymous poster took the first tranche of advice and is ignoring the latest redneck lunacy.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: skipy
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:28 PM

GUEST, to what do you refer?
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:57 PM

I think the practical man may well be right.

There was a period when I was getting (real) death threats from a piece of scum (stupid enough to leave death threats on my mobile phone messaging service, duh) happily since deceased, and I slept with a butcher's cleaver. Better alive and in the nick than dead.

If you have a weapon, use it. Otherwise it gets used on you.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 05:57 PM

Whew. Glad the child is home. Spouse going to jail may be the best thing that happened to him - and to our Temporarily Anonymous member (when I posted something after losing custody of my kids, there was none of this thread creep into is the poster a creep, I might add, and I got a *lot* of support, so I'm glad Anon came here, wish I'd seen the post sooner, sounds terrifying) because now, maybe he'll see that it isn't just the Wife who has these ideas of how things ought to be, but Reality, and get some help. For both of them.

Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:35 PM

Seems to me that Anon Member is female, Spouse is male.
"When he walked into the living room, he first commented on how good it looked, then asked, sounding rational, what I had done with his 'piles.' I started to tell him, and then he went....."

Many he, him, his.....

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:46 PM

Violence is the last resort of the incompetent ( or so I've heard). Being armed is a tremendous responsibility and knowing when to produce a weapon has a LOT of legal ramifications. If a woman has some weapon other than a gun, nine times out of ten that weapon will be taken from them as used on them. Sorry ladies by this is one area where there is really no such thing as equality. Using a weapon to threaten or warn off is also a bad idea for the same reasons. If you take an armed self defense class one of the first things you learn is that when you produce a weapon it takes the conflict to a whole new level. You must be competent in the use of the weapon and absolutely ready, willing and able to use it. That weapon should be the last thing in this life that your assailant will ever see. Period. Otherwise leave weapons out of it. Use the legal process. Use the anonymity of the Women's Shelter. Restraining order are sometimes effective if the other person is rational. If you know in your heart that no court order will stop the person do whatever it takes to defend your life and those of your threatened loved ones. It's easier to get out of jail than it is a graveyard.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 07:52 PM

Best thing a woman can use as a weapon, besides her voice, is a can of spray paint aimed at the face. It's not lethal, so cannot be used to kill her and once it hits the assailant's eyes, if they are holding her, they immediately turn loose and grab for their own face, thus giving her time to scream, run away, hit over the head, kick in the privates or whatever else she can learn in self defense classes.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jeffp
Date: 04 Jan 07 - 08:40 PM

Virtually anything in a spray can, including deodorant or hair spray can be effective sprayed in the face.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Slag
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:15 AM

Dear Kat and jeffp, I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: MBSLynne
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:44 AM

My Mum always told me that to kick a man in the privates was not a good idea, because if you didn't manage a really good kick, enough to floor him, he'd kill you. She said the best self defense was index and middle finger held stiff and poked with force into his eyes. Then run like hell....

Love Lynne

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:15 AM

MBSLynne - Your mum was right! Don't forget to scream while all of this is going on.

Slag, I totally agree, "If you know in your heart that no court order will stop the person do whatever it takes to defend your life and those of your threatened loved ones."

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:36 AM

the UK legal definition of assualt is threat - usually physical like raising an arm agressively. Battery requires physical contact.

the phrase "assualt and battery" has confused these definitions outside the legal context.

not sure where sprays come in all of this.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Captain Ginger
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:41 AM

In the UK sprays would be covered by the Offences Against the Person Act, but the user would probably claim self-defence. And stand a better chance of succeeding in that than if she took a knife or a baseball bat to the fellow. Absurd as it seems, violence has to be 'proportional'.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:45 AM

There are many different ways taught in self-defense classes, at least the ones my daughters and I took. The first defense recommended was one's voice, in a VERY LOUD manner, as loud as possible. Preferably before an attack even gets near to you. While other body parts were mentioned, I do remember kicking in the privates as one of them.

