BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:58 PM

"any real heterosexuals among you were given the choice of being raped by a woman or a man"

Oh fuck off! You have absolutely no clue about anything you pontificate on. Women are just as nasty and sadistic as men, they don't have cocks but they certainly have imaginations, as may be witnessed by all kinds of tabloid reported events.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:44 PM

Paco has a point, if any real heterosexuals among you were given the choice of being raped by a woman or a man....which would you chose, and which would fill you with horror!

Bill ..A nice post, wish I had time to discuss it at length with you.
I will tell you that I am involved with a group which provides information and services to heroin addicts....many are dying from hepc and many die from heroin and methadone overdose most of these lives could be saved if the govt had the will and provided proper funding, but as you probably know, helping addicts is not an electoral plus.

The important thing in dealing with homosexual practice is to stop the deaths and to do that a far ranging study into the negative medical aspects of homosexuality requires to be undertaken.

It may well be that some here will not like the recommendations of such a study...but who gives a fuck what the sort of numbskulls who have posted since my last message think, as long as thousands of lives can be saved.

PS I don't catagorise your good self,Smedley,Mr Obarma or Chongo, as numbskulls...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:56 PM

I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals.

This is obviously not the case everywhere, in Ireland for example the fastest growing group of HIV infected are heterosexual, especially women. Intravenous drug user are strong risers too in the newly infected statistics while new infections among the homosexual community have remained stable.

In most of the Western countries the homosexual population was the first into which the virus was introduced. Hence the high infection rate. In Africa the infection started in the hetero sexual part of the population, and there it is still most prominent. Fairly basic stuff really, if you think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:37 PM

"I'm assuming that you will acknowledge that homosexuals are not responsible for children born with HIV/AIDS."

I'm not assuming anything ...

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:18 PM

""I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals. Is that being dogmatic?""

Glory be to the Great Pixie!....Akenaton wants to learn.

OK, well, if you take your statistical sample from the comparatively small enclosed communities in the Western United States, you won't get the same answers as if you ask the same questions on the African continent where it originated, and where they are under the impression that HIV/AIDS is very much a heterosexual thing.

That may have some bearing on the HUGE percentage of children who are victims in Africa.

I'm assuming that you will acknowledge that homosexuals are not responsible for children born with HIV/AIDS.

Also, without wishing to shatter your closed and shuttered illusions, a visit to a local nightclub on a Friday night might give you some surprising (to you) new information about the degree of heterosexual promiscuity which exists out here in the real world.

Scotsmen aren't usually that obtuse, in my experience.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:00 PM

I just don't understand this fixation with other people's sexual proclivities. It seems to me to be unhealthily prurient, intrusive aand voyeuristic. Don't you gay-bashers have sex lives of your own? Presumably not if you're so interested in what other people get up to.

Sad!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:57 PM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people"
I find people who kill animals for pleasure pretty revolting.
A couple of friends not far from here almost throw up at the thought of eating meat.
And don't get me started about eating oysters!!!!
Please explain 'ordinary people'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:44 PM

""Aids is not a fucking joke Don!
It is deadly serious, especially for people who habitually take sexual risks, indulge in anal sex and lead promiscuous lifestyles.""

Nobody is laughing about aids Ake. Not even you are that stupid.

It is good, however, to see that you are at last acknowledging (however accidentally) that it is a disease which attacks people who take sexual risks, indulge in anal sex, and lead promiscuous lives, and not just gay men who do those things.

That, for you, is a major step toward recognition of the realities of life.

Now all we have to do is to get you to acknowledge that your post should read unprotected sex, and you will just about be on the right page.

This is really encouraging.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 01:08 PM

If you bozos had any idea what male Orangutans do when they are alone together, you wouldn't be so het up anymore about what gay men are doin', lemme tell ya!

DISGUSTING!!!!

I always put my gloves on before shakin' an Orangutan's hand. And I get the glove sterilized afterward. If I get in a fight with an Orangutan, I shower for three hours when I get home and I dose up on Vitamin C and hard liquor. You can't be too safe.

