Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From:
Joe Offer
Date: 22 Feb 15 - 12:33 AM
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 08:53 AM
"foolish to argue with a person whose dogmatic views are impossible to shift, "
My views are based on twenty years of working with MacColl and many more examining and putting into practice his ideas on singing - not in passing on second and third hand gossip Vic
I've spent the last year digitising, and indexing the 200-odd tapes of The Critics Group meetings, which show MacColl's developing ideas on folk song over a period of nearly 20 years - we used them in the two, hour-long programmes on his work in the hope somebody would respond to them - if only to disprove them - plenty of response from Ireland - nothing from the U.K. to date.
According to what was said at the John Snow meetings there was no basis for agreement between Davenport and MacColl nearly fifty years ago - Ewan was claiming folk song to be an art needing to be taken seriously - Davenport dismissed the idea as bourgeois nonsense, art being only for the educated classes.
The John Snow meeting was (deliberately, I believe) sabotaged by Davenport before it could reach any conclusion, let alone a plan of action.
Of the speakers at that meeting, Bert buried himself in his own performance work and his broadcasting, Campbell - well - Campbell continued to do what he did, and Davenport was still shouting those who didn't agree with him down thirty-odd years later.
MacColl went on to produce an unsurpassed body of work with newer singers - thirty years after his death that work remains undicussable because of the amount of trivial garbage surrounding it (which you have added to - well done!)
I was an admirer of Fred Dallas - still have all his magazines (now digitised) when we was making sense.
Up to around ten years ago we had a falling out over an article he wrote in The Living Tradition, where he was still ploutering around at the "Jimmy Miller" level of discussion - he had the grace to admit that MacColl's name change was as of littler significance as his own change from Fed Dallas to Karl - still an issue with you lot, it would appear.
Earlier in one of these discussions, Derek Schofield suggested that MacColl's work would find a welcome home at Cecil Sharp House
I thought - what a good idea, until I remembered who the President of EFDSS was (remind me of how Shirley Collins worded her summing up of Ewan's contribution to folk song in her 'tribute' to his 100th!!) - so I came to the conclusion 'why bother?'
We have had an unprecedentedly positive response to our two programmes here in Ireland - hopefully it will be more use here than over on your side.
If you wish to call me dogmatic, feel free - at least I am what I am on the basis of up-close experience and not on the stuff fit only for prurient gossip-columns
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 09:26 AM
I looked at the Mudcat site the other day & could find no trace of anything to do with EM. I have looked from time to time over the past (anniversary) period & quite frankly was delighted that it seemed hostilities had ceased.
Some hopes- I looked today and the acrimony and hostility is worse than ever.
Like Dick, I respect EM for the songs and for recognising so early the value of the tradition of these islands, and doing something about it.
I did meet EM a few times & attended a few of his singing workshops. I remember one in particular somewhere in Goodge Street. Anyway I never enjoyed the 'Singers' Club,' nor his singing nor particulaly his attitude to ordinary people- THIS IRONIC CONSIDERING HIS POLITICAL VIEWS! Most of his listeners in the 60s were desperate to learn from an alleged authority on the tradition, but many like me were bitterly disappointed. I won't expand on that as I have no intention of adding fuel to the flames.
However, I have known Bob Davenport for about 50 years now, and while I know as well as anyone that Bob has been hard work at times, his contribution to a totally different perception of the 'tradition' has been huge, and I bow to no-one in respect for the man.
I have been told that as a musician, I have an ability to 'get through' to a difficult audience, even of non-folkies- this stood me in good stead while playing in BARS (not folk clubs!) in West Cork for several years.
If that is so, I take it as a huge compliment, but I got SO much from Bob in that respect, as have so many others, that I cannot but take exception to the inherent acrimony in Mr Carroll's posts.
I think Vic Smith and Dick have made some very sensible and objective comments about all this- it's interesting to hear the historical stuff from the 50s and early 60s from folk older than me (there aren't many of them!) but surely it can be recognised that EM and BD are two major figures in the revival and leave it at that?
There is certainly no justification for the kind of scurrilous raking up of the past practised by Mr Carroll, who I believe is an intelligent man, and unless he really means to cause offence (?) it's time it all came to an end, it's not a war, we have enough of those. Just have a discussion if that's what you want, but spare us the rancour, please...
A good rule has always been that if you can't say something sensible, don't say anything at all, and if you can't do it without insulting people, the same rule applies to the Nth degree.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 09:48 AM
on weds 11 november 1987, Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger did a concert at the Phoenix Theatre in Leicester, admission 4 00 sterling, I did the support act for them.
after and between breaks of the concert we chatted for some considerable time back stage, the conversation was very interesting, I remember Peggy saying to me, how they went to the states and there were lots of song being written, but she was not aware of much in the ways of songs being written in the UK, I was astonished and mentioned Peter Bond and Bill Caddick JezLowe, she appeared to have never heard of Peter Bond or Bill Caddick or Jez.
they seemed to me out of touch with the uk folk scene, I realised why this was afterwards, they were busy doing gigs [generally without a support] and busy running the singers club, they did not appear to attend many folk festivals in the uk or go to many other clubs other than their own, i think they had unintentionally isolated themselves.
Ewan was polite and complimented me on my singing, and he said to me that he could not do what I did, he would find it too lonely, being on the road on his own,He said that he did a bit in the early days before he was with Peggy, but generally he would be in the company of Bert Lloyd . They gave an excellent evenings entertainment,I remember someone from the audience requested Englands Motorways and as far as I recollect Ewan obliged.
