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Lyr Req: Ladino Songs

DigiTrad:
ALTEH BUCK
BORSCHT CIRCUIT WHOOPIE
DREMLEN FEYGL (Drowsing Birds)
MAYN RUE PLATS
MAYN RU'E PLATZ
UNTER DAYN VAYSE SHTER'N


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GUEST,Annraoi 01 Sep 00 - 11:28 AM
rabbitrunning 01 Sep 00 - 11:48 AM
Wolfgang 01 Sep 00 - 12:17 PM
Alice 01 Sep 00 - 12:27 PM
Wolfgang 01 Sep 00 - 12:38 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 01 Sep 00 - 02:36 PM
Jim Dixon 01 Sep 00 - 02:41 PM
Turtle 01 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM
Turtle 01 Sep 00 - 03:09 PM
Alice 01 Sep 00 - 03:19 PM
Alice 01 Sep 00 - 04:35 PM
Alice 01 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 01 Sep 00 - 08:00 PM
GUEST,Sue Harris 02 Sep 00 - 12:09 AM
Alice 02 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM
Joe Offer 02 Sep 00 - 03:58 AM
Susan of DT 02 Sep 00 - 09:29 AM
GUEST,Annraoi 02 Sep 00 - 06:48 PM
Alice 02 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 03 Sep 00 - 02:37 PM
Alice 03 Sep 00 - 03:05 PM
GUEST,Simon 05 Sep 00 - 02:11 PM
Susan of DT 05 Sep 00 - 06:48 PM
GUEST,Annraoi 05 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM
Chanteyranger 06 Sep 00 - 02:19 AM
Bob Bolton 28 Apr 02 - 11:47 PM
Wilfried Schaum 29 Apr 02 - 08:23 AM
GUEST,Annraoi 29 Apr 02 - 10:16 PM
GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 30 Apr 02 - 05:01 AM
Wilfried Schaum 30 Apr 02 - 05:51 AM
GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 30 Apr 02 - 07:08 AM
Wilfried Schaum 04 May 02 - 07:04 AM
Genie 17 Feb 12 - 12:03 AM
GUEST,Gerry 17 Feb 12 - 06:06 AM
Jack Campin 17 Feb 12 - 07:52 AM
Jack Campin 17 Feb 12 - 09:13 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 17 Feb 12 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,Gerry 17 Feb 12 - 05:13 PM
Genie 18 Feb 12 - 01:40 AM
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Subject: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 11:28 AM

Does anyone have references to CDs, Tapes Sites featuring songs in this language ?
Annraoi

Click for Ladino Hanukkah Songs


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: rabbitrunning
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 11:48 AM

I dogpile searched it with "ladino songs" and goto.com came back with several.

This looked like the best one, at a casual glance.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 12:17 PM

I'm curious. Following rabbitrunning's link one finds that Ladino is a language of the jews of Spain. I knew Ladino as a Northern Italy language of the Rumantsch language family. Are these two different languages having the same name, are they related or even identical?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 12:27 PM

Annraoi, the Zemerl site that rabitrunning linked to should give you the best resource on the internet for Ladino.

Wolfgang, I learned that Ladino was the language that came from a mixture of Spanish and Hebrew. I didn't know there was a Ladino of Italy. Tell us more.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 12:38 PM

Rumantsch (Rhaethian, Retorumantsch, Rhaeto-Romance) is a Latin based language (actually seven slightly different) spoken in a few very remote valleys of Switserland (five languages) and also in very few alpine valleys of Italy, where it is called Ladin(o) or Friulian.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:36 PM

Thanks for your help. Will investigate the "Zemerl" site. But if anyone has personal experience of this tradition, I would be glad to hear from them.
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 02:41 PM

I'm glad we have such knowledgeable people at Mudcat. I would have thought "Ladino" was a misspelling of "Latino"!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Turtle
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM

A New-York-based a cappella ensemble, the Western Wind, put out a CD of Sephardic songs called Mazal Bueno, I think in the early 90s. Some of those songs are in Ladino. I think there may be some songs in Ladino on some of their other recordings as well.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Turtle
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 03:09 PM

