Criticism at singarounds

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 05:47 AM

One comment. If you're going to do it, then you need to be (and be known to be) well above that performer's level.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 05:24 AM

I'm puzzled how one can be "too loud" without amplifiers. Although to be fair, at close quarters the late Dave Bryant (of this forum), was impressive!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 05:02 AM

Craigie - :-) That is the sense of humour you need. Again seriously, it doesn't matter what I think. It has happened now!

DtG

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 04:06 AM

Another vote for Canalwheeler's post on 23.10. I go to a number of different sessions, but one which contains many of the features that are anathema to some: people using crib sheets, singing off key, changing key repeatedly mid-song, timing idiosyncrasies etc. but yet it is a lovely friendly club and we put up with each other's imperfections and everyone supports each other. It is not a concert, after all!
I have very rarely had a private word with someone, twice because there had been a change of a key word from the original song which completely altered or destroyed the meaning of the song: they had "got the words off the internet", of course!
And once when the singer had the verse and chorus tunes in the wrong places, which kind of threw anyone trying to join in the chorus: "most people usually sing it this way" was my approach, rather than "you've got that all wrong". He thanked me several weeks later, and certainly was not offended.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 02:51 AM

as someone who has waited half a century before performing in front of otheres i would say encouragement is the most valuable thing. Not all, maybe not many people who play music are natural performers and have any sense of stagecraft. If clubs were to run mini workshops just before a singaround run by experienced people it might help a lot of new performers.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 02:50 AM

Not so much solipsism a humble little gathering where the old songs are sung with quiet humility. I always think of it as a seance in a dirty back room where roofs can be raised on the choruses, but not at the expense of a basic sort of dignity that precludes anything so much as resembling stage-craft. There is no stage and there is no audience; just a gathering of erudite enthusiasts whose craft is a humble reverence to the old singers and the songs they sung.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Oct 13 - 02:41 AM

" ... if somebody's singing off-key, do you think it's a good idea for another singer in the singaround to go up to them and say "it's a shame you were singing off-key"?"

Here's a thought! Perhaps someone who attempts to deliver some criticism is actually braver than the singer who stands up in front of an audience and sings off key - especially given the un/anti-critical attitude which tends to prevail in many folk venues today(?)

Of course, it all depends on whether the critic was genuinely trying to be helpful or was just delivering a spiteful put-down ...

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:48 PM

I find I'm singing with my eyes shut more and more - not catching anyone's eye means that I can concentrate on the song. Again, it seems to work - and certainly there are some singers who I find very engaging, despite them singing with their eyes closed.

You can easily get people's attention before you start if you take yourself and your material seriously. Doesn't affect that if your eyes are shut afterwards, though some interactions are only possible if you look.

Singarounds aren't the place to be involving audiences

A singaround with that ethos ends up as a chapter of Solipsists Anonymous.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM

There are only two things that are allowable to criticize:

1.) Bad tuning

2.) Loud performing

Those two things effect the overall experience for everyone... Everything else can be over looked... If you feel like taking someone aside in private after a session and offering some help that's fine but it needs to be done with a lot of sensitivity...

I mean, some folks aren't all that experiences and might appreciate someone doing that...

B~

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: MartinRyan
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:53 PM

* Note : CRACK not CRAIC. I am a Tynesider, not a habitue of 90s Irish theme pubs.


Here, here! (sick)

Regards

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:16 PM

Ive had someone comment on the volume balance between the instrument and the voice - really helpful as you don't hear that from behind the insstrument as much.
FloraG.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:07 PM

Quick tip: if you really want to know whether you're singing off-key or not - record yourself singing several songs. Play it all back and accompany yourself with a guitar or similar...

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 02:46 PM

Singarounds aren't the place to be involving audiences - as singers themselves they should already be involved. Of course if you're pissed enough at the end of a good night & the crack's* going canny then a bit of showboating don't hurt! Floor spots are slightly different, but even in performances I find too much 'involvement' really gets in the way of a song. I recently saw Michael Hurley - he played for two hours as if the audience weren't there at all. Bliss!

