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Dave Bulmer (discussion)

Related threads:
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GUEST,Tunesmith 13 Mar 05 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Greycap 13 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM
GUEST,MCP 13 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM
GUEST,Tunesmith 14 Mar 05 - 05:37 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 14 Mar 05 - 07:36 PM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man 15 Mar 05 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 15 Mar 05 - 11:40 AM
Leadfingers 15 Mar 05 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 15 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM
Lancashire Lad 15 Mar 05 - 01:31 PM
GUEST 15 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM
treewind 15 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM
dick greenhaus 15 Mar 05 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 17 Mar 05 - 10:23 AM
GUEST,George. 17 Mar 05 - 11:34 PM
pavane 18 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM
GUEST 18 Mar 05 - 08:44 AM
manitas_at_work 18 Mar 05 - 09:38 AM
GUEST,Burner 18 Mar 05 - 01:52 PM
GUEST 18 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Mar 05 - 02:39 PM
GUEST 19 Mar 05 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,TS in US 20 Apr 05 - 12:17 AM
English Jon 20 Apr 05 - 04:58 AM
Richard Bridge 20 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM
Ralphie 20 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM
pavane 21 Apr 05 - 07:32 AM
dick greenhaus 21 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM
Richard Bridge 21 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,Brenda 21 Apr 05 - 07:31 PM
GUEST,Guest 22 Apr 05 - 05:00 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 22 Apr 05 - 06:42 AM
Dita 22 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 23 Apr 05 - 03:46 PM
Malcolm Douglas 23 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM
GUEST,guest 26 Apr 05 - 08:44 AM
*Laura* 26 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 30 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM
GUEST 30 Apr 05 - 09:01 AM
Betsy 14 Jul 07 - 04:56 AM
Joe Offer 14 Jul 07 - 05:13 AM
Betsy 14 Jul 07 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Ruaridh.G. 29 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM
The Sandman 29 Oct 07 - 02:54 PM
Malcolm Douglas 29 Oct 07 - 03:11 PM
Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 19 Jan 08 - 10:48 AM
GUEST,Seamus 07 Feb 08 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 07 Feb 08 - 04:22 PM
Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M 08 Feb 08 - 03:40 AM
pavane 08 Feb 08 - 06:26 AM
GeoffLawes 08 Feb 08 - 09:57 AM
The Borchester Echo 08 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM
pavane 08 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice 08 Feb 08 - 11:06 AM
pavane 08 Feb 08 - 11:17 AM
GeoffLawes 08 Feb 08 - 11:18 AM
pavane 08 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM
dick greenhaus 08 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM
pavane 11 Feb 08 - 03:00 AM
Folk Form # 1 11 Feb 08 - 10:58 AM
GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice 11 Feb 08 - 11:07 AM
pavane 11 Feb 08 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,michael jacksy 12 Jan 12 - 06:23 AM
GUEST,Raphie 12 Jan 12 - 11:24 AM
GUEST,Michael jacksy 12 Jan 12 - 02:10 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 13 Jan 12 - 02:51 AM
GUEST,Tom Millett (Sydney) 26 Feb 12 - 12:05 AM
GUEST,Ian Croft 26 Feb 12 - 07:40 AM
ChrisJBrady 13 May 12 - 09:26 AM
Steve Shaw 14 May 12 - 06:40 AM
ChrisJBrady 15 May 12 - 03:21 AM
Fossil 15 May 12 - 04:27 AM
Roger the Skiffler 15 May 12 - 09:08 AM
Fossil 16 May 12 - 05:47 AM
ChrisJBrady 16 May 12 - 08:19 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 12 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 16 May 12 - 10:29 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 16 May 12 - 10:46 AM
Steve Shaw 16 May 12 - 01:32 PM
Fossil 17 May 12 - 05:23 AM
treewind 17 May 12 - 05:42 AM
Roger the Skiffler 17 May 12 - 06:16 AM
Ross Campbell 28 Jun 12 - 03:27 PM
Surreysinger 28 Jun 12 - 08:35 PM
Ross Campbell 04 Jul 12 - 06:58 PM
GUEST,Jasper 15 Jul 12 - 07:24 PM
GUEST,CJB 23 Mar 18 - 04:44 AM
GUEST,Guest 23 Mar 18 - 06:44 PM
Steve Shaw 23 Mar 18 - 08:35 PM
punkfolkrocker 23 Mar 18 - 08:48 PM
The Sandman 24 Mar 18 - 03:56 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 24 Mar 18 - 08:51 AM
The Sandman 24 Mar 18 - 01:21 PM
GUEST,Guest 25 Mar 18 - 07:26 PM
Steve Shaw 25 Mar 18 - 08:44 PM
punkfolkrocker 25 Mar 18 - 11:16 PM
GUEST,Guest 26 Mar 18 - 06:41 PM
The Sandman 26 Mar 18 - 07:03 PM
GUEST,Guest 27 Mar 18 - 03:16 PM
punkfolkrocker 28 Mar 18 - 10:00 AM
The Sandman 28 Mar 18 - 11:13 AM
Howard Jones 30 Mar 18 - 05:27 AM
The Sandman 30 Mar 18 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,kenny 30 Mar 18 - 12:58 PM
Howard Jones 31 Mar 18 - 01:58 AM
FScott 11 Apr 18 - 04:10 PM
FScott 11 Apr 18 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Guest (non defender) 11 Apr 18 - 06:04 PM
Jeri 11 Apr 18 - 06:28 PM
GUEST,Captain Swing 11 Apr 18 - 06:31 PM
Steve Shaw 11 Apr 18 - 07:08 PM
The Sandman 12 Apr 18 - 05:55 AM
GUEST,Peter 12 Apr 18 - 10:00 AM
punkfolkrocker 12 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM
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Subject: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 02:47 PM

I want to drop Dave Bulmer a note. Where should I address it? No rude replies please!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:10 PM

Try:
Celtic Music,
Harrogate,
N. Yorkshire
It's on an industrial estate and I don't know the actual street. He won't answer, of course.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 13 Mar 05 - 03:17 PM

Address, phone, fax and Dave Bulmer's direct line are available on the Musical Traditions site: Mustrad Addresses.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 05:37 AM

Thanks for the info


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 14 Mar 05 - 07:36 PM

Oh for fuck's sake.....

