BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:35 PM

OK Bill,

Provide us with an example of a grey area.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:34 PM

This thread seems to have veered wildly from the original premise. I think the original question has been answered repeatedly - NO!- and gone on into fantasy land.

Love is(n't easy to find- and the enduring kind necessarily takes time. Some people never find it, and some people don't even want that kind of relationship). In any case, being foolish in its pursuit is not a capital offense and not for others to judge.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:32 PM

Black cherry please :-)

... though I hardly deserve it

At least some lightness has been blown into the thread

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:10 PM

cheating? - for shame

For enterprise however - what flavour? :)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM

I did cheat though Emma :-(

But what did crop up and is worth reading just the first paragraph is

British women's low status in the 19th century

Sounds a great place to go back to for women

NOT!

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 06:02 PM

Florence Nightingale...

where is my lollipop Emma? ;-)

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:52 PM

Lost and gained?

The following was written by one woman in 1852 - there's a lollipop for anyone who recognizes the author :)

"Women are never supposed to have any occupation of sufficient importance not to be interrupted, except "suckling their fools"; and women themselves have accepted this, have written books to support it, and have trained themselves so as to consider whatever they do as not of such value to the world as others, but that they can throw it up at the first "claim of social life".

They have accustomed themselves to consider intellectual occupation as a merely selfish amusement, which it is their "duty" to give up for every trifler more selfish than themselves.

Women never have an half-hour in all their lives (except before and after anybody is up in the house) that they can call their own, without fear of offending or of hurting someone. Why do people sit up late, or, more rarely, get up so early? Not because the day is not long enough, but because they have "no time in the day to themselves".

The family? It is too narrow a field for the development of an immortal spirit, be that spirit male or female.

The family uses people, not for what they are, not for what they are intended to be, but for what it wants for - its own uses.

It thinks of them not as what God has made them, but as the something which it has arranged that they shall be.

This system dooms some minds to incurable infancy, others to silent misery"

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:46 PM

"I think what Lizzie is saying, is that by "getting where they are", women have perhaps lost more than they have gained?"

In recent discussions with friends some have suggested the very same thing. Especially when it comes to women's equality. It is an on-going process that will evolve I am sure and swing back toward the middle. To date all of them were men though. That is not to say no women would agree.

They need to keep what they have gained and build on getting back some of what they have lost maybe. I do not think it will go back to where women are being subservient to the men. Having independance does not make it compulsory to be foolish, I will go that far, but I still maintain that follishness should not be punished. We all know it often is but that will never make it right.

Bringing this thread full circle back to it roots though...

Even if all the women who now go out and get drunk and throw caution to the wind, as has been suggested, tidied up their act and stayed at home, there would be very little difference in the rape figures. Maybe the figures would go up.

Drunk, foolish, being silly... makes mo odds at all in the main as has been shown. Using it as a defence for the rapist should not be allowed

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:32 PM

I think what Lizzie is saying, is that by "getting where they are", women have perhaps lost more than they have gained?

If so, I tend to agree with her.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:23 PM

"Because Once Upon A Time, not only in The Land of Lizzie, women were far more feminine and they recognised that choosing a mate was perhaps far more what they wanted than sleeping around with every Tom, Dick and Harry's dick. Nature kinda gave us a protective instinct, it went along with motherhood, children, all that 'stuff' we got rid of in the Evolution of Women into Psuedo Men campaign."

Lizzie I have nothing against the old fashioned courtship, falling in love, marraige, children, grandchildren route. It's wonderful when it happens, as long as that is what both sides want, and it can be beautifully romantic. Nothing wrong with being 'old fashioned' either if that is what folks want.

But I doubt the above will go full circle. Some of the picture you paint will never return because women stopped buying into the idea of needing a man for financial support. They can still be extremely feminine - though I take your point about women acting like men and I have no like for that way either personally - and now lots of women want a career and not children. The ethic of "you have my babies and I'll make you my property, take your financial independence away and make you dependant on me so I can have sex when I want with you' has mostly passed by in the modern world. That is not making women men, It just means they have taken charge of their own lives and now enjoy the same independance that men enjoy if they so wish.

Those of us who believe in the old fashioned way still have no right to motalise on women's new found freedoms. We could have them oourselves if we so choose and they could have the old fashioned way if they wished it.

I think all we are seeing is a balance on both side of the gender divide. It does not mean women need to act like men. But it also does not mean that if a woman chooses to have her independance and have a free choice of sexual partner, just like men can have, that she should be judged for doing so.