Everything that I have said on this thread and in this post is the truth, I have the poster to prove it,[ in case Jim does not believe me again] I am not a liar.I have said many times on this forum, that i thought MacColl was a good songwriter and performer,
I have said that I think his legacy will be his songs, and that to say his influence is pernicious was incorrect, because his songs have been a wonderful addition to the folk repertoire, I do understand What Shirley was driving at which I think was a reference to his leadership of the critics group[ yes he was the leader, Jim]but even that had its good points, in my opinion mainly the improvement of singing technique., breathing exercises and the importance of presentation.
I do not think he sounded like a traditional singer, his singing was good but in my opinion it had little continuity to singers like Harry Cox
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 10:04 AM
"There is certainly no justification for the kind of scurrilous raking up of the past practised by Mr Carroll,"
For crying out loud Jim
Muckraking on MacColl dates back over half a century and continues thirty years after his death - how about a word on that?
I gave a description of good 'ol Bob's behaviour a few years ago, in this case towards a woman fellow performer - not a peep of protest - probably because she sn't a big enough superstar.
Personally I don't care who liked or disliked MacColl's singing, particularly from those who find behaviour like Bob's acceptable, or at the very least - unworthy of comment except to say that commenting on there is no justification in drawing attention to such behaviour - now, if it were MacColl, that would be a different matter altogether!!
You want to mend some fences - stop mud-snorkling i the middle of the twentieth.
JIm Carroll
]
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 10:05 AM
Whoops
Should read - twentieth century.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 10:42 AM
i shouldn't worry about Jim calling you a talentless moron. he's not a good judge of these things.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 11:09 AM
I gave a description of good 'ol Bob's behaviour a few years ago, in this case towards a woman fellow performer - not a peep of protest - probably because she sn't a big enough superstar"
no comment from me, because its not bloody relevant to the thread, this thread is about Ewan, it is not about Alex Campbell, Nixon, or Bob Davenport or John Brune.
I was not present at these events[thank god].
I am not commenting on anything that is not first hand, I have given 2 first hand anecdotes.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 11:32 AM
" because its not bloody relevant to the thread, this thread is about Ewan"
Yes it bloody well is when it comes to discussing Maccoll's contribution to the revival and the five decades of abuse he has received from people like Davenport.
You are quick enough to invent a scenario for MacColl having made a flippant remark on the singing of his artistic partner and her brother, yet you can't bring yourself around to even commenting on the behaviour of one of MacColl's most spiteful critics
The behaviour of all the others you listed also impinge on the part MacColl played in the revival - you have had their behaviour described and your onl;ly response to most of them is to leap on your chair and scream in outrage that anybody should criticise them.
You - like most others here, are suffering from a nasty dose of the double standards.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 06 Feb 15 - 03:29 PM
I have not invented any scenario,
you are the one who invented the scenario here and I quote from your post "Your claim is little more than a spiteful summing up of a joke - typical of the snide attacks of MacColl"
you have just invented a scenario.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 01:04 AM
"Your claim is little more than a spiteful summing up of a joke"
Is exactly what it it
I've given you MacColl's attitude to American singing
I've pointed out that he wold never attack the work of his wife and brother-in-law to a stranger in public
Of all prominent singers, MacColl hs done more to display the link between American and British songs and ballads (see 'The Long Harvest', 'Blood and Roses', 'Two Way Trip'......)
You chose to describe what was most certainly a joke on his part as being ", my reaction was to think who is a pompous, boorish, patronising ill mannered, old fart"
That. as far as I am concerned, is as spiteful as it gets (though maybe not, considering the amount of grave-dancing that has gone on recently to celebrate is hundredth)
Yours is little more than run-of-the-mill spitefulness - fairly typical.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 05:35 AM
Jim, on occasions he was boorish pompous and patronising, that was my first hand experience, Shirley Collins also confirmed that, two people have had the same experience.
that does not alter the fact that he wrote some excellent songs and was a very professional performer., his contribution to the radio ballads was of the highest quality.
you continue to invent scenarios, his conversation with me was not meant as a joke, I was there you were not,I remember clearly how he talked, first hand experience Jim ,not one of your hero worshipping MacColl fantasies
at the time I knew nothing about the singers club and their policies, but his boorish remarks adressed to a 19 year old teenager, are bang in line with some of his other behaviour that has been confirmed by Shirley Collins, Peggys behaviour in the LongJohn Baldry incident is another one, which she now has the grace to admit was rude and ill mannered.
first hand anecdotes, of which I have related 2 ,one favourable to MacColl the other not, get over it Jim
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 07:14 AM
"Jim, on occasions he was boorish pompous and patronising,"
I never found him any of those things in all the time I knew him
You seem to speak with some authority on the subject - you once said way back that you met him once - it seems top have swelled a bit since then.
The conclusion of your nasty story is exactly, what .... that he did n't like American singing, that he didn't like Peggy or Mike's singing.... what's the point of it?
I really have no interest i your lip service to his abilities as either a singer or a songwriter, they are all accepted facts by enough people to be superfluous here - just lip-service.
My interest in MacColl is in the unique work he did with other singer, both in scope and in opening up new ideas of approach.
He spent ten years developing those ideas with less experienced singers while those who were telling nasty stories like yours were getting on with their careers - thirty years after his death, those same people are still telling those nasty stories, and still getting on with their careers it is that fact I find fascinating
Earlier on, I was linked to three British folk superstars singing a tribute to MacColl - a piece of schmaltz on par with that dreadful rendition of Eric Bogle's anti-war song in tribute to those who died in World War One, at the Albert Hall.... only this time, read from a crib-sheet - the tribute was so sincere that the singers hadn't even bothered to learn the song.