- Chongo

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:53 PM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts? "

We surely do acknowledge that many *ordinary* people are SO ordinary that they can't cope with differences! The real problem is with shallow, ignorant and insensitive 'ordinary' people! These are the people who condemn religions other than their own, political parties other than their own, cultures other than their own...etc.

If other people indulge in practices that do not affect ME, it is none of my business what they do. *IF* they try to coerce ME into joining their church, political party or sexual practices, then I will object loudly!

"Go thou, and do likewise."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:27 PM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts? "

I have no idea what they get up to. I am not, nor do I want to be, 'ordinary' (whatever ordinary is). I am just me, with all sorts of interests in life, some of which could potentially shorten my life. I could use a capo in a C&W club and get lynched, for instance, or try and play my guitar without a safety net ;-)

I just drove home from work on a very busy, wet, dark and windy Motorway. Now that concentrates my thinking and warrants concern because it affects me.

TBH I could not give two hoots as to what gay men indulge in (if by practice you mean sex) as I am far more interested in all the other things thay are capable of that could actually increase my pleasures or interests, as with the other sexualities in our midst. I am not interested in what straight couples do in their own privavcy. Nor any combinations inbetween. People's sexual practices (being consensual and adult in nature) has nothing to do with me. I am too busy getting on with my own life and answering posts on Mudcat lol ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: mauvepink
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:56 AM

Don and Little Hawk....

Some people, it would seem, do not sleep easy in their bed if someone is miles away from then sleeping who just happens to be gay! ;-)

Smedley wrote: "The question of why so many gay men choose to put health concerns as a lower priority is the most difficult one to resolve". It is indeed BUT it's not just gay men is it? Straight men have a tendency to neglect their health too. Trying to get a man to go to the Doctor can be a labour of love when he is ill! Men are dying. literally, because they will not have 'normal' health checks, and anything to do with their genitals... forget it! So I actually think that is a male thing and not a gay male thing alone. Men do neglect themselves in my experience.

Each to their own lives taking what chances they take or not. It matters not a jot what sexuality someone is to me. I am always far more interested at what is between a persons ears, and in their hearts, than what is between their legs. Affording everyone the same initial respect - whereby only they themselves can change the meter up or down - generally works. What people do in their own time has nothing to do with me as long as they are not hurting me in its doing. Obviously, some things affect us all in a way that would mean us having to take notice if someone were hurting someone else but, generally, live and let live seems a reasonably good starting point with any encounter.

I still think education is a major leveller for things to do with hate, ignorances, homophobia, etc. Not everyone will stop the hate but many, once aware of true facts, do become more tolerant initially and then actually accepting. Even within the gay communities, and many other minority groups, there is misunderstanding, distrust and confusion.

We can live in hope for greater understanding and knowledge to bring about changed environments where everyone can have respect for each other.

I am a dreamer....

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:52 AM

Most sexual activities, viewed dispassionately, have their absurd and messy aspects — stains on sheets, grunts & groans & gasps & squeaks & squeals, odd jerky bodily movements... But aren't they nice?

Don't really know what of the sort homosexuals actually do because have had no such experiences [tho am working on perhaps acquiring some before I go, just to find out before I pass out — I'm in v late 70s but still sexually curious, & active up to a point tho a widower so having to do the best I can]. But what can it be, whatever it is, that makes people like Paco react with such negativity to just one aspect, when so much of such activity, hetero or homo or solo, manual or oral, 'specialist' or kinky or whatever, is, as I say, pretty bloody absurd & mucky anyhow!?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:43 AM

Ake & GfS.....

People of all sorts often pursue behavior that is dangerous or generally unhealthy! People overeat until they are morbidly obese: they smoke cigarettes, they drink way too much alcohol, they drive too fast (sometime after drinking too much), they climb cliff faces with no ropes...etc...
   But you seem to be putting sexual practices/inclinations into a separate category....and if I am reading between the lines correctly, you 'seem' to imply that homosexuality would be 'wrong' somehow, even if there were NO dangers involved!

