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'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3

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The 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga (161) (closed)


Big Mick 19 Aug 02 - 09:33 PM
GUEST,Dick Gaughan 19 Aug 02 - 09:21 PM
GUEST 14 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM
nickp 14 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,John, Horfield, Bristol 14 Aug 02 - 02:42 AM
GUEST 13 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM
GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol 13 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM
pavane 11 Aug 02 - 05:44 AM
GUEST,Andy, I-O-M 11 Aug 02 - 04:19 AM
GUEST 10 Aug 02 - 02:53 PM
Ralphie 10 Aug 02 - 02:25 PM
pavane 10 Aug 02 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 10 Aug 02 - 04:42 AM
GUEST,guest. John. 10 Aug 02 - 12:50 AM
RolyH 09 Aug 02 - 05:59 PM
pavane 09 Aug 02 - 05:24 PM
GUEST 09 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM
Nerd 09 Aug 02 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,Guest. John. 09 Aug 02 - 06:15 AM
pavane 09 Aug 02 - 04:05 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 09 Aug 02 - 03:58 AM
GUEST 08 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 08 Aug 02 - 12:05 PM
GUEST 08 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM
GUEST,Pat Cooksey. Germany. 08 Aug 02 - 05:48 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 08 Aug 02 - 05:22 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 08 Aug 02 - 03:50 AM
Derby Ram 08 Aug 02 - 03:17 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 07:13 PM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:22 PM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:11 PM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 07 Aug 02 - 12:52 PM
graham_t 07 Aug 02 - 11:57 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Ivan 07 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 08:46 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 AM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 05:06 AM
Derby Ram 07 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM
GUEST 07 Aug 02 - 01:24 AM
GUEST,Ivan 07 Aug 02 - 01:02 AM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM
GUEST,Ivan (ivan@kissmurphy.com.au) 06 Aug 02 - 09:13 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 07:24 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 06:44 PM
Derby Ram 06 Aug 02 - 06:21 PM
GUEST 06 Aug 02 - 04:45 PM
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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Big Mick
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 09:33 PM

Dick, thanks for the clarification. I consider it the final word on the subject. I was hoping you would stop in.

Now........come to Michigan so's I can corner you and sing songs.

All the very best,

Mick Lane mlane@accn.org


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Dick Gaughan
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 09:21 PM

I am not a mudcat regular as I don't allow cookies on my machine but my attention has been drawn to the fact that my name has been bandied about in this thread so I stopped by to take a look. Most of the references to me have been posted by some anonymous troll and I don't enter into discussion with people who post hearsay to public forums but don't have the cojones to identify themselves.

Just to clarify.

I have never at any time been "involved" with CM Distribution in any capacity other than as an artist for whom they released two albums in the 1980s.

I was a partner in Redesdale Recording Studios, where the other partners were Geoff Heslop, Neil Sharpley and David Bulmer - this studio had no direct connection with CM other than the identity of two of the four partners. CM also bought two solo albums and one band album, "The Boys of the Lough", from Highway who had bought them from Leader.

I had been friends with Dave Bulmer for 20 years until 1995 when I made several discoveries which caused me to terminate all dealings with him. I have not spoken to or seen him or had contact of any kind with him since then.

As I said, due to the cookie requirement I'm not a Mudcat member but I have a high opinion of it and of many of the regulars here, which is why I'm posting this. I frequent the newsgroup uk.music.folk and so if anyone wishes me to read or respond to any discussion, they should post there (although I would advise that this topic has been flogged to death there).

In the meantime, the accuracy of any information posted about me should be either verified directly with me - I'm ridiculously easy to communicate with - or taken with a huge shovel of salt.

Especially that posted by nameless "guests".

Cheers Dick Gaughan


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 07:27 AM

Sort of like saying there is such a thing as "clean money".