If this is representative of the singing of folk-song is in Britain today, a new approach such as that of MacColl's is very much needed yet, despite this, it is still necessary to clamber over a shit-mountain to discuss new ideas.
You want to discuss MacColl as an individual - fine, discuss him in context of the individuals he was surrounded by - Bob Davenport and his meeting-wrecking behaviour, John Brune's efforts to wreck a programme which helped change the laws concerning the living conditions of Britain's Travelling people.... and all those clever-clever stories, such as the folkie boast about managing to get slugs posted through the MacColl household's letter-box... all mind-stretching stuff and all here in one form or another, wheeled out for this 100th.
The man has been dead for three decades, yet his presence is still being felt - through people who listened to what he had to say and set up classes of their own, or though the albums of his singing still being issued, in some cases, half a century after they were recorded (a box set of four due out shortly)
If any of MacColl's snideswipers can come up with anything approaching a legacy of that sort, maybe their nasty stories and spurious claims might carry some weight - though even then, I doubt it).
These arguments are only of value as a reminder of what a somewhat unpleasant snake-pit some partsA of the British revival once was, and, in some cases, still is.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 07:40 AM
Jim you only succeed in digging yourself further into a big hole.
this thread is first hand anecdotes about MacColl, stick to the topic, it is not about alex campbell, nixon, davenport, brune, if you cant do that, do us a favour., and start a different thread call it scurrilous gossip about anyone who begged to differ with MacColl.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 07:45 AM
Alternatively a title that might please you, "only pleasant first hand anecdotes about my old friend MacColl"
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 07:56 AM
"only pleasant first hand anecdotes about my old friend MacColl"
Some would certainly be welcome, but I would settle for verified ones in context to the rest of the shit that was, and still is flying about Campbell, Nixon, Brune were all part of that shit-slinging.
THis thread is about MacColl - you are happy to join in the kicking match until you are pinned down to actually justifying your grave-dancing, at which point yopu squeal "thread-drift"
I askk again (but don' expect an answer)
"The conclusion of your nasty story is exactly, what .... that he didn't like American singing, that he didn't like Peggy or Mike's singing.... what's the point of it?"
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 10:47 AM
i'm very sorry to see two people who care about folk music scrapping like this. there should be a bond between you.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 10:56 AM
"there should be a bond between you."
Not without my going out to get myself a bulletproof vest Al - don't take well to threats of violence.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 11:11 AM
Dick wouldn't threaten you with violence. a misunderstanding surely.
you haven't threatened him, have you Dick?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 12:11 PM
For crying out loud! Can somebody stop all the pushing and shoving out there?
Yes, I daresay MacColl had his faults. I didn't know him that well, and I suspect that if I'd known him any better we wouldn't have got on. On the other hand, what creative genius didn't leave a whole pile of upset acolytes behind them? EG., Woody Guthrie, an alcoholic who stank to high heaven because he never washed, who ignored his wives and kids, and made life hell for all the other Almanacs because of his continual bickering and arguing. Does any of that detract from the brilliance of his song writing? Does it heck as like.
However, what I came here to say was this. MacColl was a pathfinder and a trailblazer. He didn't get everything right, in fact I can't think of a single aspect of his thinking that I don't disagree with to some greater or lesser extent - usually greater.
Nevertheless, it is the prerogative of great pioneers to get things wrong. That is because they gave us an intellectual base from which to move things along.
In MacColl's case, his theories can be summed up as consisting of two elements:-
1. Modern society has deprived ordinary people of the means of artistic expression. In particular, in place of the folksongs, which our forebears sang, we are served up with a tissue of tin pan alley fluff, which effectively keeps the workers subdued and subservient.
2. A reawakening of lower class musical tradition is essential to the formation of working class consciousness and identity, and therefore to the realisation of the socialist revolution.
A stark evocation like might to some people make MacColl sound like a bit of a crank, especially if they're unacquainted with Marxist theory. MacColl was anything but a crank and, for anyone interested in exploring further, they can check an article of mine at http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/heaney.htm#intro . It is completely non-critical, and was written to explain one small facet of MacColl's work. Nevertheless, there is little else that I can recommend and, if you read it you'll be at least as wise as I am.
To continue. I contend that, far from either of MacColl's ambitions being realised, we are now living in a world where the vast majority of mass media entertainment is dismissable as puerile pap; where working class consciousness is at an all time low ebb; where the banking crisis and other attendant ills of capitalism have knocked the stuffing out of everyone except the mega-super-stinking rich; where fascism and Islamophobia now stalk the length and breadth of Europe and where one fifth of the world's children will not live to see the age of five because of the greed of capitalism.
Meanwhile, instead of trying to apply the lessons of MacColl, we spend acres of cyberspace arguing over whether he was rude or arrogant or egotistical or pompous or patronising, or whether he changed his name from Thingybob to Somebody Else.
You know what? I don't give a flunkey's muck. Remind me that Tchaikovsky was a closet homosexual, who used to cruise rent boys around the streets of Moscow, and I'll remind you of the beauty and passion which permeates his music.
What does concern me is that, in trying to breach the cultural and sociological impasse in which we now find ourselves, might there be some little spark or sparks of wisdom in MacColl's thinking that we could learn from and which we could use to fight the very dilemmas which he himself tried to fight?
I believe those sparks are still there, and I believe that only by reasoned discussion and analysis can we hope to apply the lessons, which he sought to teach, to the present situation.