I still think that a great many women who 'sleep around' are still actually seeking love in their own way. There are a lot of lonely people out there and long term relationships need a lot of work. I decry that more people do not stay together but I would not want to see a return of women being tied to their husband's demands and power under the law.

(This is not to say anything against men. I believe men have xhanged too of late, mostly, and maybe they do not want a return to the old ways. I cannot speak for them in any way).

This is just my opinion Lizzie, as you have yours, and whilst I find your life sounding so romantic I ask that it does not close your eyes to how women have got to where they are.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 05:15 PM

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:44 PM

...

I'm outta here now, as this is just going round and round in circles.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1 - PM
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

"Lizzie, what is your problem with women who set out to attract sexual partners?"...

Lizzie, you little teaser, you. There I was, thinking you really meant what you said at 01:44 and yet at 04:51 you come straight back. Well, sorry, but if you put yourself in this position then you must bear some of the blame.

FUCK OFF.

Sorry to all others who were affected by the bad language but surely you can see that by teasing me, taunting me and not really meaning what she said he must bear part of he blame:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

"Lizzie, what is your problem with women who set out to attract sexual partners?"

Nothing whatsoever, if that's what turns them on. I'm not a 'hunter' type. It doesn't turn me on, but heyho, that's just lil' ol' me who refuses to give in to this instant gratification syndrome, or be brainwashed into thinking that women now should ALL think like the worst types of misogynists, in that men are there purely and only for our sexual fulfillment and whatever else we do to them doesn't matter one iota.

I am not into rapists.
I am not into selfish, in yer face, women.
I am also not into the modern way of sexual life.

I grieve for Love, terribly.
I grieve for Personal Responsibility as well.

I think that encouraging women to behave more and more in a masculine way is wrong, actually, Richard.

Why?

Because Once Upon A Time, not only in The Land of Lizzie, women were far more feminine and they recognised that choosing a mate was perhaps far more what they wanted than sleeping around with every Tom, Dick and Harry's dick. Nature kinda gave us a protective instinct, it went along with motherhood, children, all that 'stuff' we got rid of in the Evolution of Women into Psuedo Men campaign.

I find the attitude of some women these days totally beyond my comprehension and just because I ain't frightened to come out and say that from the Moral High Ground doesn't make me a bad person, you know. Many people feel too bamboozled or threatened by the Feminists to dare to speak out, fearful of being labelled 'this' or 'that. Well, I've had so many bloody labels stuck on my forehead that another few don't matter....'cos none of them label me right anyway..

Yes, sometimes there is absolute sexual electricity between a man and a woman, and it's fantastic for both concerend, but I ain't the kind of woman who could live with myself if I was out there behaving like a rabbit every night of the week.

Geez! And THAT is freedom, for women???????

I'd far rather be a Happy Bunny, curled up around ONE man that I love with all my heart, having ONE relationship that is filled with love, sex and spirituality, rather than 'sex on demand' with no strings attached. For me, that is empty, hollow and sad. You want me, then you have the strings that go with me, or walk away.

Constant sex, without love, sounds to me more like a misogynist's dream. He gets the sex without any of the emotional stuff, no ties, no loyalty, no love, no nothing, other than orgasms on demand.

Nah, women have been duped, BIGTIME, trouble is, these days they're way too busy f*cking to f*cking well have worked it out yet.

But they will...

Things go full circle, they always do.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 04:00 PM

"In the real world, with real human beings in real circumstances, it is is very clear whether consent has been given or not."

ummmmm...NO!, sadly, it is just flatly, NOT always clear.

Lox..you are unfortunately missing my point. It is the same basic process in clarifying what constitutes 'consent' as in clarifying how to recognize the various formats of 'no'.
Consent or the denial of consent are simply not always clear & unambiguous...even to the one saying it!

Changing the word you use to label the problem does not change the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 03:17 PM

"Good grief...people are STILL posting as if the question of whether 'rape is ever justified' has not been answered."

I don't read that.

I read that the question of whether a victim is ever to blame is still up for discussion.

"All that is a real issue is 'what defines rape', and THAT is a muddled issue."


No it isn't.

the defining factor is consent.

In the real world, with real human beings in real circumstances, it is is very clear whether consent has been given or not.

Just try "getting it wrong" with your wife and see how well you are able to convince either yourself or her, and how far down the line you were able to get before you crossed the line.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:35 PM

Good grief...people are STILL posting as if the question of whether 'rape is ever justified' has not been answered.

