BS: Why you don't like gay marriage

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:32 AM

kat, I am not making assumptions. I am speaking from my own personal experiences.

It may please you to know that I am just as "bisexual", "lesbigay" and into "self-gratification" as you or anyone else. I highly suspect that if human beings were left to their own devices, and not assailed from birth onwards with homophobic bigotry, the great majority of us would freely experiment with bisexuality.   And of these "experimenters" a few would choose make it their full-time mode d'etre, a few would make it part-time, and some would move on to other forms of sexual expression.

I chose not to physically engage in a bisexual lifestyle a few years after I hit puberty though, for what I consider to be excellent personal and social reasons. That was a very easy choice to make, for me. And as far as I know, that choice has done me no harm whatsoever.

If my sons knew anything about this, I'm sure they'd be most grateful. They had more than enough to cope with as it was.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:42 AM

Ebbie, I certainly would not choose to raise your (or anyone else's) kids either. Mine own are more than enough, thanks.

At least we agree on this!

straightbypersonalchoiceandoutoftheclosethereontheCat(hopefullyforthegreatestgoodofall)daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 12:51 PM

Hmmm. Well, I was never inclined toward sex with other males, although I remember having a vague sort of attraction toward certain such individuals back when I was maybe 14 or something like that. Basically, though, it was females I was interested in enough to do anything about it, and that has not changed.

Here's a little story that some may find interesting. When I was in college back in the 70's there was a fellow student I shall name "John". John was a bit of an oddball. He was extremely chatty, hyperactive, a bit fussy, very outspoken, and loved yakking with the girls endlessly. It was assumed he was flirting with them in some way, but he never actually got involved with any. Now in this college, there was a great deal of gaybashing on the part of most of the young men. It was a pretty standard thing. Why? Well, they learn it from their parents and their peers, and besides, I think they're subconsciously terrified that they themselves might have such tendencies.

Anyway, the thing most noticeable about John was his constant desire for attention. He ran for student council. He chaired meetings. He joined clubs and tried to be the leader. He tried to get people's attention any way he possibly could. When he ran for student council he put up a poster that was so absolutely enormous that I can't even figure how they got it up there on the side of one of the campus buildings.

Despite all this, John lost the election. This may have been because a lot of people found his compulsive nature a bit disturbing.

About 2/3 of the way through the year, John decided to "come out" about his homosexuality. He wrote an open letter to the school paper, and put up posters to let everyone know. Well, John had finally succeeded in getting the level of attention he wanted!

Those who were of a liberal persuasion, and wanted to show what good liberals they really were, rushed forward to congratulate John on his courage and assured him of their support.

Those who were stunned and horrified gathered in little groups, and muttered darkly about it, wondering if they should take some sort of violent action against the "fag" (their word, not mine).

When John would enter the cafeteria, the tension would simply ripple through the place.

And those who basically didn't care much one way or the other (like me) shrugged and went on with life as before. John was still John, and what difference did it really make whether he was gay or not?

For almost a month people obsessed about John being gay. It was bizarre. John, as far as I could see, was in 7th heaven. He was finally getting what he wanted. He was glowing. He found a boyfriend, and the two of them would enter the cafeteria gloriously, drawing glowering glances from the gay-hating contingent.

Well, after that month passed everything sort of died down. People stopped talking about it, started worrying about the Stanley Cup or something, and it became "yesterday's news". John was soon getting no more attention than he had been getting before, and no one was bothering him, threatening him, or congratulating him. He was no longer a hero or a goat, he was just John.

John got very depressed and about two months later he tried to kill himself by slitting his wrists. He did not succeed, but was hospitalized.

This story is not my comment on gays in general, it is not my evaluation of the gay choice or lifestyle, but it may serve to demonstrate why certain people become obsessed with a specific social issue and are in everyone else's face about it all the time, demanding a response. It's not because they are seeking justice...it's because they have a psychological problem of some kind and they are acting it out through a politically convenient issue. John was one of those people. It doesn't matter one way or another to me that he was gay, it matters to me that he was disturbed.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:23 PM

Little Hawk, that's very insightful.

I also think there's a tendency of people to not try very hard to understand someone else and just go straight to demonizing them and calling them 'bigots'. Like the heterosexual person who, at some time in his or her life, was attracted to someone of the same sex and is scared of connecting with that side of themselves, a person may not want to 'walk a mile' in someone else's shoes in a discussion of this sort because they may find, that while they don't like the way the shoes look, and find them uncomfortable, they can actually wear them. I've never really seen the harm in trying though. Trying to understand a person is not the same as trying or wanting to be like them.

Kids who grow up being beaten by their parents are often surprised to find out that it isn't 'normal' and that other kids' parents don't give them the occasional black eye or punch mommy in the stomach when she doesn't have dinner ready on time. We base our opinions about people, and our stereotypes on what people around us think AND our own experiences. There's far more out there than what our friends think and what we've personally experienced, so maybe learning the facts and listening to different people is a good idea, whether they support or contradict our ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:41 PM

What's the difference between being raised in a foster home where the family cares only about the money they get for taking me in, and being raised by people who (very possibly) care more about their personal self-gratification than any "horrid" effects the exercise of their new-found "righta to parenthood" will (most likely) inflict on me?

Katlaughing answered most of this pretty thoroughly a few posts back. But there are some other unfair assumptions in that statement also. Mature healthy adults as a rule keep their sexual activity private. Gay or straight. It's naive (or paranoid?) to assume that with gay couples it's "all sex all the time" or sex is somehow in-your-face if you're in their company at home. (The closest you might come close to accurate with that kind of generalization is when considering high school and college age people, regardless of gender or orientation--but even there, it's more like wishful thinking! Maturity is the solution to this situation.)