Anybody up for a reasoned discussion?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 01:17 PM
"you haven't threatened him, have you Dick?"
Yup - certainly did - warned more what would happen if I ever came to his side of the country.
"What does concern me is that it seems to be considered fair play by the pro-Ewan lobby to disparage those with whom he fell out in his lifetime, some of whom I do know."
Sorry Bryan - missed this earlier - was away in Dublin listening to excellent singing at a club run by excellent young singers all between the ages of 20 to thirty, most singing like old-masters; best night I've spent in a club for many, many years - all very heartening.
I really have no intention of 'disparaging' anybody who fell out with MacColl - so far, the flak has all been coming from the other direction - as ever.
Personally, I'm rather tired of the same old, same old stories, most of them unsubstantiated and virtually of them dating back several decades prior to Ewan's death thirty years ago.
I have pointed out the situation that has existed on the club scene from the very beginning by drawing attention to some of attitudes and actions of people I believe should have known better, and as far as I'm concerned, still should - I honestly believe the scene would have been far healthier than it now is had a degree of co-operation taken place between those in the position to make things happen, rather than the snide and backbiting which has become commonplace.
All water under the bridge now - I've never been interested in fighting battles on behalf of somebody who has been dead for thirty odd years - much more interested in finding out if the work we did in the Critics Group can be of use elsewhere
We have been left with a large number of recorded examples of unique work carried out on singing which, I believe, could be of value to people still interested in singing folk songs well.
The magnificent response we have had to the two programmes on MacColl, largely covering his philosophy and practical ideas on singing folk songs, has indicated that there is probably an interest in Ireland and virtually none in the U.K.
If that is the true situation, a pity, but fine by me.
Our West Clare collection of 400 + songs goes up on the Clare County Library website at the end of next month.
If they are interested and if nobody else is, we will ask them to take our entire rather large collection of field recordings of singing, storytelling and interviews, along with the lectures and radio programmes, etc we have amassed, and help us find a home for it, maybe by assisting in setting up a traditional song and story study centre - we will also bequeath them our also rather large library of song, lore and social history.
Traditional music is thriving here at the present time, with thousands of youngsters taking it up and playing it, from well to magnificent, without being forced to compromise what they are playing to please the music or tourist industries - it seems that hardly a night passes without our being able to turn the television or radio on and find both entertaining and thoughtful programmes on the traditional arts - up to now, song has lagging edgetting improving (certainly, if last Sunday and Tuesday night is anything to go by).
Our County Library is playing a major part in the popularisation of traditional music' - MUSIC OF CLARE who knows, maybe they'll help with the song/story side of things
It seems odd that Ewan and Walter and Duncan Williamson.... and all the other singers and musicians we've spent much of our lives recording in the U.K. should have to end up in the West of Ireland because there is no interest back home, but there you go
I really can't be arsed fighting The Wars of the Roses (some of this unpleasantness seems to go back that far) every time Ewan's name is mentioned or each time somebody asks what a folk song is and where they can find one.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 01:21 PM
Thank you Fred - most articulate statement so far
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 01:27 PM
Fred, as you are undoubtedly aware, Ihave priased MacColl as a songwriter and performer, I have related two first hand anecdotes which are both positive and negative., which provide a banced view
I am not going to waste any more time on Jim Carrolls nonsense, quite frankly i do not know what hes talking bout, as for violence i have better things to do than embark on a journey of 150 miles to talk to a brick wall, there are seven pubs in Ballydehob, you are welcome Jim any time, come down and smoke the pipe of peace, Jim.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 01:45 PM
Thanks Jim. I've just realised that I forgot to mention Freeborn Man. I still haven't found the time to listen completely to either programme. However, what I've heard so far seems to centre around the psychology of MacColl and his ideas on the performance of folksong. If so, and I stress my current ignorance, then the programmes only go a certain part of the way to solving the impasse I was talking about.
Whatever, they are obviously light years ahead of the "Oh-God-
-what-a-terrible-man-that-Ewan-MacColl-was. Him-trying-to-lay-down-the- law-about-how-we-should-sing-and-all." approach which seems to get worse as the years go by.
Schweik. The question I posed is not whether your view, or anyone else's is positive or negative. It is what can we learn from MacColl that is applicable to the present?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 01:49 PM
here is the original post
Subject: E. MacColl - first-hand trivial anecdotes?
From: GUEST,redmax - PM
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:39 AM
It seems a shame to me that a lot of MacColl threads tend to get so heated, and that a lot of assertions are made about him (as opposed to his legacy) by people who never met him. I was struck by a posting in a recent thread where someone mentioned the kind of beer he drank. Utterly trivial, I know, but it struck me that it might be diverting to start a thread which doesn't go down the well-trodden path of his name changes, his deserting during the war, etc.
Can anyone who met the man share any recollection they have of him. Did he stand on your foot? If so, did he apologise? Did you find yourself standing at the next urinal to him? Did he talk to you about the weather, the price of fish, the FA cup?
Come on, let's have a nice, fluffy, pointless thread"
ok, that is precisely what i have done, given two contrasting first hand anecdotes, if either jim carroll or anyone else do not like it, go and start your own thread, by all means, start, a thread., that is entirely praise worthy.
BUT that is not what was asked for if you do not like the truth, tough.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 01:53 PM
Schweik. The question I posed is not whether your view, or anyone else's is positive or negative. It is what can we learn from MacColl that is applicable to the present?
start a new thread, Fred, and I will give you an answer.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 01:58 PM
Thank you, Fred, for your clarity in trying to point us to a future accommodation between personal spats and visionary, future possibilities.