Western Wind's website is www.westernwind.org. (Not up to speed on clickies, yet, sorry!) They have a Judaica series of 6 recordings, of which Mazal Bueno is one. I'd be surprised if the other 5 didn't also include some Sephardic songs, and maybe some in Ladino. You could also contact them for more information--I did an ensemble singing workshop with them once, and they are very friendly & down-to-earth folks. It seems to me that one or more of them may specialize in Jewish or even in Sephardic music, but I don't remember who.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 03:19 PM

Annraoi, there was a documentary film on Ladino that I saw last year on PBS. It was made by a young man whose family had been part of the Jewish community that had left Spain for the Isle of Rhodes and then moved during world war II to the Los Angeles area. I'll see if I can track it down. You may be able to get it on video.

I know one verse of a Ladino song I learned from sheet music my friend Suzanne. But, like she says, it is hard to learn from written music, because like Arabic and Flamenco and many other types of folk music, you have to hear the rhythm and the way the sounds are made that are part of the music. She is Jewish, a cantor, but not Ladino. As she says, notes alone don't make it. It's part language, part music, part culture, really hard to re-create Ladino if you aren't part of the culture. That said, I can sing it and make a sound file if you can hear MP3 or MP2.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 04:35 PM

Here is the film: ISLAND OF ROSES: THE JEWS OF RHODES IN LOS ANGELES USA, 1995, video, 55 min., color, English, Italian, French & Ladino w/Eng. subtitles. Director: Gregori Viens.

You can find that film and more films at this site:Jewishfilm.com -- The Jewish Film Archive online

Alice


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM

here is a source for the video:

Island of Roses: The Jews of Rhodes in Los Angeles
LANGUAGE: English, Italian, French and Ladino w/ English subtitles

SOURCE: Gregori Viens, 333 South Bedford Drive, Beverly Hills, CA 90212 Tel; 310/552-7902. OR $40 from Sephardic Society in New York City, Ph. 212.496.2173
Sephardic@Juno.com

TEXT: Interviews with the last surviving Rhodeslis who live in Los Angeles and a look at their Sephardic traditions, Ladino dialect, and the traditions they have passed on to their children and grandchildren.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 01 Sep 00 - 08:00 PM

Check out the web site of Robin Greenstein. She does, among other things, Ladino music--music of the Sephardim. I had the pleasure of interviewing her a while back for our radio program (Traditions) on WFDU (www.wfdu.fm).

Iam not sure how to give you the website address. Perhaps use a search engine with her name. Another good source is Joe Elias 79 Harwood Rd. Jamesburg NJ 08831. No e mail address available. He has a CD out with his ensemble calledf LADINO LIVES. A teacher of this music and, I surmise, part of a diminishing breed.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Sue Harris
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 12:09 AM

If you go to jewishmusic.com, and do a search for "ladino" in both "CD's and cassettes" and "music books", you will find LOTS of Ladino offerings! Many of the cassette and CD listings offer sound clips, so you can check it out first.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM

Hey, Sue Harris, thanks for that link, it's a gold mine. That six CD set of ladino masterpieces looks especially great.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 03:58 AM

Aw, I was just going to link to www.jewishmusic.com. They've got a great selection of recordings AND songbooks. Click here to get to their Sephardic recordings. I sepecially like the recordings of Judy Frankel. The site also is very generous about providing sound clips of the music they have for sale.
We've had some discusions of Ladino songs here. Click on Swallow Song or Tres Hermanikas, for example. If you put Ladino or Sephardic in the SuperSearch box, you'll probably find more.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Susan of DT
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 09:29 AM

I'll probably see someone who sings in Ladino (Adaya Henis) next weekend and will ask her for recommendations for you.