The sexual-gratification-at-any-cost issue comes in when you're if you're layering in questions of mental health problems, the catch-all term "devience" and the still not-well-understood "sex addiction." Those are separate issues affecting what is certainly a small percentage of straights and gays.

Studies have shown that humans past a certain youthful period in their lives think about sex a lot. But that doesn't mean the thought is acted upon every time it occurs. Gay or straight or bisexual.

Finally, we have all heard stories about foster homes from hell. But most of them are good places and are the homes of people who truly want to help children. Most of them spend money out of their own pockets above and beyond any reimbursement the state makes to cover the expenses of caring for each child. This was the conclusion my mother, an MSW, reached with the many foster families she worked with over the years in the Aid for Dependent Children program with the state where she worked.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Cluin
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:58 PM

Debate the issue forever if you like.

It's still going to be accepted legally and socially eventually. People better learn to deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 02:45 PM

Now, unless I missed it somewhere, here is an important point that no one seems to have considered: a pretty large number of children are accidents. It isn't necessarily that they are not wanted, but all too frequently they are not wanted now. And sometimes they are not wanted at all, and there are occasions where the resulting resentment by one or more of the parents leads to child and/or spousal abuse. Not a nice atmosphere to grow up in.

When a gay or lesbian couple adopt a child, it's not an accident. You can be sure that the child will grow up in a home where he or she is wanted.

Don Firth

P. S.:   Now, I'm quite sure that there is someone around who will try to do a raunchy play on the word "wanted," but that, I think, is that person's idea, not the idea or intent of the gay or Lesbian couple.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 03:43 PM

Stilly, where do you see that katlaughing "answered" any of the quote above? The quote is not a question. It does not require an "answer". Nor is it an "assumption", as kat postulates.

It is a statement; a (grim) hypothetical situation depicting a homosexual "family" created in response to Two Bear's (grim) hypothetical situation depicting a foster home. And it is, unfortunately, a hypothetical situation formed of a lifetime of personal experience.

Sexual self-gratification is not the only form of self-gratification, Stilly. The gratification of the personal, innate biological urges toward reproduction, of "environmental" urges toward the personal / social benefits and status of parenthood -- these are examples of other forms of self-gratification.

Please understand that the hypothetical situation created in response to Two Bears post portrays these "parental", not to be confused with sexual, forms of self-gratification:

... being raised by people who (very possibly) care more about their personal self-gratification than any "horrid" effects the exercise of their new-found "right" to parenthood will (most likely) inflict on me?

What these hypothetical parents might hypothetically do / not do in their hypothetically gratifying /ungratifying hypothetical beds is a moot point and of no interest, to me anyway.

Jeri and LH, thank you very much for your insights.

daylia


PS Here's another example of non-sexual self-gratification



moooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot!



Ahhhhhhh   ....    gotta light?    :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 04:28 PM

As this discussion is getting nowhere, I had decided to move on.

However,I have just watched part of a TV show, which involves a group of homo sexuals who comment on the (poor In their opinion) dress sense and appearance of "Straight" men.
The point of the programme is apparently to show that the homosexuals have an artistic eye for dress and hairstyles, while straight people a basically slobs.
I find this type of programme patronising in the extreme, and is an example of what I mean when I say there is an agenda behind this "gay culture".
If this was a programme showing a group of straight people criticising homo sexuals for being camp or limp wristed, the PC legions on Mudcat would be screaming blue murder.

The name of the show is "Queer eye for the straight guy".   I believe there is also an American version of the show.
   No wriggling please ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 04:32 PM

Don, that is a very good point.

My question is, do people's personal "wants" and "urges" toward parental forms of self-gratification outweigh the heavy and very real emotional, psychological, social and physical costs to children of "growing up gay" in ANY way, in this culture today?

Is it justifiable to inflict those costs on children, when you could "just say no" - at least to the adoption question?

Denying or minimizing the gay "price tag" may help some of you feel better, but in reality it is highly irresponsible and benefits no one.

Cluin, you're right. There's really no point in belabouring the issue. It's happening, right now - and will continue to happen no matter what any of us say or do or think. So I guess I better just buck up and get used to it. :-(


daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 04:45 PM

Oops, that quote IS a question after all! Pardon me, Stilly, and "answer" away.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:01 PM

Tried to post this a couple of hours ago...trying again:

daylia, you posted:

I think I understand exactly how such parental "wanna-bes" would feel. If I were a lesbian for example, and stuck with the fact that I couldn't have kids the natural way, I might be thinking something like "NOT FAIR! WHAT AN UNENLIGHTENED, IDIOTIC, "MOOT" BIGOT NATURE IS! It's so good there's all this new technology, all these orphaned unwanted babies and politically correct bandstanders out there these days - now I can still get exactly what I THINK I want!

I know any kid I'd procure has a 99% chance of enduring a lifetime of psychological difficulties and social abuse, possibly even physical violence because of me and my lifestyle. But lots of gays, blacks, Jews etc pay that price - so what? The kid might even end up committing suicide if it can't handle the pressures of having me as a parent. WHo cares? Lots of kids blow themselves away anyhow.

I want it, that's what's most important. I'm gonna "LOOOOOOVE" it so much and be so very "kind" and "respectful" to it! Wife beaters, child abusers, pedophiles, drunks, crack addicts etc have kids, therefore so can I. I'm gonna get exactly what I want, right now, and no one can take that right away from me."

You later say that hypothetical situation is based on a lifetime of experience. It seems it has been a very narrow experience, judging from my own lifetime of experience. I have never known any lesbians who have "thought" that way about wanting a child or not.

Cluin...right on!

