BS: Where does the child support go?

Subject: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:07 PM

After fourteen years, my oldest daughter and her husband are divorced, living in the same town. She has custody of their twin nine-year old boys, though they spend one night a week with him, Saturdays and some days after school when she is working. He has been paying her a small amount every week for chid support. Since they have been to court (well, she was, he didn't show up), the court doubled the amount he is to pay, but said they would not force the issue unless she chose to contact social services to do so. She has been understanding of his financial difficulties, even though he is working full-time and she is only part-time at the moment.

I thought folks might've changed since I went through a divorce with child support issues. It's depressing to think they are still the same. He promised to give her more money this week, as he had nothing for her last week. When she asked him about it, he became angry, told her no, he didn't have any extra and if she pressed it, through the court, he would leave the country for good (go home to the West Indies) that he wasn't going to "go to the poorhouse for anyone. (When they first separated I bought them several books on how to present it to the kids and how NOT to put the kids in the middle and how to deal with these issues. She read them, he scanned them, now they can't find them.)

Then he started in on the familiar refrain between opposing parents, of she spends all of the $80/week he's been giving her, on herself and her boyfriend, not on the kids. He doesn't call his boys, he won't come pick them up for visits, she has to drive them over, and she has to take food along for them when they go to his house as he doesn't have much to eat. This is a man who was SO helpful when she was bedridden for nineteen weeks whilst carrying the boys. I know he has been depressed for several years, but has always refused seeking help.

She called me for advice because he really scared her with his threats to leave, though he would not take the boys with him. My first reaction was to call his bluff...go ahead through the court and watch him leave. Then I advised her to keep a record of EVERYTHING she spends on the boys. I wonder if he has completely forgotten how much food costs and how much TWO nine year old, active boys eat these days!

Anyway, I looked all over on google for something about dads accusing moms of spending child support on themselves and didn't find much except a few blog entries. I KNOW not all dads do this and I KNOW some moms are deadbeats, too, so please don't go off on that.

What I'd like is some advice on how to deal with this kind of BS without getting too antagonistic. Or, maybe I just need to vent a bit. I love the guy, but this is ridiculous and a complete change for him. He did not have his father around until he was in his teens, so maybe he is doing the only thing he knows, but should that really be an excuse? My daughter is very concerned about the boys having their father in their lives and does not take his threat to leave lightly.

I think this must sound a bit muddled. I find it depressing that this kind of BS still goes on between parents, esp. parents who have done their best together, in the past, to raise their children well. It is so close to home for me. My ex once demanded a turqouise ring I was wearing before he would give me a check for $25 past due child support. A check that bounced. That was when I decided he didn't need to have anything to do with our children, again. Took him to court and had his rights revoked, NOT something my dau. would even contemplate, much less want to do.

At least they have kept this away from the kids, but the boys are bound to pick up on the vibes and can't help but notice something is amiss. It just seems such an old, tired, angry, stupid way to be...I guess I was hoping things had improved over the years. Guess it's just human nature, huh?

Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Alice
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:19 PM

Tough situation, kat.
I raised my son without a dime of support from the dad. I didn't even
pursue it. We were never married and he never wanted to see Ryan,
not even a photo. I found it easier to just live as
economically as possible, raise Ryan alone, used credit cards and
home equity when I had to, and now at 55 I'm working to pay off
the expenses of those child raising years. Ryan had a stable, loving
childhood and tells me he would not have wanted it any other way.
He has turned out to be a great young man.
Life's not fair. I just accepted that and moved ahead as positively as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: artbrooks
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:30 PM

Kat, I'm afraid that my trying to give advise in this situation is rather like the priest doing sex therapy, and I'm sure that better informed people will be here soon, but a couple of things come to mind. He has visitation rights, but she is dropping the kids off (and, presumably, picking them up again)? Seems to me that he should be responsible for the transportation, at least one way. If that might trigger his departure, she should at least include these transportation expenses in her child-care expense log. IRS rates (I just checked) are 48.5¢ per mile.

Why does she want him around? If she isn't getting the support money, and she has to tippy-toe around so the kids don't realize what a jerk he is being, perhaps it would be better if he went away.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Victor in Mapperton
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:44 PM

Kat, Your explanation of the situation was very moving. It's funny how adults start to act like children when relationships break down.

There seems to be a set trend over here, get out, get a solicitor, get all you can and get even.