There have been two major subgroups of Jews for the last few hundred years - the Ashkenazi in eastern Europe and the Sephardic Jews in southern Europe/Mediteranean area. The Ashkenazi mostly spoke Yiddish (a German-related dialect with bits of lots of other eastern European languages) written in Hebrew characters. The Sephardim mostly spoke Ladino (a Spanish-related dialect with bits of other southern European languages and perhaps some Arabic thrown in) written in Hebrew characters. I would not be surprised to find Ladino in Italy


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 06:48 PM

Susan (of DT) sunce you have a captive practitioner of Sephardic music, could you please ask her if she has any examples of language mixing in the lyrics.
Thanks all of you for your support. Some of the recommended sites are really terrific.
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Alice
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 09:43 PM

Annraoi, do you have this website? THE LADINO LANGUAGE

I was taught that Ladino is now considered a language of its own, not just a mixture of languages. So, Ladino songs are not really macaronic the way a part Gaelic part English song would be. The lyrics would be all in one language, Ladino.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 02:37 PM

Alice, thanks for the additional reference. The Macaronics comes in where the Ladino lyrics are mixed with lyrics n Hebrew, Turkish, Greek or any other language met with in the Sephardic Mediterranean diaspora. The use of loanwords in Ladino itself does not of itself constitute code switching / macaronics. Every language borrows - sometimes quite extensively - from other languages.
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Alice
Date: 03 Sep 00 - 03:05 PM

Yes, I understand that. It was interesting to see the Ladino Language site I previously linked to also links to a dictionary. It will be interesting to see what phrases may be included in Ladino songs that are not already part of the Ladino mix. It was interesting to see the examples of very old Spanish words that are preserved in the Ladino language, and also the pronunciations that have common connections in places in New Mexico, where early Spanish settlers brought the language of old Spain.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Simon
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 02:11 PM

For the largest selction of "Ladino" music on Cd, cassette, and video check out "HATIKVAH MUSIC" at:

http://www.hatikvahmusic.com/ladino1.html

Also carries the largest selction of Yiddish, Klezmer, Cantorial, Yemenite music available.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Susan of DT
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:48 PM

I think Adaya has some macaronic songs with Hebrew or Aramaic thrown in. She has e-mail, I'll see if I can get her to look at mudcat and this thread.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM

Susan,
I would appreciate that very much.
Simon,
Thanks for your reference. Very helpful indeed.
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Chanteyranger
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 02:19 AM

There is a very good medieval music group called Ensemble Alcatraz, with a singer named Susan Rode Morris, who have recorded some very old Sephardic songs in Ladino. You might want to look for them in classical music stores.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 28 Apr 02 - 11:47 PM

G'day,

A local (east coast of Australia) singer, Helen Rivero, specialises in Sephardic songs ... many of them in Ladino. I love her renditions and her sense of the theatre of language.

Reading some of the lyrics (written in Roman characters) the language seems to be strongly reminiscent of Provençal ... or a generalised Mediterranean 'Romance' language. I suspect that, before modern boundaties became poltically defined, there would have been gradations of common language right along the northern coast of the Mediterranean.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 08:23 AM

In discussing the structures of both Jewish language families the term "macaronic" should be avoided.
We have the Eastern Jewish language, Ashkenazi (= Yidddish), and Western Jewish, Sephardi (= Ladino).
The basic grammatical structures of both languages are Spanish and German; instead of a part of the nouns and verbs Hebrew expressions are used, but transformed in their pronounciation to the average Spanish or German usage. This may sound funny to stranger's ears, but nevertheless it is the way of the recipient language.
Note that the invariables of the respective languages, i. e. prepositions, adverbs and paricles remain Spanish or German and are not substituted by their Hebrew correspondents.
Both languages preserve the state of late medieval Spanish and Middle High German.
In Germany the term "macaronic" is used for a certain kind of academic funny poetry only, where nouns of a foreign language are imported and transformed to the needs of the receiving language.
Fine German example: Nachtwaechteri veniunt cum spiessibus atque laternis, which could sound in English: Nightwatcheri veniunt cum spearibus atque lanternis (Night watchers are coming with spears and lanterns)
In both European Jewish languages a macaronic effect is not intended, but it is the way the languages are working.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 29 Apr 02 - 10:16 PM