* Note : CRACK not CRAIC. I am a Tynesider, not a habitue of 90s Irish theme pubs.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 01:34 PM

Like whether the singer made any attempt at all to involve the audience

Depends what you mean. The first time I sang at a folk club I looked straight ahead, caught somebody's eye, thought "Christ! People are looking at me!", flinched and looked up. Then I found I was looking straight at the window in the back wall, with a streetlight beyond; that suited me, so I sang to the back wall, which was about 40 feet away (it was a long room). I think it worked OK.

These days, on the other hand, I find I'm singing with my eyes shut more and more - not catching anyone's eye means that I can concentrate on the song. Again, it seems to work - and certainly there are some singers who I find very engaging, despite them singing with their eyes closed.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 12:41 PM

if somebody's singing off-key, do you think it's a good idea for another singer in the singaround to go up to them and say "it's a shame you were singing off-key"?

There are usually more important issues to worry about. Like whether the singer made any attempt at all to involve the audience. That one is common to both traditional and contemporary stuff, though they have different excuses for not doing it.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 12:06 PM

It's hard to play a synth without one! But it's always soft - a wee Roland Micro Cube, quiet enough to play the fiddle against & sing. Comes out like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N66yiUkVwuo

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: kendall
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM

I won't go near a singaround if there is an amp there.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM

"it's a shame you were singing off-key"?   does seem to be a blunt and insensitive criticism; that is how some people are. However, allowing people to believe they are good singers leads to the X Factor syndrome, where artists have been convinced by family and friends that their singing is great, only for their illusions to be shattered in a public humiliation.
Over the years, I have seen singers in various folk settings whose singing has never improved. I have sat and listened to dire singing and have of course dutifully clapped as a polite audience does.
I wonder whether this polite conspiracy of non-criticism has helped either the singers themselves or the perception of "Folk song" amongst the wider public.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 11:13 AM

Dave - I'm outraged that you should even suggest that I haven't accepted the criticism. How very dare you? What's more, if you suggest that I haven't accepted your criticism (of suggesting that I don't accept criticism) I shall be outraged at that as well. I'm disgusted, disgusted I tell you, by people attempting to criticise me, and the only thing that disgusts me even more is when people attempt to suggest that I don't take criticism well. As a matter of fact I take criticism better than anyone I know, and I don't think anyone would suggest otherwise. And if they did then I wouldn't let them be my friend any more. So there.

Hoping you are well,

Craigie

PS Seriously, can I open up the etiquette question again, because I think it's actually quite interesting. Quoting myself (and directed generally, not just at Dave):

if somebody's singing off-key, do you think it's a good idea for another singer in the singaround to go up to them and say "it's a shame you were singing off-key"?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 10:09 AM

The singarounds I attend are 'acoustic'. That is we don't want amplification of vocals. A small portable amp/speaker set-up was allowed when my brother played very good fretless bass with our group. Another player also uses a small amp for a bass when he plays with his group. A third performer does occasionally play electronic keyboard to great effect. But we draw the line at amplifying vocals. The acoustic vocals set the low level of the necessarily amplified instruments.

If the vocals were amplified too, then it would become an open mike session not a singaround, and the audience would be likely to treat it like wall-paper music and talk loudly all over it.

Tone

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 09:57 AM

Obviously there's an element of amplification involved, but I'm thinking of the comments I've suffered over the years about my use of an electronic shruti box and / or small synthesisers, such as the Korg Kaossilator & Monotribe, both of which I find ideal for accompanying traditional balladry.

Still, at least it deflects the flack away from wife's banjo! That's another thing I despair of - in jokes!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: kendall
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 09:40 AM

Jack B, why does anyone need "electronics" at a sing around? By electronics, do you mean an amplifier?

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Campin
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 09:35 AM

I have found people can be remarkably tolerant of off key singers, which mean they rarely get negative feedback. However, play your guitar out of tune and there will be a queue to point this out to you.

If you're looking for excessive tolerance, an open mike for singer-songwriters is the place. The whole setting makes it impossible to express any reservations other than voting with your feet.