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: nickp
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM

Hmmm... 'morality in the legal business' ... now where was that thread about oxymorons? *Big Grin*


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,John, Horfield, Bristol
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 02:42 AM

I too am sute that the BBC does not consider CM to be its enemy and I never suggested it either. The point that you have missed, guest, is that the BBC now employ Collyer Bristow to advise musicians how to avoid the "bad guys" of the music business. As this advice is offered by a solicitor )Mr Kanaar?)who has a crusade against bad practice it is hardly acceptable that he should also work for the likes of Dave Bulmer and his companies. Is there no morality in the legal business and is everything up for grabs if the price is right? As a musician who has learned the hard way over many years it now seems that the only way to learn about music biz rip-offs is to experience them. If the BBC offers in house advice it really should ensure that the solicitor it engages has clean hands. Essentially it's down to morals of which there are very few in the music business and those who feed off it. But I'm sure that the unnamed gust will take issue with that as well!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 02:31 PM

I'm not sure that the BBC considers Celtic Music it's "enemy" in the sense that people posting to these threads consider Celtic Music theirs.

I have no insider information either pavane. Nor do I personally know any of the people who inhabit this forum as members. Just an observer with a healthy amount of skepticism about the villification of others in public forums.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Mike, Horfield, Bristol
Date: 13 Aug 02 - 12:26 PM

I checked out Mr Kanaar and you might like to see the extract on him from the web; 31 May 2001 - Kanaar joins forces with Collyer-Bristow

Renowned music and entertainment lawyer Nick Kanaar and his practice, Kanaar & Co, are to join forces on 1 June 2001 with the entertainment team at Holborn firm Collyer-Bristow, led by partner Howard Ricklow. The appointment of Kanaar, and assistant Neil Parkes, brings the Collyer-Bristow team to five lawyers representing a rapidly expanding client list featuring well known names from Status Quo to dance music act Chicane. Kanaar is of course a well-known figure in the industry, and has been active on both contentious and non-contentious issues for many years.

"I am delighted to be able to draw on the skills of my colleagues at Collyer-Bristow who are experts in particular areas of law that will be invaluable to many of my clients." says Kanaar of his decision to join Collyer-Bristow. "I have always been driven by the concept of providing a 'cradle-to-grave' service for my clients and increasing regulation and specialisation means that this is becoming more difficult as a specialist practitioner. I can now call on legal experts in areas such as e-commerce, property, family issues and personal tax".

For further information contact:

Nick Kanaar, Collyer-Bristow, 020 7242 7363

Now it seems he is working for Bulmer! Still it should be a warning to any musicians who might be considering taking legal advice to look elsewhere. I really do believe that if a lawyer struts his stuff as "the artistes friend" he should be very careful of who he supps with. In view of the legal case being brought by Pat I wonder if the BBC are aware that their expert serves also "the other side"? As you say Andy (I.O.M.) it really is a funny old World.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 05:44 AM

I hope that someone will still keep us up to date with progress. I have no other information available than is found in these threads.

(PS : To clarify - I do not personally know ANY of the other thread contributors, nor am I connected in any way with Nic or any of the other artists, so I have no source of 'inside' information)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, I-O-M
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 04:19 AM

I wonder if Guest who queried my postings is a CM'er? As I said in an earlier posting, I have a pal who has dealt with Bulmer and Sharpley (and not just in relation to their record/publishing business)and he is adamant that whilst another solicitor is appointed he is virtually a "front". Most of us suspect that Mr B would be terminally maudlin if he has to use his own cash to fund anything - least alone an expensive London lawyer. Logic suggests also that Mr S calls the shots and instructs the lawyer, Mr Kanaar, so the nasty regime continues virtually seamlessly. Pat may have had similar dealings but as his case is probably sub judice he may not wish to comment. I am sure he is aware. Sorry also to see Ralphie leave the forum. Come back soon. I too will not be writing further but will watch with immense interest how the legal case brought by Pat proceeds. Good luck to everyone who has an interest in bringing this seedy company to its knees after all it has done to damage folk music and some of its most important artistes.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:53 PM

Andy, you are giving what looks like it could be contradictory information here. Would you mind clarifying it for me?

First you said that Bulmer had obtained new counsel (8 Aug 12:05):

"Making further enquiries about Mr Bulmer's new solicitor reveals that he is a consultant with Collyer Bristow in London and that he is the man who assists new artists and musicians, through the BBC, with sage advice on how to avoid the traps used by Celtic Music/Records/Distribution."