The guy runs a business. So did all the people he did business with. Since when did he become the antichrist?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:29 AM

To Chris B   - you really should read the long article about Mr Bulmer and his business practices which appeared in The Observer some years back. If you havent worked him out when you do read it,you will be in something of a minority!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:40 AM

Andy,

Yeah, yeah, I know. I met the bloke once and didn't like him much. And I feel sorry for Nic Jones, though if he's getting the full range of benefits he's entitled to he may well have an income comparable to what he might have expected from royalties if he'd signed a different deal (with Bill Leader, who originally recorded him)- not that it's any of my (or your) business. But one of the major gripes against Bulmer seems to be that he's sitting on the tapes of lots of folk records from the 60s and 70s - which he presumably paid someone for. Does it really matter that much in the great scheme of things that you can't buy the first Swan Arcade LP anymore?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 11:47 AM

Chris B - The problem seems to be NOT that we cant buy the first Swan Arcade LP but that artists are being prevented from doing any thing with material they recorded and which Mr Bulmer now owns the reproduction rights to . Or at least , IF he is going to permit them access to what ,in my opinion , is THEIRS they cant make any money out of it !


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM

Well, there's the rub, isn't it? If he does own the rights how did he come by them? I can understand how artists may be frustrated at not having access to their own old recordings but presumably no-one forced any of them to sign their rights away at gunpoint. I would love to be able to buy 'Rout of the Blues' but I missed it first time round and I've managed to live without it.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:31 PM

Just to put a spanner in the works

Rout of the Blues has been re-issued. I saw it on line. It must be one of DB's as it was on Leader
Cheers
LL (who's learnt to keep his head down in the great Dave Bulmer debate)


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 01:53 PM

Probably CDR. Probably no royalties paid. Probably no harm done though.

Debate: who's the biggest shit on the folk scene, Dave Bulmer of Celtic Music or Ian A. Anderson of Folk Roots?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: treewind
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 02:31 PM

if he does own the rights how did he come by them

In the case of Leader and at least one other label, by buying bankrupt stock from the receiver. His legal entitlement to the rights is not in question.

Hasn't this all been gone through enough times already?

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Mar 05 - 10:20 PM

Yes,Rout of the Blues is a CDR. No, there will be no royalties paid until a copy is sold. A while back, I asked anyone who's been stiffed by Celtic Music to notify me, and I'd make good on royalty payments--so far, no applicants.

And yes, CAMSCO Music carries all of Celtic Music's releases. Including the Leader label, Dambuster label and a bunch of others.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 10:23 AM

Dick,

Thanks for that. I may well be in touch.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,George.
Date: 17 Mar 05 - 11:34 PM

If as Dick Greenhaus says, nobody want's to buy The Rout of the Blues, then the English folk scene really has hit an all time low.
If the Dransfields can't sell, then IMHO there is little chance
for anyrhing else the odiuos Bulmer might hold.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:25 AM

Perhaps the boycott is working


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 08:44 AM

Dave Bulmer is just a subject the begrudgers love to whine about in order to be accepted by their peer group. It is an unwritten rule of the contemporary English neo-folk scene that one must have the Folk Roots version of the anti-Bulmer rap down, if one is to be accepted down at the folk club.

The rest of the world music community be damned, of course. By now, everyone should know that only England's opinions matter...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 09:38 AM

It's got nothing to do with England's opinions. It's a beef that many people on the folk scene have with Dave Bulmer. If he is selling CDs and not passing on royalties they have a right to whinge, in fact thay have a right to whinge anyway - in this case they have a reason to whinge.

But why pick on England, anyway? A look at Google will reveal he has upset Scots and Irish as well.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Burner
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 01:52 PM

So how many of you sainted contribituters have NEVER coppied a CD or tape or LP? Let them without sin cast the first stone. Just about any one who deals in folk music recordings, work with Messers Celtic Music/ D.Bulmer, big name artists and agences will sell them any amount of material. As mentioned, above, and in other threads on this subject, the main thrusts for the vitrole comes from two "Folk personalaties", who's empire building egoes were dented when encountering Mr Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:08 PM

Bulmer doesn't pay royalties, because he isn't required by law to pay them. When you buy the rights to the music, that means the rights to the royalties.

The demonization of Bulmer is done by people who believe he should, out of the kindness of his heart, pay the royalties to musicians who signed the rights to their music away decades ago, so no longer have a right to be paid royalties.

If a legal case against him could be won, we'd have seen it done by now. It can't, so people whinge about what a bastard he is.

And BTW, I'm not suggesting he isn't a bastard. I'm just saying the whole demonization of Bulmer has been a tempest in a teapot by musicians who weren't savvy enough to hand onto the rights to their music. Which includes a large segment of the folk scene in Britain. Including some who were even warned off Bulmer in advance, but signed it all over to him anyway.

There is no cure for stupidity, as they say.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Mar 05 - 02:39 PM

Let's keep something straight-- Royalties are due only when a CD is sold . If one wishes to castigate Mr. Bulmer for not having sold the CDs, that's ones's right...but then don't bitch about royalties not being paid. And now that Celtic Music has released some of the long-awaited titles, a boycott is the sure way to make sure that royalties won't be paid.

I'd strongly suggest that artists signing a contract with any publisher insist on a clause that states that if publication stops for a period of X (pick your own X) years, rights revert to the artist.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 05 - 12:13 PM

Don't go confusing the issue with facts there, Dick. You'll take the winds out of the "let's whinge on forever about Bulmer" contingent. Then the only thing they'd have to whinge on forever about is Mike Harding.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,TS in US
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 12:17 AM

hi,

    I'm in the U.S. and a folk fan, sign me up for a commando raid on Bulmer's archives!! What an unjust guy. How does he sleep at night?

         TS


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: English Jon
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:58 AM

I have no idea about the right or wrong of any of Mr Bulmers actions,
but he is on the MU blacklist.