Ake: Lighten up a little, willya? **bg** Queer Eye for the Straight Guy is an American tv show and it is all tongue-in-cheek. The gays camp it up for the fun of it. The straight guys sign up for it, obviously enjoy it and are in the mighty majority, so it is not seen as threatening. And, it has helped to break down some barriers for straight guys in liberating them to openly care about their personal appearance, including facial, hair, and nail care without seeming *swishy!*

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:19 PM

Well, daylia, I reiterate a point that I made earlier about the fellows I know who adopted the two kids from the Chinese orphanage. No matter what psychological problems the boys may develop because they have two fathers instead of a mother and a father (and that remains to be established), they are certainly much better life now than they would have if they'd been left in the orphanage.

Their two fathers make sure the boys have plenty of association with women both in the home and outside, and they're fully aware of the problems the boys may face from outside the family, and are perfectly capable of teaching the boys how to cope with them. I believe that the main source of any potential psychological problems would ultimately be caused by people outside the family who "view with alarm," from kids who have learned bigotry from their parents, and those elements of society that feel they have a right to meddle in other peoples' lives.

Years ago, a friend of mine responded to a racist's argument, "Would you want your daughter to marry one!??" by saying, "No, not as long as she and her husband would be persecuted by bigots like you." The problem, of course, is not an interracial marriage—or a child having two parents of the same gender—the problem is the bigot, the meddler, and the opinionated.

The boys have a good home and loving parents. There are millions of children in this world who should be so lucky.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 07:35 PM

Oh, yes! And re:   Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, Barbara and I have watched the show a couple of times. It's notable that the straight guys start out looking pretty slobby, but when the gays get finished with them, there is a huge improvement in their appearance. It's not because gays have an inherently better style sense, it's because many gays tend to pay more attention to style, whereas many straight guys have all the style sense of a Visigoth after a long, hard day of pillaging.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 14 Aug 04 - 10:51 PM

Akenaton, seriously, I think that's just a pop-culture fad that probably has the same agenda as any other, to be watched, to be talked about, to be the happening thing. I'm not sure gays conceived it produced it or care if they did or not, I don't get around to watching it. Ellen Degeneres probably sparked the trend, and t.v. execs play it out til it's very very tired, like anything else they do. What's the agenda behind big doofus guys married to cute smart women in sit-coms? What's the agenda behind pro-wrestling? It's just t.v. I think.

I really can't muster much opinion on this, but I find it interesting how much feeling there is, and enjoy the posts. Anybody can challenge the logic of people's feelings, like the bible consistency argument in the first post, but robot-logic may be misplaced, and sound petulant and childish. Sexism is rampant in nature, so does the natural-heterosexual argument lend itself to "natural" male dominance? Who really cares if it does? Screw it.
   Do we have to have opinions about everything? Do we have to believe that, say, all races are equal? I'm supposed to think that, I've heard. Can I just not care whether they are or not--what would I do with that information if I had the omniscience to really have it? Nothing much, nothing practical. I believe as a matter of will, as the only sane decision of human policy, that's all.
   I don't care if homosexuality is a choice or hereditary, if someone who feels it tells me one, then the other, I'll take their word every time, either way, and I don't have to like it or dislike it. I'm a little more interested in my own pathological hetero issues and obsessions--that stuff I have to deal with. What don't you like about straight marriage?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 01:02 AM

My question is, do people's personal "wants" and "urges" toward parental forms of self-gratification outweigh the heavy and very real emotional, psychological, social and physical costs to children of "growing up gay" in ANY way, in this culture today?

So if a straight couple acts like they don't really want a child, but when it comes along, they pull up their socks and admit that they're in for the long haul it's okay? That someone who really really really really wants children is somehow overburdoned with that desire to the point that they actually won't make a good parent? You haven't been listening--the "costs" are minimal if the household is loving and respectful. Are you afraid that gay parents might try to unduly influence their children to be gay instead of straight? Daylia, it's time to stop worrying about the "motives" behind gay adoptions--any time a child is wanted, then there is a good chance that that child will thrive in that environment.

As to programs like "Queen Eye" and such--I see that as on a par with "While You Were Out" and "Changing Space"--they drive me nuts to watch, and if my family ever pulled a stunt like having a tv crew come in to trash the house, I'll murder them all. It's popular culture televison--there are little snippits we can learn from, but mostly viewers are just watching for that micro-expression at the end of the program to see if the recipient of such largess is appalled and pissed off.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Amergin
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 01:27 AM

Well we all know that the Homosexual Agenda is to build an army. The only reason they want to adopt the children is to create more gays and lesbians like themselves and to further there evil agenda. Soon their army will be big enough to take over the world!

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 01:37 AM

Daylia,

Your arguments are still suffering from the same logical flaws that I pointed out before and that you have not answered.

1) you use data about children who are gay, and apply them to children whose PARENTS are gay. You have shown no evidence of any abuse, violence, or ostracism of children whose PARENTS are gay, nor have you shown that they have a more difficult life.

2) You mock me for pointing out that children of other kinds of parents may find life tough too, with your bullshit about



I know any kid I'd procure has a 99% chance of enduring a lifetime of psychological difficulties and social abuse, possibly even
physical violence because of me and my lifestyle. But lots of gays, blacks, Jews etc pay that price - so what? The kid might
even end up committing suicide if it can't handle the pressures of having me as a parent. WHo cares? Lots of kids blow
themselves away anyhow.

I want it, that's what's most important. I'm gonna "LOOOOOOVE" it so much and be so very "kind" and "respectful" to it!
Wife beaters, child abusers, pedophiles, drunks, crack addicts etc have kids, therefore so can I. I'm gonna get exactly what I
want, right now, and no one can take that right away from me."

But turn this around.

Say, for example, that I am black. Because of this, I know any kid I'd procure has a 99% chance of enduring a lifetime of psychological difficulties and social abuse, possibly even
physical violence because of me and my lifestyle. But lots of gays, Jews etc pay that price - so what? The kid might
even end up committing suicide if it can't handle the pressures of having me as a parent. WHo cares? Lots of kids blow
themselves away anyhow.