But later you said (10 Aug 4:42):

"...in the past he has always had his partner Sharpley to fire off the poisonous and threatening letters. I am sure that he is probably still relying on Sharpley to do that even though he no longer can call himself "solicitor"."

Could you clarify this information for us? Do you have first hand information as to who the solicitors are for Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer? It would probably be helpful to someone like Pat, who is trying to compile information about it for their own case.

As to the contract issue, I agree with Guest John. There is one set of artists who who signed contracts with Celtic Music directly. They have a different set of legal issues with Bulmer than do the artists who originally signed contracts with the record labels which were subsequently bought up by Bulmer when those labels went out of business.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Ralphie
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 02:25 PM

Hi Chaps.
I think it is about time that I bowed out of this discussion. My personal spat with our well regarded GUEST has muddied the waters somewhat.
I'll continue to read everything that is posted on this thread, and please keep it alive.
I still contend that the situation regarding CM and the artists (and NO. "Mrs GUEST", I don't just mean NJ...) is a very sad situation, and I'm very glad that a lot of people have realised this fact.
Having seen the list of artists affected by Mr B's involvement in the English Folk Scene....makes me very angry...But....there you go.
To Pat Cooksey.....Good luck mate...to Andy Iom., Pavane, Noreen,Nerd etc, and all the other people who feel strongly..Keep going. I will too, but in another way. Not in this forum.
One way or another, Mr Bulmer will have to give in eventually.

Thanks to you all for your contributions.
All the best Ralphie
PS. Oh, and thanks to our un-named GUEST for some interesting thoughts, and for not answering the majority of questions posed...It was fun.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 06:57 AM

I think this business of CM's contracts is not relevant to most of the works, which were recorded under contracts with other companies.

As for obtaining any settlement, as discussed above, even if you can afford the expense and win the case, you will very likely be unable to collect your winnings. 'Phoenix' companies are very often used, so much so that the Government has created legislation which can be used to remove the protection of the limited company, and make Directors personally liable for debts - but this is unlikely to help in this case.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 04:42 AM

We have heard from many people who have dealt with CM and Bulmer etc - not often with fond memories either. Of course Bulmer puts his head in the noose when trading near to the edge of decency etc but in the past he has always had his partner Sharpley to fire off the poisonous and threatening letters. I am sure that he is probably still relying on Sharpley to do that even though he no longer can call himself "solicitor". When hit by the sort of vitriol that Sharpley can write (AND I HAVE SEEN SUCH A LETTER) it is quite possible to understand why people take cover. In the case of the Sharpley designed CM Records contract, I wonder if the artist is recommended to seek independednt legal advice? I understand that this was rarely if ever the case. It is very likely (perhaps others may agree) that at least one of the unnamed GUEST correspondants is Bulmer and or Sharpley and if so lads, why not come clean and let us see a CM contract?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,guest. John.
Date: 10 Aug 02 - 12:50 AM

Mr Bulmer may be all the things people say of him but a fool he is not. He will be fully aware of the legal position regarding his re'issues and would not put his head in a noose unless he was certain of his position under copywright law. Moral or intellectual rights do not concern him, and it is therefore up to the artists concerned to challenge him in the courts if they believe they have a case.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: RolyH
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 05:59 PM

pavane

Like it!Direct and to the point.Basically there is a lot of good music that is unavailable to the listening public in a decent (and legal?) format, if at all.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 05:24 PM

I think most of us would like the music to be made available and packaged to proper professional standards! Both in the recording and in the royalties.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 04:53 PM

Actually Nerd, I wasn't suggesting that no solicitor would take the case because they can't win it. Solicitors take on cases they KNOW they can't win all the time, if they want to earn a living at law. Solicitors fees are not based upon whether they win or not, unless they take on the case for a % of the settlement or judgment.

Again, none of us are solicitors or entertainment lawyers are we? So to make absolutist statements about what each of us personally *believes* (as opposed to knows) is right or winnable, seems a bit silly to me. All we are discussing is pure conjecture. And I do believe if there were a really solid legal case to be put forward against Bulmer, someone certainly would have done it by now. Like it or not, the law may well be more on Bulmer's side than the artists.