Of course rape in never justified! All that is a real issue is 'what defines rape', and THAT is a muddled issue.

Some think it's simply a black/white definition of "any time the woman says NO'. But THAT becomes a matter of controversy. If it was a question of "would you like another chocolate-chip cookie?", it is easy to note various levels of 'NO', but I can easily write scenarios where NO is not clear & unambiguous.....and you can too!
IF you seriously want to define rape, you will have to figure out some way to differentiate quiet, mumbled 'no' from loud, serious NO!....and you must decide whether NO is required, or whether, "...oh, Johnny...I don't we should..." is enough, and decide whether, if she has allowed Johnny many times before, that 'NO' has the same status, and whether she got into bed with Johnny intending to have sex, but decided she was 'too tired' right now, or he had not showered in days and puts her off, or he insulted her sister at the crucial moment.....and 10 million other possible scenarios.

Now...note: I am not condoning anything:::

Yes...it is my opinion, that she...or HE..or any person, should be able to 'opt out' of ANY sexual encounter at ANY time!!

ANYONE should have, and in principle does have, the right to say the equivalent of 'NO' at any point. The real issue is, what level of ignoring various forms of 'NO' are serious enough to call it rape? THIS is why court cases become a matter of "he said/she said" and judges & juries hate to send some testosterone laden kid to jail for seemingly misreading the seriousness of her 'NO'...or whatever she actually said.

It is not a matter of stridently insisting that the principle is simple, the definition is clear, and the rules are universal....
What is needed is a way for society to define those rules as clearly as possible, and as I said 2 or 3 times above, educate kids of BOTH sexes about what the rules mean-- starting as soon as they are able to comprehend the issue.

Sexuality IS an enormously powerful force which does not lend itself easily to simplistic modern rules and legalistic overlays, but modern society does require that we do something to facilitate controls on 'natural urges' in order to protect (mostly) women from trauma, guilt, embarrassment, pain, and lingering problems about their own image....and more.

The issue is real, but we need to be very careful about deciding exactly what the issue actually is.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:25 PM

Lizzie, what is your problem with women who set out to attract sexual partners? What is your problem with women who are honest enough to accept (if they do) that they want sex? You persist in trying to attribute blame to them, whatever your choice of words.

If you have a problem with my words above, let me point out that an express refusal of consent negates any inference that might arise from prior words or conduct. The point at which a person becomes incapable of making a choice is the point at which they cease to be able effectively to consent.

If people drink enough to feel randy (it can have the opposite effect) it does not ipso facto affect their legal capability to consent to to deny consent. At the time.

Alcohol is a depressant. It depresses more superficial things first - like social inhibitions (which is one of many reasons people do drink alcohol). Your problem with this is?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lox
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:05 PM

MtheGM wrote:

"There may well be occasions when the woman did not actually resist the man's arousal techniques, did not verbally express reluctance, permitted penetration tho without active encouragement. Then, next day, regretted that the intercourse had occurred, remembered that she had, tho being somewhat passive, not actually given positive consent. And then been led by these regrets to make an accusation of rape on the grounds that she had not positively consented"

Ok - lets avoid a "kneejerk" reaction.

And examine this post one point at a time.

"There may well be occasions when the woman did not actually resist the man's arousal techniques,"

Arousal techniques? So he is arousing her.

In what way?

Kissing? Talking dirty? Manipulating her erogenous zones in some way?

Sounds like foreplay.

Not very rape like yet ...

but lets carry on.

"permitted penetration"

A-ha ... permission.

Another word for Permission would be "consent"

Still not very rape-like.

Then, next day, regretted that the intercourse had occurred.

Ok - regret.


well upon analyisis of your scenario, we see foreplay and permission featuring centrally.

So it wasn't rape but consensual sex.

Which the woman later regretted.


The fact that she later decided to sticth the guy up has nothing to do with this thread.

In other words, exactly what royston said.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 02:00 PM

AGGGGRRRRR ... sometimes i dispair!!! how many posts? and some people are still being stubborn!

i think i give up, at least for now!

take care and good luck for those with more staying power than me.
love
jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:59 PM

It is indeed going round in circles but we have seen many 'I'm outta here now' messages. I think you are just getting us all excited with these teasing little messages and then letting us down when you change your mind. The way some people behave gets them in all sorts of trouble.

...If you are NOT prepared to go all the way, but you lead a man into thinking you are, and then chaos ensues, you've been bloody stupid...

