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BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference

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CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 06:27 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 06:30 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 06:34 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 06:42 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 06:48 PM
Little Hawk 08 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM
Royston 08 Mar 10 - 07:05 PM
catspaw49 08 Mar 10 - 07:15 PM
Bill D 08 Mar 10 - 07:38 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 07:47 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 07:50 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 07:53 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 07:55 PM
CarolC 08 Mar 10 - 08:25 PM
ichMael 08 Mar 10 - 09:45 PM
Little Hawk 08 Mar 10 - 10:50 PM
Royston 09 Mar 10 - 03:07 AM
Royston 09 Mar 10 - 03:39 AM
Stu 09 Mar 10 - 09:54 AM
Royston 09 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM
Wolfgang 09 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 01:51 PM
Little Hawk 09 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM
Little Hawk 09 Mar 10 - 02:06 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 02:19 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 02:21 PM
Royston 09 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM
Little Hawk 09 Mar 10 - 02:31 PM
Little Hawk 09 Mar 10 - 02:33 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM
Royston 09 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM
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CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 03:56 PM
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Bill D 09 Mar 10 - 04:35 PM
CarolC 09 Mar 10 - 04:47 PM
Bill D 09 Mar 10 - 04:56 PM
Stilly River Sage 09 Mar 10 - 05:12 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:27 PM

This video is was made during the construction of the WTC. In it, one can see how the WTC was constructed. The massive steel core columns were bolted to the bedrock under the WTC buildings, and were thoroughly crossbraced This video even says that the outer shell was designed to transfer some of its load to the core (not the other way around)...

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1puqt_building-the-world-trade-center-1-o_news

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1purh_building-the-world-trade-center-2-o_news



This video has footage of one of the people responsible for the construction of the WTC (I believe he was the project manager), and some quotes from John Skilling, who was the chief structural engineer of the WTC. I had heard him referred to as a designer, but I guess that may not be the best way to refer to him. However, these two people were part of the team that was tasked with realizing the architect's intention for the way the buildings were to be constructed. Both of these people talk about the focus on constructing the buildings in such a way that they would be able to withstand the kind of event that happened on 9/11. The relevant footage is a little more than halfway through. The rest of the video has relevant material as well, and Simple scientific principals guide the approach being taken by the makers of this video...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4617650616903609314&ei=BTiVS42uJo6mqgKO9qnLAg&q=blueprint+for+truth+gage&hl=en&view=3#



This paper has a lot of documentation that debunks a lot of the government's version of events, and it also effectively destroys a lot of the assertions made in the paper catspaw linked in this thread, including the alleged seismographic evidence...

Click here


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:30 PM

It makes people who question 9/11 on those grounds look stupid. Because the controlled demolition idea is a stupid idea.

By association it makes anyone that questions 9/11 look stupid. But there are intelligent questions to ask about 9/11.


Actually, Royston, it doesn't make anyone look any more stupid than the people who accept the government's version of events without question even despite the lack of evidence for this version of events, and the overwhelming evidence that contradicts it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:34 PM

A note about concrete construction. You can pour a concrete form really, really quickly. If a concrete core structure was even remotely capable of standing unsupported, then civil engineers would pour the full 400 or more metres of concrete in one fell swoop, clear the concrete plant and contractors off site for a fraction of the cost and then let the steelworkers catch up at leisure.

But it doesn't work that way. The core can't stand without the outer structure and the outer structure can't stand without the core. In super-tall buildings, the outer structure is the principal load bearing element.


Royston, the core structure was not concrete construction. This is a fiction and a fantasy that you appear to need to cling to because you can't face the reality of the situation. I have already provide proof that the core was not concrete construction (which I have already invited you to examine) and I just now posted some more. If you continue to choose to cling to the fantasy that it was a concrete construction, you make yourself look far more stupid than the people you are accusing of looking stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:42 PM

Above, Royston & I have been asked to 'prove' our silly 'faith-based' opinions, and I have declined to do this, and my explanation...that it is not my job or my expertise or my inclination to "show" how it all happened simply is ignored, or I am insulted for my refusal.