I don't like that fact, but unless Pat is able to come up with a substantial judgment or settlement, I think we should all just accept things as they are, and move on. Nobody is holding a gun to artists' heads and making them sign contracts with Bulmer, right?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 03:10 PM

I should say that we aren't really dealing with crap packaging, paste-on labels and such. Sellers as well as buyers could well mistake these CDRs for real CDs, because they're pretty well packaged, which is the point. It's not super, top-of-the-line packaging, but then neither were the orignal LPs. I don't think the "derogation" argument would work on those grounds.

But I do think that what our GUEST is suggesting, ie that no solicitor would take the case because they can't win it, is wrong. (Well, it's obviously wrong because Pat Cooksey's solicitor has taken the case!) Many solicitors would advise against a suit because in the event that you win, there is a danger that Bulmer will dissolve the old company or transfer the assets in question to a new one. He has done so before, which accounts for the Celtic Music, CM distribution, Leader, Trailer, and other labels he's released his CDs on.

What he is doing as regards non-payment of royalties is clearly illegal, AND immoral, but it remains to be seen how enforceable the laws are given the loopholes in the system. I hope Pat Cooksey's case shows that such a case CAN be won, and can be enforced.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Guest. John.
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 06:15 AM

The laws regarding intellectual and moral rights are to protect the owner of copywright. In the case of Mr Bulmers re'issues it would appear that he owns the copywrights in question. MCPS/PRS and other collection agencies do not intervene in disputes between members and it is therefore up to the artist or artists concerned to regain the rights to their work through the courts. If any of the artists have recording contracts with Celtic Music and the terms of these contracts have not been honoured then they have a case in law under breach of contract. I have no idea of the position with regard to music catalogues aquired from other labels.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: pavane
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 04:05 AM

Isn't it time for part 4?

PS It is not 'old computers' which are the cause of the problem, it is the slow dial-up lines. Even the very oldest 486 can cope with the transmission speed (but maybe not under the burden of the Windows operating system!)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 09 Aug 02 - 03:58 AM

To GUEST I must reply that in "these circumstances" economic AND moral rights are infringed. The notion of moral rights is now incorporated in law within the Copyright Acts and was presumably not just thrown in to the Act as an afterthought. Are you inferring that Celtic Music issuing poorly packaged, poorly labelled CDR's and pasing them off effectively as original recordings does not infringe moral and integrity rights - leaving aside the other matter of economic "economising" by that company? I am not a lawyer and I dont know an lawyers closely enough to have anything ther than personal views. You sound as if you do ..... if you know what I mean.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 02:50 PM

Non-legal minded people "imagining there is little doubt" Andy, isn't exactly the same thing to a solicitor taking on a case they don't think they can win. I believe these circumstances are ones that concern, in a legal sense, economic rights, not moral rights. But as I said, I'm no legal expert, and I'm guessing your aren't either. Which is why no one is paying us for legal opinions, eh? ;-)


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 12:05 PM

Another clause in the moral rights issue is that certain "integrity rights" also exist when an artists work is being derogated. I imagine that there is little doubt that an artists work is being derogated when it is home crafter (almost) on a CDR. Add a crap prited inlay slip and a stick on label suggest to me that it is indeed an inferior piece. Also perhaps the misleading ident of the CDR's intimating (deceiving??) one into thinking its an "original" again suggests to me that the artists moral and integrity rights have very much been infringed. Making further enquiries about Mr Bulmer's new solicitor reveals that he is a consultant with Collyer Bristow in London and that he is the man who assists new artists and musicians, through the BBC, with sage advice on how to avoid the traps used by Celtic Music/Records/Distribution. As I said, its a funny old World.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 09:39 AM

Ralphie, I have no connection whatsoever to Bulmer or Celtic Music. I know you really want to believe I do however, because that makes it easy for you to justify in your mind the vengeful tactics you've been using in a sad attempt to deflect criticism for the ways the Jones camp has handled this. All I have to say to that Ralphie is, its your karma, and I'm glad it ain't mine.

As to the moral rights issue, I realize it exists. But as a quick trip to the website provided by Andy shows, it isn't used in these sorts of economic disputes over who owns rights and masters. The moral rights case law is used when someone takes the song or play or book of another, changes it in some substantial way (ie something slanderous or disrespectful, for example) that could damage the reputation of the artist who originally created the product.