Maybe a few of these people go to songwriting workshops where they get real feedback, but for most they're never going to be told about the commonest and most important problems in that genre - unintelligible delivery, overblown and pretentious language, dull and cliched tunes, and subjects that were better not sung about. Intonation is a minor issue in comparison.

Maybe the reason guitar tuning gets the flak is that it's the only thing people feel safe complaining about.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:28 AM

Anyone with a passion for Traditional Song & Balladry is fine by me. I don't care how good or bad they are as a singer - as long as they do their research : dig deep, learn the words, live with the song, be able to account for its traditional provenance (singing off records is not good enough) and (most importantly) check the ego in at the door.

The only thing that I object to at a singaround is racist comments concerning 'Our Culture' and 'Muslims' - and those from self-styled purists about the use of electronics as not being 'Traditional'.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:20 AM

Dave - the point is, I did accept it;

Not really, Craigie. This thread show that you have far from accepted it and your further justifications in lambasting your critic seem to indicate that they did touch a nerve.

Please don't get me wrong - I am not criticising you or your singing. I don't know either. Just saying that it does look like you subsequently decided not to accept the criticism and created this thread accordingly. I think the best thing you can do is make a joke of it. Next time you are there purposely look the critic in the and say something like 'I am sure (insert name) will tell me where I am going wrong'.

Hope this helps and please don't take offence at my remarks. You did invite viewpoints and suggestions and these are mine.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Andiliqueur
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:19 AM

Yup, I'm with you Big Al.
As a relative newcomer to singarounds and Mudcat threads. I've really enjoyed following this.
I sing and go home. This thread has covered all the chats I've never had with other performers. I just wouldn't dare. Thanks everyone.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:12 AM

I think audience reaction in singarounds and folk clubs is not always a reliable indicator of performance. These settings are, by and large attended by polite and sympathetic people. This is a good and supportive thing, but may not provide the most objective feedback.
I guess your critic was rather too blunt and perhaps you are a little overprotective. My personal view is that if I choose to sing in public, which I do, then I must accept the right of said public to express a view on my performance.
john

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 08:02 AM

surely criticism is best if its manual.
if you don't like a singer, give him or her a smack - if you really like them, offer to feel their bum.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:11 AM

Surely criticism is best if it's mutual and the best way to initiate that is to invite it rather than offer it.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: cooperman
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 06:11 AM

Great Canalwheeler. These can become the 'fifteen commandments' to be put up on folk club notice boards (slightly tongue in cheek!)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:51 AM

johncharles - being 'cocooned' and darling-you-were-wonderful isn't really the point. If I do screw up a song I want to know about it (although I think audience reactions will tell me first); when there are things I can learn from people I respect, I'm glad to learn them. It's a matter of what you say, how you say it, when you say it & even who you say it to (i.e. how well do you know the person). As I said above, "Nice song, what a shame you were out of tune" is not "sensitive, thoughtful, constructive criticism".

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:44 AM

"I am not the duffer you are looking for."

I never said that you were! As far as I know, I've never heard you sing for a start!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:35 AM

Will
In the long run, your most immediate and accessible critic is your audience, whether they are good singers or not - they are the ones you have to move if you are going to sing in public.   
Jim Carroll

Absolutely Jim!

Years of playing for money in working mens' clubs taught me that!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:32 AM

I have found people can be remarkably tolerant of off key singers, which mean they rarely get negative feedback. However, play your guitar out of tune and there will be a queue to point this out to you.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: johncharles
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:20 AM

The "singaround" tends to be a rather protective environment. If there are less than adequate singers they are unlikely to criticise each other. This may lead to an overestimation of ones abilities.
Go and sing in situations where the majority of the audience are not "folkies", it may be painful at times but the feedback is more useful in improving your performance than the cocooned singaround setting.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:11 AM

Or, boil it down and just say "have a good time (and try to help the audience to have a good time too), and get on with it!"

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:11 AM

"What I most definitely don't want to hear is 'creepy Jack' mechanically and tunelessly droning through some bit of dogerrel in his greasy notebook for the umpteenth time!!"

What on earth makes you think this has anything to do with what we're discussing on this thread?