Kids are a lot more observant than most parents give them credit for. It is important to protect them from the poison these situations create.

Sadly a lot of fathers I know seem to think when they leave the marraiage the children become the property of the mother and it's up to the state to raise them. Another thing is the attempt to recapture their youth, new girlfriend taken n holiday, spending like hell to impress her and the responsibilities of fatherhood never gets a second thought.

Well in later years when he is sitting in a one room apartment and the kids don't want to know him will be his time for reflection.

Thoughts are with you all at this time.

Be strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:56 PM

$80 a week for two nine-year old boys? THat's 320 each. If she has any change over from that to spend on herself your daughter must be remarkably good at budgetting.

Well, maybe Wyoming is an awful lot cheaper than England, though I rather doubt it can be that much cheaper. Seriously it sounds to me as if he's got no idea of how much kids cost.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:57 PM

Contacting social services to get child support has its advantages because if you do this through the state, although it takes time, they can arrange to garnish his wages and your daughter will get her child support through the state whenever he gets a paycheck. The disadvantage is the amount of time it takes to make this happen. Of ouf course, this works best when the father has one steady job and not lots of different ones or he changes jobs frequently.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Janie
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:02 PM

It is probably most effective to leave the 'shoulds' out of it, which is what Alice did.

From what you write, it sounds like the kids and their dad definitely have a bond and a meaningful relationship. IMHO, consideration of that has to take priority over any issues related to fairness and equity between the parents and their mutual responsibilities toward their children. I do not think it is appropriate when a custodial parent attempts to prevent the other parent from having visitation with the kids solely because the other parent is not meeting their financial obligations to provide for the children. (And Kat, I think I can safely guess your own decision to finally terminate parental rights was not about money.)

From what you write about your daughter and son-in-law, however, it seems your daughter is mistakenly thinking she can be responsible for the choices her ex may make. If he leaves the country, HE is choosing to remove himself from the children. SHE is not forcing him to go, nor is she withholding the children from him.

Any of us who are parents know how difficult it can be to sort out in our minds what is in the best interests of our children, and how easy it is to get confused between our own needs and wants and those of our children.

Alice's situation with her own son and his father was very different from that of your daughter's, as her children do have a well established relationship with Dad.   But the way she dealt with it, setting aside the shoulds, accepting the realities and her lack of control over the choices of her son's father, and doing her best to stay firmly focused on what was within her power to do in the best of interests of her child guided her thinking and helped her when it came time to make choices. Keeping those same principles in mind might help your daughter as she struggles to make her own choices.

What a tough situation for everyone concerned.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:03 PM

Well, it's a delicate and pressing and hot-button situation, so be careful what advice you follow because sometimes there's what's right and sometimes there's what's possible.

The best advice I can offer is to just listen to her and let her think her own way through this-- also probably the hardest advice-- as I am sure you know. What I really mean, is-- I feel for ya, and for her, and for the kids, because no matter how you cut it, it SUCKS.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Janie
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:06 PM

Didn't make clear who all the shes and hers refer to above. First sentence, 'as her children' her=your daughter, not Alice. Second sentence 'way she dealt' she=Alice.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:11 PM

That's 320 each. That should have read "That's £20 each."

Less than three pounds a day!

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: mg
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:44 PM

Absolutely go to social services and have him deal with them financially. Do not in any way keep him away from the boys, who will soon enough figure him out, because (a) they need a father unless he is abusive, even a so so father, some kids can extract something good out of . if he has anger issues or physically hurts them (hitting, not something like burning etc. which would mean no contact ever) arrange for supervised visits. If he leaves, and the mother and family have taken the high road, it is sad, but perhaps something can be salvaged in later years. Both parents should have to deal with the law more than with each other in these situations and generally more support will be obtained, and more reasonable visitations. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:00 PM

Thanks, so much, my friends. Just your thoughts and experiences are helpful to read, as I know I am so close to the situation AND have my own experiences clouding the issue, somewhat.

It seems your daughter is mistakenly thinking she can be responsible for the choices her ex may make. If he leaves the country, HE is choosing to remove himself from the children. SHE is not forcing him to go, nor is she withholding the children from him.

Yes, Janie, Thanks. That is what HE would like her to believe. That's why my initial reaction was "fine, let him go!"

I think she feels strongly about the boys having him in their lives because he has been in their lives so much over their nine years and been a good dad, plus they love him, as he loves them and even her, still. The way he is acting now is not the man I knew a couple or so years ago. He is very angry at her and striking out when he just can't stand it any longer. I am NOT excusing him in anyway.