Cheers,
J


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 01:04 PM

The issue of the ability of a liquidator or trustee in bankruptcy to sell rights free from the obligation to pay the royalties originally contractually provided for has been a bone of contention since the Bankruptcy Act 1907 (and must have been so before in order to have been legislated for in that Act).


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Ralphie
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:44 PM

And it all goes round again


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:32 AM

Does this mean that I can legally set up a company, sign up artistes with promises of huge income, record their material, go bankrupt, buy the rights back and then issue the recordings without having to pay any royalties?

Looks like a business opportunity.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:41 PM

Pavanne-
Yes you can--as long as you can find arists that are hungry enough/eager enough/dumb enough to sign such a contract. The 60's were full of such artists.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM

I missed the BBC prog the other night on the way the Bay City Rollers got ripped off. Did anyone record it?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Brenda
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 07:31 PM

Dick Greenhaus wrote: "as long as you can find arists that are hungry enough/eager enough/dumb enough to sign such a contract. The 60's were full of such artists."

And so were the '60s, probably. Remind me, how does an artist get to be hungry? And tell me about your own waistline . . .


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:00 AM

Pavane - of course you can (that is if you are Bulmer with the bent one at your side to draw up ambiguous and verbose contracts). After all Celtic and its derivatives have made it an art form.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:42 AM

Pavane,

Is that what happened? If so, who promised the artists this huge income? Was it the person with whom they originally signed their contracts - before their original labels went bust and Bulmer bought the rights?

At least the tapes still exist and didn't end up in a skip somewhere. As long as that is the case there is always a chance of a fair settlement - though I don't think the hate campaign against Bulmer makes that any more likely. If I was Bulmer I'd probably just say 'Sod it' and bin the lot.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Dita
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM

My understanding from Dick Gaughan, who started to remaster some of the Leader/Trailer tapes when he still had a relationship with DB, was that many of the tapes had deteriorated to such an extent, that remastering from a mint record was a better option.

John

PS However, it strikes me that the first four posts were simply a request for info , which was supplied, until DB appologist, "Guest Chris B" turned it into Celtic Music 7.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 03:46 PM

Dita,

Don't give me that. You know perfectly well that no-one starts a thread about Bulmer on this forum without having an agenda.

I'm not apologising for anyone and I'm not apologising to anyone - least of all you.

Bulmer may indeed be a crook - but I don't see any reason to take your word for it.

If Dick wants to re-master from mint records tell him I've got a couple. If the legal side gets sorted he's very welcome to drop by. You aren't.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Apr 05 - 05:06 PM

Would you take Dick Gaughan's word for it? (See archives, uk.music.folk).


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 08:44 AM

Probably not


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: *Laura*
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 05:52 PM

How many times have we done this now!?!?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 08:45 AM

Laura,

Too bloody many.

'Guest', how do you know whose word I would or wouldn't take? As it happens, I would take Dick's word about almost anything as I know him to be a person of the highest integrity. However, the link that has been quoted leads to a post in which he takes care to factually record an issue on which he strenuously disagrees with a decision of Bulmer's - and on the information available I agree with Dick on this one. What he doesn't do is use the internet as a kangaroo court or resort to snide, cowardly personal attacks. He's more of a man than that.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 05 - 09:01 AM

Mr. Gaughan is also a man with an anti-Bulmer agenda though, and therein lies the rub.

I seem to recall him once saying that Bulmer's tapes constituted a "national treasure".

I remain unconvinced everyone should place quite that high a value on Bulmer's collection.

While Mr. Gaughan is a fine musician and by all accounts a decent enough lad, he done his share to contribute to the fracas and fuel the hyperbolic chamber on this one, mate.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Betsy
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 04:56 AM

To Joe Offer.........

Hiya Joe ,
Who's the Guest defending Bulmer ? I thought we were going to stop the anonymity - especially with an emotive subject like this. How do we know Guest isn't Bulmer or someone close to him.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:13 AM

The guest defending Bulmer posted in April, 2005. Our policy prohibiting anonymous posting began a few months ago, in 2007. It would be unfair to delete anonymous messages posted before the policy was instituted.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Betsy
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 10:00 AM

I was going to send you a PM but I'll do it publicly .
Many apologies Joe - Silly Me !!!!!! I hadn't noticed the dates.I hope you can picture me biting my fist as I'm typing this .
Cheers
Betsy


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Ruaridh.G.
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:15 PM

If this subject moves into the philosophical territory of altruism and motivation for one's actions, then that's one thing. On the other hand anyone who would question Dick Gaughan's integrity is obviously so far removed from reality that they disqualify themselves from being taken seriously.

Listen to what Gaughan has to say on the subject - he is not a liar.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:54 PM

Dick Gaughan, has always struck me as somebody who has integrity.
Malcolm Douglas,what is the relevance of the archives you mention.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 03:11 PM

They contain (or did when I posted to this thread two years ago) a number of discussions on the whole Bulmer question, including relevant and accurate information from Dick Gaughan.

The archive is now administered by Google, and can be searched at  http://groups.google.com/group/uk.music.folk/topics.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 10:48 AM

Happy New Year to everyone posting to the various Bulmer threads. Yet another year has gone by - and we enter another - what will our super business man and his bag carrier be doing this year? Perhaps this could be the year when the two of them finally come face to face with justice. Pipe dream?? Who knows, but I live in hope.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Seamus
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:02 PM

Well I happen to have known Dick Gaughan and dave bulmer and
all I can say is this    "tis a great insult to Dick to have his name, and Dave bulmer's, mentioned in the very same breath.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Feb 08 - 04:22 PM

Andy.
Yep, another year passes.
Nothing changes.
Nothing is forgotten
Regards
Ralpie


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Andy, Port Erin, I-O-M
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 03:40 AM

Hi Ralphie, keep the faith!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 06:26 AM

How about another angle?

When we record a CD ourselves, we have to pay the MCPS who administer royalties in respect of the copyrights on the music, lyrics and arrangements.

We then place MPCS on the insert to certify that this has been done.
For small-scale recordings, they take our word on how many have been produced, and charge us accordingly at a scale rate.

The pressing companies for proper CDs make returns (to MCPS?) on how many copies they have pressed, so you can't avoid them knowing. It is possible to avoid this by burning CDR's and just not telling them, but this is defrauding the copyright holders.