*IF*, Ake, you really mean "The only prejudice I have is against death and suffering, and letting things go on as they are..", then all you should be concerned with is education about dangers, research into cures for HIV and counseling about **safe** sex...etc.; just like education about obesity, smoking, venereal diseases in general and alcoholism.

Sexuality is as powerful a force as there is: research done on monkeys showed that when electrodes were implanted which allowed the monkeys to stimulate the area of the brain controlling sexual pleasure, they would often forgo food in order to push the pleasure button!
We see heterosexuals also take chances, or just 'forget' to use reasonable care when desires drive them, and it is not really clear yet exactly why some people have better control than others. We DO know that in males, testosterone levels can be involved, and other hormone levels control a lot of sexual orientation.... we KNOW this, but you seem to wish to either deny this or ignore it as you cite 'statistics' in some attempt to paint homosexuality as 'chosen' and 'offensive'..(whether you use those words or not!)

People are different!! They don't all like the same kind of cake, they don't all like the same music, and they don't all have the same sexual orientation as YOU. There is more & more evidence that much of ALL orientations in life are influenced by brain chemistry and heredity. Why shrug about cake & music and fret about sex?

IF health is really all you care about, go volunteer to help with educational programs and donate to scientific reasearch!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Amos
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:42 AM

Paco:

Projecting your own revulsions to make it appear "most" "ordinary" people are sharing them is a common error, but it is still an error. I think it is a form of denial-by-distribution. Put it everywhere, and it won't be noticed. But, ultimately, you have to answer for your own revulsions and prejudices. Why, for example, would you invest so much energy being revolted by something you are not doing, not required to observe, and which is none of your own business? Just asking...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: theleveller
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:31 AM

"!Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts? "

I'm absolutely amazed that some people are still living in the dark ages. You are obviously sexually repressed, Paco.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:27 AM

"Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts?"

I am an ordinary person.

And a homosexual.

99% of the practices (such aromantic word) I indulge in can be, and are, indulged in by heterosexual couples.

Any more insightful contributions, Paco ??

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:17 AM

Homosexual men indulge in practises that revolt most ordinary people. Why will you never acknowledge the facts?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:14 AM

"Right from the start, my fight has not been against homosexuals, but the politically motivated people who wish to silence anyone who points out the Aids figures and demands a proper study"

Don't forget your assertions that Gay people are closet paedophiles who have no desire, much less ability to form meaningful relationships.

When questioned you have confirmed these views.

You have never denied them or rejected them.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Paco O'Barmy
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:06 AM

Homosexuality was ILEGAL in England, and it should have remained so. For some reason, every chat show on TV now has to be hosted by a fey homosexual,what happened to the world??

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 11:00 AM

Smedley...The only prejudice I have is against death and suffering, and letting things go on as they are( the homosexual Aids figures rising steadily), will only increase that death and suffering.

Right from the start, my fight has not been against homosexuals, but the politically motivated people who wish to silence anyone who points out the Aids figures and demands a proper study

These people pretend to protect minorities, but in reality their politics and their party mean more to them than the lives of homosexuals....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 09:47 AM

"The question of why so many gay men choose to put health concerns as a lower priority is the most difficult one to resolve"

or indeed heterosexual Girls and young women (see above)

and with that in mind we can say ... the rest of us too ...

... the answer? because we want to feel good and while a condom is so easy to put on, it is also so easy to forget to put on "because I was Drunk" or because "one thing led to another".

The only exception to this is Ake who went looking for a wife from day one (apparently) and never had more than one partner, and then only for procreative purposes.

GfS,


"Don Froth, You can say almost anything you want, to discredit me, doubt me, deceive others, or discourage others from getting to the truth...but you still haven't produced one shred of evidence to back up your faulty premise! Mine still stand. Nice try!"