He also found out he is diabetic about 3-4 years ago about a year after their "troubles" started and I think that has added to his depression. Their troubles started when he went to work one day and his company closed their doors, a victim of the software crash or whatever they called it when so many of them went out of business. It took him over a year to find a decent job. This was a man who has always been steadily employed, often at 2-3 jobs at a time, AND stayed with each company for years and years. He sticks to whatever he takes on. He has been in his current job for several years, now.

My daughter did things she regrets, now, but there is no going back and it did not involve the children, nor drugs, drinking, or anything else illegal. She moved out a year ago, with the kids, and finally filed for divorce when it became obvious there was no way he would ever let go of the anger and forgive her for anything, real or perceived.

Ah, well, he'd hate it if he knew I was talking about his private affairs. He is such a private person. I was the only one he would talk to about deep down things and he stopped doing that quite awhile ago. I have reached out several times only to hear nothing back. I guess all I can do is bless and release him to his Highest Good and know that what comes will be for the highest good of all concerned.

I raised my first two kids without support from their dad and my third one once her dad left when she was a year old. I met my Rog and he adopted all three of them shortly after, but I continued to work full-time and kept our kids in shoes, etc. throughout their growing up years, with Rog's help. And, yes, Janie, revoking my first husband's rights was not something I took lightly. There's lot more to that story, but it is ancient history so I'll let it go.:-) Suffice it to say, I was surprised and relieved when he and I spoke for the first time since 1977, when he called me last year, after I saw his mom in the grocery store and I gave her my number. It was a huge relief as I'd always been a bit afraid knowing I was on his family's imaginary "hit list" for taking his kids away. Apparently they got over it. My son has visited with him and his family several times over the past year and enjoyed himself, which is fine with me.

McGrath, it is a pittance over here, that $40 per child, per week. The man used to be so good with finances. I think he hasn't been well in a long time. My daughter is now looking for an extra job to help supplement things. (Oh, and it's Connecticut, which is is VERY expensive, esp. compared to Wyoming.:-)

Art, thanks for the info and suggestion re' mileage. I will tell her about that. He is not a jerk to the kids and I understand her wanting him to be there for them in what ways are possible, BUT I also get angry and disheartened when I hear he is acting this way.

Thanks for listening, folks. I really appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:31 PM

Sorry, mg, missed your post as I was composing mine. He is not abusive to them in any way, thank goodness. When I knew him, he was a very gentle, caring man. I always told him if I could choose a son, it would be him. He has never acted out, physically, while angry. I don't believe he ever would.

I am grateful his step-mom and dad live nearby. The boys love to visit them and stay overnight about once per month, so they at least have somegrandparents nearby AND the grandparents have, at least the step-mom, have told my dau. She is always welcome and to please not let the strife between her and the boys' dad spill over to the boys and their visits.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:58 PM

Kat, I am so very sorry to hear this. My blessings (for what that is worth!) on you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:18 PM

I detest the child support office in the county where I live because they take their sweet time about opening the envelopes, noting the payment was made, and getting it to me a few days later. I have difficulty planning to pay bills with their system, but at least I get the money. The reason Texas makes us all go through that blankety blank child support office (handled by the state in smaller, rural counties) is so they can tell who is a deadbeat. They prosecute down here. This is built into all divorces in Texas.

The child support isn't given to only buy the child's food and clothes and pay for school, etc. It is to help the mother maintain a life for the child that is somewhat like what they were accustomed to when the parents were together. It goes into utilities and cable TV and the DSL, etc. It isn't meant to be parsed out in an identifiable way and it isn't up to the father to judge or to withhold based upon how he thinks it is spent. I look at it that my ex pays a fraction of his paycheck to us every month to support his children, and all of my paycheck every month goes to support my children. I don't have any extra money to play with like their dad does.

After the divorce I tried to move out of the state, but gremlins in the works prevented it. In hindsight, as much as I'd like to live in a cooler climate, this is better for the kids, who see (one is away at college now) him almost daily. My son spends Friday and Saturday night there, returning home at dinner time on Sunday. This has been good for them. They're smart, well-adjusted, happy kids.