Copyrights like this obviously CANNOT be avoided by bankrupcy, as the composer of a tune may have no contract with the recording company. Whoever issues the recording is liable for the royalties.

(Logically, therefore, I suppose that copyright on songs and tunes written by the performers, and also their arrangements, should remain with the artists, not with the recording company - is that right? Remembering that Nic Jones wrote some of his tunes,, and arranged almost all of them. Legal advice required here)

Therefore, if one finds CDR (or CD) on sale with (just one) copyright SONG or TUNE and no MCPS logo, there is a legal problem, which MCPS would probably want to investigate. And copyright is claimed on a surprising number of 'traditional' songs and tunes. (Wild Mountain Thyme, for one well known example).

If the CDR DOES have an MPCS logo, then the MCPS would presumably know how many were declared. And the royalties are paid at this point, NOT when the disk is retailed.

We know there are CDR's out there, does anyone have details of any such recordings which may contain copyright songs or tunes?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 09:57 AM

MMMMM I wonder if the point made by Pavanne above is in any way relevent to my recent experience of buying a CD copy of Bright Phoebus from Music By Mail via Amazon. When I received the CD it would not play on either of my CD players though it did play on my computer. I phoned Music By Mail and they said it must be a dud and dispatched another immediately which behaved in the same way. I phoned again and asked if it were a CDr since neither the CD or the packaging indicated that. The chap was vague in reply but said he thought they might have some of the originals somewhere. When the next CD arrived the typeface used to print the CD surface details was different and had LEADER printed in blue instead of black. It plays without difficulty on all my CD players.The service from Music by Mail was excellent but I refrained from giving any Amazon feedback because, having read some of the threads about Celtic Music on Mudcat, I felt that something not quite above board was going on.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 10:06 AM

I suppose all you peeps are aware that Music By Mail is Celtic Music by another name, operating out of the very same address in Harrogate. The BBC Folk & Acoustic site, despite innumerable requests for them to desist, continue to display an ad for this extremely dubious mail order business. Smooth Operations (the outsourced production company which runs the site) whimpers the excuse that "Bulmer is doing nothing illegal" (ha) and they wouldn't want to be accused of acting "unfairly" against his business.

Draw your own conclusions.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 10:34 AM

So do these CR(R)'s have the MCPS logo?

If they don't need it, then they don't need to be CDR's! If they don't have it, then they had better not contain any copyrighted arrangements.

Avoiding paying royalites may only be a civil matter, but I am sure that if MPCS thought they were being deprived of substantial sums, they might take action. If they find just ONE CDR, they might well ask how many more might have been sold...

(And remember - what they got Al Capone for was tax evasion)


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 11:06 AM

Dave Bulmer's not doing anything illegal, as such, immoral yes, illegal, no. Unfortunately that's the way things stand at the moment, unless people want to stand up and be counted and fight for a change in the laws.

Charlotte (keeping a strict eye)


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 11:17 AM

Maybe not criminally illegal, but failing to pay royalties when due is still illegal, just a civil offence. It usually takes deep pockets to take legal action, but it CAN be taken.

But first you have to find an example, which is what I was suggesting.

Not that I am not talking about the ownership of copyright of the sound recording, but of the copyright of third parties which might have been infringed.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GeoffLawes
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 11:18 AM

What does the MCPS logo look like? I can't see anything looking like such a logo on either version of the CDs. Both versions carry the same statement about ALL RIGHTS being reserved etc.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM

Could be a rectangle with the letters MCPS inside.

Next step, is there anything on it which is likely to have a 3rd party copyright?

However, one would also have to ascertain whether royalties were paid directly to the copyright holders, which might happen (what do you think, though?)

According to the web, these are the tracks album with the composers:

Rubber Band ... Mike Waterson (2:55)
Scarecrow ... Lal Waterson (3:48)
Fine Horseman ... Lal Waterson (3:24)
Winifer Odd ... Lal Waterson (2:47)
Danny Rose ... Lal Waterson (2:40)
Child Among the Weeds ... Lal Waterson, Chris Collins (3:40)
Magical Man ... (none) (2:44)
Never the Same ... Lal Waterson (2:54)
To Make You Stay ... Lal Waterson (2:11)
Shady Lady ... Lal Waterson (3:17)
Red Wine and Promises ... Lal Waterson (3:02)
Bright Phoebus ... Mike Waterson

Even if the Watersons had signed their rights to the record label, I don't know if that would have included composers rights.
And what about Chris Collins?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 08 Feb 08 - 02:04 PM

I dunno about the UK, but here in the States CD-Rs are the only way to go if you wish to produce CDs with limited sales potential. It's senseless to pay for 1000 pressed CDs when your expectations od sales top out at maybe 50 per annum.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 03:00 AM

I have checked a number of CD's which I have to hand (But no inserts)
Several, but not all, have MCPS on the CD itself, including Steeleye Span (Spanning the years) and Boys of the Lough (West of Ireland)

But the font and style vary, and I think the letters MCPS are sufficient. Of course, that is only for the UK; I think there are equivalents in other countries.

I take Dick's point about CD-R, but it should still have the MCPS if they have been paid. As I said above, we use CDR ourselves, and put MCPS on the insert. And I am sure that some of the Bulmerised albums would have substantial sales, because they include many of the best folk albums from the UK revival (see full list in a different thread).

Bright Phoebus was perhaps not a good example, because there might have been no third-party rights.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 10:58 AM

Send to Dave Bulmer, c/o of Satan, Hades, Hell, SE1


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 11:07 AM

"Send to Dave Bulmer, c/o of Satan, Hades, Hell, SE1"

this is exremely unhelpful in what is a very important area of music rights and ownership.

Charlotte (n0n-legal beagle)


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: pavane
Date: 11 Feb 08 - 12:21 PM

The essence is that reissues on CDR (if without MCPS registration) might infringe third party rights, in which case MCPS might take an interest.

Two MIGHTs but worth a try, to get the big guns into the battle.

