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Lyr Add: Palestine, My Palestine

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ALTEH BUCK
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Rabbi-Sol 19 May 04 - 12:03 AM
greg stephens 19 May 04 - 04:08 AM
Wolfgang 19 May 04 - 06:10 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 May 04 - 11:18 AM
Rabbi-Sol 19 May 04 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,An English Patriot 19 May 04 - 05:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 May 04 - 05:49 PM
Rabbi-Sol 19 May 04 - 06:49 PM
beardedbruce 19 May 04 - 07:02 PM
Once Famous 19 May 04 - 09:05 PM
Amos 19 May 04 - 09:35 PM
GUEST 19 May 04 - 10:04 PM
Rabbi-Sol 19 May 04 - 11:15 PM
GUEST,An English Patriot 20 May 04 - 08:23 AM
beardedbruce 20 May 04 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,An English Patriot 20 May 04 - 12:37 PM
beardedbruce 20 May 04 - 12:43 PM
Once Famous 20 May 04 - 04:51 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 20 May 04 - 05:37 PM
CarolC 20 May 04 - 05:51 PM
Once Famous 20 May 04 - 05:55 PM
mg 20 May 04 - 06:17 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 20 May 04 - 07:37 PM
Rabbi-Sol 20 May 04 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,An English Patriot 21 May 04 - 05:58 AM
Rabbi-Sol 21 May 04 - 03:23 PM
Once Famous 21 May 04 - 04:05 PM
CarolC 21 May 04 - 04:17 PM
CarolC 21 May 04 - 04:18 PM
Once Famous 21 May 04 - 04:59 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 21 May 04 - 05:12 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 21 May 04 - 05:14 PM
Once Famous 21 May 04 - 05:24 PM
mg 21 May 04 - 06:15 PM
CarolC 21 May 04 - 06:32 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 21 May 04 - 06:34 PM
CarolC 21 May 04 - 06:37 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 21 May 04 - 06:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 May 04 - 07:25 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 21 May 04 - 07:39 PM
CarolC 21 May 04 - 09:28 PM
GUEST,An English Patriot 22 May 04 - 04:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 04 - 06:44 PM
Once Famous 22 May 04 - 09:31 PM
Rabbi-Sol 23 May 04 - 12:57 AM
CarolC 23 May 04 - 03:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 May 04 - 06:37 AM
GUEST,Karnac the Magnificent 23 May 04 - 10:53 AM
Once Famous 23 May 04 - 12:39 PM
GUEST,MAG at lab 23 May 04 - 04:27 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 23 May 04 - 07:43 PM
Rabbi-Sol 23 May 04 - 08:19 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 23 May 04 - 08:27 PM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 12:59 AM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 01:13 AM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 10:09 AM
GUEST,C-Watch 24 May 04 - 10:50 AM
GUEST,C-Watch 24 May 04 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,C-Watch 24 May 04 - 11:09 AM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 12:16 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 24 May 04 - 04:56 PM
Rabbi-Sol 24 May 04 - 04:58 PM
Once Famous 24 May 04 - 05:25 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 06:04 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 24 May 04 - 06:17 PM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 06:31 PM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 06:36 PM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 06:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 May 04 - 06:57 PM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 07:26 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 24 May 04 - 07:43 PM
Once Famous 24 May 04 - 07:49 PM
Rabbi-Sol 24 May 04 - 08:08 PM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 09:05 PM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 09:14 PM
CarolC 24 May 04 - 09:19 PM
beardedbruce 25 May 04 - 08:00 AM
CarolC 25 May 04 - 10:55 AM
beardedbruce 25 May 04 - 11:02 AM
CarolC 25 May 04 - 11:19 AM
beardedbruce 25 May 04 - 11:23 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 11:27 AM
beardedbruce 25 May 04 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,C-Watch 25 May 04 - 12:03 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 12:17 PM
beardedbruce 25 May 04 - 12:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 May 04 - 12:58 PM
Rabbi-Sol 25 May 04 - 01:32 PM
GUEST 25 May 04 - 01:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 May 04 - 12:59 PM
Once Famous 26 May 04 - 04:06 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 26 May 04 - 04:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 27 May 04 - 06:24 AM
Rabbi-Sol 28 May 04 - 01:00 AM
McGrath of Harlow 28 May 04 - 06:20 AM
GUEST,witzall 18 Sep 11 - 08:34 AM
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Subject: Lyr Add: PALESTINE, MY PALESTINE
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:03 AM

I got this song from the Kramer Family Songbook, published March 8, 1936. The tune is the same as "Maryland My Maryland". The author of these lyrics is unknown. Somehow, I cannot imagine Chairman Arafat or his hand picked prime minister singing these words.

O, hallowed land of mighty deed,
    Palestine, my Palestine;
That heroes oft from tyrants freed,
    Palestine, my Palestine;
Where fought the Maccabean breed,
Where great Bar Kochba's heart did bleed,
Prepare to greet thy Chosen Seed,
    Palestine, my Palestine!

Your skies gaze down in purest blue,
    Palestine, my Palestine;
And bathe your peaks in brilliant hue,
    Palestine, my Palestine;
Your dancing waves bring tidings true,
Your cedars tall the tale renew;
Your children come again to you,
    Palestine, my Palestine!

O land where David reared his throne,
    Palestine, my Palestine;
Where first the seed of truth was sown;
    Palestine, my Palestine!
O land where the Glory of God has shone.
Resume the role you once have known!
Prepare to welcome back your own!
    Palestine, my Palestine;

If anybody else ever heard of this song, please tell me when and where. I have had the book in which it appears in my possession since 1954. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:08 AM

I'm sure CarolC sings this regularly at sessions.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:10 AM

Thanks for the posting of this song. It is an interesting glimpse back at a time in history when the word 'Palestine (Palestinians)' had not yet the meaning it has now.

I cannot help with your question, but I can offer a link to another song with the one line 'Palestine, my Palestine' identical. It is a much more recent song and (therefore) comes from a completely different perspective. In virtual reality, two very different songs sharing one line and showing a similarity in love for Palestine, can peacefully (I hope) share one thread.

Palestine I grieve for you

I hope you'll get a response.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:18 AM

Thanks for the website, Wolfgang. The Americans also made mistakes in the Philippines, fighting the Moros, now almost a century ago.