When we were first divorced he was angry, and was pulling lots of little unpleasant stunts, being picky about the rules, etc. Then I managed to throw all of the nonsense out. How? I got cancer. I don't recommend it as a way to bring your ex into line, but it worked in this case. Two surgeries and I was free of it, but we all got a sobering look at how things really stood and what was really important.

My thoughts are that your daughter is making it too easy on the father. He should pick up the kids and drop them off and he should feed them while he has them. He should also spend money on them while he has them. If he chooses to leave, that's not good for the kids, but if she keeps letting him blackmail her with threats, he'll keep doing it.

My two cents.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 07:06 PM

When I got divorced in California in 1993, I had to pay $888 a month in child support, plus health insurance, plus half of Catholic school tuition (my share was $5k a year). That left me with less than half of my paycheck to live on.
No wonder my ex bought an Acura.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 07:17 PM

Well, the Catholic tuition should have been an 'option' for both of you. Public school is free so that was your choice. Not that I don't sorta understand about 'private' (US meaning) schools.

And, honestly, part of it IS the wage disparity between men and women. Yes, women CAN be 'rocket scientists' but how many do YOU know? Most women are stuck in dead end, low paying jobs. Cook, waitress, Hostess, etc.....it's back to the equality thing again.

And, when a 'man' leaves his kids it somehow seems to be 'ok'. If a woman leaves HER kids to go to school, or for ANY reason whatsoever, SHE is an Unfit Mother.....Family/Social Services shoot right in there and take the kids away.

(sorry Kat...)

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 07:18 PM

No apologies needed, Sorcha. I agree with you.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Joybell
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 07:25 PM

Your emotional support in all this is the really positive bit, I reckon, Kat. You are the one constant in all their lives. Just being there to listen and understand is a valuable role. Thinking of you.
Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 07:52 PM

I sincerely hope I never have to face this mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Big Mick
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:19 PM

As I read your post, it seems that you are saying that this man is acting completely out of character, and is obviously battling depression. It seems to me that this should be reckoned with and it appears you are.

I know that when I was divorced from my older girls Mother, it was imperative to me that the kids lives not be disrupted in a financial way, as the emotional cost was going to be tough enough to deal with. I couldn't care less what their Mom did with the money as long as the kids were being taken care of, and their was as much continuity in their lives as possible. I paid half again as much in child support as the tables called for, against the wishes of my female attorney. And I never missed a payment.

It seems to me that this Dad needs some help, but you must not let that cause you to enable him to avoid his responsibilties to these precious babies. Perhaps some sort of intervention to force him into some counseling?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:14 PM

Well, when I was divorced I kept the kid. Nobody paid me any child support, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:30 PM

When I was a contractor in California, I used to hire guys, and we would be served papers, from time to time, from one district attorney or another, about one of our employees owing back child support. When this would happen, nine out of ten times all the guy could do was quit and go find another job. The demands were always in the tens-of-thousands of dollars, and there was simply no way in the world the guy could pay it.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:01 PM

Well, ringslinger, if he'd ever just actually KEPT UP it might not have been a problem. But, I do know that sometimes the courts DO set the child support much too high for anyone to keep up with.

Look, bottom line...if you are a parent, support your kids. Male, female, married, not married, just do the Deed for the KID. And KEEP UP.

If you are unemployed and just can't make the payments, see the Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:55 PM

Sorcha is right. But I think the present system of state garnished wages simply pushes many dads ( and I guess mums too) to work under the table so they cannot be tracked and their wages cannot be garnished. Project that issue forward for 45 years or so and see what a mess we will haven

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 06:49 AM

TRUBRIT - Yes, I think you're onto the main point. The way these things work, they build up and build up, until they are putting people in jail for non-support.

             It's not easy for a delinquent dad to go see the court, when he sees the court as the root cause of all of his problems in the first place.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:24 AM

"Child Support: It's Never Too Late to Start"

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:01 PM

Susan - I'm not trying to make the case that people shouldn't pay child support--and I think they have different systems in different parts of the country--but where I was, the various DA's would attach the worker's paycheck to the point there was nothing left to live on. There was virtually nothing the guy could do but to go find another job.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Janie
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:24 PM

Rininslinger is highlighting the significance of Susan's earlier statement about what's right, vs. what's possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:48 PM

Attaching the wages is exactly what the court told my daughter they would do; that is something she nor I want to see happen. I know he is really struggling to make ends meet and it would be much worse if he had to go find another job.

Mick, thank you. Intervention would be good, but I don't know of anybody who could or would do so.