I want it, that's what's most important. I'm gonna "LOOOOOOVE" it so much and be so very "kind" and "respectful" to it!
Wife beaters, child abusers, pedophiles, drunks, crack addicts etc have kids, therefore so can I. I'm gonna get exactly what I
want, right now, and no one can take that right away from me."

Your argument still applies to blacks, and any other stigmatized group, just as mich as it does to gays. By condeming such parents as selfish, you are condemning every black parent, Jewish parent, and ethnic minority parent.

I did not think you were a bigot before. Now I DO think you are a bigot.

Finally, why is it okay for another kind of couple to bring a child into this world just because of their Parental wants and needs, but not gay couples? In fact, this is the ONLY good reason to have children: because you really want them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Brother
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:25 AM

Just think about it, if everyone in the world would marry same sex partners it would be the end of the world after just one generation. Just an observation, don't attack me. - LB

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,NERD
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:56 AM

Er, Little Brother,

You are wrong. But I mean that in a non-attacking kind of a way.

Here's what I mean: As long as women want to have children and men are willing to donate sperm (either through sperm banks or by "direct deposit": straight sex), the human race can survive without any opposite-sex marriages and even without any straight people. If everyone were gay and married to other gays, but they were also willing to endure straight sex outside of their marriages in order to have children, the species would continue.

In fact, marriages are not necessary at all to the perpetuation of the species. No other animal species gets married at all, and few of them are even monogamous, but many of them manage to stick around.

I take that back. Some members of other species are married. I know a dude who went to vegas and had his cat married to his dog. I wonder if they'll adopt?

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:56 AM

. . . and then there's Esmeralda.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:58 AM

Nobody's noticed. The emporer's naked. Marriage is 'all in the mind, ya know'. As for me & my house, shackin'-up is all I want to do & that w/ the proper opposit. Not easy, but you can't imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:24 AM

People, you've all made some very good points here. Thank you.

I know my "imaginings" depict a worst-case scenario - that's what I intended though. That "worst-case scenario" is based on a lifetime of experience (including my own as a very young teen) with homosexuals and bisexuals kids and adults, as well as with people who have or procure kids for very questionable reasons.

I have never yet personally known a gay person who adopted or otherwise procured a child. But I have known so many sickly, unhappy, socially "handicapped" homosexuals and bisexuals. :-( The truth is, I've only known one pair of homosexuals who seemed happy and healthy and to really love each other - and even that pair split up about 6 months after I met them. That was 2 years ago, and they've each been in and out of a few new relationships since.

And over the years they've lost their gay friends to AIDS on a regular basis. One gay I know right now is 20 years old, and so far he's watched 3 of his friends - including one of his (many) partners - die of AIDS. He's skinny and sickly and set upon, wears the same clothes every day for months, has a grade 9 education and works at a minimum-wage job, asks me to help him with HUNA healing methods for his "rectal rips" quite often (which I do), still benefits from being (gently) reminded to shower and even to feed himself.

He keeps telling me he's gonna marry his 22 year old boyfriend in a couple months, and they want LOTS of kids! When he talks like that, I just get filled with dread and clam right up.

What can I say? He's got the "right"! And what's wrong with me that I can't wholeheartedly celebrate his plans? Must be bigotry, I guess.

Bigot that I am, in all honesty I would entrust NONE of the gay or bisexual people I've known with a child. I'm glad some of you have known others who are more capable and well-adjusted.

I have known miserable teenage girls in foster homes, where the parents WERE only out for the money, and the kids were being sexually interfered with on a regular basis by older male members of that foster family. :-(

I have known a crack-addicted alcoholic couple who made sure they popped a new (dirty and neglected) kid out every 4-5 years so they could stay on the dole (and no I'm not kidding or exaggerating - that's what they told me, and I watched it happen).

I have known a 4-week old infant who died of overexposure and neglect, because it's 16-yr single mother would "forget" to feed it, dress it up like a new dolly instead and stroll it all over town in 30 below weather, to show it off to her friends at the various high schools. This girl had the baby because she wanted to quit school, get out of her parent's house and go on social benefits. She spent her welfare cheques on a fur coat, leather boots and partying, and that baby was sleeping on a blanket on the concrete floor in her basement apartment - in February.

She took that baby home without anyone saying "boo", no public health people had ever been in to check on her or the baby (even though they knew she was only 16 and alone), and when it died the coroner simply marked "crib death" on the death certificate. No autopsy was ever done - and truthfully, no-one really cared.

The girl and her family were oh-so-proud of the baby's pretty funeral dress, showing off the pictures of the funeral to everyone who would look. I still feel sick and wanna go strangle more than a few STUPID PEOPLE when I think about it ... pardon me for sounding so un-loving. *sigh*

So yes, I have seen kids procured only for "parental self-gratification" reasons, and suffer and die becuase of it. I'm sorry if it seems so unreasonable that I would imagine that gay people might be much the same as straight people when it comes to reasons for wanting a baby, or that the "gay factor" would most likely make such a situation even worse for the child. (I don't mean ALL straight or gay people, of course, but as far as I'm concerned putting even ONE child at risk is too much).

But maybe my "bigotry and prejudice" is talking again, I don;t know. THe 20yr old gay friend I told you about above has really put me on the spot a few times over the last month or so. I've been trying very hard to sort out my thoughts and feelings about this so I can keep looking him in the eye. I do really like him, he's a musician and really quite brilliant - an exceptional young man in many ways.

I'm finding this very difficult :-( so thank you all for your ideas and opinions. He's really the reason I started posting on this thread in the first place.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:14 AM

Nerd, I wish that you could stay on topic and stop confusing the issue when you address my posts. This discussion is not about blacks or Jews etc, it's about gays, gay parents and what life might be like for any kids they might procure.