Listen to "Palestine, My Palestine," sung by Jim Page: Palestine


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 19 May 04 - 04:44 PM

Does'nt anybody remember the good old days of The Weavers when Pete Seeger was singing Zionist songs such as Artza Alinu, Sholom Chaverim,
Tzena Tzena, Kum Bachur, etc. What in your opinion has transpired within the folk song movement to shift opinion within this community to sympathize with Arafat ? I should think that we are intelligent enough to see through all the propaganda that we are being fed in the press ? SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:16 PM

It would be nice to see through the propaganda that we are being fed by both sides: Palestinian and Jewish, and see them both as human beings wanting to live on the same land. Not being either Jewish or Palestinian, I can see both sides with equal clarity.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:49 PM

Zionist songs now leave a bad taste in my mouth. We didn't envision that the Zionists would destroy a people and confine them to refugee ghettos.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:49 PM

Apparently, our friend Q can not see through the propaganda and sees only one side of the picture. The important thing is that the killing must stop. That is something I think we can all agree with. Just because I happen to be Jewish does not mean that I agree with everything Israel does. However, flying air planes into buildings, or setting off bombs in residential areas, whether it is in the USA, Spain, Israel, or any Arab country is just plain wrong. Whether you believe in the Torah, the Koran, the Gospel, or no religion at all, murder of innocent civilians can not be condoned. Perhaps if each side learned to sing the folk songs of the other, some semblance of common understanding can be achieved. When the USA & Russia started to become partners in the space program, the Russian cosmonauts spoke English and the American astronauts spoke Russian. When they were put together in a space station for long periods of time, where each had to depend on the other for basic survival, it was no longer us and them. It was we.   SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 04 - 07:02 PM

Thank you, Sol.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:05 PM

Rabbi Sol

As a fellow Jew I emphathise with your post and have been amazed by the shift in the so-called liberal movement. Many here hate the current American administration so much and the support that they give to Israel that the enemies of Israel are actually perceived as victims. The reality of it here is that there is an undertone of anti-semitism amongst some posters here (more so from the European side, but not exclusively) and that is a sorrowful fact.

It is hard to be an openly Jewish poster here at times. However, some discussions I have truly enjoyed, while others really have to make you wonder where some posters got their common sense from.

I also remember the songs of the Weavers and what they did to expose the joyous sound of the songs you mentioned.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:35 PM

Q:

Thanks for the link to Jim Page's stuff. A gem of a singer and songwriter.

A


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:04 PM

If Israel can use missiles from aircraft to attempt to kill someone in a pickup truck and at same time kill a few innocent civilians.
whats your point.-And this has happened many times.

reppas


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:15 PM

Missles delivered with pinpoint accuracy against known Hamas terrorists cause a lot less collateral casualties than suicide bombs loaded with nails & shrapnel detonated in crowded commuter buses or in restaurants. The object is to kill as many civillians as possible.
Bleeding hearts that mourn the assasination of the wheel chair bound Sheikh Ahmed Yassin forget that once upon a time there was a man by the name of Leon Klinghoffer. It is extremely difficult to negotiate with somone who has a loaded gun pointed at you and says "You have no right to exist". First you have to take the gun out of his hand and then you can negotiate how to divide up the territory and live in harmony. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:23 AM

I think the left takes the side of the Palestinians because they are so obviously the losing side here; but I do agree that the left do not try and see it from the Jewish point of view. The lop-sided view of the Israel-Palestine issue does come dangerously close to anit-semitism.

However, just one point Rabbi-Sol. If you kick people off their land so that Jews can settle there, it is not too surprising if the left rushes to the defense of the Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:29 AM

"In March 1951 the Iraqi parliament decided to expropriate the property of the Iraqi Jews. Shortly thereafter, most of those Jews who had still remained in Iraq left the country in an organized operation and were brought to Tel-Aviv"

so, where is the Left's demand for the land and property of those Jews to be returned to them, as they want the supposed land and property of the Palestinians returned? Or aren't Jews entitled to the same considerations????


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:37 PM

I didn't know about this incident; but yes, Beardedbruce, you have a good point. The Jews are entitled to the same consideration. However, as my mum use to say, two wrongs do not make a right.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:43 PM

I agree, BUT...


After so many years of NEVER having that consideration, some of us have gotten a little weary of being castigated for things that the other side is not even criticized for.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 May 04 - 04:51 PM

Rabbi Sol

See what I mean? The left isn't what it used to be, especially amongst the so called ethnic folk music crowd.

I appreciated your Leon Klinghoffer comparison.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:37 PM

Perhaps the thread has moved a bit off the original thought. As to the music and the thought that "folk" music does no longer focus on the Israeli/Zionist part of the equation.   I, respectfully, disagree.

I believe that you will find many sensitive songs by caring and talented writers out there that try to speak to the anguish on both sides.   It may be that artists today are more representative of an entire humanity rather than focusing on one side. I could name quite a few, but would rather not at this point for fear of leaving out many.

I know that I have played many such pieces on my radio program.

In the early years of Israel's existence it is true that the music leaned more to a Pro-Israel view. The years go by, the world changes, and, as I said above, it may well be that there is now a more humanistic view in the general musical area. Of course there are some who will compose and perform radical songs for either side---but that goes for the left and right in this country, the pro war and anti war here also.   It is, merely, human nature.

That said--in summary--I don't find any great anti-Israel bias by the folk community in general.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:51 PM

CarolC never sings.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 May 04 - 05:55 PM

I disagree, unfortunately.

I have been disappointingly overwhelmed by the anti-Israel sentiment found at Mudcat.

The anti-American sentiment is very strong here. Israel is dragged into the equation because of the current administration's support.

Poster Q above is a fine representative of this sentiment, which I as a singer of American folk songs am shamed of some of the element of folk music types on this site.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: mg
Date: 20 May 04 - 06:17 PM

Here is my Palestinian song. I think I probably posted it before but I find it interesting because she takes on an African-American style song, probably to an old tune, about the River Jordan and she really is there. Sort of full circle. I think her sons are in deep trouble and she wants to see the Queen of Jordan who is a Palestinian refugee.

I think the tune is going to see the King...or maybe close but not exact. I don't really know that song.