:-)

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:56 PM

"Well, if you fancy the pants of him, then you don't fancy him when you've got the pants OFF him, doesn't that show that you're more than a little shallow in the first place? I mean, shouldn't you get to know someone a litte more FIRST before you take their pants off?"

You are making the words fit your meaning Lizzie. Even long term stable relationships can go wrong in the bedroom (and other places). For the purpose of this conversation we are talking forced sex = rape and the fact that women have and should retaiun a choice to say no and withdraw consent at any stage with whoever they wish. The state of that relationship, ie one night stand or the first time they go for sex on the heneymoon, could still mean the woman says no. She has that right. To go past it is rape.

All this stable relationship long term loving stuff you favour is no better when it comes to rape. Women are no longer the property of their husbands and do not tell me that women in long term, so-called stable, relationships never used to get raped at will. Some still do regularly. Please stop taking the moral high ground because it is not what you would do. Be glad you have such a caring and loving relationship but never be so moral as to think rape could not happen to you.

It happens because rapists make it happen NOT because the victims ask for it in some way. And I repeat: Women (and men) must retain the right to be able to change their minds

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 01:44 PM

Well, if you fancy the pants of him, then you don't fancy him when you've got the pants OFF him, doesn't that show that you're more than a little shallow in the first place? I mean, shouldn't you get to know someone a litte more FIRST before you take their pants off?

This is where 'sex for sex sake' goes so wrong.

Yeah, I know, I'm horrendously old-fashioned.
Thank goodness.

And thank you to Little Hawk for bringing in some humour to this thread..'cos he sure did make me smile.


I'm outta here now, as this is just going round and round in circles.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

"If you are NOT prepared to go all the way, but you lead a man into thinking you are, and then chaos ensues, you've been bloody stupid."

Women, and men for that matter, must retain the right to be able to change their minds. They may fancy the pants off a guy, go to his place, then see the state of him when he undresses... anything! All sorts of reasons why women change their mind at the last minute.

A change of mind should not in any way mitigate him carrying on with his free will. Yes, it's unfair maybe on him, but with no malicious intent she is fully entitled to back out.

INHO

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:52 AM

Rape is never justified, and a rapist is a criminal no matter what the circumstances.

There are all sorts of things we can do to prevent being victims. Where common sense crosses over into silliness, I don't know, but I think modifying one's clothing is more in the realm of 'silly'. I really do believe that, when it comes to a rapist, being the target gender may be all that's required, or being a certain race, being a redhead or blonde, being plump, being thin, being dressed a certain way, being scared... ultimately, just being there.

I won't live my life in fear of something that should never happen in the first place. I will try to avoid risky situations: where I am and who I'm with.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

After having given it a great deal of thought...yes, I have agonized for DAYS over it!

I have decided that there are one or two cases where rape victims SHOULD take the blame.

Ahem!

1. When they have been raped by a toy poodle. These little dogs are lascivious and rapacious brutes, true, but they would get absolutely nowhere with their vile intentions if people didn't indulge them so! It's disgraceful how much leash some pet owners give them, and it must be stopped.

2. When they have been raped by a doorknob. Really, there's just no excuse for it. Anyone, after all, can just walk AWAY from a doorknob if they choose to!

And that's the extent of my comments on this no doubt worthy subject.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:48 AM

Apology accepted akenaton :-)

Where have I actually accused any one person, or claimed, that anyone suggested there is an excuse for rape? I have posited that there seems some thought that there are some circumstances that some people think that a person's actions deserve some guilt or responsibility for what ultimately happens them if they do get raped. I do NOT accept that as a premise. They can, as is their choice, but I do not and will not.

Indeed, it was me who first erected this thread because I found it repugnant that anyone should think a rape victim should carry some of the blame ever.

I have said though that there can never be an excsue for rape. I stand by that and if that idea is combined with what I say above I am aware it is pointing toward me suggesting that anyone disagreeing with it is almost excusing the crime.

In my humble opinion I do feel that if anyone suggest the victim must take some responisblity for what happens them then that is suggesting they are seen to be guilty of some blame for what happened. I totally disagree with that idea. Is that any clearer?

I am accusing no one person. I am against the route of suggesting blame.

Semantics aside, I hope this makes it more transparent

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:39 AM

Dave, you have to enquire a great deal in some forms of rape, to make sure that it was actually rape in the first place.