I regularly sing 20+verse ballads at singarounds. People applaud (and nobody leaves!). On the night in question I was considering doing The Outlandish Knight - to a modal tune I found in a book & modified slightly - but decided against because I hadn't sung it out in years & hadn't practised it properly on the day. I am not the duffer you are looking for.

"she obviously works at her art. Just think how good she could be if exposed to sensitive, thoughtful, constructive criticism"

Maybe so. In fact, definitely so - I could name you some singers I respect enormously, and if one of them were to take me aside and say "I wonder if you've ever thought of..." I would be all ears. But "Nice song, what a shame you were out of tune" is not "sensitive, thoughtful, constructive criticism".

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Uncle Tone
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 05:08 AM

Advice for singers at singarounds:

1. Come on time

2. Tune the guitar before the evening starts, not when it's your go

3. Decide what you are going to do several days before the event, and practise it

4. Learn the words. Know who wrote it, or what the song is about. Leave the crib sheet in the guitar box. You'll be surprised how much your performance will be improved if you actually know the words

5. When it's your go, be prepared. Don't waste time fishing the guitar out of its box, tuning it and waffling about what you did last Wednesday somewhere else

6. Get on with it

7. Don't sing it too fast

8. If you play a bum chord, don't stop and play it again, ignore the error. The audience probably won't even notice it, or they might think it is innovative!

9. If you forget the words, apologise, and if you can't remember them at all, then look 'em up or start a new verse, or give up. Nobody is going to think any less of you. It happens to us all, especially as we get older

10. Listen to what others do and be interested. You might learn something. Give praise where praise is due

11. Don't leave as soon as you've had your go. That demonstrates that you have no interest in what others do. It's also damned rude

12. Be grateful for any friendly constructive advice given, even if you have no intention of taking it

13. Dare to be different. You don't have to sing the song exactly as it is done by somebody famous on a recording

14. Thank the organiser for putting in the effort on your behalf. Buy him/her a pint (Some hopes!)

15. Have a good time. Although most folk songs are miserable or introspective, it doesn't mean the singer has to be too

All offered in the context of the thread, slightly tongue in cheek.

Tone (an organiser, sometimes)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:58 AM

"Just take it from me: I'm an OK singer and an uncalled-for criticism really spoiled my evening."
Then I've misunderstood you C.H. and I apologies and totally agree with you.
I don't think I encountered many unjustified and unsolicited criticisms, but I'm sure they exist - they certainly do in other fields of art.
But the general point still stands, sincere criticism is too often mistaken for condemnation and as a whole, the British folk scene as a whole seems to have undergone a course of injections in order to ward off any form of critical discussion on performance.
Like your choice of name BTW - one of my favourite songs.
Will
In the long run, your most immediate and accessible critic is your audience, whether they are good singers or not - they are the ones you have to move if you are going to sing in public.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:43 AM

Of course my 'method' was meant to be facetious (although it's often close to what I'm thinking at singarounds these days!).

In my opinion Jim is absolutely right. It's these mawkish, "oh isn't anyone who's brave enough to sing wonderful!" and "no-one should be criticised - criticism is cruel and heartless" attitudes which mean that so many of our singarounds are dominated by talentless, boring, irritating, excruciatingly bad, lazy session-hoggers.

Good singers are skilled, and daring - they take risks. They are able to express the beauty of the songs and the emotions contained within them. If they are singing ballads (story songs) they know how to bring the narrative to life and to involve their audience in it. THESE are the things that we should be aiming for! THESE are the things that I want to experience in a session. What I most definitely don't want to hear is 'creepy Jack' mechanically and tunelessly droning through some bit of dogerrel in his greasy notebook for the umpteenth time!!

A few months ago a young woman turned up at the singaround that I attend. The first couple of times round she wasn't particularly good (good taste in songs though) but she got progressively better. One night she was asked to sing and she was electrifying! Suddenly, right in front of me, was raw talent! But she obviously works at her art. Just think how good she could be if exposed to sensitive, thoughtful, constructive criticism.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:24 AM

I don't think anyone would disagree with you on your basic point, Jim - the point of the OP is how, when and where the criticism was/should be offered. The people you cite were probably skilled in doing it the right way.