CHORUS
I'm going over Jordan going to see the Queen
Going over Jordan, I am going to see the Queen
She is the queen of Jordan and the queen of Nazareen
Hallelu hallelu halleluia

In the river Jordan going to wash away my sins
In the river Jordan going to wash away my sins
No one but God and Allah know the trouble I am in
Hallelu hallelu halleluia

In the river Jordan going to stand upon a rock
In the river Jordan going to stand upon a rock
Call to all my neighbors and say neighbors can we talk
Hallelu hallelu halleluia

The queen she is so beautiful the queen she is so smart
The queen she is so beautiful the queen she is so smart
She gathers all the children and takes them to her heart
Hallelu hallelu halleluia

Going over Jordan ask the queen to set me free
Going over Jordan ask the queen to set me free
I am a humble refugee but she was once like me
Hallelu hallelu halleluia

I'll take my olive branches and plant the trees of peace
I'll take my olive branches and plant the trees of peace
And pray that all my people will one day be released
Hallelu hallelu halleluia


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 May 04 - 07:37 PM

Martin Gibson:   I cannot agree or disagree vis a vis Mudcat. I was merely talking about (mostly) American folk musicians having a humanistic view.   Yes, as said, there are those that only see black/white and not gray areas. Perhaps those are some of the people you refer to on Mudcat. I don't know. Again, I am only referring to musicians that I have had the honor of hearing their music and presenting it on the air. Granted, my opinion is also subjective.


On a personal note I have to say that I interviewed a young performer who is an American ex-patriot living in Israel for some 20 or so years now. Not on my music program---rather my interview program with people of political and artistic thought.

We both agreed that in the formative years of Israel the terrorism (patriotism---it being a subjective word) of Israel in the guise of Begin (Irgun) was negated and stopped by Ben Gurion (Pres. and Hagannah). That, sadly, is not what is happening now with the Palestinians.   Suicide bombers that kill innocents intentionally are not the same as targeted assasins (with collateral damage---we all know about that from our own nation).

Well, I guess we are now really off topic and should probably move this to the other part of the page for non-musical chat.

But--in short---musically I disagree. We --"folk" --present a balanced view--or at least those of us who chose artists to listen to. Politically I have to say there are a lot of issues here that cannot be decided with a simple "good"/"bad" scenario.   Our esteemed Pres. still has not figured that out either. But---when you think you are a sheriff what else can one expect.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 20 May 04 - 08:04 PM

When I started this thread, my sole purpose was to shed light upon the folk music of a particular time in history. I wanted to share some lyrics in my posession that others may have been interested in obtaining, and hoping to receive in return lyrics from some people on this board that would enrich my repertoire of folk songs from that same era. It was not my intention to start a debate. Bill Hahn is right. Let us stick to the music and let the professional politicians solve the world's problems. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:58 AM

Point taken, bearded bruce, and I shall give you that consideration now. As I was saying earlier, we should perhaps stand back and try and see all points of view. However, so long as you have house clearances on one side and suicide bombings on the other, all that it does is to inflame the hatred of each side. To return to Rabbi-Sol's point, maybe those who are interested in the subject should try and show both sides of the story and by doing that, create understanding. Outside of folk music, I am very impressed by Daniel Barenboim (excuse the spelling if it is wrong) in his attempt to join the jews and palestinians through classical music. That's the spirit.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:23 PM

From my perspective, I can also see both sides very clearly. Although I was raised as a zionist, my wife's side is quite different. Her father is a member of the ultra-orthodox Satmar Hasidic sect that is very anti-zionist. They burn the Israeli flag in public and belive that the Jews are not allowed by religious doctrine to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah. The fact that those in charge of the Israeli govenment are secular as opposed to religious only re-enforces that view. However, the suicide bomber who is intent on killing does not ask the question "What side are you on?" before detonating his explosives. One can not equate the destruction of houses with the taking of lives. Our people would have gladly surrendered all their earthly possessions in 1941 to the Nazis, if Hitler would have only let the 6 million Jews he slaughtered escape with their lives. Human life is sacred and comes first. Property is only secondary. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:05 PM

I agree, Rabbi.

Now, in keeping with Daniel Barenboim's example, can we please invite Israelis and Palestinians to join together at the Grand Ole Opry. It's a lot more livelier than classical music! Maybe it will put a smile on everyone's face.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:17 PM

It appears that your intention is to make this a political thread after all, Rabbi Zol. That's too bad, since it's in the music section.

However, the suicide bomber who is intent on killing does not ask the question "What side are you on?" before detonating his explosives. One can not equate the destruction of houses with the taking of lives.

This is true. The killing by suicide bombers is certainly less grave than bulldozing houses. Unless, of course, those houses contain human beings in them when they get bulldozed, as happened when Ariel Sharon, now the prime minister of Israel, ordered the massacre of 70 or more people at Qibya, many of them women, children, and old men on October 14, 1953. I guess he didn't ask them which side they were on before he slaughtered them either.

Can we please move this discussion below the line, or at least remain faithful to the fact that it is in the music section of this forum?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:18 PM

Excuse me... I meant to say that the killing by suicide bombers is more grave.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:59 PM

Rabbi Sol

watch out for CarolC.

She is one of the biggest anti-Israel pro Arab knuckleheads you will find anywhere. You might as well argue with the wailing wall.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:12 PM

I cannot but try to lighten this discussion a bit with a bit of humor--some you may know the story. Martin Gibson's post re: the wall reminded me of the story of the Rabbi who, for some,40 or so years has appeared every morning at the Western Wall and prayed devoutly. A lady living nearby with a few of the Wall and him went to him one day and asked---"what are you praying for all these years--and everyday?". The Rabbi replied---"there should be peace amongst us all" "So (asks the lady)--how do you feel still nothing has happened to answer your prayers?"   The Rabbi: "Like I am talking to a F---g Wall."


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:14 PM

Darn--no spell check---it is "view" not "few"---too fast at typing will do that to you.

Also--in my earlier post===the word should be "ex-patriate" not ex-patriot" changes the whole meaning.

Bill hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:24 PM

Heard that one before Bill H.

Pretty true.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: mg
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:15 PM

I say let's put our money where our mouths are. Let's build a little playground in Palestine somewhere...kids there are always talking about how they have no playgrounds. I will put in $50. Should buy a swingset.

ANyone else?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:32 PM

My apologies to Rabbi Sol for misspelling his name.

Martin is right about me in one respct, Rabbi Sol. Arguing with me on this subject is something that you may tire of eventually if you decide that it's an activity you want to try. This is why I would rather not see a political discussion on this subject up here in the music section. I think such a discussion belongs below the line that separates music discussion from other types of discussion.

Everything else Martin says about me is wrong, however.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:34 PM

Mary Garvey----Are you speaking of the Palestine of the Intefada or the Palestine that was the land's name prior to its being named Israel?   

This really should be below the line, frankly.

But, as long as it here---how did playgrounds get into this? Perhaps we can also chip in for "shrapnelproof" vests for Israeli civilians. They have playgrounds but probably need vests for protection from the young children who's playgrounds, sadly, are instructional classes in murder.

Now---do we agree this left music a long time back and should move to below the line?

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:37 PM

Or we could give the Palestinian children in the playgrounds bullet-proof vests for when Israeli soldiers use them for target practice.