Think how difficult it is for anyone to determine whether their 'folk' songs and their tunes are really in the public domain.
(Or whether the McPeakes have copyrighted them)


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,michael jacksy
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 06:23 AM

whats the latest state of play in this saga?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Raphie
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 11:24 AM

Situation unchanged as far as I know. Intransigence continues at it's usual snails pace.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Michael jacksy
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 02:10 PM

Shame.

At least I have a first pressing of Bright Phoebus from 1972 so I can enjoy that music on vinyl.

Nic Jones in particular deserves better but we all know that anyway.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Jan 12 - 02:51 AM

Hello Michael.
Maybe the fact that Nic has performed twice Live in the last two Years. (Sidmouth 2010 and the QEH London, both sell out gigs) and is planning to appear at a few UK festivals in 2012, will make the owner of Celtic Music do the right thing by the family.
All too late for Mike and Lal Waterson, and Tony Rose.
I'm not holding my breath, I must admit.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Tom Millett (Sydney)
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 12:05 AM

The Celts came to Ireland about 500BC. There were other peoples in Ireland since about 8000BC
To my knowledge the Celts were never acknowledged for their Music, Just their ability to cause mayhem.
The Irish language and Irish culture are just that 'IRISH'.
So lets Dump this Celtic S***e and let the Irish have the credit they deserve, for good or for bad - They can shoulder it!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Ian Croft
Date: 26 Feb 12 - 07:40 AM

It is perhaps too much to hope that Bill Leader's appearance at the BBC Folk Awards might have tweaked a nerve in Harrogate, but fingers crossed.
Incidentally, I noticed that Topic has released some old albums as download only. This surely ought to be the way forward for Mr. B


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 13 May 12 - 09:26 AM

"This surely ought to be the way forward for Mr. B" - if said master tapes are still viable - which is a very moot point.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 May 12 - 06:40 AM

Great stuff can be done with pristine vinyl copies. Anyone who possesses such things should have 'em locked in a bank vault somewhere for the time being! Well, at least don't let the mice chew 'em.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 15 May 12 - 03:21 AM

Ooer - I have lots of pristine folk albums from Leader, Sweat Folk All, Topic, Transatlantic, etc., including a mint copy of the Copper Family set 'A Song for Very Season' (our family came from Rottingdean).

When I was in NZ in the 1970s - in Hawera, Taranaki - I was so isolated from any form of folk music, indeed from any form of culture other than boozing at the 'three pub corner' in the High Street - that I got my parents to ship out loads of folk lps by surface mail at great expense I might add. None of these were imported into NZ by distributors.

But then I had difficulty obtaining decent record playing equipment - import restrictions on such luxury items, incl. and cassette tape players and even reel-reel tape players were draconian.

When I moved to Auckland and whilst the folk scene was still pretty sparse, e.g. no folk dancing whatsoever, certainly no morris etc., and a few folk song clubs (3), there was one second hand record shop that used to have a few folk lps - which I visited and snapped up every week.

Then a major importer of records - Pye I think - went bust. Suddenly said record shop had quantities of Brit. folk lps for sale at very silly low prices. That's where all the Brit Folk lps had been stored - in a warehouse in Auckland - undistributed for 'lack of demand.' So my collection increased dramatically.

But now - 40 years later - I lack the equipment to play records, and the said lps are languishing on bookshelves some still sealed. Probably like the master tapes DB has. But at least my records are still playable, whereas his tapes are probably not.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Fossil
Date: 15 May 12 - 04:27 AM

Can anyone in the "cat follow up CJB's post? Those precious bit of vinyl need cataloging, re-recording onto digital and preserving in the cloud to prevent the likes of Mr Bulmer from going to his grave thinking that he's won over the true folkies.

I don't want to breach anyone's copyright and would happily pay to listen to any of the material. Even DB, if I have to.

But that stuff needs seeing to. Soon, by the sound of it...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 15 May 12 - 09:08 AM

Best dealt with by confidential PM, I'd have thought, Fossil.
RtS


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Fossil
Date: 16 May 12 - 05:47 AM

I'd PM anyone I thought had the abilities. I certainly don't have the equipment and if CJ is back in the UK, I'm half a world away from him and his stash anyway. If it's NZ, I'll see what I could do.

Surely some UK 'catter - I know there are many who would do it just for the principle of the thing - could step up?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: ChrisJBrady
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:19 AM

If I peg it one day - or rather as a clog dancer - if I pop my clogs - I need to be able to ensure the right people get this pristine collection. Who would or could that be? I thought of EFDSS at C#H but then I thought why? I thought of sending the lot down to Auckland where a certain folk club has a vast archive of such recordings - tape and vinyl. But then they never bother to keep in touch - so again I thought why? My aim in all I do is getting stuff into the public domain bearing in mind that the original artists of official recordings do need a pay back if items are duplicated and sold (the latter which I have no intention of doing BTW) except perhaps to piss off a certain DB.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 12 - 08:57 AM

Leave 'em sealed up and store in equable conditions. You never know when some loophole will be found, and there will always be cracking good playing decks in existence somewhere. Even if the original tapes are lost, you know that the material is not lost. Miracles have been worked with records much older than yours. You are a very important person! Beware of sending 'em to some large organisation where their value may not be appreciated. No centralisation. The best form of defence is a gun on every rooftop... ;-)


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:29 AM

No need reminding that digitising vinyl is not the sort of job best left to a mate
who boasts he's got a decent turntable and reckons he's a bit of an expert on hi fi ???

The Bulmer factory pressed CD of "Bright Phoebus" that he was selling at high price on Amazon
was plagued with vocal distortion.
Indicating that if it was a vinyl rip, the original pressing was knackered
and / or he just quickly copied it off on his cheap home stereo music centre.

Here is an example of what genuine expert vinyl rippers would consider minimum standard equipment and procedure
to capture a real state of the art digital trasfer:

Names withheld for errmm.. reasons...