Bill, if you were capable of carrying on a discussion in which you didn't persistently insult people in the exact same manner as you are saying you're being insulted, you might have an easier time of it in discussions like this one. And one of the most ridiculous aspects of the way you do this is you tell other people they are not being rational because they are not working with the facts, and then you proceed to use only your own belief in your rightness as your evidence to back up your assertions. If you're going to expect us to accept anything you have to say, you really can't expect us to accept it just because you say so. You seem to think that you have an inherent rightness that doesn't require any evidence whatever, and all you have to do is say a thing and you expect everyone to just accept it because of your inherent rightness. Doesn't work that way, I'm afraid, and it makes me wonder what kind of ego is required to have such an attitude about oneself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:48 PM

Royston, it is not necessary to show how things did happened in order to successfully refute the government's version of events. That is a straw man. The only thing that is necessary is to prove that it was not possible for them to happen the way the government is saying they did. That's all. We already have enough evidence that the government's version of events is not credible. That alone is reason enough to have a thorough investigation into what happened on 9/11.

And there are many good reasons to do this. We need to know the truth, whatever it is. Even if it makes people like you and Bill uncomfortable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

Bill, you're contributing nothing to this discussion. Your complete lack of respect for people who won't agree to see it the way you do negates your ability to contribute anything here. Why not just go to another thread where you can contribute something?


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Royston
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:05 PM

Errm, CarolC, if you think the WTC towers did not have a reinforced concrete core, then you are sorely mistaken.

What do you think they made it from? Pixie dust?

Honestly, CarolC, if you think that, there is absolutely no point whatever discussing this with you.

Your first video (2:00 to 2:30) talks about how the outer shell carries most of the gravity load and all of the wind loading of the structure.

Madness, madness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:15 PM

Madness, Madness..........

Nice try Royston but welcome to the "poor dumb fools club." I tried several tacks with Carol and I was impressed with yours but alas, you too have come to the same conclusion.........Madness, Madness.

If you don't mind fools like Bill and I, the company isn't too bad at all.........Coffee's free anyway........


Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:38 PM

about Richard Gage who was NOT involved in the tower design.

from that page:
"The mainstream of the scientific and engineering community has rejected the position taken by the group. In 2005, a report from the National Institute of Standards and Technology concluded that the destruction of the World Trade Center towers was initiated by a "progressive collapse" caused by the jet impacts and the resultant fires. A 2008 NIST report described a similar progressive collapse as the cause of the destruction of the third tallest building located at the World Trade Center site, 7 WTC. Many mainstream scientists choose not to debate proponents of 9/11 conspiracy theories, saying they do not want to lend them unwarranted credibility.[38]"

...I sure see their point...


from a link at the bottom of that page, giving more detail than even I had read before.

Q&A giving main claims about WTC7 and specific, detailed answers

But.. since some have already decided that the NIST is hiding something, I don't expect them to give any credence to it.... this is for those who may look in and be unsure... just to show that qualified experts HAVE replied to all the major accusations.

With a little searching, it is possible to find official explanations, counters TO those; some of the most unbelievable theories one can imagine, a few replies to THOSE theories, and more arcane technical data than most of us can even cope with.

Despite some allegations otherwise, I have looked at the links and watched the videos Carol and others have posted, and when I say I am unconvinced, it is because I have compared those hypothetical 'questions' to the official replies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:47 PM

Royston, I have already shown you proof that the core was massive steel columns that were bolted to the bedrock and that were thoroughly cross braced with steel beams. I have provided the blueprints of the core that show this, I have provided photographs of the core as it was being constructed, I have provided videos of the core as it was being constructed, and of people who were a part of the design and construction talking about them. Now, if you choose to cover your eyes and go "la la la la la la" and pretend this proof does not exist, that, I think, says far more about you than it does about me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:50 PM

Bill, I didn't say that Richard Gage was involved in the design. That is a straw man argument (not logical). John Skilling was the chief structural engineer, and there were two other people, whose names I don't remember, who were on the team that designed and constructed the buildings, who are either shown talking in the video, or in the case of Skilling, was quoted in the video. Watch the whole video.

You don't successfully make any points whatever by mischaracterizing what I said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:53 PM

Nice try Royston but welcome to the "poor dumb fools club." I tried several tacks with Carol and I was impressed with yours but alas, you too have come to the same conclusion.........Madness, Madness.