I wish he understood and believed just how much we all love him. He got stuck in their troubles a few years back and has never moved forward, so he just doesn't believe that we could still love him and care about him. Maybe I'll try one more letter to him.

Thanks, folks. I really am okay about this...just needing to talk it through with my dear friends. Thanks a bunch,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:50 PM

Riginslinger is also responding as if my post was a comment upon anyone else's. It's not.


However, about attaching/garnishing-- I think part of the "take it all" theory is that what is owed is owed, because it's based on what a child needs, not on what a given parent HAS. Some of the parents I know-- custodial as well as non-costodial-- take on additional employment to meet those needs because in their view, what they need to earn is whatever it takes to raise the child. "Nothing left to lvoe one" presumes that "nothing else can be earned," and it's not that simple.

I myself made a choice not to pursue child support but to make do on what I and family could contribute. I'm not going into the details about why I did that. But another single mom I know who ALSO did not pursue it for many years discovered, later, that a suit on behalf of the CHILD can be made up to to a certain age, for prospective as well as retroactive support. This is because the right to support BELONGS, legally, to the child-- not to the custodial parent.

And that's precisely why courts, social workers, agencies, and the gummint pursue deadbeat parents-- because they are doing it on behalf of the child, not on behalf of the parent who may be caught up in any or all kinds of mess around the issue both practically and emotionally. (I say "deadbeat parents" because Hardi's single parent experience speaks loudly about deadbeat moms.)


It's relatively easy to opine about all these issues when one has not had to deal with them, but IMO when women gained the enforceable right to say NO and the enforceable right to decide what happens to our bodies, we also gained an increased responsibility to think creatively and rationally about the results. IMO there is far more community support (formal and familial) than co-parental support in far too many situations. And that sucks. But that does not limit the creativity a single parent can bring to bear on meeting the child's needs, and staying stuck in a victim mentality will limit that creativity until it gives way to a can-do mindset that leads into problem-solving.

THAT is why I think the best help most grandparents can give right off is emotional support, because it is the custodial parent's ability to think clearly and creatively that ultimately serves the child best, and that is where all the rest must start-- THINKING. From there, the custodial parent can begin to let folks know what ELSE they need (financially, informationally or legally), and go from there.


We (our societies) can legislate responsibility and hope it eventually will have mass application, but we cannot hope to legislate effectively "case by case," because every case is different and must be strategized from what the reality may be in THAT case.

~Susan
(Apolgies for present and future typos. I'm having a severe vision problem I hope will resolve with new lenses in a couple of weeks.)

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:13 PM

I am lucky enough to own (part own I guess with my husband) a big old rambly Victorian home.....right now there are three of us (husband, me and youngest - nearly 19 year old - child, a son). I may be being romantic minded and silly but part of my long term vision has always been - HOLD ONTO THIS HOUSE.......I figure if any of my three offspring are ever in the awful position of having no where to go for whatever reason (paying child support that is due and should be paid for example) I can offer the kids a home here. They are all good kids and while I would charge them rent it would be minimal compared to market rents. I totally agree that child support, if due, IS DUE!!!!!!!! But my daughter has been dating someone now for two years who either bounces from job to job or works under the table because his current (and back support, I admit) once taken from his wages simply do not leave him enough money to live -- I am just not sure that that helps in any way.....

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:19 PM

I hate to see children caught in the middle of a divorce. No matter how you reassure them, they blame themselves.
No advice, Kat but I do offer a sympathetic ear. Mostly give loving support to the twins so that they know their world is safe and someone will always love them. NEVER criticize Dad in front of them. It is not fair to expect them to choose between two parents they love.
Sorry.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:53 PM

Ah, Mary, that's all right. Thanks, darlin'. And, thanks, Susan and TRUEBRIT and the rest of you.

My daughter has been careful, in fact I think they have both been careful around the twins, to not badmouth each other. Her new beau is very respectful about them and their relationship with their dad, too.

The twins really don't know me much and don't really like talking on the phone, but they do know they are loved and they and their parents have talked about it NOT having a thing to do with them, plus I sent them some good children's books about that, last year when they moved out.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:13 AM

Kat, it sounds like you are striking a good balance on this [horrible awful unfair sucky] situation. Another thing I am sure you know (in case a day comes when it's hard to remember it) is to keep taking care of yourself, first, and to keep your attention firmly on the positive.