Years ago when I wrote an op/ed column, I did a lot of research on this and that's where the can of spray paint came up.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 05:51 AM

spray paint at least helps identify the attacker for the next few hours.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:56 AM

Hairspray which is strong enough to clean biro off a table, is much more stingier for the eyes. And don't hold back. It has been recommended by many police also to use that method (over here in UK schools anyway), as it is not officially a weapon and cannot be done for it using it as such - any woman with a sense of style (grins) should have one in their bag (even if it is just for defense reasons alone), It is a good way of buying time you may not have had. Or while they are at a surprise form hairspray in the eyes a bloody good opportunity to get a strong kick in the nuts to bring them down and a whack on the back of the neck - done in the correct spot would KO them completely, thus giving you enough time to get the hell outta there - making sure you get enough attention also!

If worse comes to the worse, bite, pull hair, scratch etc - do what you can and don't hold back. You're fighting for your life - which is worth fighting for!

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Becca72
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 09:58 AM

The strongest point of your body is the elbow...I've been told that a very good defense is to elbow the person in the bridge of the nose. Hurts like hell, causes eyes to water and you can bolt when they let go to grab their face.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jeffp
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:11 AM

Tell you what, Slag. Spray yourself in the face with your eyes open and get back to us on that.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:32 AM

a very good defense is to elbow the person in the bridge of the nose

Bit hard if you're an average height woman to reach the bridge of an average height man's nose with your elbow. You'd have to kick him in the nuts first to make him bend down.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:43 AM

Still awaiting word on whether or not AM needs all this violent advice.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Captain Ginger
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:44 AM

Oh dear, I think I need to sit down and cross my immaculately-trousered legs. I can feel my eyes beginning to water.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 11:54 AM

The truth is that in violent confrontations, the first person to land a strike is usually the one who prevails. And if your survival depends on getting a can of hairspray to go off in someone's eyes, you're chances of survival are not very good.

And, Becca72, when you are attacked, you get a rush of adrenalin and related chemicals that impairs your fine motor control, and restricts your field of vision, and, gives the sensation that your legs have been knocked out from under you--you're going to be hardpressed to get that elbow line up with anything, let alone the bridge of an attacker's nose.

No matter how well you have been trained in martial arts and self-defense, when the violence begins, all bets on the outcome are off.

The ways to avoid being a victim to violence are simple, and not violent(simple but not necessarily easy):

1) stay out of reach,
2) learn how to keep confrontations from escalating ,
3) minimize your exposure to dangerous situations,
4)When you are going to be exposed, have your escape options planned in advance.


I have a lot of concern for Anonymous Guest--by all appearances, she is married to a dangerous, volatile, individual, and is the victim of both physical and psychological abuse. Yes, it is wrong, and no, she doesn't deserve it. (Just in case some of you think I somehow or another am defending her husband, I'm not)--

He is troubled (and trouble), and innocent things set him off--my concern was that even after twenty years, she still didn't realize that she had put herself in a perilous situation--the result being that he got the drop on her.

Twenty years of marriage, a home, and a child, are all incentives to "forgive and forget" and ignore the implications--especially since the ways out of this dangerous situation are not clearly marked or easy to negotiate. AM, please remember to get and keep yourself, and your son, out of harm's reach--

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 12:26 PM

M.Ted, just LIVING with some people is a perilous situation. This kind of person is unpredictable. Something that seems okay one time, might set them off next time. There are no guaranteed methods of avoiding upsetting someone like that, short of having nothing to do with them. I think it's remarkable that something like this had not happened earlier. I've been through a similar situation with my ex, and believe me, there is no RIGHT way to act with a person like that.

You think that 20 years of living with him should have given her the ability to know what would set him off? I'm afraid it doesn't work that way. Your implication that she could have avoided the situation by acting differently, makes me angry. You don't understand enough, and the last thing she needs to hear now is that she could have done better. No, she did the best she could. And she is probably out there now taking care of business and doing the best things she can for herself and her son.

I understand your concern that she might weaken and "forgive and forget" - it's a valid concern. You can't go through years of this without your self-esteem taking a beating. I know mine did at the time. That is why what she needs most from us is support and positive feedback, and the best thing we can do is give it to her.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:35 PM

The advice given re violence was not advocating it - just if anyone finds themselves in a violent situation whereby running is not an option.

I vote for running all the time, yet this has not prevented violence happening to me. I did manage to crawl out of a violent relationship - but only with the great support of friends, and it has taken me years to regain the self respect I have for myself now.