Maybe this thread should be removed altogether.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 May 04 - 06:42 PM

Carol C---Strong words that show a one sided and slanted view. All killing is deplorable and diminishes us all. Now---who wants to push who into the sea?   Who declared statehood and was attacked? Who stopped their own terrorists at that time?   I guess I don't tire as quickly as the Rabbi to whom you addressed your comments.

Ok--to your last thought about either moving or eliminating the thread---AMEN and HALLELUJAH

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:25 PM

"pinpoint accuracy"... Some pins are a lot less accureate than other pins.

But to get back to the song Rabbi-Sol gave us. It seems to envisage the return to the Holy Land by exiled Jews as being to a land shared with the people who were already there, a Palestine shared by Jewish settlers, and Muslim and Christian Arabs, and all of them living together in Palestine, and calling themselves Palestinians - Jewish Palestinians, Muslim Palestinians and Christian Palestinians.

Why it didn't happen is a story of tragedy, and the fault lies with all kinds of people from all the communities involved, and above all with the European anti-semitism that culminated in the Holocaust.

I know there have always been some people from both sides of the division who have longed for a future beyond the violence and the hate that will look like that.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:39 PM

McGrath of Harlow---Words of moderation and sanity.. Good to hear (see).   There surely is some "right" on both sides---and living together in peace would, surely, be Utopia.

Not a bad thought---change the name to Utopia and see what happens.

If you ever listen to Gilbert & Sullivan's Utopia Ltd. (their last venture) you will find that it did not work. Once they had confrontation the nation worked. Too bad.   G& S probably (well, G, anyway) knew human nature well.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 21 May 04 - 09:28 PM

Bill H, I think the one sided view was being shown in this thread long before I started actually discussing the issue on it. That's precisely why I decided to add my voice to the discussion.

The Palestinians do not want to push anybody into the sea. The Palestinians want the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem to end, and they want to be left alone to establish their country and enjoy the same freedoms that you and I enjoy.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 22 May 04 - 04:15 PM

Rabbi-Sol. Suicide bombers, of course, is a far worse crime than knocking down houses, but by knocking down someones house, you create the breeding ground for suicide bombers. Its a vicious circle and one that Ariel Sharon seems happy to perpetuate. I beleive the problem with Israel is not that it is a Jewish state but that it is a state of the Jewish people. That means that if you are not a Jew then you are not an Israeli and you do not have the same rights a Jews. It would be better for Israel to be a Jewish state but which allowed all its people, regardless of race, to be citizens of that state.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 06:44 PM

Actually Arabs resident within Israel are citizens.

However refugees from what is now Israel, and their children, have no right to return from exile. Unlike Jews.

That middle verse would be one whose sentiments all exiles, Arab or Jew, might share:

Your skies gaze down in purest blue,
               Palestine, my Palestine;
          And bathe your peaks in brilliant hue,
               Palestine, my Palestine;
          Your dancing waves bring tidings true,
          Your cedars tall the tale renew;
          Your children come again to you,
               Palestine, my Palestine!


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 May 04 - 09:31 PM

CarolC, looks like Rabbi Sol maybe took my advice and doesn't want to argue with someone so maliciously one sided as you. I commend him for that. It's getting to be quite frankly a waste of everyone's time.

Maybe he has been informed by now that you are the most obvious anti-Israel person on this board.

Why bother with you?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:57 AM

I am sorry if I have been off this forum for the past 26 hours, but by now you have probably figured out that I am Orthodox and a Sabbath observer. By religious law I am forbidden to be on the computer or operate electrical devices until 72 minutes after sundown. Now as far as the refugee issue goes: The original Palestinians were not driven out of the land by the Jewish settlers. When the UN declared partition in 1948, the armies of 7 Arab nations declared war on the fledgling Jewish state. The leaders of those nations told the Palestinians to leave temporarily and get out of harm's way while they crushed the Jews. They set up temporary refugee camps for them in Jordan & Gaza and envisioned that it would only take a short time to complete a simple military operation after which they could return.
Well, a funny thing happened on the way to the store. Against all odds, the Jews won, and these Arab countries got stuck with the refugees. It was a situation of their own making. Those Arabs that stayed in Israel became citizens and enjoy a standard of living that is higher than the average citizen in any Arab nation today. Now they want Israel to take all these people back which would put a tremendous strain on an already overburdened economy. Where is the Royal Saudi family and the oil rich rulers of the Gulf States. They could not care less about their own average citizens who live below the poverty line, let alone the Palestinians. They do not want to contribute one cent to alleviate the problem, but want to put the entire burden on Israel. Arafat himself has millions stashed away in Switzerland while his people live in squalor. I agree that Sharon is no saint. But he has been elected as the leader of his country by democratic process, just as our own President Bush was. Both can be voted out of office in the next election, should the people so desire.
I do not think the same can be said for Chairman Arafat. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 23 May 04 - 03:02 AM

Rabbi-Sol, the information that you are working with is seriously flawed. It is not in the least bit historically accurate. I can produce my documentation here in this thread if you like, but I think it would be a more constructive use of your time and mine for you to read my posting history instead.

The first thing I would point out, however, is that the Arab countries did most certainly not tell the Palestinians to leave while they crushed the Jews. What in fact happened is that the Jewish forces chased the Palestinians from their villages at gun point in some cases. In other cases, they massacred civilians in order to incite terror in the occupants of other villages so they would flee for their lives. This event is called the Nakba (catastrophe) by the Palestinians. Here is a description of one of the more notorious of these massacres:

"On April 9, 1948, the Lehi and Etzel attacked the village of Deir Yassin as part of the Nahshon Operation, killing an unknown number of residents, including women and children. Yesterday's ceremony included the reading of 93 names of victims."

Deir Yassin massacre, 55 years on (Haaretz)

Here's more:

Israelis join Palestinians for somber anniversary

"In front of the locked gates of the Kfar Saul psychiatric hospital in the sprawling suburbs of West Jerusalem, Bronstein was trying to unfurl the banner of Zochrot, a small Jewish group committed to educating Israelis about the 1948 war that founded their state (the name is Hebrew for "remember"). He was there with 100 demonstrators, drawn from what in Israel is seen as the far left, to commemorate a history most Israelis are never taught in school...

...The complex of buildings behind the hospital gates is all that remains of the village of Deir Yassin, a name that in the Palestinian collective memory still reverberates with chilling significance. Here, 55 years ago, on April 9, 1948, several weeks before the state of Israel was declared, the Irgun and Stern militias stormed the village, home to nearly 600 inhabitants. They killed nearly 100 men, women and children with guns and swords. Several captives were later paraded in Jerusalem before being killed.