When I was a budding guitar player, I was lucky enough to be helped and criticised by some very good players, of whom I'll mention three:

Mike Deighan, a brilliant banjo and guitar player from my home town who I used to play duets with - occasionally in public. He was (and probably still is) a clever, experienced player with a caustic wit and no scruples about telling like it like it was. I learned so much from him. (I believe Mike is still the current banjo player with the Temperance Seven).

Mick Wayne, brother to my oldest friend, from Kingston in Surrey. Mick died tragically in a fire some years ago, alas, but I played with him both formally and informally in the late '60s and '70s. A wonderful player who could play anything in any key, he was warm and inviting. He was a thousand times better than I'll ever be but, when I played with him, he made me up my game and rise to better things by his sheer brilliance. Mick was one of the guitarists with David Bowie, played guitar on "Space Oddity", led a band called Junior's Eyes and was briefly a member of the Pink Fairies - for those with memories.

Diz Disley - the incomparable Diz sat in with our London jug band on many occasions (he lived upstairs in the pub where we played). A great man. His best advice ever to me at the end of an evening's playing was about the song "Doctor Jazz": Do learn the fucking chords, dear boy.

All gave excellent advice - but more or less in a one-to-one situation.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 04:12 AM

"This seems to be shuffling it's way around all the old arguments - all roads of which lead to "nobody has the right to criticise my singing""

On the contrary, Jim, I specifically said I didn't want to talk about people who are totally useless, refuse to learn, etc, and I didn't want to get into the hoary old "GEFF" argument. I certainly don't believe that anything goes, or should be allowed to go, in a singaround. There are people who genuinely can't carry a tune, there are people who don't think they need to learn, and they need dealing with (although not necessarily by Shimrod's method).

Just take it from me: I'm an OK singer and an uncalled-for criticism really spoiled my evening.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:41 AM

This seems to be shuffling it's way around all the old arguments - all roads of which lead to "nobody has the right to criticise my singing" - pretty unique to the folk scene.
If you stick your bum out of a window, you shouldn't be surprised if someone paints a face on it - if you sing in public, expect criticism, or stay at home and sing to your rubber duck in the bath.
Far from the hoary old chestnut that "those who can't, criticise", some of the best critics I have ever known and known about, and the most welcome as far as I'm concerned, are those who can sing and are generous enough to expend time and energy in helping others (not to mention run gauntlets of abuse such as displayed here) - MacColl, Seeger, Frankie Armstrong, Sandra Kerr, Bob Blair, Terry Yarnell - and earlier, Gordon McCulloch, Denis Turner, Bobby Campbell, Luke Kelly - and people like Charles Parker and Philip Donnelan, who brought other skills to the folk scene, - all proficient in their chosen expertise.
Not to say that you have to be a good singer or radio producer to be a perceptive listener - that would be elitism.
I think it was me who introduced the subject of 'minimum standards in clubs' to this forum - guilty and proud of it!
An audience who turns out on a cold wet night to sit in a sometimes gloomy room furnished with uncomfortable chairs (not to mention the warm piss that often masquerades as good English beer), deserves, at the very least, to be given a standard of singing that transcends some of the tuneless mumblings (often from crib-sheets) that drove me from many of the clubs in the latter days.
Despite some of the claims here, I never met anybody who knew they were, or admitted to being, a crap singer, but I sat through far too many of them at folk clubs.
The argument that the act of singing is more important than being a singer, so nobody should be turned away, would only work if we all sprang from the womb warbling 'The Flying Cloud'.
We don't, and we should all be grateful for any help offered by anybody generous enough to help us get there.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Oct 13 - 03:36 AM

***100***

From: GUEST,Andiliqueur - PM
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 08:42 AM

I sang a Stan Rogers song with all my heart and soul. I felt that I'd sung it as well as I possibly could. I needed a darkened room to recover. Then someone said "Who is it who does a REALLY good version of that song"? I collapsed into hysterical laughter. It was so funny. How can anyone get a big head in a singaround?
Take it as a compliment. They're looking for a "Really good" version, which seems to accept that yours was a good version.

