BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 04:36 PM

"Does 10% of Arabs sound proportionate?"
"...12 Arabs in the Knesset is a laughably insignificant basis for your argument."
both GuestTroubador

As I do not worship at the Mammon of Proportionality, which you seem to do, your comments, above, carry no weight with me. Almost certainly the twelve Knesset members are far more, both actually or proportionately, than Jews in the whole of the Moslem worlds governing bodies.

Proportionality as a mantra is about sixty years old...at least here in the US. It has done far more damage than good, here, both civilly and politically. Probably elsewhere as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 05:15 PM

GregF-
"...but he was only being ironic and sarcastic. I guess I'll have to read between the lines... "quoting moi
"It might help, John, if you also looked up "context".

You know my friend, posting on the internet is not like having a conversation. Context is difficult, especially when writing for others a one sentence post. One cannot 'hear' your tone of voice; one cannot see the twinkle in your baby blues that you're having your way with them; nor can one see your hooded eyes showing anger or contempt. And one cannot see your sneer or subtle smile as you write. The use of emoticons usually mean the opposite of what they seem to imply, in my expeerience.

However, you have admitted to the use of irony and sarcasm, and that now becomes my default reading of your posts. It is up to you to convince me otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 05:27 PM

What should I hold them accountable for, Greg? For the fact that the Palestinians have refused every offer of a state by the Israelis and have never ever given a counter-offer? Let's go over them shall we.

They refused a state in 1947. They tried to destroy Israel in 1967 (before the so-called occupation), and then right after the war issued the three nos; no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, no negotiations with it. They went to war again in 1973. Then, they turned down a state in 2000 at Camp David. Even the Saudi foreign minister was shocked that Arafat turned down the offer. Then, they turned down an offer in 2001, and in 2008 they didn`t even answer Olmert`s offer for a state.

So is that what I should hold them accountable for Greg? For the intransigence of the Palestinian so-called leadership? Who keep their citizens in refugee camps for decades and use them as pawns to play on Jew hatred to get billions in aid with which to enrich themselves and their cronies and to buy weapons and rockets with which to attack Israeli citizens. No Greg, I hold the so-called Palestinian "leadership" accountable for the plight of the Palestinian people, YMMV.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:15 PM

the twelve Knesset members are far more, both actually or proportionately, than Jews in the whole of the Moslem worlds governing bodies.

And you have evidence to prove this, I suppose?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:17 PM

What should I hold them accountable for, Greg?

Q.E.D., Boo -

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:32 PM

Greg, F.O.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 08:47 AM

As I understand it, many peace proposals that were made to Israel by Palestinian leaders were summarily rejected. As to the old bromide about "destroying Israel", this is just mythology.
What was attempting to be destroyed was the monolithic occupation and the unacceptable conditions given by Israel to pacify Palestinians.

Again, the conflict between Islam and Judaism plays a major role here.

The proof that honest brokerage of peaceful terms is nullified is the continued use of violence by Israel and the disproportionate reaction by the poor Palestinians.

Rock throwing is not comparable to phosphor bombs or home demolition by bulldozers

As evidenced by the continued housing developments, Israel would like to dominate any Palestinian attempt at autonomy.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 12:22 PM

Query: And you have evidence to prove this, I suppose?

Ans: Greg, F.O.

Translation: No evidence, its bullshit.

Another Q.E.D., it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 01:08 PM

Dear GregF., you may expect that answer from me every time I deem your comment or your response to mine as un-serious as was your asking for proof. My comment needed no proof as it was not stated as a fact, but as an opinion. Also as one who chastised me to look for context, you took mine out of context by not quoting the entire sentence. Often when you are presented with facts, you don't counter them with other facts; you dismiss them as being from a source you don't like (and, no, I am not going to research your posts to find specific instances), or you demean person providing the facts. If you disagree with my opinion of Jews Moslem governments, I invite you to show me how that opinion is wrong...it might be, but I doubt it.
You and others who post like you may expect that response in the future.