The leader of the Irgun, Menachem Begin, who went on to become a prime minister of Israel, later wrote that the Palestinians, hearing of the massacre, "were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives." Deir Yassin triggered an exodus that soon emptied the new state of 80 percent of its Arab population...

...Abdul Barakat recounted the morning when the Irgun and Stern gangs arrived, waking the villagers with the sound of gunfire. "The slaughter began at 4 a.m. in the morning and lasted till 6 p.m.," he said. Those who fled ended up in the refugee camps of the West Bank and Jordan. He concluded: "One day, God willing, Jew and Arab will once again be able to breathe the air together."

After the speeches, Bronstein erected a signpost to the village. "There are more than 400 villages that were destroyed in order to create our state but as a people we refuse to recognize the fact - even to this day," he said. "There are no signposts to any of them, nothing to acknowledge that they ever existed."

Bronstein has held similar ceremonies at 10 other destroyed villages but says the signposts are always taken down by the police or local families within hours. "At the moment, the signposting is just a symbolic act - we know that no one wants to know where these places are or what happened there.""


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 May 04 - 06:37 AM

Whether the refugees left because they were deliberately driven out, or because they wanted to get out of the way of the fighting, as normally happens in time of war and upheaval, is not the determining factor.

Either way they had a right under international law to return to their homes once the fighting had stopped, just as the refugees from Kosovo had the right to return. "Ethnic cleansing" is criminal wherever it takes place, and whoever the victims may be.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,Karnac the Magnificent
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:53 AM

Since not one of CarolC's previous 8,446 posts have had an iota of influence on anyone*, I predict that her next 8,446 posts will have the same result.

*With the exception of likeminded Mudcatters like Jack the Sailor and Dianavan, of course. But certainly, not on anyone with an iota of influence in the real world.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 May 04 - 12:39 PM

Extremely well said Guest, Karnac the Magnifient.

I applaud you.

This women scans the Internet for propaganda to try to rile up hate about Israel. The other 2 you mention suck it up. Jack literally.

What miserable lives.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,MAG at lab
Date: 23 May 04 - 04:27 PM

Not to mention the bombing of the King David Hotel. not terrorist at all. oh no.

There have been enough atrocities committed on both sides.

Lots of people of both ethnicities work hard to reach out to like-minded on the other side. May they receive our blessings, and our prayers.

M.A.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 May 04 - 07:43 PM

Wow---looks like I misspoke and the good Rabbi Sol was not tired after all.   In fact he has his facts quite correct. Sorry to disappoint Carol C.
      
         I was fairly young at the time of the UN vote that allowed for the creation of the State of Israel (actually listened to the voting with my family on the radio---tubes and all---remember tubes?) What transpired after that is exactly as Rabbi Sol states.

         You, Carol, are correct about one thing. The terrorism of the Irgun. What you fail to mention, however, that unlike Arafat (and I have said this before) Ben Gurion not only stopped it but pulled in the leaders of these "gangs". In fact, Ben Gurion ordered the blowing up of the ship that was supplying the Irgun and ordered the arrest of Begin. Research the Altalana affair. Another eye opener as to who tries to stop brash acts and who does not.

       At this point I should also add that prior to the bombing of the King David Hotel---which housed the British CID (who had raided the Irgun for documents) a number of phone calls were placed to avoid civilian casualties. Apparantely they were ignored for some reason. A reason that, sometimes, seems almost like the reasons our Southerners gave years back about advice from the "colored" folks.
         
         Begin's ascendency, years later, to the position of PM has nothing to do with the aforementioned. Rather, it was a response by the voters---and I emphasize the democratic word "voters" here--to a feeling of vulnerability by the citizenry.   I would also add that the sad demise of Rabin was caused by a fanatic on the Israeli side who is just as pig-headed as the people on the Palestinian side.

          I think we all have to view this in a historical perspective--thinking of all the thousands of years that have elapsed we also have to recognize that Britain tried to ameliorate the situation in, sadly, a non productive way, the Zionists purchases --I re iterate the word "purchased" the land they now inhabit. Any other lands were because of incursions on their territory that were repulsed.

You know what--it is the old cliche---that's war. And, war is sad and I surely wish we all lived in peace.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:19 PM

Yes, Bill is telling it like it really happened. I would like to add one more thing. It is not about Zionism but about pure Jew hatred. Before there was ever a Zionist movement, a bloody massacre took place in Hebron 1n 1923. Innocent Jewish students from a yeshiva and their families (an entire Jewish community) were brutally murdered by orders of the local Grand Mufti. At that time there was never any threat of Jews stealing Arab lands. When the West Bank & Gaza Strip were controlled by Jordan & Egypt between 1948 and 1967, how come the Palestinians did not ask for their own independent state at that time ? The answer is that they wanted Tel Aviv, Haifa, and all the rest of Israel as well, and to kill all the Jews in the process. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 May 04 - 08:27 PM

Well put---Sol.   Therein is the conundrum.   Allow the Palestinans back to land that they sold and also to land that their brethren (Arabs) promised them and could not deliver.

It is unfortunate that they did not welcome their brethren. But, they have their own agendas of religion, oil, and wealth.


The old joke comes to mind about having turned right and not left and look who would have had the oil. Guess who would have loved the Israelis then?   


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:59 AM

In fact he has his facts quite correct. Sorry to disappoint Carol C.

Yes, Bill is telling it like it really happened.

Just because the two of you say so? I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

The notion that it was all about Jew hatred is one of the most absurd ideas I've ever heard. There were already Jews living in what is now Israel and the Palestinians Occupied Territories, for many centuries. Not only did the Muslims and Christians who shared that land with them not kill them all off, they lived peacefully together on that land. People didn't start hating each other there until the Europeans showed up.

Now, on the subject of the Mufti, he was released from jail and appointed to that post by the British, and against the will of the majority of Arabs in the region who thought he was a thug. The British did this as a part of their tactic of playing one side against the other. I'd say their tactic worked quite well.

I'll address the other points tomorrow.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 01:13 AM

Ok. Just one more for tonight.

When the West Bank & Gaza Strip were controlled by Jordan & Egypt between 1948 and 1967, how come the Palestinians did not ask for their own independent state at that time ?

My guess would be that it was because the Jordanians and the Egyptians treated them like human beings. And they probably felt protected from Israel by the Jordanians and the Egyptians. At least they weren't being expelled from their land by the Jordanians and the Egyptians.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:09 AM

I almost forgot. It was Britian's first Palestine High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel, who appointed Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini to the position of Mufti. Sir Herbert Samuel was Jewish.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:50 AM

When the West Bank & Gaza Strip were controlled by Jordan & Egypt between 1948 and 1967, how come the Palestinians did not ask for their own independent state at that time ?