I am not talking about violent, pre-planned, pre-meditated, or opportunistic rape.   I am talking about whether a woman changes her mind after the event took place and then blames the man.

We have created a society that now says women bear no responsibility. Period. Under those circumstances, it is very easy for any woman to falsely accuse a man, because chances are she is the one who will be believed.

That is wrong. That is SO wrong that is almost unbelievable.

It is extraordinarily difficult to prove what took place between two people, when there were no witnesses.

My innocent friend was merely accused of molesting his young female pupil, who later withdrew that allegation, but it led to him hanging himself, because when mud is thrown, it so often sticks.   What happened to him should NEVER have happened, so if I come down a little on the man's side in the case of an innocent act occurring, you'll have to forgive me, because if more common sense had been used at the start of his troubles, if HIS side of the story had been believed, as instantly as hers was, he may not have ended up hanging from a tree!

I don't think that anyone has said that women ***DESERVE*** to be raped, in this thread.   I've stated over and over that it would be far better if women got back into their clothes, fashion-wise, and started behaving with a little more grace, respectability and common sense. But that in NO WAY excuses men who take advantage of that kind of situation.   

It just saddens me that if women went back to some self-discipline, less 'ladette' behaviour and used far more common sense and street awareness, then many such situations may not even happen in the first place, because the opportunistic rapist would never have the opportunity in the first place.

Far more self-restraint on EVERYONE'S part would be a good thing, rather than this modern day 'We can do WHATEVER we f*cking well want and don't you DARE preach to us otherwise!' society.

Yeah, OK, go out there drunk as skunks, fall over unconscious on the pavement, legs splayed open...but REALISE that you are putting yourself at terrible risk from some pretty nasty people out there...and whether you or I like it not, there ARE some horrendous people out there, always have been, always will be....

I was taught to be aware. I didn't really want to think the world wasn't always a nice place, but that's what many parents back then taught us. We were taught to be responsible..and it really was almost unheard of for women to go out in packs, drinking themselves senseless. There were no wine bars, no Happy Hours, no booze culture, no vast pressure to dress like sluts or behave that way....and you know many women, young women actually don't WANT to behave that way, but they are under HUGE pressure to do so.

Personally, I feel that womenn have never been so at risk as they are now...and it worries the shit out of me. It worries the shit out of me for THEIR sakes. And the longer this goes on, the worse it will become.

Tell me, what will today's youngsters tell their children? Will they warn them of the dangers of being drunk, night after night? Will they warn them of the danger of sleeping with strangers? I don't know, I really don't know.

Somewhere along the line, it has all gone so horribly wrong...and the Girl Power has actually led to a disempowering of women, in my eyes, because there is NO need for women to dress as some pervert's fantasy, is there? We educate them to do that from childhood, grooming them with their toys, books, films...Bratz dolls dressed like hookers (and no I do NOT believe that a hooker deserves to be raped, before you all have a go at me!) dolls that invite men, with pouting lips and chests stuck out like whores..I mean what the hell is that all about???????????

In my day, if a woman led a man on, and did so repeatedly, she was called 'a prick teaser' and frowned upon, by both men and women. Now that seems to have become the norm, with women thinking they really do have the right to do whatever they want to men, no matter how much they turn them on, wind them up.

They don't have that right, in my book.

If you are NOT prepared to go all the way, but you lead a man into thinking you are, and then chaos ensues, you've been bloody stupid.

As Bruce said way back though, stupidity is NOT a crime.

It is still the man's fault who crosses that line, but hell, come ON girls, stop behaving like that in the FIRST place, because it's bloody wrong, bloody unkind and...bloody stupid. Get some self-pride back, get some rules about how you want men to treat you with respect and then...treat THEM with that very same respect.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:31 AM

MP....You have an apology for my use of the "F" word. Although not directly aimed at you, it was uncalled for and your posts seem to contain no bad language.

The word was more of a sign of my frustration, that you continue to claim that some here are trying to excuse rape.

Please show me where on this thread ANYONE has said that.
Personally, I have denied that several times.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:17 AM

"I would like to hear from anyone who believes that rape can ever be justified. And if there is not any justification - Why even enquire into what the woman was wearing, where she was and whether she was drunk? "

RAPE can NEVER be justified, EVER

There should be no enquiry into what the woman was wearing nor if she had had a drink

The main factor has to be about consent, implied or otherwise, and withdrawal or resitance to that consent BEFORE the act. If she/he has said no then at that point anything going further has to be attempted rape or rape itself. I think that is the easy part.