I first met Ewan in Glasgow in 1962 when I was a naive 18 year-old (although I knew of him and his work prior to that, thanks to the Ballads Club at Rutherglen Academy, led by my teacher -- the late Norman Buchan). At that point in my life I found him somewhat intimidating, compared to the supportive approach which had resonated with me for the previous 5 years.
But, with hindsight, that was probably more to do with my own personal insecurities and lack of political nous -- coming from a non-political family, and only very recently energised by the Anti-Polaris protests.
For what it's worth, I've become increasingly aware of the value of Ewan MacColl's contribution and importance over these intervening years -- his ability to find the exact focal point for a protest song. (I heard 'Legal/Illegal' sung within the past two weeks and was struck by how relevant it still was -- as well as how clever!): his extraordinary talent for melding words and tune to force real response/emotion from an audience. (I have been present several times when my good friend the late Sheila Stewart silenced the listeners with her heartfelt rendition of 'The Moving-on Song'): and his determination to promote the songs of tradition bearers through his many recordings of their songs.
Point is that I was too immature to have benefited from formats such as The Critics Group, so maybe that's the dividing line?
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 02:33 PM
"Point is that I was too immature to have benefited from formats such as The Critics Group, so maybe that's the dividing line?"
no, its not as simple as that, it is a two way process, the person running the group, needs to be diplomatic and observant, if someone is immature that can be handled in a certain way, people need to be welcomed and encouraged, the blame is not entirely one way.MacOLL was a fine songwriter and a good performer and he was doing his best to help others, but to be fair to him he had no previous experience of how to run a group and quite understandably as can be seen from the acrimonoius break up of the group he made mistakes.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 02:48 PM
Jim
From one of your posts earlier today
"Campbell, Nixon, Brune were all part of that shit-slinging".
You wrote in an earlier post that you never met Malcolm Nixon but you know some people who did. You also referred to an article which suggested that he absconded with the funds of the BBA but said there was nothing to support it. It would appear to me that you are doing exactly the thing that you accuse others of. YOU WERE NOT THERE, YOU DO NOT KNOW.
Re the fact that stories about Ewan go back thirty years that's probably because he hasn't been around lately.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 02:56 PM
GSS -- yes, it could be a two-way process, but given the heated political circumstances of the time, I'm happy to acknowledge that I wasn't ready for the process.
Which doesn't mean that Ewan was essentially wrong, but if you would acknowledge that he had a necessary 'bottom line' for those who would be open-minded enough to work with him, then perhaps we could find an acceptance of his eventual impact for everyone else.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 04:00 PM
"At that point in my life I found him somewhat intimidating,"
Hi Annie
Peggy found him intimidating - she said in our interview with her that she was terrified of him when she first met him (Paula included that in programme one of 'Freeborn Man')
"I was too immature to have benefited from formats such as The Critics Group,"
I doubt it somehow- it really did accommodate for all ages and abilities
Not long after its formation, one of the more experienced members complained that too much time was being taken up by inexperienced singers - Ewan nipped that in the bud fairly sharpish.
By the time I joined, I had several of those 'less experienced' members banging on the door of my bed-sit in Camden Town with offers to help me catch up with the Group work - still brings a lump to the throat.
It sounds like you are flying the 'pass it on' flag in Glasgow from what I have heard of your own workshops.
Just prior to our getting down to work with the producer of Freeborn Man, Paula Carroll, she returned from speaking at a singers weekend somewhere in Scotland (Aberdeen?) - what she heard there set her up as a ballad fanatic for the rest of her life, she claims.
"then the programmes only go a certain part of the way to solving the impasse""
Not really Fred, programme two starts with a discussion with Luke Kelly on his performance (largely technical) and goes on to deal with the technique of voice production, voice and singing exercises, relaxation - you will be fully aware of that side of the work through your Singers Workshop days.
It gets a little more complex with working on Gordon McCulloch, but is still rooted in the need to be able to control your vocal mechanism.
The best of the 'philosophy of singing' work was represented by his analysis of 'Clyde's Water' - the finest I've ever heard.
One of the most important statements was made by piper, Terry Moylan, who compared the attitude towards singing with that towards the bodhran - "everybody thinks they can do it without having to work at it".
Even with two, hour-long programmes, we had to leave out a load of aspects of MacColl's work - no Radio Ballads, none of the work he did with Irish building and road workers (intended to be a major feature for an Irish radio production), no discussion on his albums, nothing on his collecting - not enough time
"YOU WERE NOT THERE, YOU DO NOT KNOW."
Been there - done that Hoot, virtually all those who shit sling at MacColl were not there, so it doesn't seem to be a factor in drawing conclusions about people anyway.
I gave the author and title of the book that commented on Nixon (not an article), I knew Bruce Dunnett quite well, and my wife, (who started her folk life at the Ballad and Blues) tend to talk to each other often and she confirms some of the claims
"fact that stories about Ewan go back thirty years"
The stories about him go back thirty years prior to his death
"start a new thread, Fred, and I will give you an answer."
Why should anybody wish to do that, for all sorts of reasons - the main one being that you can't stop anybody talking about any aspect of the subject they wish just because it makes you uncomfortable - please stop attempting to manipulate this discussion now it has risen above the 'Jimmy Miller' level.
"but to be fair to him he had no previous experience of how to run a group"
Your display of knowledge of this subject is breathtaking - MacColl helped set up and run similar groups in Theatre Workshop - much of the Critics group work was adapted from his work there.