Wilfried
I would beg to disagree with you here. The term "macaronic" also known as "code shifting" is not always used for comic effect. The phenomenon is to be found in every situation where two, or indeed more, languages find themselves co-existing.
At its most crude it consists of merely substituting a word in one language for its equivalent in another. At its most sophisticated, the two languages are interwoven in a structured way both in terms of meter and rhyme. This form of macaronic verse requires a deep knowledge of the languages concerned in both the composer and his audience and betrays a sophistication in language use that has gone unappreciated; the main reason being, in my opinion, that monoglot speakers of the individual languages see this verse form as a "pollution" of their native tradition.
It has a long and honoured history, some of the earliest examples occurring in the Latin-Greek macaronic verse of pre-Christian Rome. The earliest example in a European vernacular is a 6th century Irish poem in Irish and Latin.
Annraoi


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:01 AM

Enjoyed reading this thread, and apologies for a drifting question, but I'd rather keep it here than launch a separate thread which could evolve into yet another dialogue of the deaf about current events in what we know with a certain unconscious irony as the Holy Land.

Having long been attracted to multilingual wordplay, I was fascinated as a student by the very idea of Yiddish. I took a course on Yiddish while spending a year studying German in Germany, but it was a descriptive course rather than one designed to impart an ability to speak the language, and I was discouraged by the fact that Yiddish was written in Hebrew characters and that anyway one would really want to have a fairly good idea of both the slavic languages and Hebrew to make sense of it.

Some of the books which I bought at the time, particularly collections of Jewish jokes and sayings by Salcia Landmann, refer to the Ostjuden who are represented as somewhat exotic. I could never figure out if this term refers to unassimilated Jews from the Pale of Settlement who might seem exotic to more assimilated Ashkenazim in Germany, or to Sephardim whose "territory" would extend to the area which we now call the Middle East. From the context it seemed to refer to the latter. Can anyone help in clarifying this?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 05:51 AM

Annraoi,
d'accord - you're right speaking about bilingual or polyglottal poetry. I was speaking about language structure and patterns.

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar,
you're not alone with fascination by Yiddish. In Goethe's autobiography we find that he learned Hebrew at school to understand Yiddish better.
S. Landmann in "Der jüdische Witz" refers mostly to the Ostjuden (Poland, Russia, Galicia). Additional to their Hebrew material they brought in the Slavic words into Yiddish, and their language intonation was far away from the Westerner's erudite pronouciation . Between the Jews in the Reich and and the Ostjuden there was a big cultural gap; the German jews felt mostly German first, serving in the army after the emancipation, and were not so happy about the Eastern Jewish immigrants, as I was told.
Especially the Hassidic element might have been considered more than exotic by the Western Jews, mostly graduated by well known universities.

Wilfried


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 30 Apr 02 - 07:08 AM

Vielen Dank (or should that be "dank"?), Wilfried, you've set my mind at rest after more than thirty years of wandering.

Good old Goethe, he used to be one of my big heroes, I might have guessed he'd be intrigued by Yiddish. I can still remember the buzz I got the first time I went to Strasbourg and stood in front of the Cathedral on an Easter Sunday morning. Instead of just admiring the cathedral I was imagining Goethe standing where I was, seeing himself as Faust and admiring Gretchen at the door.

Without wishing to give offence to any French sensibilities, I've always perceived Strasbourg as being at least as German as it's French because of the Goethe connection, and it is also a major Jewish centre, which makes it all the more appropriate as a seat of Europeanness. It's a pity that Chirac has been so dogged in invoking this history in support of a nationalist assertion of power to keep the European Parliament meeting there in particularly inappropriate working conditions.

James Joyce, as I'm sure you know, was also fascinated by Yiddish, and more generally in Jews and their culture. So it's nice that the two of them should be coupled in the well-known reverse-Irish joke about the English foreman on a building site sneering at a Paddy labourer that he wouldn't know the difference between a joist and a girder. "Of course I do", replied the Irishman, "Joyce wrote Ulysses and Goethe wrote Faust".