To that end, do you want to make a list here of the aspects of all this about which you want to be oriented thankfully?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM

Nope, thanks, though, Susan. I really am okay about this. It's not occupying a huge amount of my time or attention. (That's the beauty of sharing it, here, I can let it go and not fret.)

Besides that I start my new part-time job today and nothing is going to get in the way of that because I am excited and pleased!*smile*

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 12:05 PM

There is a sort of "hidden trap" built into the situation described that may not be apparent.

Child support payments have been set by a court, but are not being paid.

She doesn't want to press the issue of payments (at this time) "for his sake."

If she ever is forced to apply for any form of "social support benefits," such as food stamps, housing assistance, medical help, or any other "state provided benefits," the agencies involved will see the non-payment of court ordered child support as a "cause" and as a collectible debt, and generally will demand payment of any past due amounts as a reimbursement for "benefits paid by the state in lieu of the unpaid child support," and will pursue him to collect.

She will have NO CHOICE in this.

There generally is no appeal of the amounts ordered once collection efforts start, and there is no "statute of limitations¹" on unpaid child support.

The effect of this is that she may be prevented from applying for available benefits in the event of real need in a real family crisis, unless/until she gives up on the notion of "protecting" him; and he is building a "disaster" for himself by accumulating a backlog of unpaid support for which the government will demand payment if she and/or the children are ever forced to seek any government support benefits.

¹ US Federal Law does not recognize a statute of limitations for child support, and since nearly all state benefits rely on Federal funding, at least in part, the states generally are required to also ignore any "forgiveness." (Curiously, perhaps, in most states, alimony is subject to a (typically 10 year) limitation on collection of "back amounts.")

His failure to appear when the last court assignment of child support amounts was made may also already have demolished his right to "appeal" the amounts currently assigned. In many domestic relations courts, only a "judgement of the court" can be appealed, and in a "no contest" hearing, where the support amounts were set by reference to "standard tables," the court may construe that "no judgement was made" and hence nothing can be appealed.

(This issue of no standing for an appeal arises most frequently when a "consent decree" on alimony is registered with a court - there is no legal basis for a later appeal by the payor for adjustment because the court merely accepted an agreement, without making any judgement. It often results in non payment for the purpose of forcing the designated recipient to sue for collection, in the hope that the issue of "fairness" can be raised, and amounts adjusted, once the case is admitted to hearing.)

Note that IANAL. These comments are based entirely on personal experience, and personal contact with, and opinions of, a number of people who are or have been in similar circumstances.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 12:53 PM

Thanks, John. I did know that and from what she has said, I think the court spelled it out to her, too. She and he had an agreement which they presented to the court which stated he would pay the lesser amount. The court took a look at his income and said he should pay the higher amount, but they left it up to her to contact Social Services to get him to comply. As regards her not doing so "for his sake," I'd just say she is too tender-hearted and knows it, and we both see little purpose in destroying the boys' father through such.(I know it is his responsibility and it wouldn't literally destroy him,but there's been a lot of damage done, on both sides, already.)

I haven't spoken to her since Saturday. I am sure he was blowing off steam and will see reason. If not I will urge her to pursue it, regardless. And, you are right, John, it may soon be out of her hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Janie
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 12:55 PM

Excellent point, John. And one that most parents (custodial or not,) are not aware of.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM

Job? Gonna tell us more?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 02:48 PM

"This is a man who was SO helpful when she was bedridden for nineteen weeks whilst carrying the boys. I know he has been depressed for several years, but has always refused seeking help."

1. He's depressed.

2. His personality has changed markedly.

Time to figure out what's wrong with him. He may never accept help, but knowing what's wrong will help your family deal with his crazy behavior and attitudes.

Second thought - if they guy is mentally ill, are the boys safe with him?

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 05:45 PM

Part-time editor for a literary agency, vetting what comes over the transom! **bg**

leeneia, depressed, yes, I am sure of it. And, knowing that does help in a small way to understand what is going on with him. Yes, the boys are absolutely safe with him. There has never been any concern that way, no matter what his mental state. Thanks, though, for your concern.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 07:10 PM

Part-time editor for a literary agency, vetting what comes over the transom! **bg**


No! No way! Waaaaaaahhhhhhh..... [lucky you!]

Hope it's all readable and not too unintentially hilarious. We'd hate it if you were tempted to post the odd paragraph here.... that would be SO WRONG. Nonononooooo.....