Cheers
Nigel


***100***

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 11:51 PM

Craigie, I think your final paragraph sums it up nicely - completely agree with you.

Think I'd be tempted, next time I saw her, to ask if she normally volunteers unsolicited criticism to all and sundry... or, if I was feeling particularly reckless, to say something along the lines of "Nice to see you at the last session. Shame about your insensitive behaviour, though..."

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 07:34 PM

Dave - the point is, I did accept it; I agonised over it & seriously considered leaving at half time rather than risk inflicting another out-of-tune horror on the room. I also thought seriously about going around the people I knew in the room, taking them each on one side and saying "My singing... is it, you know, is it OK?" or words to that effect. This wasn't practical, which is probably just as well.

This may sound like an over-reaction, but think it through. I've been doing this stuff at singarounds & the like for many years. If I think I've done fine and somebody tells me straight out that I was just that bit out of tune, to me this says that my ear's off as well as my voice - and that the result was bad enough to be worth commenting on. I haven't had any recent damage to my ears, so presumably my ear's been off all these years. We've all known people who can't carry a tune in a bucket but never realise it - so what I'm hearing is that, although I think I sing quite well, actually I'm one of those people (and I don't realise it, because if you're one of those people you never do realise it).

You know there's a football chant, "You're s**t and you know you are" (to the tune of "Go West")? The message I was getting was the rather less rhythmic "You're s**t and you don't know you are (because you're s**t at that too)".

It was enough to make me forget that people had clapped (loudly) when I finished that song, and forget the difference between that and a polite ripple; forget the compliments I'd received in the past; forget all the practice I'd done and all the listening (including recording myself and listening back). It was a blow.

I don't even reject the criticism now, not totally. I don't exclude the possibility that a couple of notes actually were just that bit off, and that I didn't register them myself because I skated over them to get to a bit of the tune I was more comfortable with. I do exclude the possibility that it spoiled the song, though, just based on other people's reaction.

The bottom line is, I don't think it was appropriate for somebody I don't know that well to call a problem with my singing to my attention, when the problem wasn't that big and I clearly wasn't concerned about it myself. If I look blissfully ignorant of why the room emptied when I started singing, then I think you can burst my bubble. (As it goes I'm hyper-conscious of anyone who's left, who's lurking in the doorway, who's yawning, etc, so for me the blissful ignorance part isn't likely.) If I had a minor problem but I look like I'm worried about it, you can commiserate. And if we're friends, you can say what you like - come right out and ask if I've got a cold or something. But if none of those apply, however pure your motives are I think you should keep shtum.

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:38 PM

I've come up with a fair and just solution to this whole dilemma:

A new singer turns up at a singaround, right? After three months the organiser, after discussing the matter with the rest of the group, takes him (or her) to one side and gives him a fair appraisal of his singing . The newby is then warned that he must improve or else. After six months the process is repeated. If, after nine months, there is still insufficient improvement he is frog-marched out into the car park and duffed-over. At the end of a year if the newcomer is still boring everyone shitless, reads his songs from an old note-book, is excessively irritating, can't sing in tune, or has not built up an interesting repertoire etc., etc. he is duffed-over again and then expelled from the singaround.

What do you think? I think that my scheme should do wonders for the general standard of singarounds!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:13 PM

" ... maybe it is those with an ego-driven agenda that cannot accept honest criticism?"

There's a great deal of truth in that!

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 06:03 PM

Hmmm. I'm not so sure. Not saying you are wrong Craigie but maybe it is those with an ego-driven agenda that cannot accept honest criticism? I was not there. I don't know either of the protagonists but a good case can be made for both interpretations can it not?

Cheers

DtG
(AKA Devils advocate!)

Subject: RE: Criticism at singarounds
From: GUEST,Craigie Hill
Date: 24 Oct 13 - 02:47 PM

"Only those with an ego-driven agenda would offer gratuitous criticism to anyone attempting to sing in public."

Just what the truth is I can't say any more... but I think this isn't far off!