"My guess would be that it was because the Jordanians and the Egyptians treated them like human beings. And they probably felt protected from Israel by the Jordanians and the Egyptians. At least they weren't being expelled from their land by the Jordanians and the Egyptians."

Wrong guess. It was because the Jordanians, Egyptians and other Arab countries were still promising to conquer Israel and "drive the Jews into the sea."

And the Jordanians treated the Palestinians so well that they went to war with each other not long after.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:05 AM

Now, on the subject of the Mufti, he was released from jail and appointed to that post by the British, and against the will of the majority of Arabs in the region who thought he was a thug. The British did this as a part of their tactic of playing one side against the other. I'd say their tactic worked quite well.

...

I almost forgot. It was Britian's first Palestine High Commissioner, Sir Herbert Samuel, who appointed Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini to the position of Mufti. Sir Herbert Samuel was Jewish.


SInce there was no polling or elections done among the Arabs of Palestine at the time, CarolC is no position to explain "the will of the majority of Arabs." It is not unreasonable to expect in that region, given its violent history of assassination, that he would not have survived for any length of time had he been as unpopular as CarolC decalres.

BTW, Sir Herbert Samuel may have started out with good intentions, but ultimately, he was just a token who took all of his marching orders from London. In addition to appointing the Mufti, he also helped prevent signifigant immigration of Jews to Palestine.

Quite obviously, London appointed Samuel because he was Jewish and completely under the thumb of his political masters at Downing Street.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 24 May 04 - 11:09 AM

One more point that I neglected to mention in my post of 10:50 AM.

When the Egyptians and the Jodanians each made peace settlements with Israel, they washed their hands of the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. They wanted nothing more to do with them.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:16 PM

"It is not unreasonable to expect in that region, given its violent history of assassination, that he would not have survived for any length of time had he been as unpopular..."

In contrast to the USA?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 May 04 - 04:56 PM

I don't think that Guest C was trying to make comparisons with the US. Merely stating a history of the area.   I must say, her facts re: Mufti, Jordan/Egypt, and most of the other points are quite correct.   It is, no doubt, a sad situation.

There is plenty of fault to go around---but surely no fault can be put on Israel for the occurrences after the declaration of statehood following the UN vote and also after ther 1967 war---please read Michael Oren's book. The Syrian and Egyptian double cross of each other and the lies Nasser foisted on his own people at that time.

Yes, Israel has surely made mistakes in years after that. But on a scale it would probably still not be a balance. Who was it--Gen. Sherman who said---War is Hell.   Sadly there is war all over the world and man's inhumanity to man just seems to get worse over the years---and not just in the Middle East.


Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 May 04 - 04:58 PM

Remember what happened to those who really tried to make peace. King Hussein's father (King Abdullah), and more recently Anwar Sadat. They don't seem to live very long. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 May 04 - 05:25 PM

So, Carol C. the Rabbi doesn't know what he is talking about right?

I would trust that the majority on this board would venture to say that he has much more credibility and is much closer to the truth of the situation then you are.

Your anti-Israel campaign here has just about played itself out.

"The notion that it was all about Jew hatred is one of the most absurd ideas I've ever heard"

This statement you made rates as one of the most ignorant I have ever read.

You are losing all the arguements, CarolC.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:04 PM

Remember what happened to those who really tried to make peace

You missed out Yitzhak Rabin there, Rabbi-Sol. And Count Bernardotte in 1948.

And the peace activists who have been shot by the IDF.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:17 PM

Carol C : I used the term "Israelis"---you persist in using the term "Jews". There is a difference--and there is also significant symbolism in your using that terminology.

          You have also not mentioned the rioting that left many--Jews that lived in Palestine (its name at the time--hence my use of the term at this point) dead. Many years prior to the British involvement.
   
          I won't go back to the British involvement since it has been ably covered. In fact one can see parallels to U S involvement in certain foreign governments and doing so under very cloudy pretexts. It is a stretch to make the comparison, I grant you, but that is the sad history of humankind.

Bill H


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:31 PM

Wrong guess. It was because the Jordanians, Egyptians and other Arab countries were still promising to conquer Israel and "drive the Jews into the sea."

And the Jordanians treated the Palestinians so well that they went to war with each other not long after.


In this case you are the one who is wrong. At least about the intentions of the Jordanians...

"The real question about the Jewish Agency-Hashemite agreement is not whether it existed but what happened to it in the course of the Israeli-Jordanian battles of May-July 1948. Clearly, it partially unravelled in April 1948 under the impact of the Haganah's military successes, the gradual disintegration of Palestinian society, and the Dayr Yasin massacre. 'Abdallah felt unable to stand aside or to break ranks publicly with the other Arab leaders.

But did he really renege on the agreement? ...On 10 May 1948 Ben-Gurion sent Golda Meir to meet 'Abdallah once again in a last-ditch effort to avert a Yishuv-Hashemite clash. Returning to Tel Aviv, she reported to the Mapai Central Committee: "We met [on 10 May] amicably. He is very worried and looks terrible. He did not deny that there had been talk and understanding between us about a desirable arrangement, namely that he would take the Arab part [of Palestine]. . . . "But 'Abdallah had said that he could now, on 10 May, only offer the Jews "autonomy" within an enlarged Hashemite kingdom. He added that while he was not interested in invading the areas allocated for Jewish statehood, the situation was volatile. But he voiced the hope that Jordan and the Yishuv would conclude a peace agreement once the dust had settled.(16)

On 15 May the Arab Legion, along with the other Arab armies, invaded Palestine. But far from unravelling, the agreement, at least in 'Abdallah's mind, appeared to hold fast. 'Abdallah's troops kept meticulously to the 17 November 1947 scenario: At no point in May, or thereafter, did the Arab Legion attack the Jewish state's territory. The Legion occupied the northern half of the West Bank and advanced as far westward as Latrun, Lydda, and Ramla (all UN-allocated Arab areas); and, acceding to local Arab pressures, drove into (Arab) East Jerusalem, essentially to secure the area (and its holy sites, including 'Abdallah's father's tomb on the Temple Mount) against Jewish conquest. But Jerusalem, allocated by the United Nations partition resolution neither to Jew nor to Arab, had not been covered in the Meir-'Abdallah agreement. Moreover, apart from securing the Old City (including conquering its Jewish Quarter), the Legion had refrained from attacking Jewish positions and areas (except for forays around the Mandelbaum Gate and the Notre Dame Monastery designed to safeguard the Legion's line of communication from Ramallah into the city).