Sorry for the meandering thread drift, am I a reincarnation of the wandering goy?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 04 May 02 - 07:04 AM

Annraoi,

my post of April 30 must be revised. Macaronic as "code shifting" does not meet the true sense. It is only connected with poetry. This kind was founded in 15th century in Italy and is based on Latin with vernacular words with correct but abstruse termination; later on it was adopted in several modern European languages (see my example of April 29).
Especially the Enciclopedia Italiana states that macaronic poetry must not be confounded with hybrid languages (like Yiddish or Ladino). Britannica and several dictionaries of history of literature I looked up yesterday in our National Library agree that macaronic poetry rages from funny to burlesque, and macaronic is always used in combination with poetry, nothing else.
Unfortunately you give no examples of Roman or early Irish macaronic poetry but since you are praising the mastership of the languages involved I am sure that you are referring to bilingual poems, i. e. texts in two languages which are both used correctly. This is no macaronic poetry, but an interchange of languages from line to line mostly as we also find it in our Lutheran hymn book where we find the Xmas song "In dulci jubilo, nun singet und seid froh" or in an old clerical song book "Pertransibat clericus durch einen grünen wald" with a crude tenor about the laying (depositio) of a virgin, both with interchanging Latin and German lines and correct use of both languages.

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar, thanks or vielen Dank for your post, especially the joke about the sophisticated Irish worker. I regret that such a fine pun can't be translated into German.
You are right, Strassburg/Strasbourg is a truely European town. It is the only chance to survive in the struggles between France and Germany where this wonderful town had to endure much sadness. A former German Imperial town it was sacked by the French, but when it could pluck the fruits of the French revolution with its civil liberties it came back to the Reich and lost self government like entire Alsatia and was goverend from Berlin, went back to Germany under the Nazis and back again to France. The cultural gap sometimes runs through families as I could notice. In a family I visited the parents and the elder son were bilingual and spoke a lot of Alsatian (German) dialect at home, but the younger son spoke French only. I regard this town as a model for the chances of a United Europe.

Wilfried


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Subject: Avre Tu Puerta Cerrada (Ladino folk song)
From: Genie
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 12:03 AM

Avre Tu Puerta Cerrada (Ladino folk song)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 06:06 AM

There was some discussion upthread about songs that switch back and forth between languages. One beautiful if weird example is Fel Shara, parts of which are in 5 different languages, switching from one to another in the middle of a line. The five languages are Ladino, French, English, and I'm not sure what the other two are - maybe Italian and Arabic. I'd love to know how it came to be that way.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 07:52 AM

There is a North African Jewish singer/oudplayer who visited Edinburgh a few years ago who has a quite magical act that uses that mix of languages. Maybe he wrote or adapted that?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 09:13 AM

Remembered his name: Simon Elbaz. See him if you get the chance.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 01:23 PM

Put Sephardic in filter to bring up other threads.

Not to be confused with the Latin American use of the term Ladino (Guatemala, etc.)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: GUEST,Gerry
Date: 17 Feb 12 - 05:13 PM

Thanks, Jack, I'll keep an eye out for Simon Elbaz. I have two recordings of Fel Shara, neither one mentions him. One recording says nothing at all about the song. The other is by KlezRoym, and the liner notes say, "Fel Shara is a traditional Sephardic love song that effortlessly blends five different languages (Ladino, Italian, French, English and Arabic). The languages shift in mid-phrase, switching between English and French or Italian and Arabic from one word to the next. The song is a perfect example of how both the music and language of the Spanish Jews came to absorb, over the centuries, the musical traditions and languages of the different countries where they settled."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ladino Songs
From: Genie
Date: 18 Feb 12 - 01:40 AM

Thanks for that clarification and suggestion, Q.


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Mudcat time: 18 August 12:53 AM EDT

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