Neither one of you has answered my questions. Neither one of you has even tried to answer them. You, like Bill, just think that we should accept what you are saying for no reason other than because you say so. As I said about Bill, I have to wonder what kind of ego would give a person such an attitude about himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 07:55 PM

Bill, since you think the NIST evidence is so compelling, why don't you show me which evidence, in particular, addresses my questions about how the core was able to fail?


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 08:25 PM

In the Richard Gage video, Gage reads a response to a "Request for Correction" that he, Steven Jones, PhD (physics), Kevin Ryan, B Chem, Bob McIlvaine, and others, submitted to the NIST. This was NIST's response...

"We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse [of the Twin Towers]" 9/27/07


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: ichMael
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 09:45 PM

"I wish folks would start to learn that so many conspiracy theories are an essential part of the plan for perpetrators to "get away with it""

Your point is well taken, Royston. I do think that a great many well-known conspiracy theories have been deliberately planted in the national dialogue by the very group of high-level conspirators who arranged for 911 to occur. It's a classic Black-Ops disinformation propaganda campaign designed to confuse people, distract people, waste their energy chasing false trails, set them against one another, and discredit ALL related conspiracy theories about 911 merely by association.

A very effective means of protecting the original perpetrators, wouldn't you say?


I have to agree with all that. But what constitutes a conspiracy theory? The government's report is incomplete, contradictory and in some places intentionally misleading. That's a fact, not a conspiracy. If YOU issued such a statement regarding a crime that occurred on your watch, you would become suspect # 1. And discussion of the hundred inconsistencies in the report (like the stuff about steel, cores, etc) is not "conspiracy theory."

The government gave us the first "conspiracy theory" when it said 19 men with boxcutters did the job. 19 men CONSPIRED, then the government told us not to pay attention to conspiracy theories. They immediately presented us with a conundrum, and they've been building on it ever since, 24/7, never letting up.

And the U.S. has built an internal police state since 9/11. The Dept of Homeland Security was created and then hired Markus Wolf (former head of the East German Stasi) and Yevgeni Primakov (former head of the KGB). Hired two of the most notorious killers in the western world to "advise" the U.S. on how to "fight terrorism." You see, AMERICANS are the terrorists. Government documents talk about the "legitimate power monopoly" of the U.S. government, and when they talk about threats to that monopoly, they don't mean al qaida. They mean Baptists, Catholics, Democrats. They mean folk musicians, students, blacks, whites. If you can oppose them, then you are part of a terrorist group, and you will be dealt with.

You'd better stand up to this, people. You have nothing to lose. 9/11 was used to initiate "emergency borrowing," and that seed money led to the mafioso bankers being able to manufacture the current "banking crisis." Now the moneymen are targetting the European Union. Greece first, then Spain and Italy, then the rest. The 9/11 criminals are going to take EVERYTHING YOU HAVE before they kill you.

If you want to get back to basics on investigating 9/11, look at Buzzy Krongard, #3 in the CIA in 2001. He worked for A.B. Brown, a German bank, before he went to the CIA. Brown was involved in placing stock market put options against the airlines used in the attacks. Insider knowledge. This was reported on less than a week after the attacks, but then the U.S. govt started issuing "national security" seals to protect the information.

9/11 created the seed money for what will ultimately result in the destruction of the fiat paper money system in the western world. The lunatics running the scam will reduce us to barbarism and cleanse the planet of us, because we didn't hold them accountable for what they did on 9/11. That's what they hope, anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Mar 10 - 10:50 PM

Bill, I see you have decided to make some serious comments here after all. Great. I withdraw my previous remarks, and I look forward to further serious discussion, as opposed to just ridiculing people who are of a different opinion.

Now, regarding the possibility that the towers did indeed fall simply because the airplanes hit them...and that certainly is a possibility one could give some consideration to, depending on which evidence from which sources one chooses to go with...then how about the possibility that the administration could have been complicit in enabling the attack to go forward in any case?

To put it simply, what if a few powerful people in the USA wanted Al Qaeda to commit such an act of terrorism so they could go ahead and fight some wars they very much wanted to fight anyway?