There are HUGE differences between blacks/Jews etc as a group and gays as a group, as you probably know - so why do you keep sidetracking the issue? These tactics just waste eveyone's time and divert attention from the topic at hand.

Do you not want to look at it at all? Or are you just trying to make me look like fool because I have different experiences, feelings and opinions than your own? Are you perhaps a bit "bigoted" yourself - against anyone like me who doesn't think or feel exactly like you do?

I'm asking because I don't know - I don't know you from a hole in the ground. Therefore I cannot make valid judgements about you at all - and even if I did know you quite well, I still don't have the "right" to judge you, or anyone else for that matter. I only wish you'd do the same, and refrain from making ill-conceived, inappropriate and invalid personal judgements about me - or any other poster here.

Please read Jeri's last post above, and give it some careful consideration. I can see you have absolutely no respect for me or anything I might say, but you might be more open to listening to Jeri.


daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:33 AM

Whoo--good typo--last night the 'cat was so slow that I thought I'd caught it before it went through. Freudian slips are always interesting--"Queer Eye" came out "Queen Eye" !! My friend in NYC (mentioned above) would say ROFLMAO! Now back to the messages since then (perhaps one of the sharp Mudcat proof readers already caught it?)

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:53 AM

I'm honored, Daylia.

I don't think there's a huge difference between sexual orientation and race. Neither factor is a matter of choice and both race and sexual orientation are excuses for societies to treat people badly.

I met a South African woman once, who was deathly afraid of apartheid ending. She said all the Black people she'd ever met were rude and angry. I asked her "If you were treated like they'd been, wouldn't you tend to be a bit rude and angry at the people who treated you that way?" She asked if Blacks in America were like that. I told her some of the ones who grew up poor and without hope were, but most I'd met were as good or back as her or me, likely because they had the same opportunities we did. I think people ought to have opportunities to be as good they CAN be.

If all the gay people you've met have had problems, think about the possibility they're not representative of ALL gay people. As for your 20 year-old friend who wants to get married and have lots of kids - does his gayness really have anything to do with that? Immaturity and impulsiveness are universal human possibilities.

I'm guessing you work or live in a place that presents you with some pretty bad examples of parents of all types. There are good examples, but you don't come into contact with them. I think whether or not a person should adopt a kid should be based on that individual's potential for being a good parent, and sexual orientation shouldn't be a factor. The individual has to have the right to be considered first.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:08 AM

Daylia, you're a fine one to lecture anyone about staying on the page! First you admonish Nerd: "Nerd, I wish that you could stay on topic and stop confusing the issue when you address my posts. This discussion is not about blacks or Jews etc, it's about gays, gay parents and what life might be like for any kids they might procure." Then, despite the fact that we're talking about healthy, stable, loving couples wanting to adopt children, you come up with this cock-eyed catalog of "wrongs" against children (that you now seem to be labeling "procurement"--but in most circles "procurement" implies prostitution in some form--is that where you're headed next?)

I have never yet personally known a gay person who adopted or otherwise procured a child. But I have known so many sickly, unhappy, socially "handicapped" homosexuals and bisexuals.

And over the years they've lost their gay friends to AIDS on a regular basis. One gay I know right now is 20 years old, and so far he's watched 3 of his friends - including one of his (many) partners - die of AIDS. He's skinny and sickly and set upon, wears the same clothes every day for months, has a grade 9 education and works at a minimum-wage job, asks me to help him with HUNA healing methods for his "rectal rips" quite often (which I do), still benefits from being (gently) reminded to shower and even to feed himself.

He keeps telling me he's gonna marry his 22 year old boyfriend in a couple months, and they want LOTS of kids! When he talks like that, I just get filled with dread and clam right up.

I have known miserable teenage girls in foster homes, where the parents WERE only out for the money, and the kids were being sexually interfered with on a regular basis by older male members of that foster family.

I have known a 4-week old infant who died of overexposure and neglect, because it's 16-yr single mother would "forget" to feed it, dress it up like a new dolly instead and stroll it all over town in 30 below weather, to show it off to her friends at the various high schools. This girl had the baby because she wanted to quit school, get out of her parent's house and go on social benefits.

So yes, I have seen kids procured only for "parental self-gratification" reasons, and suffer and die becuase of it. I'm sorry if it seems so unreasonable that I would imagine that gay people might be much the same as straight people when it comes to reasons for wanting a baby, or that the "gay factor" would most likely make such a situation even worse for the child. (I don't mean ALL straight or gay people, of course, but as far as I'm concerned putting even ONE child at risk is too much).

You're describing low- or non-functioning people. It sounds like you've made a tour of the local homeless shelter. Take a good survey and you'll find mentally ill people from all cultural walks of life there, yet you're reporting on a small slice of that population (and now you've broadened your zone to include uneducated selfish teenaged girls--how did you manage that odd leap of logic?)

After making his case about the corrupt cases that Others make when opposing gay marriage, John Peekstok concluded:

So this is what it comes down to: You don't like gay marriage because of personal revulsion. Somewhere deep inside you have enough sense to know that you can't get something outlawed in America because it turns you off. So you come up with all these other religious, traditional, public safety sort of reasons. The problem is, these other reasons don't stand up to any scrutiny. So why not just give it up and admit that there are people around who are different than you and who gross you out, and that in America part of the deal is that you have to put up with them?

I'd say you're living up to this assessment as you seek ways to confuse and distract and drag in non-sequitur elements to this argument that you can't possibly win.

It's past time to move on to other threads--I've frittered away too much ink here. The usual suspects responded to the discussion, and the usual outcomes have been acheived.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 12:32 PM

I don't think there's a huge difference between sexual orientation and race. Neither factor is a matter of choice ...