Where the difficulties arise is when whole smokecreens and mists are rected by defences to try and discredit an already traumatised victim. Acquaintance rapes will also always have grey areas when one persons word against another is all you have. Where there is proof of some kind then it becomes more clear and easier to prosecute.

That the victim can be raped again by the defence, under the pretext that they have to do the best for their client, where there is strong proof their client is guilty, is quite dispicable.

But, in answer to your question: NO... rape can never be justified.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 11:02 AM

Oh - Unless it is just to make her feel even worse?

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:56 AM

Yes, it is everyones responsibility to keep themselves safe. And once again I ask if rape is suitable punishment for beeing foolish.

I would also like to go back to an earlier point I could have made a bit clearer.

A woman murders her husband because if he did not she would have to suffer a life of endless abuse and she was fearful of her own life. Mitigating circumstances.

A man robs a shop because he has no money and his children are starving. Mitgating circumstances.

A man forces a woman to have sex against her will because..? Are there ever any mitigating circumstances? If the man did not have sex with her would he die? Would his children starve?

I would like to hear from anyone who believes that rape can ever be justified. And if there is not any justification - Why even enquire into what the woman was wearing, where she was and whether she was drunk?

Why, in other words, does it matter whether the victim was being irresponsible or not?

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

we all take risks everday. life is risky, to not to do anything because of fear is irrational. we would never talk to anyone or go anywhere.

i understand those of you who judge, i do it too. we sit in front of the tv and say " haven't people learned yet" where money scams and getting into cars thinking they are taxis without checking are concerned. being judgmental is easy when you are not emotionally attatched to the person things have happened to.
this means that although i understand, i still do not agree with you that in part some people are responsible for things happening to them. yes we can all do things that keep us safe but returning to what i said at the start of this post, what sort of life would that be?
empathy is the key. i think at least. we don't always have to experiance something to feel for people.

anyway take care all
jade x x x x

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 10:22 AM

Of COURSE it's the woman's responsibility!
She left the house.
She got dressed and went outside, and so tempted a rapist looking for a victim in much the same way as a man would tempt an armed robber.

I came close a couple times. The worst time, I was wondering how I'd get back home if I had to kill him. I don't know if I would have, but this guy's thing was NOT physical strength. He'd also landed his plane on a deserted part of a lake, and there's no way he had a chance in the water.

I thought about the possibilities before I got in the plane with him, "Let's go for a ride in the plane. I'm going anyway, and you might enjoy it. Not interested in anything else." Well, he tried, I said no, he tried again, I said no, and it went on until I got away from him, hit the water and headed for the plane. It wasn't really very serious--more like Pepe LePeu and the pussycat, but it makes me wonder if he'd done it before with success. He had that place mapped out.

So maybe I was wrong to want to go for a plane ride with a guy I knew, who was respected in the local community. Maybe it would have been MY fault for trusting a fellow human.

It's safer to stay home and lock all the doors.
It's safer not to dress in anything sexy or pretty.
It's safer not to drink any alcohol, or dance, or flirt.
It's safer to gain a hundred extra pounds.
It's safer not to trust anyone.
It's safer not to look strangers in the eye, or talk to them.

It's safer, but maybe being that afraid is just a little bit like what happens to someone who actually has been raped.

'No' means 'no'.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:39 AM

addenda

I suppose it's my fault I got sworn at because I happened to be here on the thread and answered back in a way you do not agree with. That gives you permission to foul mouth me

I take respnsibility so you can leseen your obvious lack of trying to be on a thread and not swear at someone. I get the picture ;-)

Guilty m'lud! I was here. I deserved it

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:34 AM

I am of the opinion that we must trust Jeddy to be able to judge for herself what she does and who with.

I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:33 AM

akenaton I detest threads where people get personal and start calling each other names. I try my best to keep on topic and not allow personalities to play a part. What people do to each other on here has little to do with me save that it upsets me to see people fall out.

That said... I would appreciate you keeping a civil tongue in your head when you address me. I do not use foul language to make a point, as I have sufficient control over my tongue and respect for myself that I do not have to resort to it, and, as I have never sworn at anything that has issued from your postings I respectfully request you afford me the same. All swearing at me does is tell me the person I am speaking to has no dignity for thgemselves and no respect for me.

You are entitled to have no respect for me. You have no need to swear at me.

I asked a civil question. I expected a civil reply and found yours wanting in that department

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:26 AM

For fuck sake MP.....NOBODY is excusing the crime of rape!