That doesn't challenge your beliefs about how the towers fell at all, Bill, but it still raises the possibility of a domestic conspiracy at a high level...and not one that would have required the complicity of very many individuals or the placement of any bombs to pull it off. Just a few people in key command positions would be all that was required. A tiny group of individuals in the Bush administration could have done it, providing they were the right people who could issue the necessary orders to NORAD, the intelligence services, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Royston
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:07 AM

Look Carol, if you don't even know how the damn thing was built - even in spite of watching it go up and having access to all the explanations. Even if in spite of that, you still believe that it was built from mashed potato and butterfly wings, what point is there in discussing it with you.

It wasn't built as you say it was. You are just plain wrong. You are watching videos about a process you don't understand and you are living in total fundamental error as a result.

Even if the core of the building was made from jam, snowflakes and prayers, it doesn't change the process of the collapse. Damn, it happened three times - 2 x WTC towers, 1 x WTC 7. Steel frame buildings involved in raging, uncontrolled fires exacerbated by structural impact damage.

That is the way all tall buildings will fail in the same circumstances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Royston
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:39 AM

CarolC, I think I see your confusion.

The steel box-beams (that I think you are seeing and mistaking for the entire core structure) are just an element of the core structure. They rose up on the outside of, or were integrated into, the core-walls. I would need to check, but I would expect that these boxes were also filled with re-bar and concrete as the pouring progressed upwards. The box-beams are NOT the beginning and end of the core structure, there is an awful lot more to it than that. It is a reinforced concrete structure - even probably inside the boxes that have caused you so much confusion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Confere
From: Stu
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 09:54 AM

the code draws back


hmmmmm . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Royston
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:11 PM

And if anyone is any doubt about why these collapse theories are actually hazardous to our lives today, go and look at the intelligent and diligent efforts of concerned citizens at http://skyscrapersafety.org/

All this stuff about controlled demolition and comments to the effect 'the towers were so marvellous, they should have stood burning for days' not only detracts from whatever real conspiracy might have existed, it detracts from informed and cogent arguments about the dangers inherent in these buildings today.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:26 PM

Let's skip the implicit contemptuous racism of the "19 Arabs with boxcutters" argument of which "Dreaded Guest" was a champion.

Let's also skip the recent abuse (or, more neutral: change of use) of "conspiracy theory" as any theory which includes a conspiracy. That's not the original use.

When I think about what might be the truth in a complex series of events, I don't go down to single bits of facts or theories for at least two reasons. The main reason is of course that I do not understand enough to be able to judge for myself who is right with one particular argument. The next reason is that I do not expect every detail to be correct or each theory why something happened to be the best theory even in what I think is the most reasonable story line. I try to look at the whole picture and what makes most sense of it.

Who, why, and how?
I don't believe even for a moment that a false flag operation of the US (and most other as well) administration would be unconceivable. It has happened and even Hitler who did not care much about world opinion has staged a false flag operation as a "reason" to attack Poland.

So, disregarding for a moment the 19 Arabs (at least one of them wasn't Arab, BTW) scenario and taking a false flag scenario serious, who could be the culprit? (1) Some small group in the USA, led by big C (C like clever, or what had you thought), in order to drag the USA into an action (Afghanistan, Iraq) they would normally not have started. (2) A secret service outside the USA hoping for the same sequence of events, either with the intention to help their own country (Mossad, for instance) or (3) with the intention to damage the USA (that could be the KGB hoping to push the USA into the Afghanistan quagmire; or the Chinese counterpart of the KGB).

So we have several people/groups who could hope to gain from 9/11 and the later sequence of events.

If I was among the few chosed by big C or KGB or Mossad what would I have done?. As much as necessary to trigger US "re"action but as little as possible to avoid blowing the job. Two missiles with conventional explosives, one against one tower (could be Chicago, or even the WTC) for the commercial and human lives damage and one against the White House or, if that's too small a target, the Pentagon, for the damage to the American soul. If the group I would have worked for was a pro/inside USA group the amount of explosives carried would have been smaller than if I would have worked for the KGB, but that's just a detail.

I wouldn't have made it too easy for the police, but 2 or 3 fingerprints and bits of DNA at the later found launch sites would have helped the police to trace some never to be found perpetrators who had shown Arab passports in Motels or at Airports. That would have been enough, easy to implement, and difficult to spot.

I would have avoided as much as possible (1) any complication of the plan, (2) any dependence of success upon events I had not under full control and (3) I would have used the minimum of people knowing the plan. In particular, I would not have included Bush among the conspirators. He only would have been a liability for success. His role would have been restricted to the useful (in this context) idiot (in general).