It would be extremely difficult to prove Nic's case, or any others, was one of moral rights, rather than economic rights. Again, as I've said over and over, I don't think the Jones camp is 100% right and Bulmer 100% wrong, or vice versa. Nothing is ever that simple.

And Pat, I wish you the very best of luck with your case.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Pat Cooksey. Germany.
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 05:48 AM

Details of my case are in the hands of a lawyer in London and I intend to proceed.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 05:22 AM

Anyone interested might like to check this web page:

www.intellectual-property.gov.uk/std/ faq/copyright/moral_rights.htm


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:50 AM

Sorry but as I said, I only wrote what I understood. Moral rights do exist. Perhaps the best person to contact about such matters might be Mr Kanaar.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 08 Aug 02 - 03:17 AM

Ah! fine GUEST.
I don't think that floating an idea in an open Web forum for general discussion is a hanging offence just yet!!

BTW, As you are so obviously associated with Celtic Music in some way. I find it surprising that you keep replying to all this, thus keeping the subject alive. I would have thought that the last thing that Mr B would want is for people to be discussing his activities world wide. Looking back through this whole sorry tale, we've contributions from Europe, the US, Australia, NZ. And there are now a lot more people interested.

Pat Cooksey....Any updates to your situation?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 07:13 PM

Well Ralphie, I think you are asking the wrong person for approval of your scheme to defraud. You do know that they all can be contacted online, and all your fraud schemes you are going on about reported? And that of course would mean an investigation, and all sorts of inconvenient things like that.

Come to think of it, why hasn't Nic Jones availed himself of these services?

How about you ask the question of the MU? Or the Mechanical-Copyright Society? Ring up the UK office of the Guild of International Songwriters, and see what they have to say about your scheme for defrauding a busines person who's practices you don't like?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 PM

Dear GUEST (0846)
Please read what is written. Far from selling copies, I propose to give them away to anyone who wants one. It would cost me money to produce them admittedly, but at least it would deny income to CM. And, as the artists concerned wouldn't get a penny either way. I don't see that there is a problem. Do you?
Of course, if any artist wished to proceed with another course of action...fine.
Graham T. Are you referring to the various anthologies of revered artists released, recently by another well known UK company perchance?
Andy I.O.M. Funny Old World indeed !
Regards all...Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM

Here are some "straight from the horse's mouth" websites with more information. Musicians: EDUCATE YOURSELVES!

BMI's FAQ:

http://www.bmi.com/licensing/business/generalfaq.asp

UK specific websites:

The Performing Rights Society:

http://www.prs.co.uk/

Mechanical-Copyright Protection Society:

http://www.mcps.co.uk/

British Academy of Composers and Songwriters:

http://www.britishacademy.com/

British Music Rights:

http://www.bmr.org/html/guide2.html

The Guild of International Songwriters and Composers UK:

http://www.songwriters-guild.co.uk/


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:22 PM

Grahamt--royalties always go to the owner of the rights, and often that is not the same person as the composer of the song. That is what I was alluding to when I mentioned Paul McCartney.

The Urban Legends website has an excellent little synopsis of the issues involved in these sorts of circumstances:

http://198.64.129.160/music/artists/jackson.htm


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:11 PM

Andy, could you give us some solid information on these legal "moral rights" loopholes of which you speak? I'm damn suspicious about that one. Like citing some case law (you claim there is some) that would be relevant?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 12:52 PM

As I understand there now exists the notion/case law of "moral rights". Not being a lawyer I am unsure just what this means, but it sounds as if it leaves a loophole to be tested in law when a record company apparently fails to honour its obligations to artistes. I am also told by a friend who has dealt with Bulmer that now Sharpley has been "defrocked" by his Professional body, Bulmer is using a London solicitor called Nick Kanaar who, strangely in view of the circumstances, claims to work for "oppressed" artistes. I wonder what he would make of all the hostility and (alleged) impropriety of his client? Funny old World.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: graham_t
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:57 AM

I wonder if retailers such as HMV, Borders etc (where I have occasionally seen CM CDRs for sale) would sell them if they knew they were CDRs. I've never purchased anything, even on the smallest of labels from any reputable retailer that has turned out to be CDR though there could be other examples I don't know of.