Finally, I did not mean to post that order to you. I was still groggy from a nap when I read your post. I actually wrote F.O. with the intention of erasing it, just wanting to get it out of my system. I accidentally hit submit, and could not get it back. Perhaps subliminally it was not so accidental, and I have decided to stand by that post.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 01:44 PM

My comment needed no proof as it was not stated as a fact, but as an opinion.

Yup. An ostensibly UNSUBSTANTIATED & apparently UNINFORMED opinion, i.e. bullshit.

accidentally hit submit

Yeah, right.

you may expect that answer from me every time I deem your comment or your response to mine as un-serious as was your asking for proof.

Knock yourself out. But I was deadly serious about asking for proof:
of which you offer none. See 22 Jun 14 - 12:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:07 AM

In terms of aid the "Palestinians" have been given four times as much as the total aid given under the Marshal Plan which rebuilt a Europe ravished by five years of total all out war - What have the Arabs of Palestine managed to achieve with it -S.F.A.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:48 AM

So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 10:44 AM

So, the Palestinian Territories received 88.8% of the total (UK) regional aid. While (Northern) Sudan received absolutely nothing. (Southern Sudan is listed separately in the Africa region)

Other nations more impoverished in the region than the West Bank and Gaza, according to the CIA fact book, which received no aid include Yemen and Chad.

More broadly, looking at the West Bank alone, The Palestinian Authority's Human Development Index – a measure of life expectancy, literacy, education and standards - is 97th out of 193 countries in the world, which places them ahead of Egypt, Syria and Morocco.

And, of course, this doesn't include additional international aid which the Palestinians receive annually.

Here are the top ten donors, listed in U.S. dollars:

U.S.: $667 million

EU: $600 million

UNRWA: $476 million

Arab countries combined: $110 million

Norway: $108 million

Spain: $101 million

Germany $89 million

UK: $82 million

France: $77 million

Sweden $69 million

Total: Over $2.3 billion

In comparison, in 2009, Israel received less than $2.38 billion (all in military aid), all of which was from the U.S.

So, the Palestinian Territories (population 4.043 million), receive more economic aid per capita from the world than military aid received by Israel, population 7.7 million, from the U.S.

Finally, it's important to note that Israel is pro-West, and a strong U.S. ally, while the Palestinians are, based on annual public opinion polls, (even under the Obama Administration) overwhelmingly anti-American.

These facts would seem, at the very least, worth noting in the context of the continuing drum beat of accusations by anti-Zionists regarding U.S. aid to Israel.

Source CIA Factbook.
http://cifwatch.com/2011/10/05/guardian-graph-on-uk-foreign-aid-shows-palestinians-receive-bulk-of-funding-sudan-received-nothin

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 11:39 AM

"So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?"

This is an example of a question that is both demeaning and unserious.
It is put out there to try to implant an equivalence between Palestinian and Israeli aid hoping that no one will actually care to consider it.

I hope Greg F. is not a lawyer. The first rule is never to ask a question one doesn't know the answer to--or in this case probably knows the answer to and hopes to skate on.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 12:42 PM

I'm entirely serious, John. Do you have the answer for us?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 01:22 PM

"to try to implant an equivalence"

BINGO JotSC.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:20 PM

Actually I do have one that satisfies me. You can read it, too, at 10:44AM today.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:46 PM

Actually I do have one that satisfies me.

That's unfortunate, since that post does not answer the question.

...implant an equivalence...

Funny you don't get on your high horse when FW Keith & BooBad do this; its their stock & trade.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:47 PM

Greg, does my answer not suffice?
"So, the Palestinian Territories (population 4.043 million), receive more economic aid per capita from the world than military aid received by Israel, population 7.7 million, from the U.S."

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 02:57 PM

Sigh. For the reading and comprehension challenged FWs:

** That's only statistics for a single year, not the total that T-bird is talking about.

** T-Bird wasn't talking aid "per capita" and neither am I.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:04 PM

That was a typical year so a good indicator of the total.
Per capita is a fair means of making a comparison.
The total figures are there if you prefer.

Are you going to produce anything at all Greg?
Of course not.
Just abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:42 PM

That was a typical year so a good indicator of the total.