Actually Gfs, for those of us with the ability to read and understand words and stuff, it is very clear that you have been making Slanderous assertions about Gay people and Don has been pointing out your lack of evidence to back them up.

"can be easily extrapolated by most people."

You mean as you insist on extrapolating, regardless of how scrutiny exposes that such conclusions are unsafe.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 08:14 AM

ToeRag, you are having a ball denouncing people with 20x your intelligence as 'stupid' today. Enjoy yourself, it'a a harmless occupation — for a self-styled ToeRag, ToeRag.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:47 AM

Ake, I'm not convinced by your 'manic depression' theory, I'm afraid.   It's almost as if you think that sex with many partners is a symptom of illness rather than a choice (albeit a choice made, as all choices are, within constraints).

There are gay men with mental health issues, though my supposition has always been that prejudice against & victimisation of homosexuality play a very large role in that scenario. I don't think that even the most 'sympathetic' hetero can fully grasp what it is like living in a situation where simply being honest about a key part of who you are can lead to such damaging responses. Happily I don't face many of those hostilities in my current daily life, but I only have to read some of the comments in threads like these to know that prejudice is alive & thriving.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 05:24 AM

Don Froth, You can say almost anything you want, to discredit me, doubt me, deceive others, or discourage others from getting to the truth...but you still haven't produced one shred of evidence to back up your faulty premise! Mine still stand. Nice try!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: KEVINOAF
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 04:38 AM

only woulld a dialogue between the nation that spawned idi amin on the one hand and theology that spawned the westboro' baptist church on the other would make such propositions have any credence!

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:36 AM

999...Sorry. I've been in bed for a few hours.
I referred to the CDC figures that 53% of all new cases in the US are among homosexuals. As homosexual make up 2-3% of the US population, the likelyhood of homosexual or heterosexual contraction can be easily extrapolated by most people.

Smedley...Thank you for your honesty.
Do you not think that the lower priority of health matters has something to do with the "Risk taking" referred to earlier....and do you put any credence on my view that manic depression may affect the behaviour of many homosexuals?

Manic depression is more widespread in all sections of the population than most people realise and can lead to all kinds of risky and destructive behaviour like addictions, promiscuity etc....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 03:05 AM

Ok, this thread seems to now be flushing out a few people who reckon homosexuality is wrong.

Why is it wrong?

Why have a group of people claiming to follow the teachings of a possibly mythical person, who reckoned to preach love, tolerance and understanding... want to kill people for their lifestyle? Especially as their lifestyle does not affect or interfere with their own lives?

To keep a folk aspect to it, I know many people who wouldn't and couldn't understand Morris dancing, sticking your finger in your ear and singing about reed cutting despite being born, bred and living in a city.

But many people do.

And enjoy it.

The difference being that nobody has an ingrained hatred of such people. Hobbies and interpretations of entertainment may not be the same as the bloke next door, but he doesn't open a page of a 2,000 year old book and claim the book says to kill them? Or if he did, we have a medical diagnosis for such behaviour.

To anybody who says homosexuality is wrong.. So, what is right then? Can we have a list so we can bow to your smug sanctimonious pathetic illness?

Just because I could never be gay, (it might make my eyes water,) doesn't mean that I despise people who are. I don't understand the fascination with bell ringing either yet my wife's family seem to revolve around it. Still married her. I didn't point and laugh....

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Smedley
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 02:18 AM

If gay men are inclined towards multiple partners rather than stable coupledom, and as a gay man myself I know that this is not wildly inaccurate, it is nothing to do with sexuality. It is to do with masculnity (most STRAIGHT men would also rut around rather than 'settle down'), and with capitalism (which has carved out a very lucrative little market in constructing the clubs and bars of the ''''gay scene'''').

Gay ''''''''promiscuity''''''' is also a direct consequence of homophobia: if you have finally decided it's OK to do something you have been told for years that you should not do, wouldn't you gorge yourself by doing it as often as you could ???