What people are saying is that EVERYONE bears some responsibility for their actions.

In the case I cited the woman was not responsible for the rape, but in my opinion was responsible for getting herself into a situation where rape was likely to occur, or a legally grey area, in which it would simply be her word against his IF rape took place.

The crime is always wrong, but the cicumstances leading up to the crime, may be the responsibility of the victim.

It is the responsibility of everyone to keep themselves safe, whether it is avoiding being run over, or avoiding making things easy for the rapist.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:17 AM

"Hmm..... it seems the fundamentalists are being repulsed."

Who, what, where, when? Set alone the statement has no validity as there is no yardstick to measure it by

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

"I am NOT talking about women who are raped through no fault of their own, stone cold sober, innocently going about their daily business"

This statement still has a tinge of being responsible for being raped if one is not sober. Being drunk cannot - must not - be used and allowed to be used in mitigation for being raped. That shifts the onus of the crime back to the vitim. That is wrong.

The rapists decides to rape, no matter what state the victim is in, and the responsibility for the rape MUST lie with the rapist.

At least, that is what I think and, I suspect, a great many more people here.

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:57 AM

Hmm..... it seems the fundamentalists are being repulsed.

and I dont mean you Jeddy....that must have been a terrifying experience, I am truly sorry it happened to such a kind and open hearted girl....you know I wish the best for you ...A

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: jeddy
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:42 AM

M the MG, the senario you describe ( sorry if this wasn't you but someone else, my memory is not my strongest attributte) is clearly not rape. it is regret, i wish we haven't done that last night.
if no force has been used either phyisical, or by incapcitation. then it cannot be rape. consent doesn't always have to be verbal. even if she doesn't take the leading role, but makes things easier for him by willing opening her legs makes her a part of what is happening. regretting something then changing her mind after the fact, still does not change what it was at the time.
i HATE women who do that! they are dangerous, not only to the man/men in question but to those of us who have been raped or assulted.

i want to say thanks to mp and cs for their support and their understanding. it means alot to me!

i don't have to explain anything, in fact i didn't have to say anything at all. it saddens me to think that people will always blame the innocent. if not blame then certainly think well she was there, so in part she desrved it.
i have told you all the things i have, not for your sympathy, but understanding. not for me but for the other women this has happened to that cannot get over it, or who are still going through the trauma.

let me explain what happed straight after, it might explain how i think about it.

i was only llowed out once i was dressed, he took the key out of the front door. i raced to the nearest phone box to call the police, i arranged to meet them by some shops a few streets away.
while i was waiting, a van that looked like his, turned up, i ran, someone (i think it was HIM) started to chase me, so i ran.
i ended up banging on someones door, i saw lights on and the tv flickering. i ahve no idea what road it was or who there were. i was lucky! they were a decent couple who phoned the police for me.

now i look back, i see that was a really stupid thing to do, i was scared out of my wits and was very open to more abuse. however, had something else happened it still wouldn't have been my fault, just a scared girl, in the wrong place.
the fault is always with the person who forces someone.

as for trusting others men afterwards, i had one extremely bad experiance, but that didn't cancel out all the good men i knew. in fact as i was asleep, the man tried it on, but took no for an answer the first time i said it. i wanted comfort and to feel safe, he understood that and was really good after i turned him down, i was crying and he held me. i didn't do it again after that but that was by choice, not because i was scared to.
i hope that by telling you these things, you show more compassion to others.
most things in life are not black and white. in cases of violence, sexual assult and rape, the aggressor is always in the wrong.
for violence i am not talking one hit and walking away. but the sort that is on the news pretty much constantly.

if the things i have said have changed anyones mind, or made them think abit, then i am happy.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:35 AM

Oops....'compulsory'

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:34 AM

I agree, mp, jeddy doesn't have to answer. I wasn't meaning it in a cimpulsory sort of way, more kind of thinking out loud.

"Consent requires a state of mind. If a person is incapable of forming an intention then they cannot consent, but drunken consent is still consent."

Then.......is it not best for women to stop the out of control drinking and alcohol abuse that's happening at present? Or am I looking at this wrongly again.....

Does Richard's statement there, bearing in mind he's a lawyer, not scream out to women, and all those who care about them, that personal responsibity should be paramount in certain situations?

(And again, just to clarify, I am NOT talking about women who are raped through no fault of their own, stone cold sober, innocently going about their daily business)

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:23 AM

if you vote for the conservatives...