1 - "Vinyl ripping notes:
Equipment:
VPI HW-17F Vacuum Record Cleaner
Technics SL-1210 T/T, Custom power supply,
Rega RB 300 Tonearm,
Denon DL304 M/C Cartridge
NAD 3130 M/C Stage
M-Audio Profire 610 A/D
Adobe audition 3.0

Method:
Clean records, rip (PCM@96/32), remove subsonic (-18Hz)
Manual and carefully targeted automatic de-clicking in software. I make sure this doesn't damage natural clicks.
Occasional use of noise masking techniques such as fading sampled groove noise to mono during track changes, etc.
Normalize whole sides to 100%, Split tracks
FLAC, MD5, M3U, Discogs Tagging, DR, RAR, +Redbook (16-bit dithered in Audition), FTP

This LP's school report:
A++ with gold stars. If only all vinyl was made this way. 180 gram, clean as a whistle, flat as a pancake, on-centre, nearly perfect except for very, very stray little clicks. Hardly had to do a thing. Nice. Mastered with great skill by Doug Sax at TML (The Mastering Lab) and all stamps bear the TML-M mark."




2 - "Vinyl Ripping Process/Equipment

VPI 16.5 RCM
Turntable: VPI Scoutmaster
Tonearm: Trans-Fi Termninator
Cartridge: Audio-Technica AT33PTG loaded at 80 ohms
Phono Stage: Musical Surroundings Phonomena
Digital Interface: E-MU 1212
Recording Software: Adobe Audition 3.01
Recording Bitrate/Sample Rate: 192/24

Post Processing
Run thru ClickRepair at level 10 with
Pitch Protection | off
Reverse | on
Simple
Resample to 96khz in Izotope Rx2 using the default preset
Manually listen to album in Adobe Audition cleaning any clicks/anomalies
Flac with Xrecode II


What Exactly Is An "Ultimate Master"

It is more or less a catchphrase originally used to designate something was a hi-res rip. But since there seems to be a lot "similarly" named rips now I guess I should explain.

I try to present the "ultimate mastering" of a particular LP, the "mastering" is not my equipment or process but the source material, it has always been about finding the best source. Now my opinion of the best source is subject to change as I experience more variations. Whether or not folks think my rip is "definitive" is irrelevant to me, I just try to find the best pressing and don't mind doing the extra clean up that comes with not just ripping new reissues or japanese issues. I understand the appeal of these pressings but I don't subscribe to the notion that they represent the best source 95% of the time."


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 May 12 - 10:46 AM

and while I'm waiting for kettle to boil..

3 - "Technical Log

Hannl "limited" Record Cleaning Machine with Rotating Brush
TT: Bergmann Audio "Magne" (with air-bearing platter)
Tonearm: Bergmann Magne (tangential/linear air-bearing tonearm)
Cartridge: Ortofon MC A 90
Phono Amp: Nagra BPS (battery driven pre amp; 100 Ohm load)
Interconnects by Silent Wire (NF-7)
Benchmark ADC 1 USB
Interconnects by ViaBlue
AC connects by Goldkabel
Wavelab 6.1 recording software (recording & manual click removal)
iZotope RX Advanced 2.0 (resampling & audio restoration)
Traders Little Helper (SBE fix on 16/44.1)


Vacuum Cleaning > Bergmann Magne > Nagra BPS > Laptop > Wavelab 6.1 (24/96) > manual click removal
analyze (no clipping, no DC Bias offset) > resample to 16/44.1 > split into individual Tracks > FLAC encoded (Vers. 1.21)

No silence been removed, please burn gapless to match original tracklayout."



4 - "Technicals
Knosti RCM.
Pink Triangle LPT with
Funk Firm Achromat.
Moth Arm 1 (Rega RB 250).
Audio Technica AT33PTG MC Cart.
Harman Kardon HK990 Integrated Amp.
Gold Interconnects. Creative S80300 External ADC.
Creative WaveStudio 7 Recording Software.
Split and manual de-click with Adobie Audition 3.0.1
Click Repair 3.7"


and these are most respected vinyl ripping experts with some of the least extensive & expensive digi transfer gear setups...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 12 - 01:32 PM

Thanks for that. That's what I was implying when I said that miracles can be worked, etc. I wasn't suggesting doing it with my Bush music centre!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Fossil
Date: 17 May 12 - 05:23 AM

Well, that was my point - clearly this isn't a task for the amateur.

PFRocker, how's about kicking some of your expert mates into action?

Where's everybody in the world? Physical location is the thing. Wouldn't it be great if PFR's mate lived just down the road? And could deal with the whole goddam lot in 20 minutes before getting back to sampling Snoop Doggy Dog in 3D Technicolor so that the folkies could hang one on Dave Bastard Bulmer...

CJB, I envy you. Never let those recordings out of your posession, store them like the Crown Jewels they are. And fer the luv of Gawd, don't send them to Auckland!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: treewind
Date: 17 May 12 - 05:42 AM

For recordings in which Dave Bulmer (or his company, Celtic Music) holds the rights, the problem of re-releasing by anyone else is not a technical one but a legal one.
Just sayin', before we all get too carried away with the technicalities...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 17 May 12 - 06:16 AM

That was my point, Treewind. Mr B is reputed to be litigious.

RtS


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 03:27 PM

Looks like Dave Bulmer (Celtic Music) may be attempting to cash in his stocks:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-BRIGHT-PHOEBUS-LAL-MIKE-WATERSON-VINTAGE-FOLK-RARE-/130719335656?pt=UK_Records&hash=item1e6f7ac4e8

Several other interesting folk albums there, perhaps half of the 205 albums listed are from the folk field as it was in the seventies/eighties.

yourpricemusic (eBay seller) trading as Celtic Visions,
address given as
North Works
Hookstone Park
Harrogate
North Yorkshire
HG2 7DB
United Kingdom

Ross


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Surreysinger
Date: 28 Jun 12 - 08:35 PM

Those have been up on sale on EBay for some time now Ross, and were the subject of heated conversation when first spotted. And if anyone was thinking of "doing" anything regarding digitisation of LP recordings I would advocate heeding Anahata's advice.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 04 Jul 12 - 06:58 PM