I cannot agree with this, Jeri. I am a human being. My sexual orientation is and always was a matter of choice, as I explained to kat above -

... I am just as "bisexual", "lesbigay" and into "self-gratification" as you or anyone else ...

I chose not to physically engage in a bisexual lifestyle a few years after I hit puberty though, for what I consider to be excellent personal and social reasons. That was a very easy choice to make, for me. And as far as I know, that choice has done me no harm whatsoever.


I am straight by personal choice, Jeri. I made that choice in adolescence, and I could change it at any time if I felt so inclined.

Surely I am not the only human being who chose and continues to choose their sexual orientation and lifestyle!!


I think whether or not a person should adopt a kid should be based on that individual's potential for being a good parent, and sexual orientation shouldn't be a factor. The individual has to have the right to be considered first.


The individual traits of adoptive parents should of course be carefully screened and considered first. And whether people like it or not, sexual orientation and lifestyle is now and will very likely continue to be an important "personal variable" - a weighty causal or determining factor in the state of anybody's physical / emotional / social health and well-being.

The 20yr old you've referred to is an excellent example of this.

As I said to Don above,

Denying or minimizing the gay "price tag" may help some of you feel better, but in reality it is highly irresponsible and benefits no one.

Again, I am very glad there are people out there who are doing better than the ones I know and have known. And certainly the people I've known are not exactly the same as all people everywhere!

But I do live in exactly the same world as you do, Jeri, near a quite "representative" small city here in Ontario. I am a teacher, a parent, a co-worker, a volunteer, a neighbour, a musician, an aunt and more. None of these occupations are what I consider to be highly unique.

Sorry, I just don't see what exactly makes my observations and experiences any less "representative" than anyone else's.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:32 PM

It does seem to me, daylia, that your gay and Lesbian acquaintances are a collection of pretty dysfunctional people. The community in which you live, particularly if it is small, may be a major factor in this.

I live in Seattle, which is a city of approximately half a million people within the city limits, but with a population of nearly three million if you include the suburbs such as Lake City, Shoreline, Burien, Bellevue, and Renton, all within ten to twenty minutes' drive. This area has something of a reputation for being liberal; if not always politically liberal, at least socially liberal. There is, of course, prejudice against gays and Lesbians, but there is also a fairly high level of acceptance of people with different life-styles. As an indicator of this, there are several churches in and around the city (including the one I often attend) that are signatories to the "Reconciled in Christ" policy which is paraphrase in my church's "Affirmation of Welcome":

We affirm with the apostle Paul that in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female" (Galatians 3:28). Christ has made us one. . . . " Although our world can seem to be a place of alienation and brokenness, Christ calls us to reconciliation and wholeness. We are challenged by Christ to care for, to love, to understand, and to listen to each other, regardless of our race, age, gender, marital status, physical and mental abilities, sexual/affectional orientation [emphasis mine], national origin or economic status. We celebrate the special gifts that each has to bring. All people are welcome within the membership of Central Lutheran Church. . . .

This is one of a number of churches that is perfectly willing to conduct commitment or marriage ceremonies for same sex couples, and indeed has done so several times. A number of gay men and Lesbian women who, thankful for finding a church in which their gender orientation is considered irrelevant, have thrown themselves into church activities with such enthusiasm and vigor that this small, inner-city church's social programs are making a real difference in the community (serving the homeless, the hungry, the mentally ill, wherever there is a need). The two men of whom I spoke belong to this church, and this is how I met them and know of their adoption of the two boys. I see the boys almost every Sunday. They are in the church's Sunday school. Incidentally, the church has two pastors. One is a young woman, the other a very large black man who wears an earring. I should also note for the record that this is not a "gay church." The majority of members are straight. It is a mainline (ELCA) Lutheran church and a member in good standing of the Pacific Northwest Synod.

This may be something of a microcosm, but I think there is a macro-lesson to be learned here:   given a modicum of acceptance—which is to say, given half a chance to live a normal life, unhassled by the wider social climate within which they live—gays and Lesbians are just like anybody else.

Also just for the record, as far as my own sexual orientation is concerned, it was never a matter of choice. I am heterosexual, have always been (from the time I first learned about sex on, there was never a question in my mind—or body), and I have been happily married for nearly three decades. I do not find the idea of intimate sexual relations with a member of my own sex distasteful or "disgusting," the idea just does not appeal to me. It doesn't turn me on and I am not interested in such a relationship. But my orientation is mine, and I have no right to impose my life-style on someone else any more than they have a right to impose theirs on me. I consider that one of the basic freedoms.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:44 PM

Incidentally, a few years ago, I was discussing the matter of choice of sexual orientation with a gay friend of mine whom I met at the aforementioned church. He said that for him, it was never a matter of choice any more than my being straight was for me. By the time he reached puberty, he knew he was "different." He liked girls, but he wasn't sexually attracted to them, he was attracted to boys.

He made what I consider a very telling statement. He said, "When you consider all the trouble, all the bigotry and prejudice that homosexuals face, sometimes including physical violence or actually getting killed, who, in his right mind, would ever choose to be one? Choice? No, I never had a choice."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Justa Picker
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

So Kendall, last week when we were having sex in the back seat of your car, you told me your name was Woody?

What's the deal? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:23 PM

It does seem to me, daylia, that your gay and Lesbian acquaintances are a collection of pretty dysfunctional people

I agree. But they certainly aren't the only dysfunctional people I've known!

Funny, Don, I was just sitting here thinking about something the 20yr old gay friend I mentioned before told me a couple weeks ago.

He said that while he'd been lured into a gay lifestyle at age 13 (by older males who "pimped" him and employed him as a drug runner on the streets of Toronto for a few years), he'd also had several short relationships with females, including one which lasted several months and resulted in an aborted pregnancy.