No issue with that, Richard, but I would substiture conservative with 'any of the bastards'. Trouble is, whoever you vote for, the government always get in:-( However, moving on...

Can someone explain to me this 'grey area' in terms of was consent given or not; was the victim raped or not and was the accused guilty or not. While I fully accept that circumstances may differ and there may be, in certain circumstances, mitigation I do not see how it fits in with rape. I can see that a murder may be commited in self defence or due to extreme fear. I can see how theft may be commited due to abject poverty. But in what circumstances is the desire to have sex life-threatening?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:13 AM

In general an intention can be inferred from action or inaction, but not conclusively, and subject of course to statute.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:12 AM

Consent requires a state of mind. If a person is incapable of forming an intention then they cannot consent, but drunken consent is still consent.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 08:09 AM

Thank you, mp. Royston I don't think your denial of the existence of such a thing as a 'grey area' will really stand up, you know. I still think your gloss on my scenario is a 'mind made up so don't confuse me' sort of reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:41 AM

Yes, not all of us act as though all men are potential rapists.

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:35 AM

Lizzie wrote "Do you mean that you have put yourself at risk of possibly the same thing happening to you again by putting yourself into that exact same situation once more, but with a different person?"

I am of the opinion that we must trust Jeddy to be able to judge for herself what she does and who with. What happened her was terrible but she needs to pick up the pieces and get on with life. Seems to me that is what she has done. Allowing what happened her to stop her staying with friends and having a social life actually allows the power to stay with the rapist. By getting on with it and returning to her normal routines she is effectively lessening his effects, and therfore power, over her. She is to be commended. I am not sure I could do the same.

I would liken it to someone who has had a bad crash in a car on ice. Does that mean they should never ever get in a car again and drive when it is icy?

Jeddy got back in the saddle, it sounds like, and I think she has done well to do so. How brave and empowering I hope it is for her. She trusted someone Lizzie who let her down. She got raped by the betrayal of that trust.

How marvellous that she can still treat people with trust and get on with her life. She should not have to answer nor justify her continuance in normal life in my opinion

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: mauvepink
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:25 AM

I have not denied there being possible grey areas in some scenarios. Most are extremely worrisome, for both parties, given the scenario you make MtheGM.

Personally, while I can see that she has not positively consented, she made no attempts at resistance either. How would the man have any clue without always asking, is it now okay for us to proceed to penetration? What a passion killer that would be, albeit a sensible request.

Very often people will be in a situation where no sex is the purpose of a kiss and a cuddle. But with that comes the lighted fires of passion for both and they progress. Things happen and go forward and, with no actual requests to have sex, they proceed to have intercourse. No implicit permissions have been given by either party. They werr both agreeable to it continuing by their very own actions. No resistance from either. If she later thinks "Wait a moment, he never actually asked me if I wanted that, so ikt must be rape" I think she is wrong. I do not think him a rapist either.

With no force or no refusal how can it be rape? This suggests that rape may not just be about consent per se, but also showing some actual refusal to having sex. One could argue if she dos not say no and is a willing party to the sex then that is the case. A retro "I never gave permission even though I enjoyed it and wanted it" would not be rape I think.

Of course each individual case is different and each has to be taken on merit. But in your scenario, given she was a willing party and only after some thought remembered she gave no actual consent, he has not raperd her. How could he know? The only thing that would stop that is to make it law to ask immediately before penetration... is it okay to proceed?

Even then you will get cases where she wants him to stop. If she states that and he carries on, then it is rape. But retroactive accusations of willing parties I suspect the courst would stay clear of.

Acquaintance rapes must come in all sorts of situations. There are massive grey areas I think. But the charge of rape, while not fully bound on consent, would then at least have to rely on sone refusal. Refusal then invokes the removal of any possible consent so it would not have to be said.

My head hurts...

mp

Subject: RE: BS: 'Some rape victims should take blame'- ??
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 21 Feb 10 - 07:16 AM

"now apart from trusting the wrong person, by getting into bed, to sleep, which i have done before and since. what happened was NOT my fault!"

jeddy, I'm a little confused.

Do you mean that you have put yourself at risk of possibly the same thing happening to you again by putting yourself into that exact same situation once more, but with a different person?

Please don't misunderstand me, I am in no way blaming you for what happened originally, but I'm just concerned as to why you may be willing to risk it happening again.

If I have misunderstood what you meant there, then I apologise.