Looking at the sequence of events, the conspirators in this scenario would have been incredibly stupid for staging such a complicated story needing many years of preparation (long before Bush became president). Arabs training flying aircrafts; waiting for a morning with enough Arabs bording aircrafts; hoping that no uninformed general of the airforce would react too quickly; hijacking four aircrafts but using only two of them (in some conspiracy theories); and so on.

All these scenarios simply are outrageously improbable and would involve too many people and too many loose ends. The planners would have to be one the one hand incredibly stupid, in general, to hope to get away with a much too complicated plan and, on the other hand, to be incredibly clever, in detail, to be able to plot all that.

It simply makes no sense when thinking it through.

Just one more instance that makes me doubt the critical thinking ability of those convinced by one of the conspiracy theories. Let us look a Building 7 as one of the prime examples of conspiracy theorists. Why include building 7? Would that have been the straw to break the camels back? The USA would have turned the other cheek with a hole in the Pentagon and the two main towers downed? But Tower 7 would have set them on a revenge course. Think just for a moment: Tower 7 adds nothing in effect but adds a lot of work in preparation and adds some more possibilities to be found out. No one in her right frame of mind would have included Tower 7 in the plan (and that includes of course the 19 Arabs for whom that was windfall but not part of the plan).

Or do you seriously think that when everything was thought through, big C would have suggested a series letter to the owners of surrounging buildings: "Dear Sir, for reasons that I am not at liberty to disclose to you now, the two main WTC towers will burn and fall at a not too far away date. If you think it could be a financial gain to you to get your building scrapped at the same big event, we would be ready to give you more details for a considerable cut of your profit."

But perhaps the whole series event was actually staged by the owner of building 7 who thought he could get away with his plan to scrap his building by explosion if the focus of attention of police and press was on the other three buildings. But I think not even Little Hawk would consider that conspiracy theory worth of his attention.

If the whole story was much less complicated than it is I'd seriously consider an alternative view as possible. But as it is, the puzzle pieces don't fall into place when seriously considering another than the official story. Some bits of the official story too are bound to be wrong, some people may have even reasons to lie about details, but it is the only big scenario that makes sense.

I'm fond of conspiracy theories for they are a good area for research. One of my students writes his dissertation (PhD thesis) about conspiracy theories, who believes in which theory and whether there is pattern among the believers. I'll see his first presentation of his data at a congress sometime in May and I'm looking forward to it.

Perhaps he has even a good theory why people believe in such theories and who does more than others (females?, young people?, religious people?, people with a distrust in science?, politically left?,...). I don't know yet. (Though I'd bet that the believers would score fairly high on the Magical Ideation Scale)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:51 PM

Royston, you tell me how the cores were built. And explain to me how the pictures and videos I saw of them being built were fabricated.

By the way, did you happen to look at any of the pictures, videos, and blueprints I posted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM

Who knows? There are a vast number of possibilities. I've never said that I know what happened, because I don't. I merely think it quite possible that some things happened which have been covered up, and I'd like to see further serious investigations done in that direction, because there are a number of very odd things about 911.

Like you, Wolfgang, I doubt that George W. Bush would have been included in the members of a conspiracy hatched by people within his administration, because he would have served much better as, to put it in your words, "a useful idiot" who did not know or understand what was going on.

I think it far more likely that Dick Cheney and some other individuals at a high level would have been directly involved, but not George Bush.

I think these gentlemen are of the "you've got to break a few eggs to make an omelet" school of thought...that is, they are willing to sacrifice a number of innocent lives in order to achieve a much larger strategic objective that they feel will benefit a greater cause they also think is a good cause.

If so, they have a lot of company among the political leaders of both past and present. Most successful (and unsuccessful) leaders of powerful nations have a strong element of ruthlessness in their makeup.

I would think that the best reason for using passenger airliners would be to get the ordinary public to be as upset as possible by:

1. a spectacular visual demonstration on nation-wide TV
2. the tremendous fear that it would spread in ordinary people, because it's much more frightening to imagine that your airliner may be hijacked than that a cruise missile may be shot into some skyscraper.

It makes the incident much more personal, and it stirs outrage over the helpless passengers trapped on the airplanes.