Since then, he says, he's chosen to be exclusively gay, simply because he likes sex with men better than sex with women. He says it's less work. (He's probably right)   

The person "John" whom LH speaks about in his post above appears to have chosen a gay lifestyle as well.

Maybe sexual orientation is a more of a choice for some than it is for others. It was certainly a choice - and a very easy one - for me.

In any case, adult human beings do (in most cases) freely and consciously choose to engage or not to engage in any type of physical/sexual behavior or lifestyle, quite independently of innate biological "urges. Exceptions to this would be incidences of sexual abuse or rape.   

Even at age 13, my friend says his behaviors were a "free choice". He quit school and chose to leave his parent's home because there was so much money to be made on the street in the sex-and-drug industry. And though his story is certainly not "representative" of all gays I don't think it's uncommon, and I do think it's worth some consideration.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:44 PM

Well.. This thread has sure changed in tone.

A few days ago the few who gave an alternative view from the PC non thinkers,were being hounded off the site as "bigots".

I joined this site because I thought folkies would have enough sense to disregard the politically correct nonesense were fed by most of the media.
How wrong I was,there's little more depth here than any other internet chat forum.
We may be able to communicate in words of more than one syllable,but the content is often cliched PC crap.
Too much conventional thinking on this forum.

Daylia.. your a brave lass to take on these people and come out with your argument intact and your spirit unbroken.
Before Ellenpoly took her "brainstorm", she said something I do agree with, "We would probably be better in a tribal society".
The tensions of conventional marriage ,too often impact badly on the children, and I would presume the tensions in homosexual marriage would be many times worse.

It should be the good of the children we consider before anything else,they are our only hope for a better and more loving world ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Cluin
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 05:49 PM

Then there's this couple.

One thing to be said about marriage... it's the leading cause of divorce.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:24 PM

Way back in the Fifties, the findings of the Kinsey Reports indicated that gender orientation seems to fall on a spectrum. The graphs (for males and for females) in the books showed that eight to twelve percent of each sex occupied the gay or Lesbian side of the spectrum. Lots of people had a hissy-fit over this—the idea that around ten percent of the population was fundamentally homosexual, in some circles, was "unacceptable," and Kinsey was roundly excoriated for his research. But that does not invalidate the research. However, as I recall, there was a "grey area" on each chart between the confirmed no-choice heterosexual and the no-choice homosexual where the so-called "bi-sexual" was to be found. These folks did seem to have a choice. So apparently it isn't cut-and-dried.

But the idea that heterosexuality or homosexuality is a choice for everybody is not upheld by research (including a lot of research much more recent than Kinsey's). In fact, except for that small band of males and small band of females, most research shows that gender orientation is not a choice.

Also, recent brain research has indicated a minute, but apparently important difference in the hypothalamuses of heterosexuals and homosexuals of both sexes. Theory has it that the important factor is the timing of the release of male and female hormones in utero as the fetus is developing. Hence, sexual orientation is not hereditary, it is congenital.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 06:44 PM

Well, I don't really care if you're straight or gay or none of the above. If two people want to make such a commitment of love as marriage is, let 'em.

But like heterosexual marriage, it shouldn't be undertaken at all unless both parties are willing to make the changes and sacrifices a successful marriage requires.

As for obtaining the "blessings of the church upon the union" -- that's up to the various churches.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Amos
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 07:16 PM

Don, thanks for the knowledgeable summary. I concuir with Rapair ein general; but I feel civil states and and civil organization more sophisticated than a tribe should be ready and willing to embrace the individual regardless of his place on the sexual or political spectrum or gender or religion either for that matter.

There are some things that are just individual issues no matter HOW grabby and interferesome a state wants to get.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,fred miller
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:06 PM

I find the tone of this thread hilarious, and am printing it out for reference, because I have an amateur interest in writing comedy. The funny part is the pseudo-logic we make up as an armature for our unexamined feelings. We want it to make sense, and grab at anything, no matter how odd, hypothetical, and unprincipled. Albert Brooks did a lot with this as a comedic latzi, I think.

   Daylia, I wouldn't presume to challenge you about your own experience, but why in the world would you assume it must be the same for others? I know a cute guy when I see one, but as a sexual choice, sure, I could also choose to eat hay, or graze like a cow--I COULD, but like you I find it very easy to "choose" otherwise. And what if it is a choice? So what? What does that equal?

Here's Akenaton still calling anyone who doesn't share his view a PC non-thinker, and mentioning that he would presume things are worse for gay parenting. Ake--why exactly is what you presume so much richer and deeper than everyone else's pc non-thoughts? Is it because SOME people are going to be judgmental? Drat it, but yes you're right, some people are. So gays should forget it already. Dude.

I do know a gay couple with kids but don't see the point in offering up particular people to spin goof-ball generalizations and self-deluding syllogisms. I'm not taking sides about it, exactly, I just like to see what people find handy to use to climb up and look down on humanity, with such keen judgement and other-worldly wisdom. It's a hoot.

The komodo dragon would seem to be doomed, since it likes to eat its young, but life goes on somehow. Somehow an egg-babe with no more wit than a rock outsmarts the adult of the species. From this one might infer adult komodos can reason, and thus fool themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:42 PM

It's still not my business. I am a latent heterosexual and I expect I shall remain so. No amount of logic or reason or argument will change that. As Fred said, I too recognize good-looking men when I see them. However, they do little to make me feel anything in relation to sexuality. Besides, sex is just one aspect of love. It ain't the whole ball of wax. Lotsa people seem to be hung up on that--the sex part that is.