The question of why so many gay men choose to put health concerns as a lower priority is the most difficult one to resolve. But it won't be resolved by those in this thread who want to peddle the myths that homosexuality is intrinsically wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Dec 09 - 12:31 AM

"YOU CANNOT WIN when debating those whose mind is made up at the beginning....all you can do it put some reasonable points out so that others might see them.... and several have done a pretty good job of that."

Exactly so, Bill. I'm not so foolish that I think I can change the minds of people like Ake and GfS. They have their agenda and they will not waver from it. My concern (and I don't really think I have to continue being that concerned) is the confusion of the innocents – trying to set the record straight for any who might by impressed by Ake's "statistics" and GfS's claim that s/he knows because s/he's a "counselor." Neither has demonstrated that they are competent at their claimed professions. Quite the contrary.

Hell's bells, I've got a life to lead. I really don't need to dedicate my life to repeatedly refuting the perpetually recycled ravings of a couple of – here's the dreaded word again – bigots.

(Sorry, Little Hawk, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em.)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:36 PM

The problem with Ake is not the specific facts he quotes, many of which 'may' be accurate, but with what assumptions he and many others make about what conclusions can be drawn from data.

That is: one can state that there is 'higher incidence of HIV in certain populations' or that 'no one has found the "gay gene" yet' or even that 'specific sexual practices may make it easier to contract AIDS'.........but those (if they are true) are simply data!

None of these assumptions says anything relevant about the **moral** relevance of homosexuality! There are many human practices which are 'dangerous'...like rock climbing...or military service! But few would suggest that we ban or discriminate against those who indulge!

Ake...and others who are indignantly flinging data about are also implicitly suggesting that homosexuality IS a choice, that it is somehow immoral (was it immoral BEFORE HIV?), and that defending the rights of homosexuals is the same as promoting it.

There is this shifting back & forth from one asertion to another when they are challenged, creating a circular argument as they answer one rebuttal with a re-statement of a previously discredited claim....

You see what is happening? Ake...and others ...have a predetermined notion of what the truth NEEDS to be, so they use rhetoric and cherry-picking of facts to try to prop up their argument.
If we typed 47 paragraphs explaining WHY HIV affects a larger % of homosexual men than 'straight' men, and why it proves nothing relevant to any moral question, he would just switch the focus and eventually either just deny our conclusions or toss out some other set of 'facts' from some study done by some group which also has a predetermined 'answer' to promote!

YOU CANNOT WIN when debating those whose mind is made up at the beginning....all you can do it put some reasonable points out so that others might see them.... and several have done a pretty good job of that.

(sheesh... I wish I had typed all that when I wasn't so tired. I don't think I said it very well...but maybe I got across what a flawed argument form Ake is using.)

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 11:30 PM

With Cecil, it wasn't quite that way. We were going to the University of Washington together and often met for coffee at the student union building cafeteria. With dozens if not hundreds of people around and several people at the same table, I've seen him fall asleep with his chin in his coffee cup.

I was surprised that he was that apprehensive about Tony. Tony was definitely gay, but he played it for all it was worth. He worked every stereotype. I'm pretty sure it was an attention-getting device. Of course, it could get him punched out, and on more than one occasion, a couple of guys would jump him and beat him up just for the hell of it.

I thought he was a real snort! Over the top! Sometimes he and I would do off-the-cuff jokes, mainly to shock and horrify people in the vicinity. Once we were sitting in a booth in a coffee shop near the university. There were five of us at the table. I was in an inner corner and Tony had pulled up a chair and was sitting at the end of the table.

At one point, Tony said, "Don, would you pass me a napkin?"

I reached for the napkin dispenser, and—the devil made me do it. I asked him, "Super, regular, or junior?"

Everybody's chin hit the table. Tony looked at me with a smirk and said, "Oh, Donnie, you are such a bitch sometimes."