Outrage is the best possible emotion for stirring a public to support a foreign war. Hitler knew that. Any leader who wants to start a war knows that. Always work on the angle that will most outrage your public, and they will support the country going to war over it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 01:59 PM

Oh my god. I didn't see this before my last post...

The steel box-beams (that I think you are seeing and mistaking for the entire core structure) are just an element of the core structure. They rose up on the outside of, or were integrated into, the core-walls. I would need to check, but I would expect that these boxes were also filled with re-bar and concrete as the pouring progressed upwards. The box-beams are NOT the beginning and end of the core structure, there is an awful lot more to it than that. It is a reinforced concrete structure - even probably inside the boxes that have caused you so much confusion.

Royston, have you looked at any of the pictures, videos, or blueprints I've provided here in this thread? I don't know how you could possibly have seen them and still be pursuing this line of idiocy. There may have been concrete involved long after the actual load bearing structure was built, but the concrete had nothing whatever to do with what gave the core it's structural integrity. In the pictures and the videos, there is no concrete involved whatever while the structure is being built from the ground up. It may have been added later, but it was not integral to the structure of the cores.

If you keep hammering on about concrete without having seen the pictures, videos, and blueprints, you really are embarrassing yourself in ways you can't even imagine right now, because everyone else who has looked at them can see what a fool you're making of yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:06 PM

There probably isn't one person in 100,000 who ever has looked at those pictures, videos, and blueprints, Carol. ;-) But they all have a strong opinion about it regardless.

Most people just don't have enough time for this stuff. They're too busy doing other things, more immediate things.

And those few who do have enough time for it can't do anything about it, anyway...because they'd have to convince the other 999,999 people about it first before anything would happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:19 PM

Here is a picture of one of the cores as it's being built, Royston. Show me the concrete...

http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911/images/pagemaster/wtc2small_1.jpg


Here is a cross section photograph of one of the columns. Show me the concrete and rebar...

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/docs/corebase1.jpg


Here is a thorough explanation of how the cores were built...

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/arch/core.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:21 PM

It doesn't take any more time to look at a photograph than it does to type in a post and make a fool of oneself, LH, but I guess some people are suckers for punishment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Royston
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:24 PM

CarolC

I have looked at all the available pictures and blueprints, they show the construction of a reinforced concrete core. I have seen such construction literally hundreds of times.

You are looking at something that you don't understand.

You are simply, completely wrong. There is nothing more to say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:31 PM

Interesting stuff, Carol. I looked at it.

You know why 99% of people engage in a conversation or a discussion? They do it to talk.

Not to listen.

They do it to send out, not to take in.

And therein lies the continual problem of the general lack of real human interpersonal communication.

I've seen that in a lot of marriages, families, and other relationships too. It basically becomes a case of two or more human solitudes, all busily broadcasting their own reality out like a radio station, but consciously being aware of receiving very little in return (outside of something they can immediately react to with further strenuous broadcasting of their own story.

Eventually that results in a breakdown of the relationship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:33 PM

Do you have a link to some of those pictures you speak of, Royston?


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM

When I think about what might be the truth in a complex series of events, I don't go down to single bits of facts or theories for at least two reasons. The main reason is of course that I do not understand enough to be able to judge for myself who is right with one particular argument. The next reason is that I do not expect every detail to be correct or each theory why something happened to be the best theory even in what I think is the most reasonable story line. I try to look at the whole picture and what makes most sense of it.

As a scientist, I would expect you to use the scientific method. I would expect you to first ask the question - "what happened on 9/11 and in the days leading up to 9/11", and then I would expect you to ask all questions that would help you arrive at an answer. As a scientist, I would not expect you to determine, before any inquiry took place, what you believed happened, and then only pursue those lines of inquiry that supported your belief. But this has been the nature of what passes for official investigation so far.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:35 PM

Were is the concrete in the pictures, Royston?


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 02:37 PM

Also, Royston, explain to me how the structure I just showed you pictures of, all questions of concrete aside, could have failed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Royston
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:12 PM

CarolC,

The picture you show (black and white) of some steelwork is at such an early stage of construction, they weren't even above lobby level!. I told you that I did not know whether the box-beams were concrete-filled, I said that they probably were, this being a normal construction method.

That the core had a steel *frame* is not disputed - what do you imagine is meant by "steel reinforced structure"?