For all his "inexperience" MacColl's work with the Critics created some of the most important innovative work on singing the revival ever produced - feature evenings, historical feature albums, about twenty albums combining poetry and songs, two glorious albums of London songs, one on the period around the rise of Chartism, two great sea albums and six major theatre productions, each with two-week long runs..... all from a bunch of amateurs, most of whom had never trodden a stage before, let alone acted on one.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 04:17 PM
This often happens to me.... I am looking up something that I am researching and I come across something that diverts my attention. This evening I was checking up on something that I had read for an article that I am writing in Bert: The Life and Times of of A.L. Lloyd (Pluto Press 2012 EBN 978-0-7453-3252-9) by Dave Arthur and I came across this - It is another account of that meeting.... It is well worth reading because it gives a well researched account of the meeting culled from people who were there and whose reports have not been heard in this this thread; perhaps contributing to a form of 'historical triangulation' it will help us arrive at a more balanced account than we have heard so far in this thread and it is worth noting that there is no mention of BD setting out to destroy the meeting. It is also useful in that it gives the different approach from MacColl's favoured by Davenport/Reg Hall which has not been given in this thread, but which many people feel has much wider application and usefulness than a narrow, top-down approach which it sought to oppose.
On pages 273 to 275 Dave writes:-
The discussion, or 'The Great Debate' as it is titled in the MacColl/Seeger archive, on the state of the folk revival and where it was going took place at the John Snow public house in Broadwick Street, Soho, another early venue of the Singers' Club. Bert kept away from the potential 'action' on stage (MacColl had been known to threaten to 'bottle' someone at a folk concert) by sitting amongst the audience, from where he made some perceptive contributions. Julie Felix, presumably selected as a prime example of the commercialisation of folk music, had been invited to attend but couldn't (or wisely chose not to) make it. MacColl, who chaired the debate, was deflated when a young woman in the audience told him he was out of order when he got up and started to present his case. She pointed out that, as the Chair, his role was merely to sum up the various points made by the panel.
Alex Campbell, one-time 'husband of convenience' to Peggy Seeger (to get her legally into the country), was the antithesis of MacColl, and represented the Glasgow cowboys, and Jack Elliott and Derroll Adams acolytes. He was once, perhaps generously, described by the singer Allan Taylor as: 'The most important and influential folksinger of the folk song revival in Europe. Admired, respected and loved by his fellow performers and his audiences. An outrageous, hard drinking, hard travelling, hard living man.'
He was from the entertainer end of the folk music spectrum, in MacColl's eyes the shallow end of the folk gene pool, and had a tendency to become maudlin when drunk. He broke down in tears at the meeting and begged forgiveness for his apostasy from the true path, as signposted by MacColl and Bert, and about which MacColl had written in Dallas's magazine Folk Music in November 1963:
The folk song entertainer generally tries to achieve the same sort of audience relationship as the variety and cabaret artist. He tries to maintain an atmosphere of gaiety, he strives to be witty, casual, and, at the right moment, introduces a touch of soulful sadness ... . By applying the performance techniques of the cabaret and variety stages, the singer of folk songs robs his material of much of its vitality, transforms and, more often than not, reduces its special characteristics. The entertainer is required to put himself, or herself, over to the audience; the traditional singer is concerned with putting the songs over.
The entertainer was lumped in with a whole gallery of other figures on whom MacColl, never one to sit on the fence, poured scorn: 'The winsome little cuddly things, the tit-hawkers, the krazy-kollege-kids, the fake hoboes who wear funny hats and cultivate inarticulateness ... and all the rest of the riff-raff that swarm over the body of our folk music.'
Bob Davenport was dismayed at the Scotsman's collapse, having expected in Campbell an ally in the battle against the intellectual appropriation and, as Davenport believed, the misunderstanding of, or ignorance of, the true nature of traditional music, promulgated by MacColl and, perhaps, to a lesser extent by Bert. Davenport saw them as intellectual mediators and arbiters of the communist gospel. An inveterate iconoclast, he believed the music should speak for itself. It should be imbibed, if not with mothers' breast milk, at least in a relaxed, convivial setting, with no lecturing or pontificating to create an artificial barrier between performer and imbiber. Davenport, along with Reg Hall and the Rakes, followed his grandfather's advice on running a social event, and 'kept the kettle boiling' with songs and music. An evening at their Thursday club, the Fox at Islington, was a social event, not a Singers' Club classroom lecture. In 1965 it was described by Stephen Sedley as 'probably the best club in London'.
As we can see and hear from the early photos and recordings of the Eel's Foot sessions, where the MC knew everybody and where to place them, the 'them and us' (performer/audience) demarcation is an artificial concept that frequently didn't exist when these songs were performed in their natural habitat with shared accents, interests and vocabulary. The songs belonged as much to the group as to the individual singer, and all were potentially performers and receivers. Bert and MacColl well understood this, as MacColl said in the Folk Music article: 'The modern urban folksinger is rarely a member of the community in that sense. His audience is made up of strangers or of casual acquaintances about whom he knows little or nothing and whose experiences, accent and social outlook may be very different from his own.'
It was this central question of how to present folk song in this new, artificial situation that was at the root of much of the squabbling within the folk movement. The main difference between the Fox and the Singers' Club was that, at the Singers' Club, the general feeling was that the Tradition was moribund ('debris' as Bert described it) and needed reviving. At the Fox, where traditional singers, musicians and dancers such as Bampton Morris were regularly invited and encouraged to do whatever pleased them, with no rules or regulations on repertory or style, tradition was very much alive and was being encouraged to continue and thrive.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST,Anne Neilson
Date: 07 Feb 15 - 09:22 PM
Bottom line is that we should all be grateful for MacColl's hard work in promoting and publishing repertoire that would otherwise have been unavailable.