More from the vaults:-

BLUE MOUNTAIN FIELD TRIP LP LEADER SOUND NM/NM 0 bids        £9.99        +£4.00         Time left: 3d 19h 56m         
CECILIA COSTELLO LEADER GRAYSLEEVE LP FOLK VINYL RARE 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         
COME DAY, GO DAY... LEADER GRAY SLEEVE JHON MAGUIRE LP 0 bids        £24.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         
FAR CANADIAN FEILDS LEADER GRAYSLEEVE LP FOLK NEW FOWKE 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         
TONY ROSE UNDER THE GREENWOOD TREE LEADER FOLK VINYL 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         
A PEOPLE'S CAROL LEADER GRAYSLEEEVE FOLK LP YORKSHIRE 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         
WADE IN THE FLOOD ANDREW CRONSHAW LEADER VINYL VINTAGE 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         

Ross
PISCES LEADER FOLK VINYL LP GREENWOOD DIGANCE O'CONNOR 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         
THE RAKES VINYL VINTAGE FOLK BILL LEADER IRISH FIDDLE 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         
FLUTE FOR THE FEIS JOHN DOONAN LEADER LP VINTAGE FOLK 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m         
THE BOYS OF THE LOUGH SECOND ALBUM LEADER VINYL LP FOLK 0 bids        £29.99        +£3.50         Time left: 3d 20h 22m


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Jasper
Date: 15 Jul 12 - 07:24 PM

David Robert Bulmer

Checkout following DirectorCheck Web Address -

http://company-director-check.co.uk/director/904217133

List of Companies / addresses / Assets etc


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,CJB
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 04:44 AM

I see that many of the albums are now on YouTube - not from me IHTA. Hope DB is rolling in his grave.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 06:44 PM

So now that the albums are on Ubend those nice people from Sony will claim copyright and prove who the real bastards are.

Despite his insistance on dealing with his openly purchased material in his own way Dave did more for traditional music in the UK than a lot of his detractors,

It has been pointed out more than once on this platform that the material is there to be purchased - so why the whinges - unless it is because the whingers would much prefer to have it free.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 08:35 PM

Yeah, right, anonymous Guest-guest-coward, no doubt the late Dave's uncle. Nobody here wants anything for free. What we want is amazing music released in the best quality, at almost any price, with fair royalties paid to the artists. Now stop arseing around and tell us all what bits of that you don't understand.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Mar 18 - 08:48 PM

As I'm one of mudcat's more youthful members - a mere 59 - I was too young to hear much of the missing Bulmer LPs
at time of initial release [ or subsequently for obvious reasons...]

So for us youngsters, something like youtube is a justifiable medium to at least have a chance of hearing some of them
to find out what we were missing.

I'd tactfully suggest a discrete list of recommended ones to search for on youtube might be a useful asset

It's a very long time since a local library held a magnificent collection of folk LPs to borrow.

[as did my town library when I was a teenager - mostly Topic LPS - they must have got a bulk deal...???]

Mind you, it's getting rarere to find a local library still open.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 03:56 AM

"Despite his insistance on dealing with his openly purchased material in his own way Dave did more for traditional music in the UK than a lot of his detractors"
like suppressing and hoarding recordings for years so artists material could not be heard, made Kennedylook like a saint


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 08:51 AM

'punkfolkrocker' - I'm lucky here in Miltown Malbay, Co. Clare, the local library has an extensive folk collection, probably due to its strong connection with the piper Willie Clancy & the annual music summer school named after him. Surely, if it's possible in a small town of 800 population, then it should be anywhere?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer - Address
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 18 - 01:21 PM

Dave, lost his way in pursuit of money and ended up with a bad rep, her suppressed loads of recordings thus doing himself and lots of others a lot of damage.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 07:26 PM

Touched Steve Shaw's awkward bone again.

Dave suppressed nothing - just insisted in dealing with the material which he had paid for being available at normal markups.

That's what being in business is about.

When was the last time you queried the price a supermarket was charging?

Next have just under acheived by only making £725 MILLION POUNDS - down on last year. Their share price immediately went up by about 8%.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 08:44 PM

Take a bloody hike why don't you, troll.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 18 - 11:16 PM

"Dave suppressed nothing - just insisted in dealing with the material which he had paid for being available at normal markups."

How can a music fan & potential customer buy something if they never knew it existed;
or maybe might have seen an obscure list of reputedly worthy deleted LPs from decades ago,
but had no reasonable way of hearing any of them
in order to decide on purchase...????????????

There are plenty of 1960s and 70s rock bands that sold few LPs first time around
that have enjoyed reappraisal in the music magazines leading to succesful high quality remastered LTD Edition CD release...

Even Wombles complete recordings have been reissued on CDs over the last 40 years...!!!!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 06:41 PM

I don't know how old you are PFR but yes the bulk of the stuff Dave bought the ownership and copyright for was "reputedly worthy deleted LPs". I think most people who had a serious interest in folk music at the time the material was produced were more than likely aware it was there - in a lot of cases they would not have the sort of disposable income the current generation enjoys. There was at the time a fair chance a lot of the stuff would have ended up in a skip!

So maybe Dave didn't live long enough!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 18 - 07:03 PM

Dave suppressed many recordings including one that i was involved in he was pain in the arse


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 27 Mar 18 - 03:16 PM

Why Dick would a man who, according to your previous posting on this thread, was only interested in money, refuse to sell something?

And what do you mean by suppress?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 10:00 AM

I'm just a punter, happy to add purchased CDs to my collection...

Trying to momentarily set aside the bitter disputes, and anger at Bulmer from within the older folk artists community...

As a music fan and buyer, my frank appraisal of this Bulmer saga
is that the man was probably more in tune with slowly selling pre-existing remaindered LPs
accumulated in boxes in his warehouse.
But not adept at conserving or appreciating the commercial and/or artistic value of master tapes.

More to the point, he seemed to have little real understanding of how to effectively
promote, market, and profit from the greater and lesser treasures hidden in his vast hoard...

The modern world of cost effective high quality niche CD releases, music downloads, and streaming
seems to have been beyond his limited understanding and vision...???????


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 18 - 11:13 AM

no idea , but because i do not understand his behaviour, does not make his behaviour acceptable he was imo a greedy pain in the arse , fact is he suppressed other peoples recordings


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 05:27 AM

It is very difficult to fathom Bulmer's motives. We should be thankful that someone stepped in to the assets when Leader went bust, or they might have ended up in a skip. Were his motives to preserve a catalogue which included some important recordings, or purely financial?