Your evidence that it was a "typical year" is... what? Your opinion?

Per capita is a fair means of making a comparison.

That may be your opinion, but that's all it is. T-Bird was not talking "per capita" or a single year.

AND that still doesn't answer the question.

The total figures are there if you prefer.

Yes they are, BUT that still doesn't answer the question.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 05:30 PM

There was nothing special or different about that year.
Unless you know better Greg?
Tell us.

Per capita is a standard way of making comparisons.
No evidence needed because everyone except you knows that Greg.

It does answer the your question "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" Greg.
You have both amounts.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:07 PM

As you have confidence in the per capita figure Keith, perhaps you could explain what the weighting is and how this affects your confidence?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:15 PM

The same old reading comprehension problem raises its head again, FW.

The question was not "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel".

The question To T-Bird was: "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period? [emphasis added as an aid to morons and their fellow travellers]

Also, why don't you let T-Bird answer for himself instead of smearing your usual shite all over this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 06:46 PM

I'm in wonderment that anyone is taking Greg F. or Muscat seriously in this latest discussion.

Keith provided a source for comparing aid to Palestine and Israel. If Greg F. does not agree with that source, or finds it does cover the area he is writing about, then it is incumbent on him to find a source that does, and present it. It is not up to Keith to look for other sources for Greg F. which he [GF] will likely still not approve of.

I don't know Keith, his educational background, nor what he does/did for a living. Muscat evidently thinks he is/was a statistical analyst. It seems to me that this is just a way of trying to refute that document by overburdening the presenter. Sort of like paying a largish debt with quarters (US 25 cent coin) so that the lender must waste time counting thousands of coins.

Get real guys!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 08:08 PM

So I guess you can't read either, eh John? Or are you just taking the mickey?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 09:08 PM

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Same old same old.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:52 AM

Musket, the weighting is simple.
The amount per person.
That is what per capita means.
Greg, it was a typical year so representative of ANY period.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:39 AM

John. Why should I take a weird foreigner seriously for that matter?

Keith. Per capita is how you state it, correct. Per capita when applied must have a weighting to make it relevant to the index. Try Orwell's assertion that some pigs are more equal than others for starters. Then look at how Israel' version of ONS do it for just about every situation.

Not that reality ever stopped your staunch assertion that if you read it somewhere everyone else is wrong....

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

Greg's question is answered.
However much you squirm and obfuscate, the answer is clear.
You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 03:54 AM

"I'm in wonderment that anyone is taking Greg F. or Muscat seriously in this latest discussion." John Sunset

.,,.

As I think you know, John, I have solved the problem, & vastly increased my contentment & existential satisfaction, by simply not reading any posts from either of those two nasty-minded fools. It's easy; just need to be a bit strong-minded -- much easier than giving up smoking was, 40 years ago. So I really don't know what they are on about, regarding me or anything else. Poor old Musky-buttox might still be going on with his interminable oh-so-hilarious cracks about my nurse & my cooking sherry or whevs; or he might just have got the message that, whoever is reading such facetious pathetic fatuities, it isn't me, and given up on them.

But the really delightful thing, from my POV, is that I just don't know; and care even less. A blissful state of incognisance and insouciance, believe me. If there is anyone on this forum who really gets on your tits, my advice is simply to boycott their posts ···

··· & game over!

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 04:00 AM

As a watchword, I make no apology for quoting yet again the incomparable Jane Austen, one of whose wonderfully principled & strong-minded characters, Elinor Dashwood in Sense & Sensibility made no reply to a fool who was on at her, "as she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition."

That's what those two and their like don't deserve indeed. Couldn't have put it any better myself!

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM

Palestinian spokesman Ahmad Assaf rips the veil off of Hamas' thuggery:

"In the past seven years Hamas has destroyed Gaza."

"Who are you trying to fool? Do you think people are that stupid! Do you think they are blind?!"

He obviously doesn't read Mudcat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tssXnzdHwRc

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 12:38 PM

Greg's question is answered.