What happens in the case of tracks licensed from CM to other labels as has happened recently. Do the royalties go straight to the artists or back to CM and hence ??


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:38 AM

Ivan, I'm no legal expert, and you should never get legal advice/opinions from lay people in internet chat forums--especially folk music chat forums engaged in the kind of misinformation this issue has generated!

OK, having qualified my statement first, I will simply say it is my understanding that the reason why the alleged aggrieved musicians have not pursued court cases against Bulmer is because the courts are highly unlikely to overturn Bulmer's rights of ownership to both the masters and the rights, which he gained fair and square when he bought the Leader/Trailer catalogs. It is also my understanding of UK law that the masters and the rights go to the new owner of the catalog upon their sale to a third party, unless otherwise stipulated in the original contract. So as I understand it, the musicians who originally signed contracts with Leader/Trailer didn't have stipulations in their contracts for the masters and rights to revert to them, rather than a third party, upon sale of the Leader/Trailer companies.

As I've said repeatedly, it isn't Dave Bulmer's fault that so many folk musicians fail to exercise their legal rights by refusing to consult qualified solicitors to review their contracts and advise them on how to proceed.

Especially, as Michael Ollier pointed out, Northumbrian pipers who WERE forewarned, forearmed, advised by many seasoned professionals, etc etc!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 11:22 AM

Thanks again Guest for your observations. One question though: when you say that the artists' rights go to the new owner and not the artist, does that mean that all royalties fall to the new owner and that Bulmer is thus under no legal obligation to pay royalties (or any other payment)? If that is the case then it would indeed seem difficult to get anywhere on this front, although surely there is some recourse over the issue of CDRs, or could this also be interpreted as falling within the law? Is the answer (for new artists) to ensure that any contract stipulates that all rights return to them if the catalogue is sold on? Is it possible to exert sufficient sway with a record company to get such a contract drawn up?

Cheers


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 08:46 AM

Good idea--bootleg the Celtic Music CDRs, advertise it on the internet (making it explicit and clear that you are bootlegging on behalf of Nic Jones, of course) and then see what the MU does to defend Nic. I'm sure they'll agree that since you have the moral high ground, that bootlegging is JUST FINE!


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:15 AM

Could be a great idea Ralphie, but why put ANY money into CM Records coffers? As these titles appear "iff -y", why not simply organise things so just ONE person buys a copy and then copies that bigtime? Leave CM racks full of unsaleable merchandise. As CM appears to be booting/counterfeiting the things anyway,it's a bit difficult to imagine why they could do without blowing the lid on their own practices.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 05:06 AM

Definition of "JIHAD" according to Chambers dictionary:
2.A Fervent Crusade.

Not being a Muslim myself, the first does not really apply, and as for the 2nd definition...Guilty as charged!
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 04:56 AM

Just a little thought...
I wonder what would happen if we all bought a copy of a Celtic Music CDR, copied it for our friends for Christmas, enclosing a note inviting the recipient to make a donation directly to the artist/artists involved in the original recording.
Hopefully the results of this action would be twofold.
Firstly, The music would be back in the public domain, and secondly the artists would recieve some recompense for their work, which they would not otherwise get.
Any comments?
Cheers
Ralphie


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:24 AM

Ivan, I have no idea what the Celtic Music contracts say, as I've never seen one. However, there are laws which regulate the payment of royalties after the rights have been sold. In other words, once the Leader/Trailer catalogs were sold, the artists' rights went to the new owner, and didn't revert to the artists, as they would in a more perfect music business world in capitalist societies.

I'm also willing to stick my neck out and make a WAG that most of the people shooting off their mouths about this subject have never seen a Celtic Music contract, or have any idea how business law works in this area either. Of course, that hasn't stopped them from spreading lots of moralistic opinions and misinformation as facts.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 07 Aug 02 - 01:02 AM

Thanks to the last contributor for the information. Very interesting and impartial account. Do you know in what way the musicians are said to have 'signed their rights away'. Did their contracts stipulate that they would be paid a one-off sum for the recording with no royalties due or some such thing (once de rigeur in the Jamaican music industry)?