Many of the arguments put forth in this thread are the same arguments that were put forth years ago to do with so-called mixed marriages. "Oooh, can't have that. The children will suffer." Hot flash here. People suffer throughout life. It's part of the package for most of us. However, none suffer so much as those who don't experience love--however that's interpreted. Homosexuality is not my choice, but then again, neither was heterosexuality. When children are well cared for, loved and nurtured, I don't really give a damn who's doing that. It's a good thing. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:53 PM

You know, there's something that happens in these kind of discussions, and it interferes with the process. This is it:

Due to an initial disagreement over some specific issue a particular Mudcatter (or several Mudcatters) decide that someone else on the forum is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG (due to something they said in a particular post)...and they henceforth pounce on each succeeding post by that person with little or no goodwill, no real intent to understand what the person said, but a set resolve to use it to continue proving how wrong and completely off the beam that person is. This is not conducive to a healthy dialogue. :-)

It becomes emotional lockstep rather than a serious effort to discuss things fairly. It becomes a habit.

Now, some people did that to Akenaton a long way back in this thread...and some are doing it to daylia every time she posts. I won't name names. :-)

Take another look, people. I know daylia. She is a very sensible, very likeable person who has had a lot of tough experience with the down side of life, yet gotten through it in one piece somehow, and raised 3 sons who have turned out to be really nice people without the help of a reliable partner, and done it all by teaching piano lessons to a great many young students (she is a superb piano player and instructor). She is not the bigoted figure of your fantasies, regardless of whether or not you happen to disagree with something she said in some post earlier in this thread. She does not deserve to be on trial here.

And neither is Akenaton the bigoted person he has been accused of being, as far as I can see, having read his posts with some attention.

In other words, folks, you're crying wolf here. It's a pity, because there ARE real bigots and gaybashers out there whom you could be directing all this ire towards instead of at daylia and/or Akenaton.

I also know the 20 year old gay man that daylia spoke of, and he is indeed brilliant in a number of respects, very likeable, and pretty naive at this point in his general expectations of life. That's common in 20 year olds. I hope he does well in life and avoids the worse pitfalls along the way. He has tremendous potential if he uses it wisely.

(talk about a lively thread...!)

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:07 PM

Weddins are a big rip off, you haf to pay the vicar bloke [probably about 100 pounds], then you have to buy a cake, [a total big rip off], and more people going=bigger cake, and you haf to buy weddingf suit, [another 100 quid!, and wedding car, and stuff like that, total big complete rip off.

and fuerals are another bloody rip off, and piss me off ie =wen my dad got buried [he was ded at the time], the coffin was 500 pounds, but it was just veneered chipboard [MDF]!, i moaned to the funeral company="why do you charge so much, and rip people off?", they said "thats our prices, wood is expencive etc", i said its "not even wood, its bloody chipboard", i could have made one at home for a few quid!
and you have to pay the vicar bloke, thats about 100 quid
and you have to pay the doctor, waht checks they are ded, thats 30 quid, another big rip off.

I bet vicars are rich, just think, 100 quid for 1/2 hour job!

I think christenings are free, my mate called Steve got his new son christened, i don't think he paid them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:39 PM

I can relate somewhat to both of you, brucie and Fred. I too recognize both good-looking men and women when I see them. However, neither make me feel much in relation to sexuality these days.

They're about as titillating as good-looking gazebos. Flamingos, maybe.

Hey, maybe I'm not heterosexual-by-choice-bisexual-by-nature, but asexual! Nay-sexual? Maybe quasi-sexual.

That's it, quasi-sexual.

I think I'm gonna start up an annual Quasi-Pride Day, with parades and ribbons and local cable TV and all the trimmings. It's time we Quasi's came out of our Quasets!

And those marriage and divorce laws? Ha! They're just *moooooooooooooooooooooooooot* to us Quasis!

But should Quasi's adopt kids?


oh nooooooo ... that IS the question ...

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:43 PM

Little Hawk,

If Solomon ever decides to quit, you don't need to apply or interview. You're in, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:47 PM

Daylia,

Can we put modos in the quasi parade? I had to ask. It's a sickness with me.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:00 PM

The Quasi-Pride Day is a terrific idea, daylia! Sign me up! And no one is afraid of Quasi's either. What a cool idea. I occasionally still feel attracted to this or that person, though, so I'm not a total quasi, yet. Still, I think it's a lovely idea.

Brucie - Thanks, man! But what are "modos"?

jOhn from Hull - You are so right, jOhn. Weddings and funerals ARE a big, giant ripoff! That's one of the very good reasons (among others) why I have not married, and why I have left instructions advising people not to conduct the usual funeral industry nonsense on my behalf when I decide to move back into spirit at the end of this latest Earth-walk. I do not want to be attended to by a bunch of solemn-looking paid professionals dressed in penguin suits.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: pdq
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM

*daylia* - please keep it quiet about flamingos! If all women find out the truth about them, we men will have even less to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:16 PM

Little Hawk, you're gonna feel bad you missed this one.

They would then be quasimodos.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:24 PM

Of course! That's what I get for reading too hurriedly. :-)

Then it could also be called "Hump Day", couldn't it? But that would lead to confusion...

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: Peace
Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:29 PM

I had a hunch you'd say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why you don't like gay marriage
From: GUEST,Tang The Orangutang
Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:04 AM

You people sicken me! You go on and on about gay rights, and minority rights, but you never think of those of us who are not human. You only think of us as "animals", objects to be exploited. Take Brucie's goat Esmeralda. do you actually believe that she enjoys to be poked and proddled and manhandled by that pervert? What Kendall Morse and his Rama Llama and the kids he abandoned her with. Do you think she has any recourse for suing him for child support? Hell no she doesn't! After all of the unnatural things he talked her into doing for him, whispering things in her ears like how much she means to him and how much he loves her, but like a human he finds out he has a kid or three with her and he runs off to cavort with one of his own kind. Disgusting and pure racist! This bigotry must stop!