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:17 PM

Just a follow-up, fwiw: my daughter received the final papers from the court the other day. They informed her that the court would be taking the child support out of her ex's pay check as of a certain date, so apparently it is out of her hands. I am glad she didn't have to make that decision. The way he has been acting, even worse and more resentful, I think it is the best way of dealing with the whole situation. I have since heard of a few things which make me feel a lot less hospitable towards him and make it obvious he IS in need of some counselling, but will continue to refuse it. In the meantime, she is doing all she can to keep the kids out of the rancorous bits and let them know they are loved and it is NOT their fault their parents are not together.

Thanks, again, for all of your comments and support,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: maeve
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:34 PM

Thanks for the update, kat. I've been wondering how it turned out.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:38 AM

I was once in a similar situation but this is what made me take action. I was in a casual conversation with two, male Doctors. They knew I was a single mom and asked about child support. When I said it was more important that my daughter have a good relationship with their dad, this is what they asked me:

Do you believe that as a parent it is your responsibility to provide the best possible life for your child? Of course I answered, yes.

Don't you think your children would have a better life if you could afford better accomodations, better food and access to higher education? Of course, I said.

Don't you think, therefore, that it is your responsibility to pursue child support through the courts?

Well, if you put it that way...

Smartest thing I ever did. The court gave me twice as much as I asked for. He didn't leave the country or avoid his responsibility. He simply paid every month. He became a responsible parent because he was forced to be accountable. Did it ruin his relationship with his children? No, it strengthened it.

Now that they are grown, they have respect for him. I doubt that would have happened if I had allowed him to be a deadbeat.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:38 AM

Thanks, maeve.

Thanks, dianavan. Good for you! I will pass that on to my daughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:50 PM

My mother sought support from my father when they divorced, I was 2. He was a junkie by then & had nothing, in later years when he recovered (for good) he attempted to try to do right by us & my mother. He never had a good paying job & never had much to show but he paid, always, what he was asked for even when he didn't have anything he somehow worked it out & came up with the money or the help. He lived a very meger life style. As I got into my teens my sister & I became very closer with him, he always offered & give us a share of the few dollars that teens always seem to need. My mother & father stayed friends & meet for dinner once & a great while to discuss money & us kids. He stayed a very important & loved part of our lives up till his death, mostly because he just wanted to do right by us. My step dad even admired him for willingness to shoulder his responsibilities even though his poor lifestyle made it very difficult. He died a very happy & content man knowing that he was much loved be his kids, my step dad did too.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:30 PM

One nice thing about Texas is that unless you are current with your child support payments you can't get a marrage license or renew your drivers license. I wonder if many other states work that way? They should if they don't.

Best of luck with the new job Kat. It sounds like a good fit for you. And the letter arrived yesterday. Thanks a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:39 PM

Good luck Kat.
As I said above, my father was a junkie, that's about as sick as it get's for him, us & my mother, but that still didn't relieve him of his responsibilities. JohnInKansas brings up an important point but it goes beyond what he points out. It permeates all of her present & future finiancial obligations & much of her future transactions, far more than just governement aid, it'll come into play when they apply for college loan applications & scholorhips, just one of many examples. She should know that she's doing & needs to continie to do what's best for the kids (the father is of no importance here, now or later) & their immediate as well as distant future too. As Susan also pointed out, it's the support for the kids' that's due them. Another part of reality is that if some one wants to do to what's best when it comes to taking care of the kids then they need to also take care & see to the needs of the mother or who ever the care giver happens to be.
It won't matter in the end if he fly's off, the kids will get by with or without him but it'll be his loss, later if that's what he chooses & if that's how he is he's not the decent role model the kids need to have around anyway & they need to see her actions as doing what's best for them too, they will later need to know that she acted properly on their behalf, she's a role model too. Good riddens to bad rubbish, that's his call & lousy choice not her's.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 11:15 PM

Thanks, so much, Barry for sharing so much with us. That's pretty much what I've been telling her and her new beau has been very supportive, too. He bought the boys new coats the other day.

Wesley, thanks to you, too. Glad it got there okay!

katwishingmygrandsonswerecloser

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:47 PM

My best decision with my twins was to use Social Services. That way it isn't YOU bugging your X or X2B, it's The Man. Much harder to argue with. Good luck!

Subject: RE: BS: Where does the child support go?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 02:43 PM

I like that Texas thing. A LOT.

~S~