Cheers

Ivan


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:57 PM

Oh, and I meant to quote from a post over in uk.music.folk not too long ago, by Michael Ollier. He summed this whole thing up quite brilliantly I thought. Here is just an excerpt of this post:

I...had dealings with many musicians. The name of DB comes up quite often. I will not say who they are, that's for them to discuss (but there are a lot of big names) but they all snarl at the mere mention of the name. One female performer went apoplectic. One guy turned to me and said "Don't mention that fuckers name to me again" and stormed off. He didn't speak to me the rest of the weekend. One of the best was one of DGs fellow members in Clan Alba, who kept me regalled with a tirade for a couple of hours in a Glasgow hotel, nest to the railway station which I'm sure Dick knows very well. He didn't like my bodhran jokes however, may he RIP...I have heard of a couple of people 'sticking up' for him (one prominent folkie magazine in particular and, sad to say, one very funny musician who I rather like... can't get his records though!!))... but after all the stories you've heard you should think of others part in this...We also advised some people not to sign with him, then watched as their music was suppressed. People (especially musicians) never learn: especially Northumbrian Pipers!!

End quote


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 11:48 PM

There was one case that I am aware of which supposedly was settled out of court against Bulmer. That case was detailed in article in the Guardian in 1997, which stated:

"...two alleged victims...Gary and Glen Millar of the Durham-based Whiskey Priests, who received no royalties for their albums "Nee Gud-Luck", and "The First Few Drops", after signing up with Celtic Music in the Eighties. In 1993 they took their case to the HIgh Court and, in an out-of-court settlement, obtained costs and the recording and publishing rights to everything they had done."

Whether the awards actually were as stated above or not, I have no idea. Such settlements usually require neither party disclose the terms of the settlement. The same article also claimed:

"At least five cases have been brought against Mr Bulmer's music firms. Some have been defended by Neil Sharpley, his partner and lawyer."

I've never heard about any of these, other than in this article. I can't vouch for the veracity of the claims made therein either. But before people get all up in arms about the awful partners of Mr. Bulmer, they would do well to remember that another of Mr. Bulmer's parters, for 15 years, was Dick Gaughan. Dick Gaughan himself has since admitted that he gave Bulmer advice to buy up the catalogs so either an academic institution wouldn't get them, or an American interest like the Library of Congress plunder the "national treasure" (sic) of the nation's folk traditions. Apparently, what is good for the goose is not good for gander when it comes to plundering other nation's cultural treasures.

Of course, Gaughan himself since claims to have been hung out to dry in the partnership too.

Notice how I'm not defending anyone here. Just pointing out what a convoluted mess this is. Gaughan himself said he doubted that any artist could get a court to overturn the issue of the rights to the music and the masters. And he said that in the very same thread that the Guardian article was posted to, so it isn't as if he wasn't aware of the settlement for the Millars. Yet he, like everyone else, has remained silent on the issue of the other court cases alluded to in Guardian article. I have no reason why.

There is no condoning what Bulmer is doing. But there is also no condoning the ways that the Jones Jihad'ers have reacted to this situation either. An eye for eye leaves two men blind, after all.


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST,Ivan (ivan@kissmurphy.com.au)
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 09:13 PM