I was also in a situation, years later whereby I was being dragged by two men down a side street. Shouting managed to frighten one enough to be wary, yet the other one carried on. In this situation I was glad that my fighting instinct came through - I'm barely 5 foot tall, these men were at least a foot taller - I had no choice in this situation but to fight. Sometimes you have to, and the thought of preserving your life - by whatever means is the only thought in your brain.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 01:47 PM

I was taught that kicking an attacker in the balls only enrages him.

I was also taught that your best defense is to go for the eyes because the attacker will instinctively let go to protect or cover his eyes.

I'm very worried about some of the advice being given here.

Any weapon that you attempt to use can be used on you.

Its much easier to remember to scream, poke and/or scratch and run.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 02:43 PM

I am one of those whose reaction is considered unsympathetic, insensitive and unhelpful. That is all right with me. Until and unless we have further information I'll stand by my judgment.

Here is the sum total of what she told us (emphasis and comments mine:

"...he went off on a rant, informing me he was going to move it all back tomorrow, screaming and cursing me. (verbal, not physical)

"I got mad, went and got one of the boxes and said "Here, I'll save you the trouble", and bent over to dump it back in the corner it had come from. (I know, real mature of me *sigh*). I wasn't aware, because he was behind me, but in the meantime, my son had come into the room to see what the yelling was about. When I bent over, Spouse jumped up from the sofa, grabbed me by the wrist and jerked my (me)away from the box, then shoved me across the room (No hitting, no threats to kill or even harm) .

"Next, he picked up the box and flung it across the room, breaking the box and scattering the contents.(taking out his anger on an inanimate object)? I was completely shocked and frightened and considered calling the police, but he didn't come toward me after that (i.e. responded appropriately), and I told him I would call the police if he laid another hand on me."

Then she left to calm down. He did not impede her departure, did not threaten her, did not threaten to burn the house down, did not threaten to harm their child.

While she was gone, HE left- perhaps to calm down himself?

I agree that the whole scenario was violent and aggressive, which is upsetting, especially given her 20-year history with the man. But not once did she say that she was in fear. Rather, she was shocked and outraged at his reaction.

Frankly, my guess is that she is surprised at the Mudcat's over-reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:05 PM

JennyO--I didn't mean it that way-though in reading my original post(the one near the top, it seems like I did)--what I meant, was more like--"You are in danger!! You can't tell, even after twenty years, what is going to set him off"--as you say, just living with some people is perilous--and often, it takes people with toxic partners a long time to realize what their true situation is--

Sometimes, people with mental illness use their instability as a lever to manipulate people. And they use the unpredictability of their outbursts as a way of controlling the people around them. Not that they are pretending to lose control illness, it's just that they have learned to channel it--

Not sure if that is the case here, but it is clear that AM lives in a climate of fear that has existed for a long time--I think she has been a victim for a long time, and she has to find a way out.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:30 PM

Ebbie, what you've emphasized in A.M.'s comments is what I characterized as her rationalizing away a violent situation. She's the one doing the minimalizing, but I think it can be inferred from the fact that he disappeared with the child for more than a few hours without notifying her (and with his cell phone turned off) that he was doing something other than just going off to calm down.

As you and others have said, we don't have the whole story -- including the details of the 20-some years of what she said was his emotional and verbal abuse, as well as alcohol and marijuana abuse. Maybe there's even drug abuse there that she doesn't know about, or isn't telling us about. I don't think we need every minute description of everything they both ever did or felt, in order to be sympathetic. Does she have to say she's afraid in order for us to sense it?

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Jan 07 - 03:34 PM

To further clarify, I think that, if she has been a victim for a long time, she has to examine her role in the relationship, if only to figure out how to stop being a victim.

I knew a guy who liked to say, "You get what you accept." And somebody else said, "Not doing anything is also a choice."

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:01 AM

These remarks are addressed to others who may find themselves in some immediate, time critical crisis, but who, seeing how this thread morphed, might fear reaching out to one immediate possible resource. Don't let it stop you.

I have absolutely no regrets about starting this thread. This thread, as threads do, quickly took on its own character and became irrelevant to me. But the validation and support I garnered from people in this cyber-community right in the immediate moment that I needed it has value beyond measure.

It takes time to mobilize your inner resources and your 3-D resources and supports. Mudcat held my hand until I could get those in place, and that played a critical role in helping me.