No doubt, 'Abdallah was not motivated solely by his adherence to the agreement. His army was small, numbering only some 7,500-9,000 troops at the start of hostilities, and he hardly had enough soldiers to secure the West Bank, let alone attempt to conquer Jewish state territory or fight in costly street battles in West Jerusalem. Moreover, the British had warned him against attacking the Jewish state (see below), and he had promised to refrain from doing so.

Before 15 May, various Jewish officials - Yaacov Shimoni, Moshe Shertok (Sharett), etc. - feared that 'Abdallah might attack the Jewish state nonetheless ("Can any Arab be trusted?"). But in effect, when it came to brass tacks, 'Abdallah adhered strictly to the letter and spirit of the agreement. Rather, it was the Jews who broke it when the Haganah/IDF repeatedly attacked the Legion in Latrun (in late May and June), in Lydda-Ramla (in July), and near Tarqumiya (October). It was Ben-Gurion - because he sought to lift the siege of Jerusalem and expand Jewish territorial holdings beyond what the UN had earmarked - who violated it."

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/palestine/articles/Morris.htm


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:36 PM

This is the "agreement" that is referred to in the quote in my last post:

"Shlaim, in his well-argued, generally well-founded book had maintained that (a) years of Zionist-Hashemite contacts and shared political interests had resulted, in 1946-47, in the conclusion of an unwritten agreement between the leadership of the Yishuv and 'Abdallah, king of Jordan, not to fight each other but to split Palestine between them, with the Hashemites (rather than the Palestinians) receiving what is today called the West Bank, and eventually to make peace; (b) in early 1948, Britain tacitly approved the Yishuv-Hashemite agreement by supporting a Jordanian takeover of the West Bank (rather than the creation in that territory of an independent, Husayni-led Palestinian state, as the UN General Assembly had ruled), and cautioned 'Abdallah not to attack the Jewish state; (c) the Yishuv-Hashemite agreement, while somewhat shaken, in effect weathered the Jewish-Palestinian battles of November 1947-May 1948, and resulted in limited and indecisive warfare between the Israel Defence Forces and Jordan's army, the Arab Legion, in May 1948-April 1949; and (d) following the war, 'Abdallah wanted to reach peace with Israel but due to the internal weaknesses of his position and Israeli unwillingness to make concessions, no peace treaty was achieved."


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:44 PM

Carol C : I used the term "Israelis"---you persist in using the term "Jews". There is a difference--and there is also significant symbolism in your using that terminology.

Actually, I don't persist in using the term "Jews" instead of "Israelis". I almost always say "Israelis" rather than "Jews", and if you would read my posting history on this subject, you would see this for yourself. But in the case of what was going on prior to the establishment of the state of Israel, the conflict was being carried out by people who were Jewish, but not yet Israelis. I don't know of any other way to make clear which people in that conflict I am talking about (prior to Israeli statehood).


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 May 04 - 06:57 PM

There are lots of Jews who aren't Israelis, and a fair number of Israelis who aren't Jews.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:26 PM

Remember what happened to those who really tried to make peace. King Hussein's father (King Abdullah), and more recently Anwar Sadat. They don't seem to live very long.

In the case of King Abdullah, and the fact that together with Israel, he killed the Palestinians' dreams of having an independent state, I guess it doesn't surprise me that he was killed. But in consideration of his betrayal of the Palestinians (and all of the bloody consequences of that decision), I don't think I would call him a "peace maker".

They don't seem to live very long

I find myself wondering what, exactly, your point is in saying this.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:43 PM

Well, this, Carol C, is the perfect moment to bring music back into the thread. Great seque.

You ask ---what is the point in saying this--referrring to the assasinations of peacemakers.

    So--back to the music. Please try to listen to Eric Bogle's beautiful composition (of the many) The Blessing. It appears on his Small Miracles CD. You might also appreciate his "Never Again/Remember" on his I Wrote this Wee Song For Ye

    The BLessing was composed on the sad event of Rabin's death---but it could be for anyone. He also later wrote a song about his feelings about the horror of 9-11-01.   
   
    I am sure all of you know his other classics---among them The Band Played Waltzing Matilda, and so many more




Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:49 PM

Nice tap dance, CarolC.

But you need to replace that op hat and cane.

It's already very worn out.

You should be Arafat's public relations minister.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 May 04 - 08:08 PM

Carol, I think that the present day Palestinians would call them "collaborators". My point is that that hatred for Jews ( and more recently Americans and Western Europeans), is being bred into these people from the time of infancy. They are being indoctrinated and brainwashed in Midrasas (religious school) as young children that hatred, violence, and killing is not only acceptable behavior but meritorious as well. This is not only happening in Palestine but in all Arab countries. It is not the true teachings of Islam, which is a religion of "love thy neighbor" much like Judaism & Christianity. These radicals have hijacked Islam and are using it as a unifying force to further their own agenda. What is that agenda may you ask ?
It is a political goal called "Pan Arab Nationalism". This is what has given birth to Bin Laden, the Taliban, Al Queda, Hamas, Arafat and all radical terrorist entities. The truth is that the entire Arab world is being taught to hate anyone & anything that is not Islamic in nature. Unfortunately, President Bush has done much to foster this hatred by invading Iraq under false pretenses and the recent revelations about prisoner abuse has excaberated the situation even further. It is all about Arab pride & power and getting back at the west for years of imperialism. Try to compare it to the Black Power movement here in the US during the 1960s & early 70s when names like H. Rapp Brown, Angela Davis & Stokey Carmichael made the headlines. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:05 PM

SInce there was no polling or elections done among the Arabs of Palestine at the time, CarolC is no position to explain "the will of the majority of Arabs." It is not unreasonable to expect in that region, given its violent history of assassination, that he would not have survived for any length of time had he been as unpopular as CarolC decalres.

Well, here's what palestineremembered.com, an organization with a noticably pro-Palestinian bias has to say about it:

"Though we very much respected our history teacher, we used to think that (he) said all this because he was a relative of Sheikh Hossam El-Din Jar-Allah, Sheikh Amin Al-Husseini's opponent ,who had obtained more votes than Haj Amin in the elections for the post of the Grand Mufti, but was never appointed, as the British for their own political reasons chose to give the job to Haj Amin."

http://netfinity2.palestineremembered.com/Jaffa/Jaffa/Story194.html

...and this is what palestinefacts.org, an organization with a noticably pro-Zionist bias has to say about it:

"The first Palestine High Commissioner. Sir Herbert Samuel arrived in Palestine on July 1, 1920. He was a weak administrator who was too ready to compromise and appease the extremist, nationalistic Arab minority led by Haj Amin al-Husseini...