Hang about! There's some oversight in the arguments you are putting forward, fellow 'Guest'. You keep reiterating that there is 'no proof of legal wrongdoing' by CM/Bulmer, yet you yourself concede, at the least, that it is wrong to market CDRs at full price, as though they were legitimately manufactured (instead of bearing a bright red sticker stating 'WARNING: THESE ARE LOW-COST, LOW-QUALITY CDRs WHICH CUT EXPENSES BY AVOIDING ROYALTY PAYMENTS'). This is surely some sort of fraud, in terms of the Trade Practices Act (or whatever the equivalent is in the UK - I am writing from Australia). Having conceded that this is, in your own words, 'wrong', how do you maintain there is no proof of legal wrongdoing. Even if, in the tortuous terms of the law (which have little to do with ethics), this cannot definitively be proved to be LEGALLY malfeasant, then it is surely a sign of devious and unethical business practice. You also state that you are as much "on the artists' side as the next guy when it comes to them being paid fairly for their creative output, as well as being in control of how it gets used, when and by whom", yet you ultimately dismiss these claims/rights(?) because you say (and I personally don't know any details of the actual contractual/legal history here and so don't know if what you say is correct) that they signed those rights away out of, what is, at worst, a youthful naivety/ignorance. Should they really have to pay all their lives for such a thing? Regardless of the exactitudes of legal arguments, what about the ethics of it? Why is it really that you take the stance you do? Surely it is clear that Bulmer has not acted ethically, either with regard to his customers or the artists whose material he now "owns" (surely, in the larger framework, there is something wrong with a legal system that allows one person to utterly reap the benefits of others' creative labour with no real effort or input from him). He is also showing no regard for the public interest, in that he is utterly placing his self-interest against the larger interests of the public culture, in that he is withholding a very substantial contribution to UK culture from that public, for reasons that are not clear. Hypothetically, how would everyone feel if it were conceivable for a book publising company to buy up the rights to the works of, say, a large portion of the quality literature written in the UK between, say, 1970 and 1990, and then almost entirely withholding it from print. There would be an outcry and such a publisher would be howled down on the grounds of denying the public access to a vital part of its self-defining heritage. Why do you, by implication, side with Bulmer in this argument? Why do you not recognise the basic injustice here, for it is this that upsets people? It is clearly unjust, whatever the legalities? It is hard not to imagine you have some personal axe to grind here. Why do you not declare your identity. You pounced, with alacrity and delight, when you thought (mistakenly) that you had perceived some self-interest on Ralph Jordan's part. Could it be that you have some sort of interest in the Bulmer position and were delighted to think you had found self-interest in others because you perceive it in your own position and are stung by the thought that the vitriol could be turned on you if your interests were declared? Besides, what of the fact that Nic Jones stands to gain here? So he should. HE sat down and taught himself the guitar and attained a state of high accomplishment. HE went through the archives and chose the material. He pondered it long and hard, invented tunes, spent hours exploring the possibilities of melody, rhythm and tuning on his guitar and in his mind. He toured up and down the country to earn a living. HE played the material in the studio. HE sang it. HE created it. He gave a lifetime of hard-won expertise to it. What did Bulmer do? Paid a pittance for a bankrupt company then sells the music on poorly pressed material while so arranging his affairs to dodge his debt to the artists he makes money from, a debt both MORAL and ETHICAL if not legal, and it should be legal, as even under a fully legal regimen most of the profits would be (unjustly) his anyway. How can you defend this?

I would like to know what, if any, legal action HAS been taken against Mr Bulmer, by whom, and how the action fared. Have people made the effort of contacting the police, or a Consumer Complaints body, about the CDRs? Has anyone challenged his refusal to pay royalties?

Ivan


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 07:24 PM

GUEST...
Please tell, I'd love to know.
Regards Ralphie xx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:44 PM

I've done a lot of things in my life Ralphie, who wants to know?


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: Derby Ram
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 06:21 PM

GUEST
Mmmmmm....Stand to gain a lot of money do I??
As Producer of "Unearthed"....I received the princely sum of ten bars of "Kit-Kat" (A UK confectionary) from Julia J.
All the work I undertook for the "Jones Jihad Clan Sect"...Oh Fuck, Whatever you call it, was done out of love for the family.....and my commitment to an old friend who'd fallen on hard times....What have you done?
Regards Ralphie xxxxxx


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Subject: RE: 'Celtic Music/Dave Bulmer' saga: Part 3
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Aug 02 - 04:45 PM

I don't believe for an instant that if Bulmer re-released everything he's got to the prevailing standard, that people would simply let this matter drop. Because that isn't what this is about. It is about money for the people who stand to gain some, and about begrudgery among those who don't.

I'm just fed up with the sickening double standard from the lot of you. Fed up with the self-righteous moralizing. Maybe if the amount of energy poured into the villification campaign had been positive rather than negative, we'd see a high quality series of reissues by now.

As it is, I don't blame Bulmer for holding back at this point, considering the level of vehemence this well orchestrated anti-Celtic Music campaign has engaged in.


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