This cyber-community is not a substitute for 3-D support. But it can be a vital bridge.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Little Robyn
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:24 PM

Well done AM. How are you getting on now? Is he out of your way forever or are you trying to patch up?
Hang in there kid!
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: skipy
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:37 PM

Keep going AM & keep leaning if you need too, the Cat as nasty as it can be sometimes, really gives a shit!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 04:40 PM

Thanks, AM. We are here, anytime.

All the best and lots of {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}

kat

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: JennyO
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 07:28 PM

Ditto what Kat said, AM. Been kinda busy lately, but still sending you the warm Oz energy - which is particularly WARM today - phew!

And don't believe all that stuff about the comet and death, disease and pestilence, either - especially don't believe a word Rapaire says ;-) I've seen her, and she's all good!

Even the Aussie bushfires serve a purpose - some of our native plants rely on the heat of the fire for their seedpods to burst open so they can regenerate. Sometimes old structures have to be torn down to make way for new ones - from destruction comes rebirth, as embodied by the goddess Kali.

{{{{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}}} from me too.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Gizmo
Date: 19 Jan 07 - 09:15 PM

Yes the same as above from me AM.

I hope things have turned out ok for you, and there are many here on your side.

All the best for the future.

Nicci

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,Anonymous Member
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:09 AM

I am out of the marital relationship, Robyn. I'm firm and clear about that choice. But we will always be in relationship as parents, and will have to find a way to forge a relationship that works for our son.

The road out of the marriage is clear and well lit. With respect to our son, however, there is no road apparent right now. Instead, there is a murky and fog-shrouded sea called 'The the Best Interests of Our Son.' I have a chart, but there isn't much on it. I know it is not in our son's best interests for his Dad and I to stay together. I know it is not in his best interest to be riding in the car with his Dad when Dad is 'under-the-influence.' I know I want our son to have as much of his Dad in his day-to-day life as is 'in his best interests.' But those are the only issues that are absolutely clear. I am consulting with experts, and at my request we are going to start mediation, so there will be some help to navigate these waters. I have full custody. Our son can call his Dad any time he wants. Right now I am allowing visitation two days a week. I hope the time comes when I can comfortably consent to open and flexible visitation, but much will depend on choices his Dad makes about dealing with substance abuse and anger issues.

I know his Dad loves him as much as do I, and that we both have strengths and weaknesses as parents. This will simply take time and careful and insightful thought to sort out.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Alba
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 09:29 AM

I wish you nothing but the best AM.
Strength, Support and Love.
Let us know how you are doing from time to time if you feel you can and my sincere warmest wishes to you ALL.
These times are hard and sad, but they will pass.
Here's to a bright Future. Sincerely.
Sending you Love and Light and holding you in my thoughts.
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 10:57 AM

You are on the right track, murky though it is. Too bad you and your partner waited for an explosion before trying to sort out your failed relationship.

Meantime, your mental health as well as your sons has to be the focus. Good luck.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 11:06 AM

The only bit of advice I feel safe offering is: be very careful about involving lawyers .... They tend to regard these situations as confrontations, whether they are or not, and sometimes end up fomenting more ill-feeling than there was to start with. You may all be much better off if you and your husband are able to come to an understanding and workable arrangements without resorting to the legal establishment. Of course, that may not be possible ... just something you may or may not want to think about ...

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 12:37 PM

AM - It sounds like you are very clear about the needs of your son. Good start and hats off to you for making the break and deciding to focus on what is best for him. Its not easy.

Its best if you and your ex can agree on custody arrangements but if that fails, mediation works quite well. Find a lawyer who specializes in mediated settlements (they usually have a partner who will take it to court if necessary).

I'm glad you see the need for a father/son relationship. Dad can still remain an active and involved member of parental decisions and responsibilities. Although my children lived with me while growing up, they had an on-going relationship with dad. Now that they are adults, they are glad that we functioned as judicial parents regardless of the fact that we lived separately. Expectations are important and as long as you both give your child the same message, he will be able to adjust to the separation.

Good luck on your road to happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Jan 07 - 01:13 PM

All the best to you all. You know that we are here if you need to let off steam or just to get some encouragement on dark days.

Subject: RE: BS: my Spouse has left with our son!
From: Hawker
Date: 22 Jan 07 - 07:40 AM

AM,
I am glad to hear that you are taking steps in your life to find a new and peaceful route to tread, I wish you strong shoes to walk in and a hand to hold.
Much love and kindest thoughts, Lucy