The assets were at least preserved, in the sense that they were not lost or destroyed. However if they are not made widely accessible then what is the point?

He presumably paid something for the assets when Leader went bust, but he seems to have had little idea how to recoup his investment. Yes, he would sell CD-Rs on demand, but he did little or nothing to advertise this. Despite what Guest troll claims, many people who had a serious interest in folk music at the time would not have known what had happened to it, or how to get in touch with him. Remember, this was long before the internet, when the folk scene was much more localised than it is now.

There would have been considerable demand for at least some of the catalogue (admittedly not all). If Bulmer didn't want to publish them himself I find it hard to believe that one of the established labels (or the individual artists) would not have been willing to do so. The only conclusions I can come to are that either he asked too much for the recordings or was not willing to let them be published. Recently of course the cost of making CDs has come down considerably, and music can be released digitally for very little cost.

Whether or not it was his deliberate intention, the actual result was that a large body of recordings were in effect suppressed, in that they were not available to the majority of people who might wish to listen to them. This was not a good thing for the folk world, or for the artists whose works he controlled.

Neither does it seem to have been good for Bulmer. He could probably have made much more money from the recordings than he did. By handling things the way he did he destroyed his own reputation. What was it all for? I wonder whether he had some grudge against the folk world and this was some form of revenge, but if that were the case he would probably have refused to make any copies available at all. We'll probably never know.

The big question is what will now happen to them? I hope his executors appreciate both the commercial and artistic value of his catalogue and will now make it more widely avaiable. Ideally these should all now be released. The most iconic recordings (the Nic Jones stuff for example) could probably be profitably released on CD, the less commercially marketable ones could be very cheaply released online.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 12:35 PM

The only conclusions I can come to are that either he asked too much for the recordings or was not willing to let them be published."
in the case of The New Mexboroughs, I approached him he would not sell, and did not publish, these are facts ,not the spouting of some anonymous uninformed guest.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 30 Mar 18 - 12:58 PM

Just been listening to a double CD, "The 3rd Irish Folk Festival In Concert". Wonderful music from Seamus Creagh and Jacky Daly, Treasa ni Mhiollain, "Clannad" and "De Dannan" with Andy Irvine. Released on CD by "Celtic Music" in 1988. Thanks, Dave [ RIP ].


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: Howard Jones
Date: 31 Mar 18 - 01:58 AM

Kenny, it is acknowledged that he issued a small number of recordings, but these were not very widely available, and seem often to have been CD-Rs run off as single orders. The criticism of him is that he sat on a large catalogue of recordings which he would not make widely available, depriving us of some wonderful music and the artists of income.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: FScott
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:10 PM

I used to deal with Bulmer as a U.S. retailer and have to tell you it was a nightmare. I would place orders that I wouldn't receive and would get no replies to my letters and faxes. I would place orders and receive a shipment but with no invoice. My request for an invoice would go unanswered and then I'd receive an invoice six months later. I visited him several times and he would let me pick out LPs that I wanted shipped to the USA but never received them. He invited me to stay at his house once and I ended up sleeping in a bed that had probably been slept in by a dozen or more people before me with no attempt to wash the sheets after any of the visits.
I do believe that he did some good for the British Isles folk scene but it was outweighed by the harm. Ask Dick Gaughan about his experiences with Bulmer when he recorded the Run Rig album or the many Leader/ Trailer artists who begged Bulmer to make their material available. Bob Fox and Stu Luckley re-recorded most of their two Black Crow albums for Fellside with almost the same arrangements because they couldn't get Bulmer to make their albums available.
With all due respect to the Bulmer defender I think that Dave Bulmer had some level of sociopathy going on. I'm pretty sure that it wasn't about making money.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: FScott
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 04:27 PM

In my last note I mentioned Dick Gaughan and Run Rig - I really meant to say Clan Alba.
As many of you know Dick has been very sick the past year and rerelease of his Trailer albums would be most welcome as it would be helpful towards his medical expenses.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: GUEST,Guest (non defender)
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:04 PM

Re the last posting.

It is unfortunate that Dick is ill. I do not know what he is suffering from.

The correspondent is obviously living in the land of the free!!!! where ill health can be expensive.

Such generally is not the case in the UK and unless Dick has opted for private treatment any medical expenses would be covered by the NHS.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: Jeri
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:28 PM

Dick had a stroke. There was a crowd-funding thing to raise money to help him with rehab. In Scotland.
I haven't the slightest idea how he's doing now.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 06:31 PM

Dick Gaughan is self employed. Yes, he will have no medical expenses in the UK but he is unable to continue earning a living at the moment. If he has produced recorded work he should be allowed to sell it, particularly at this time. This is notwithstanding the countless hours he has given towards benefit gigs and support for others who were in need.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 18 - 07:08 PM

It's tempting even after all these years to point to individuals such as Dick and Nic Jones who've encountered tough times, but let's not lose sight of the general principle we're arguing for that the music that people have made, ultimately, morally, belongs to them. Not saying that agents, producers, record companies and the rest shouldn't make a living, but the principle holds. I doubt whether either Dick or Nic would do anything other than roll their eyes to heaven if they sensed they were being used as bargaining chips to raise the emotional stakes in this argument. I know we've all done it ad nauseam in the past but I think we should keep it general if we want to work towards a good outcome. The chances of anyone with real influence reading this are slim, but, just in case, it's as well to remember that the guy we blame is dead but there are people who were around him that just might have better natures that we can appeal to. Anyway, I'd pay fifteen quid for an expertly-mastered and produced CD package of The Noah's Ark Trap and I guarantee that there are thousands like me!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 05:55 AM

there is also Rosemary Hardman, who i believe is also not well


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:00 AM

I am just wondering what the executors are playing at now.

Are they unaware that they have been sitting on a chunk of intellectual property of, admittedly, moderate value? Or has the IP been assigned to an heir who is similarly unaware? Has the estate been wound up or is this ongoing?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer (discussion)
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 18 - 10:04 AM

Shame, it appears there are no official cultural heritage bodies that can be called upon to tactfully intervene...???


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