But tell me this - if they made liftshafts and stairwells and corridors without poured concrete, does that not shoot your arguments down? If the core had no curtain walls to protect it from fire and blast?

The core has sweet FA to with the collapse anyway - as I explained to you - the floors and exterior load-bearing columns were cut, the floors were unsupported, the fire degraged the remaining load bearing steel when the floors started to collapse they tore down the building around them and including whatever core structure was there.

I know that this may come as a shock, but 1,300ft concrete or steel or jam cores that were designed to be held up by, while holding up, a mutually supportive structure (of floors and exernal columns) won't survive the floors and columns being torn down around it.

Whatever the core was made from, it was buggered when the planes crashed - because people weren't able to escape through it.

Now I am not getting drawn any further into your private hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM

You're trying to use verbal sleight of hand to avoid the real question, Royston.   The structure I showed you a picture of continued in that way all the way to the top of the building. I have already provided pictures of its construction at much higher levels. How would a structure like that one, with massive steel columns that are welded together to form continuous columns from the bottom to the top of the buildings, and that are connected together with steel I beams going crosswise at regular intervals, all welded together to form the kind of massive steel cage that you see in those pictures, how would such a structure fail?


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:34 PM

Specifically, tell me how such a structure, in all of the floors below the level of the airplane crashes, could have failed (how many was that, 80?, 90?). Explain how that happens, please.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Royston
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:41 PM

CarolC, I am not using any sleight of anything.

I told you how the structure failed on 8 March at 10:39am

The angle braces that hold the floor trusses to the core structure are the weakest links - the ones involved in the fire failed. That started the collapse. The weight of the collapsing upper section overwhelmed everything below it, a combination of the falling debris and the undamaged floor slabs tearing away at the fabric of the core structure, explains everything that you see in all the photos and videos of the collapses.

It's that simple.

The core - whatever fantasies you hold for it - is dependent on the floor trusses and external beams, as they are dependent on the core.

What could have withstood the collapse of the surrounding structures? You say that the core had no concrete, it was just steelwork. So that's answered your question then, hasn't it? How could it have stayed up unsupported?

I am coming up against the same problems that others have experienced it. You just aren't listening to anything other than the voices in your head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:56 PM

That makes no sense, Royston. How far did the sections that were above the plane crashes fall? How much downward momentum did they have? How much force did they exert in their fall? How much upward thrust was provided by the rest of the building below the sites of the crashes? How much downward force were the cores of the buildings designed to take?

If a failure of the "angle braces" cause the collapse, how did this effect the core structure below the level of the plane crashes? If it was a failure of the angle braces, then the floor sections surrounding the cores would simply have fallen away from the core structures and would not have effected them at all. The floors inside the core structures were not integral with the floors of the area outside of the core structures. They were completely independent of them, so their falling would not have impacted the floors inside the core structures.

The scenario you describe, with the angle braces failing, does not support the hypothesis that the reinforced steel cage construction of the core could have been caused to fail as a consequence. If it could be supported by that, the people at NIST wouldn't have admitted that they can't explain why the buildings fell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 03:57 PM

Alfred Russel Wallace and the flat earth controversy

I don't know whether this link will allow you to see the article, so I'll provide some quotes:

Wallace had enraged Hampden in March 1870 by claiming victory in a £500 wager to provide proof of the earth's rotundity. Notoriously, Hampden publicly declared that the earth was a flat, circular disk surrounded by ice

Wallace was to rue the decision to engage a crank until the end of his life. Hampden followed him with letters, "documents" etc. the rest of his life.

Wallace later realised to his cost that 'paradoxers can never be convinced' .

'Paradoxers' only follow you with more and more of what seems true to them and never give up. Do not enter any debate with them. They believe in winning an argument by the quantity of material they collect.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:01 PM

I see you are not a scientist, Wolfgang.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Confere
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:23 PM

peruse this


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:23 PM

For those, like Wolfgang, who don't understand science, here's how a scientific inquiry would go...


Question: What happened on 9/11 and during the period leading up to 9/11?

Evidence: Airplanes flew into the Twin Towers. There were fires. The buildings were designed to withstand being hit by airplanes and the resulting fires. The buildings fell.


Hypothesis 1: The fires caused the buildings to fall.