All in good fun, but the rest of the people didn't know it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:54 PM

LOL! That's not harrowing, Don, it's funny.

Yeah, we have those storms here now and then. I think you call that an ice storm, and it's a nasty business, specially if there's a power outage from the ice bringing down branches or trees, and there often is.

Some people, Don, cannot sleep all night if anyone is in the same bed with them, regardless of sexual orientation. Maybe even if anyone is in the same room with them. I have the sad fate of being one of those people. It's simply that my mind is too active, and the awareness of the other person being there...just the simple awareness itself...keeps me awake. It's not that I'm worried about them being there. I just cannot stop my mind from thinking about it. I have, in desperation, tried meditative techniques, etc, to stop that from happening, but nothing works except experiencing it repeatedly for some time until the complete lack of sleep finally exhausts me so much that my body falls asleep out of total enervation.

Trust me...it's worse than what Cecil experienced. It lasts longer.

The first time I acquired a steady live-in girlfriend, I barely slept for about 3 solid months! And it wasn't because of the sex. Nope. It was because I simply needed to be alone in the bed to fall asleep.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 10:33 PM

Little Hawk, back in the late 1950s, Cecil, a friend of mine told me an absolutely harrowing story.

It was one of those extremely rare weather phenomena in Seattle (probably not that rare in Ontario) when it snowed several inches, then froze. This kind of thing can shut Seattle down. A bunch of people were partying it up and suddenly found that they were frozen in. The last person with a car had already left, the buses had stopped running, and the cab companies weren't answering their phones (nothing but busy signals). In short, about eight people were stranded. There were enough beds there if people slept double.

After a lot of shuffling and dealing, Cecil, to his horror, wound up assigned to sleep with Tony. Tony, even back in the Fifties, was out. Very out! Positively swishy!

Cec and Tony went to bed. Cec was tense. He was apprehensive. He was on his guard. In fact, he didn't sleep all night! He lay there with his muscles in a knot. It was a horrible night. For him, a waking nightmare. A wide-awaking nightmare! The longest night of his life!

He got up the next morning with multiple bags under his eyes and feeling like someone had dropped a grand piano on him.

Tony had rolled over and gone to sleep immediately, slept soundly all night, and woke up refreshed, bright-eyed, and bushy-tailed.

He wasn't the least bit interested in Cec.

Poor Cecil. Much ado about nothing.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Lox
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 09:23 PM

Ake,

"I want to LEARN why homosexuals are 50 times more likely to get Aids than heterosexuals. Is that being dogmatic?"


No, you've implied and then later confirmed on more than one thread that you think Gay men are closet paedophiles and that they are more promiscuous than everyone else.

This dogma remains unsupported.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:48 PM

I want to clarify something I said earlier, that all those guys were openly gay. Phil had "come out" not too long before he had that conversation with me, but I hadn't heard anything about it, so I was surprised when he propositioned me. He had been living with a Trinidadian woman not too long before that, so I simply assumed he was heterosexual. He was, in fact, bisexual...but his later preference seemed to be for homosexuality after the relationship with the Trinidadian girl had ended.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:41 PM

I'm sure the overall situation has changed a great deal, Don, since everyone (heterosexuals included) is well aware that the risks of unprotected promiscuity have gone way up. Of those guys I mentioned, I knew one of them in the 70s and the other two in the early 80s.

One of them did proposition me one time...but he didn't "come on" to me in any aggressive way, he just asked if I was interesting in "going out with him", so to speak. That was the artist guy in the 70s. I was quite surprised, because I hadn't realized he was gay. He said, "Well, I thought maybe you were, because you haven't had a girlfriend that I know of in the last couple of years that I've known you..."

I laughed. "Yeah, that's true," I said, "but it's not because I'm gay, it's because I'm simply hopeless at finding myself a girlfriend. I'm usually in love with some female who isn't with me, and she's always interested in someone else. I could hardly BE more desirous of women than I already am..."