I know of many local (Glaswegian) singers who extended their repertoire in the '60s, thanks to his publication of (such as) 'Personal Choice'. (And I remember a time when every folk evening included someone thrashing the hell out of 'Auchendoun' --possibly because we lacked the opportunity of understanding its background?)
It would be lovely to find ourselves in a place where everyone could accept that certain people are entirely significant to ongoing song performance -- both traditional and current!
Having down-played MacColl's importance in the past --in private conversations with close friends --I'm now happy to acknowledge his real and significant contribution to current repertoire (both traditional and contemporary).
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 02:57 AM
well yes....I think it does matter. Have you threatened Jim with violence or not?
If you have. I think, at very least you owe Jim a proper apology.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 04:23 AM
'The Great Debate'
Bit of a travesty of what really happened there Vic, bearing little resemblance to the recording of the events.
MacColl opened the meeting from the platform by introducing the speakers - little more than that.
"Bert kept away from the potential 'action' on stage"
Bert made the opening statement, speaking for about ten minutes on the song tradition and how he felt it should relate to what was happening in the revival.
Alex Campbell, somewhat drunk, made a rambling contribution telling the audience somewhat partonisingly how he "loved the auld folk" and went on to complain bitterly how newcomers on the scene (this would include The Watersons, and all the others who were springing into prominence at the time) were being paid the same fees as he, as a seasoned performer, was getting.
Davenport went on at length about the difference between Art with a capital "A" and art with a small "a", how it had little to do with the working classes and the bourgeois nature of the folk scene.
MacColl, as chairman, far from sitting at the sidelines threatening to "bottle people", threw the discussion open to the floor; it is somewhat difficult to follow some of the contributions, because of where the recordist was sitting presumably, but mainly because they were all interrupted by Davenport's loudly aggressive interventions - he constantly ignored the other participant's requests to let others have their say.
When MacColl, who had not made a statement, attempted to sum up the proceedings, he was constantly interrupted and at one point, shouted down by Davenport (not "a young woman from the audience").
At one point someone mentioned Jeannie Robertson's contribution to the revival and Bob said something like, "Jeannie's a terrible singer" - sounds of shouts and chairs falling over - and, in the words of the Bard, "the rest is silence"
I've no idea where Dave Arthur's description of the meeting came from, but it certainly appeared not to come from someone with a desire to paint an accurate picture of the events; "such stuff as dreams are made on", as the Bard also said.
I'm archiving all of our MacColl information at present and passing it on to Neill MacColl in the hope he can make it available on their new website - 'The Great Debate' will be included, an interesting piece of revival history that cuts across many of the myths and legends.
In August, 1961, in Sing' magazine MacColl announced that he was starting a new club due to the commercial pressure being put on the folk scene - editor, Karl Dallas, cites MacColl's break with Ballads and Blues as down to a "disagreement over artistic policy".
MacColl finishes his announcement with the following:
"5. Finally, we need standards. Already the race for the quick pound note is on in the folk song world. "Quaint" songs, risque songs, poor instrumentation and no - better - than - average voices; coupled with a lack of respect for the material: against these we will fight."
"If you have. I think, at very least you owe Jim a proper apology."
Leave it Al - it's a Mudcat archived matter of record, diggable out for anybody of the mind to do so - no longer an issue unless it is repeated and certainly not worth wrecking a half-decent discussion for.
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 05:07 AM
in Sing' magazine MacColl announced that he was starting a new club due to the commercial pressure being put on the folk scene - editor, Karl Dallas, cites MacColl's break with Ballads and Blues as down to a "disagreement over artistic policy"
.,,.
A bit of confusion in above from Jim, perhaps -- or maybe I misread that bit -- but the editor of 'Sing' was Eric Winter, not Karl Dallas. Karl did indeed edit more than one journal in his time, but never 'Sing', I am confident. If he did engage there with MacColl, it would have been as fellow-contributor, not in any editorial capacity.
≈M≈
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 05:16 AM
i wouldn't mind a quick pound note or two
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 06:05 AM
I have much better things to do than waste my time being violent towards Jim Carroll, Quite frankly I have no idea what he is on about.
of course Jim is absolutely right Ewan was always the most wonderful humourous polite person, when he condemned a song about vietnam in a critics group meeting he was just having a little humourous MacColl joke, when members of the critics group said that the group fell apart because the parents went away and let the children play unattended, there was no acrimony, everyone thought everything was rosy in the garden and they all lived happily ever after.
what a lovely fairy story.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 06:06 AM
"but the editor of 'Sing' "
Sorry Mike - pretty certain it was Dallas's magazine - still have it here somewhere though I may have the name wrong - will dig it out later
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 06:53 AM
"MacColl finishes his announcement with the following:
"5. Finally, we need standards. Already the race for the quick pound note is on in the folk song world. "Quaint" songs, risque songs, poor instrumentation and no - better - than - average voices; coupled with a lack of respect for the material: against these we will fight."
the quote sounds like a quote from Chairman Mao and his little red book, it absolutely typifies the style of MacColl.
most of us would agree with the idea of standards, but what is wrong with risque songs occasionally? who is he to define poor instrumentation when he was not noted for having any competence on any instrument,he mentions an average voice, without qualifying, does he mean the inabilty to hold a tune,bad breath control or just the fact it is not his personal taste.