Perhaps in your idiosyncratic world, FW, but not in the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 01:54 PM

It does answer the your question "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" Greg.
You have the amounts given to each in a typical year.
Thank you would be nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 05:13 PM

One last time, fuckwit: "how does that compare with the aid given to Israel" IS NOT MY QUESTION! Go back and read the fucking thing posted twice, second time solely for your benefit.

Idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 01:40 AM

The question asked by Greg F was as follows:

" how does that{Aid given to the Palestinians} compare with the aid given to Israel during the same period?"

John on the Sunset Coast is perfectly correct in his statement about this question as it is carefully crafted to deflect from the point being made. Here is what I originally posted:

"In terms of aid, the "Palestinians" have been given four times as much as the total aid given under the Marshal Plan which rebuilt a Europe ravished by five years of total all out war - What have the Arabs of Palestine managed to achieve with it -S.F.A.

IF Greg F had been asking a question that compared apples with apples his question would have been:

"So T-Bird: how does that compare with the aid given to Israel, and what they have achieved with it during the same period?"

Should he ask that question he will get an answer.

"Palestinian" Refugees on "Palestinian" land - WHY?

Yasser Arafat, the man who invented the "Palestinians", the man who attempted to pass himself off as a "Palestinian" refugee, the "leader" of the "Palestinian People" - died a multi-millionaire - where did his money come from? And why have the "Palestinians" still not been able to find it? (Arafat embezzled billions from the self same "Palestinians" he was supposed to be "leading")

Mahmoud Abbas the new "Leader" of the "Palestinian People" also a multi-millionaire (estimated worth US$100 million), money he is suspected of acquiring by systematic embezzlement of public funds.

Now then Greg F it seems that being "Leader" of the "Palestinian People" is a licence to "Print Money" and make a fortune - What do the "Palestinian People" get out of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:32 AM

Yet, despite uniting with Hamas, the PA will still apparently be receiving generous financing from the U.S., Canada and Europe.

The UK, with the best of intentions, offers an average of $135 million a year to the PA for development; nonetheless, the Guardian newspaper reported that the money, always fungible, was instead being used by the PA to finance terrorist imprisoned in Israeli jails -- thus inadvertently financing more terrorism.

In addition, it is no secret that the PA officials have been stealing hundreds of millions of dollars of the aid money intended to improve the livelihoods of my people, the Palestinians, with no sign that Western aid to the PA ever filters down to the Palestinian public.

Instead of financing the PA leaders' lavish lifestyles, the world might finally start questioning the PA's institutionalized incitement of terror and hatred to my people which they relay daily through media, education and the religious institutions.

Ever since the PA came into existence, it has been keen to mass-produce and institutionalize the hatred of Jews and also the West. With their government-controlled TV shows that teach children how to kill Jews, and textbooks that preach hatred for Israel, the PA and Hamas are directly and fully responsible for each and every terror act committed by Palestinians, including the kidnapping of the three teenagers.

Mudar Zahran

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 08:55 AM

Nice tap-dancing, T-Bird, but that's TWO questions, and you still haven't answered either of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:11 AM

Greg, you have been given a comparison of the aid over a random period within that of your question.
Why is that not acceptable?
What have you provided?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

Why is that not acceptable?

Quit simply, FW, because it doesn't address or answer the question as asked.

Got it now?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:25 AM

Why is it not statistically valid to sample a period within the period of interest?

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:09 AM

I give up, FW. None so blind, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:13 AM

You can't reply.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:28 AM

No, FW, I just don't care to become involved in your two-year-old toddler's game of "Why, Mummy??"

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:49 AM

You could just explain why is it not statistically valid to sample a period within the period of interest?
I say it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:27 AM

"Nice tap-dancing, T-Bird..."
Hahahaha. That was written with a straight face by the Eleanor Powell of Mudcat?! [In case the name is not familiar to you, Greg F., I refer you to imdb.com or wikipedia; type in Eleanor Powell.]

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 12:13 PM

More likely Bill Robinson, John.

Subject: RE: BS: Small hope for Israel/Palestine
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:06 PM

Robinson was excellent, too. So all right. I chose Ms Powell because many consider her to be the best movie tap dancer of all time.