Question 1: Was it possible for fires to cause the buildings to fall?

Question 1b: How would the fires cause the buildings to fall?

Question 2: If it was possible for the fires to cause the buildings to fall, is there evidence that this is what happened?

Question 2b: What is the evidence that fire caused the buildings to fall?

Question 3: Are there any other possible explanations for what caused the buildings to fall other than fire?

Question 3b: If there are any other possible explanations for what caused the buildings to fall, what are they?


Hypothesis 1b: Failure of the angle braces caused the buildings to fall (this hypothesis also presumes that it was fire that caused the buildings to fall).

Question 1: Was it possible for the buildings to fall as a result of the angle braces failing?

Question 1b: If it was possible for the buildings to fall because of a failure of the angle braces, how did this happen?

Question 1c: If it was possible for the buildings to fall because of a failure of the angle braces, what evidence is there that this is what happened?

Question 2: Are there any other possible explanations for how the buildings could have fallen?

Question 2b: If there are any other possible explanations for how the buildings could have fallen, what are they?


Hypothesis 2: The buildings were brought down through the use of controlled demolition.

Question 1: Was it possible for the buildings to have been brought down through the use of controlled demolition?

Question 1b: If it was possible for the buildings to have been brought down through the use of controlled demolition, what are the possible ways this could have been done?

Question 2: Is there any evidence that the buildings were brought down through the use of controlled demolition?

Question 3: Are there any other possible explanations for how the buildings could have fallen, and if so, what are they?


Further questions: Given all of the possible scenarios that could account for the buildings falling, for which scenarios do we have the most evidence?


This is how the scientific method works. If any of the lines of inquiry that are generated by the hypotheses do not lead anywhere, then those lines of inquiry, and the hypotheses they are intended to support, are abandoned. So far, the line if inquiry into how the core structures could have failed has not lead anywhere, either in this thread, or in the official "investigations". So as of now, the hypothesis that it was fire that caused the buildings to fall is not supported by the evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:28 PM

Bill D, all of the actual physical evidence contradicts what that page is saying. And those pictures looking through the buildings don't show the steel reinforced cage that comprised the load bearing structure of the core. They only show the elevator shafts. This is because the steel reinforced core is a latticework of steel and can be seen through. The elevator shafts cannot be seen through.

Again, I refer you to the blueprints of the core structures, the pictures of the core structures as they are being built, and the videos that actually show the core structures being built. And also, the part in the video where they say that the perimeter structures were designed to transfer load to the core structures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Confere
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:35 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center#Structural_design

*shrug*

"The core of the towers housed the elevator and utility shafts, restrooms, three stairwells, and other support spaces. The core –a combined steel and concrete structure–[28][29] of each tower was a rectangular area 87 by 135 feet (27 by 41 m) and contained 47 steel columns running from the bedrock to the top of the tower."


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:47 PM

What is that supposed to prove, Bill? The people who built the towers say that the core was designed to support more than 50% of the building's load, and that the perimeter supports were designed to transfer load to the cores. They say that the core was designed to be the primary load bearing support in the buildings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Confere
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 04:56 PM

It shows that some, who seem to know, insist there WAS concrete, to counter some who claim there was NOT concrete.

Put them all in a room together with some guys who worked on it....pouring, or NOT pouring concrete.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:12 PM

I took a quick look at this thread when it started. An almost equally quick look now confirms where I thought it would go. Wolfgang, you're spot on. Royston, you'll never win an argument in this particular company. Be content that you're correct, and move on.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:24 PM

One thing for sure, and this is a strictly neutral comment...

If this thread had legs it would qualify for the Olympics...track and field competition.

I check in through the day and am amazed at the number of posts and verbiage that it generates over a given period of time.

If all of that yielded some kind of tangible reward, that would be great. But it won't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

I never said there was no concrete, Bill. I said that whatever concrete there was, was not a part of the structural support. In other words, concrete may have provided support for people in the building, and furniture, etc, but it was not an important part of what gave the buildings their structural integrity in terms of their ability to remain standing. And all of the physical evidence proves that to be true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Firefighters for 9/11 Truth: Press Conference
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Mar 10 - 05:56 PM

I see some people think they can make a cogent argument by doing nothing but sniping from the sidelines. They are mistaken. Such people haven't got a leg to stand on.


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