So that was that. We continued having our coffee and talking about some other stuff instead. That was Phil. He was a pretty cool guy, and a totally wacky artist, but he had talent.

I don't think I know anyone at present who has contracted AIDS. If so, I haven't heard a word about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:33 PM

HIV/AIDS deaths and people living with HIV/AIDS are still most prevalent in Africa. 50% of the people worldwide living with the disease are female. It is and has been a disease most devastating to heterosexual individuals in terms of numbers. To conclude that homosexuals are largely responsible for the spread of the disease is simply ignorant. The numbers say otherwise.   



AIDS statistics around the world

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 08:07 PM

Little Hawk, also over the years I have known a number of gay men (musicians, actors, one dancer—generally in the Arts one way or the other ["Oh, goodie!" some might crow. "Stereotypes!"]), who seemed to be generally playing the field, but not any more promiscuously than any other single male (!), and there, as you say, none of them ever came on to me.

But these guys were not dummies, and when and if they had a sexual relationship with another man, they were certain aware of what the risks were, and I know they were smart enough to a) know the other person well enough to be aware of their state of health, and b) even so, take the necessary precautions.

Some years ago I was acquainted with a few gay men who had contracted AIDS, but that was before the outbreak was well under way. None lately that I am aware of.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:37 PM

Reality Check.

The Life Site News web site from which that article came is a Christian fundamentalist site devoted to "Life, Family, and Culture." Nuff said.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:25 PM

Ake,

Dr Amy Lansky's figures are about ten years old. I'm not. She points out that there were then 692.2/100,000 NEW cases of HIV in the homosexual population. The further extrapolations in that article come from someone else who, it seems has some sort of axe to grind with the homosexual population. Not a good source, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:11 PM

Hell, Ake. The bias in that article just GLOWS.

By Patrick B. Craine

ATLANTA, Georgia, August 24, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - An official with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) announced the CDC's estimate Monday that in the United States AIDS is fifty times more prevalent among men who have sex with men ('MSM') than the rest of the population. Dr. Amy Lansky revealed this statistic during a plenary session at the 2009 HIV Prevention Conference in Atlanta.

The CDC had already revealed last year that approximately 53% of the estimated 56,300 new HIV cases in 2006 were in homosexual men, with the African American population being particularly affected.

The new statistics, however, estimate the prevalence of HIV/AIDS relative to the homosexual population, which allows comparisons to other groups in the wider population. Because of the difficulty of determining the homosexual population, the CDC had to estimate. Based on a variety of national surveys, they based their statistics on the median estimate that homosexual men constitute 4 percent of the overall male population, reports RH Reality Check.

According to Dr. Lansky, then, based on the 4 percent figure, the CDC estimates that in 2007 there were 692.2 new HIV cases per 100,000 homosexual men - or fifty times more cases than the rest of the population.

While merely an approximation, the CDC's announcement confirms previous statistics and studies that indicate vastly disproportionate occurrence of sex-related diseases in homosexuals. According toa February 2007 study, for example, homosexual men with HIV are 90 times more likely to develop anal cancer than the rest of the population.

Earlier this year, as another example, the Centers for Disease Control released a statistical report indicating that homosexual men made up 65 percent of the reported primary and secondary syphilis cases in 2007. A report from the Public Health Agency of Canada in 2006 revealed that 51 percent of people infected with HIV in the country were homosexual men.

In fact, the statistics on HIV/AIDS led one group, the Los Angeles Gay and Lesbian Center, to state in 2006 that HIV/AIDS is a "gay disease," in a billboard ad campaign geared to reducing rates of HIV infection.

While homosexualists have actively suppressed such statistics in the past and focused on portraying HIV/AIDS as a disease affecting the whole population in an equal fashion, the statistics' increasing undeniability has forced their hand. Rather than admit any inherent problem with homosexual practice itself, however, the apparent prevalence of disease among practicing homosexuals has led them to switch tactics and use these statistics to urge governments and other organizations to increase support to the homosexual communities.