The impression i get from this statement is one of a person who is self important and pompous who likes the sound of his own voice, who the feck was he to talk about poor instrumentation , when his own playing was basic and mediocre, he was just out of his depth and unqualified on that point.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Good Soldier Schweik
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 07:03 AM
MacColls strengths were his song writing and his professional presentation, his singing technique was also very good, to my ears his singing has no continuity with scottish tradtional singsers like jeannie robertson, or jimmy mcbeath. or the stewarts of blair
on the occasions i saw him perform he gave a very good night.
if he had stuck to talking about that which he did well it would have been more useful.
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 07:55 AM
"the quote sounds like a quote from Chairman Mao and his little red book, it absolutely typifies the style of MacColl."
Didn't know The Chairman was into folksong -though I quite understand your objection to someone demanding respect for and applying standards to the singing of folksongs
Thanks to the intervention of people like yourself, it's extremely difficult to know exactly what he said about the singing of fol;k songs
I don't know anybody who can claim to be a continuity with those you mentioned, certainly nowadays, when their styles have been completely rejected by most singers on the scene, as have, in many cases, the songs they sang as being out of date or "tit-trousers"
Jeannie would be booed off the stage for singing "long, boring ballads" by today's values (as was Joe Heaney some fifty years ago).
MacColl and others introduced ballads like hers onto the scene - MacColl breathed life into 137 Child ballads and at no time did he compromise them with Mickey-Mouse groups turning them into electric soups, or long, intrusive guitar runs, or the peculiar hiccuppy phrasing which some of the superstars indulge in along with those desperately trying to sound like them.
Bronson described Bert's and Ewan's Riverside series of ballads as groundbreaking in the field of ballad understanding
There has been no other artist on the folk scene who has done as much to preserve ballads like those Jeannie sang - at leas forty albums of them - all sung with the competence, understanding and the respect that he believed these "pieces of high art" are.
At least half a dozen people over the last few days have commented on MacColl's brilliant analysis of 'Clyde Water' and the way Ewan's singing of it it was edited by Paula.
"if he had stuck to talking about that which he did well it would have been more useful"
We have amassed something like 200 to 300 tapes of Ewan working with and passing on his ideas to younger singers - if it wasn't for continuing backbiting snidery and irrelevant inanities such as these, we might be allowed to discuss them
Jim Carroll
Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - any first-hand anecdotes?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 08 Feb 15 - 10:45 AM
Jeannie would be booed off the stage for singing "long, boring ballads" by today's values
Well, that would very much depend on where she was singing. Personally, I have never seen anyone booed off the stage in a folk music setting in over 50 years of attending them so I would very much doubt it. (Not that there have not been numerous occasions when I would have felt compelled to join in had booing started but folkies, in my experience, sometimes err on the side of politeness....) but as Jeannie's name has been raised again in this thread:-
Jeannie Robertson
Perhaps the most emotionally moving of all the traditional singers that I ever heard. I feel very privileged to have heard her on quite a number of occasions during the last seven years of her life. I remember each of them vividly. When her daughter, Lizzie Higgins, phoned up to tell us of her mother's death, she told us that the last meal that Jeannie cooked was for Tina and I on our last visit to her small council flat in Aberdeen where she lived with her brother-in-law, Isaac – or 'Seely' to give him his travellers' by-name. Somehow, I have always felt that this 'last meal' was a great honour.
I loved hearing Jeannie sing and I loved her recordings. Jeannie died in 1975 but it was not until 1998 that the album Queen Among The Heather was released by Rounder in the Alan Lomax Collection: Portrait series. The main date of these recordings was 1953. To say that I was gob-smacked by them is an understatement. It was clearly the same exquisite voice but everything – repertoire, pace, timing, approach was different. After a few listenings, I came to prefer the earlier recordings that Lomax had made to what my memory told me of Jeannie's singing.
What caused the great difference? There is little doubt in my mind that head of this straightforward Aberdeenshire traveller was turned by the huge heaps of praise that senior academics, ethnomusicologists, ballad scholars etc. were forming queues to bestow on her.* Her singing changed in the years of her public acclaim. She slowed down her singing to give enhancement to the beauty of her wonderful voice. Her repertoire narrowed with the likes of Handsome Cabin Boy and Never Wed An Auld Man neglected and she concentrated on the big ballads which she sang slowly and very beautifully – but sometimes too slowly so that the story suffered.
OK. Now the relevance of the above to this thread and now I am addressing Jim Carroll.
Jim. You obviously consider the fact that Bob Davenport said that he thought that Jeannie was a terrible singer to be very important since you have already mentioned it four times in this thread – [ 04 Feb 11 - 04:02 AM, 26 Jan 15 - 11:04 AM, 06 Feb 15 - 04:27 AM, 08 Feb 15 - 04:23 AM ] – but the fact is that Bob didn't always hate Jeannie's singing; he hated the singer that she had become. Bob does not need me to speak for him, but the folk song diva that she was in her later years and the reasons for it, the intervention of fawning praise of the folk song intelligentia were anathema to the approach that Bob favoured.
You wrote 'all sung with the competence, understanding and the respect that he believed these "pieces of high art" are.' but as we know or as we can deduce from the excellent way that Dave Arthur distinguishes the Fox/Singers Club difference in my quotation above, "high art" was exactly the problem for BD.
* See page 3 of "Jeannie Robertson: Emergent Singer, Transformative Voice" (James Porter & Herschel Gower. University of Tennessee Press 1995) ISBN 1 898410 84 4
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