...Al-Husseini represented newly emerging proponents of militant, Palestinian Arab nationalism, a previously unknown concept. Once he was in power, he began a campaign of terror and intimidation against anyone opposed to his rule and policies. He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence. Husseini was not willing to negotiate or make any kind of compromise for the sake of peace."

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php

Now ordinarily I wouldn't look to either of these sites for documentation of anything, because of their inherant biases, but the fact that they both seem to agree on this one point, even dispite their opposing points of view, makes me think it's probably pretty trustworthy.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:14 PM

Rabbi-Sol, I don't have time to answer your 24 May 04 - 08:08 PM post with regard to the specifics of it right at the moment, but you really need to try to understand that what the majority of Palestinians, and even Palestinian terrorists, want has nothing to do with their religion, which can be either Christian or Muslim (and yes, there have been some acts of "terrorism" committed by Palestinian Christians), but is for the purpose of accomplishing one goal. That goal is to end the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, and to get some recognition for their legitimate grievances.

Now, I don't condone any kind of violence committed against civilians by anyone, Palestinian or Israeli. But if people continue to misconstrue the motives of those who do these things, the problems will never get solved.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 04 - 09:19 PM

Thank you, Bill H. That was a very nice post.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 08:00 AM

"He killed Jews at every opportunity, but also eliminated Arabs who did not support his campaign of violence."

Seems to describe the present Palestinian terrorists, as well.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:55 AM

Seems to describe the present Palestinian terrorists, as well.

And also the Israeli terrorist who killed Rabin.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:02 AM

No, he just killed one individual, for that individual's perceived actions and future actions. NOT THE SAME at all, CarolC.

The Palestinian terrorist would blow you up, given a chance, without even thinking about it, if you were were he/she decided to act.

The Israeli murderer ghad a specific victim- a target. I have never called Palestinians who attacked military posts or troops terrorists- not too bright, but not terrorists. Thaose who target random civilians are terrorists- On both sides.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: CarolC
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:19 AM

I don't know, beardedbruce. As the with the British official who appointed Amin Al-Husseini to the postition of Mufti, the repercussions of that act, of assasinating Rabin, have probably caused the deaths of thousands of people. And I feel pretty confident that Rabin's assassin knew that this would be the result of his actions.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:23 AM

A valid point- but the killing of an Israeli soldier has repercussions as well, yet you (and I) would not consider the person who killed that soldier to be a terrorist...


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:27 AM

And there have been examples of both sorts of killing on both sides - the targetted individual, and the killing of a bunch of random people on the other side.

What keeps this going is the constant sequence of reprisals designed to provoke reprisals to justify reprisals which will provoke reprisals.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:29 AM

True... and your proposal to end it?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,C-Watch
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:03 PM

And also the Israeli terrorist who killed Rabin.

Rabin's assasin was a murderer, an extremist, an enemy of peace.

However, he was not a terrorist. Terrorists strike at random targets -- school children eating pizza, old people at a Passover seder, secretaries at work on the 100th floor -- while Rabin, like Sadat, the Kennedys, Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, were very specific tragets.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:17 PM

The only way to break that cycle of violence is to refuse to go along with it, and refuse to carry out the expected reprisal, and to persist in that refusal in face of further provocations.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:22 PM

So, the Palestinians, who only want peace and leibenraum, will stop all the terrorist activity on their side?


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:58 PM

Either side could do it. But there are clearly those on both sides who would be desperate to stop it happening, because it would threaten their position, which is preserved by the continuing violence.

I didn't say I expect it to happen.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:32 PM

Starting tonight at sundown, I will be off the forum for 2 full days in observance of the Jewish holiday of Shavuos (Pentecost). I will be back on line late Thursday night, 72 minutes after sundown. In keeping this thread within the realm of music, I would like some of you to check out 2 of my other threads. As I am relatively new to this forum, I do not as yet know how to create the blue links. One thread is "Lyrics; The Little Bird" in which I have posted a song written after the Holocaust but before the establishment of the State of Israel. I would like to hear some comments from this group, both pro & con about the feelings conveyed in this song. Another thread is "Lyr. Req. There Are 2 Sides To The Jordan", a song originally written in Hebrew but translated into a singable English version. It was the original theme song of the right wing Revisionist Party. No one has come up with the English lyrics for me yet. Since many on this forum, both pro & con, have considerable knowledge of this era, perhaps someone will know them. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:48 PM

little bird

2 sides to the Jordan


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:59 PM

Welcome to Sol - and I think the way he has avoiding losing his rag in this thread is to be welcomed too. And if possible, emulated.

Just because we find ourselves in disagreement with other people, even sharp disagreement about things that matter to us, is no reason to make personal attacks on other people.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:06 PM

Well, maybe. Or maybe, it's as good a reason as any.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 May 04 - 04:53 PM

Martin, reasoning like that got us into the mess the world is currently in.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:24 AM

As good a reason as any, and that's no good reason.


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:00 AM

The wonderful thing about this forum is that we can discuss the issues as rational human beings, with mutual respect, even though many of us are on opposite sides of the issue. It is a lot better than shooting bullets and grenades at each other. Now, if we can only get the protagonists in the Middle East to do the same, we will have accomplished something. But then again, we are not directly in the line of fire and can afford to take a more laid back position. SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: Lyrics: Palestine, My Palestine
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:20 AM

...we are not directly in the line of fire and can afford to take a more laid back position"

That's true in one way - but it often happens that the people actually in the heart of a conflict can be better able to be ready to make peace than many of their supporters a long way away crying "No Surrender".   That has definitely been the case sometimes in the context of the Troubles in Ireland.

I wholly agree with Sol there, about how we should value the opportunity we have here to argue and discuss with people who see things differently, and to learn to understand why they see things differently, and what that is based on. I think the key to using that opportunity wisely is that ability to walk away and consider before coming up with a reply to something that has been said that triggers an angry or dismissive response.

(Happy Pentecost, Sol - we celebrate it on this Sunday.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Palestine, My Palestine
From: GUEST,witzall
Date: 18 Sep 11 - 08:34 AM

Very late to this thread (6 years). But I was looking for these lyrics. I could only remember the first verse, that from my childhood in Hebrew School in the early '40s. I wanted to show then to my children, aged 41 and 50, and to my grandchildren, to demonstrate how differently things were viewed then, the Jews being 'Palestinians' and all.


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