Asking why it has taken so long for the CDC to make its estimate about the high prevalence of AIDS among homosexual men, homosexual activist Dr. Senterfitt chalked it up to 'homophobia'. "Seems clear to me," he says, "that this was at least an indirect effect of the pervasive homophobia still affecting much of government, public policy, media and societal norms in this country."

"We must fight for funding and adequate social investment to end HIV/AIDS wherever it continues to persist and thrive," he argues, "which is almost always where concentrated social injustice also thrives."

Pro-family advocates, on the other hand, maintain that the prevalence of sex-related diseases among homosexuals is clear evidence of the disorder of homosexual practice. For example, in a commentary for LifeSiteNews.com published last year, J. Matt Barber stated, "By recently admitting that 'HIV is a gay disease,' Matt Foreman, outgoing Executive Director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, acknowledged what the medical community has known for decades: the homosexual lifestyle is extremely high-risk and often leads to disease and even death."

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:08 PM

http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:najCMCXqob0J:www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/aug/09082609.html+homosexuals+more+likely+to+get

Is that the site you quote?

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:02 PM

Nope. Please provide the link or address. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:01 PM

I would prefer facts from an organization like CDC or WHO, not places like

www.afec.org/issues/homosexuality/facts.htm

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 07:00 PM

CDC...read the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:48 PM

I respectfully request the medical source of that fact, Ake.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:43 PM

In the US homosexuals are 50 times more likely to develop Aids than heterosexuals...fact....please explain.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:36 PM

Since the cross-over of SIV to humans, one thing is certain. Stopping homosexuality will not stop the spread of HIV in humans. It's clear that although the 'first' reports of AIDS in North America were amongst gay men, the organism existed long before that in the human population, and not only amongst the homosexual population.

"Four of the earliest known instances of HIV infection are as follows:

A plasma sample taken in 1959 from an adult male living in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo.9
A lymph node sample taken in 1960 from an adult female, also from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. (10)
HIV found in tissue samples from an American teenager who died in St. Louis in 1969. (11)
HIV found in tissue samples from a Norwegian sailor who died around 1976. (12)
A 1998 analysis of the plasma sample from 1959 suggested that HIV-1 was introduced into humans around the 1940s or the early 1950s. (13)

In January 2000, the results of a new study (14) suggested that the first case of HIV-1 infection occurred around 1931 in West Africa. This estimate (which had a 15 year margin of error) was based on a complex computer model of HIV's evolution.

However, a study in 2008 (15) dated the origin of HIV to between 1884 and 1924, much earlier than previous estimates. The researchers compared the viral sequence from 1959 (the oldest known HIV-1 specimen) to the newly discovered sequence from 1960. They found a significant genetic difference between them, demonstrating diversification of HIV-1 occurred long before the AIDS pandemic was recognised."

So, unless the name of the game here is to slam homosexuals, then please deal with the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Death penalty for homosexuality?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 09 - 06:21 PM

Speaking of meeting real people...I've known at least three openly homosexual men back when I was living in Toronto. One was a musician...an interesting guy who had a long career in the folk-rock field, played in a band backing Dylan once, and we shared a common interest in model aircraft. I don't think he was looking around much for a monogamous relationship. He played the field.

Another guy was living in a rooming house where I rented for awhile. Again, very interesting guy, terrific conversationalist, but I think he was playing the field too as far as I know.

The third guy was an artist, a good friend for many years, and a very bright and amusing character. Again, he seemed to pretty much play the field as far as I could see. He died young of some illness. I don't know if it was AIDS or what it was, but I heard from mutual friends that he had passed away.

I draw no particular conclusions from the above, I'm just recounting my own direct personal acquaintances with friends who were openly homosexual. They didn't try to hide it from anyone, and it didn't create any problems between them and me and the general circle of people I knew at the time.

I've also known a handful of women who were lesbians. Again, it simply wasn't a problem. Not for me, anyway. Maybe for their parents? I can't say.