Tin Whistles

Subject: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 02:42 PM

I have threatened the whistle for some years now. I have a number and they all have little problems of their own. Some have trouble with the top of the scale and some the bottom. Some overblow to the octave reasonably well and some throw in 5ths and so on.

I have a James Galway, a Feaoog, a silver Shaw and a couple of Generations, so to speak, each in D. No seem to work as they should.

is this just cheap product variation and failure, do I need to boil them in pig's blood or something or is it me and practice?

should I go up market and buy something much better?

Cheers

Les
honest i won't play it near you.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: skipy
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 02:44 PM

Never mind the Whistles, it's the bell in my head!
Skipy in a white wine sauce.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Whistlepenny
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 02:48 PM

I prefer the Clarke Sweetone - easy on the pocket and they are usually true all the way up (I think I've only ever had one duff one, that leaked spit through the seam at the back after a long set - nice!!). And they come in lots of nice colours.

Claire
x

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 03:01 PM

I WONT buy a whistle unless I can try it , or they promise to replace it if its unsatisfactory ! A GOOD Generation is a perfectly good whistle while a BAD one is not worth its scrap value !
I know they are a lot pricier , but give Tony Dixon Whistles a try !
Never sure wether they're the best of the reasonably priced or the cheapest of the 'good' ones !

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 03:05 PM

Do they have machines for blowing in to them?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Leadfingers
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 03:36 PM

As Breath control is probably THE most important thing with getting the 'right' sound , you HAVE to try Them ! I wont part with a penny until the PROMISE to excahnge , IF the whistle doesnt work !
I once went through a shops entire stock of Generations and told them that ALL of them were faulty and should be returned

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 17 Jan 08 - 06:43 PM

Is sharing whistles still aloud (?)

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:13 AM

I bought two green Gens recently, both perfect. Maybe the quality control has picked up a bit. At the 2006 Audlem BPAHGD someone showed me a wonderful whistle, economical on breath, loud but not too much, well in tune, made by a bloke in South Yorkshire... Barnsley or Penistone or Oughtibridge I think. Unfortunately it cost a small fortune (£180 IIRC) and I lost the URL quickly.

I think many people's problems stem from breath control and style, particularly heavily tongued styles. If you soften from the classical-stlye t-t-t to brushing the tongue gently forward across the hard palate, not even closing, you can get good articulation (a sort of hl-hl-hl) without the heavy attack that most whistles don't seem to take well to. Still better use fingered grace notes to articulate, like Scotch pipers have to.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 04:39 AM

Found the URL again... the whistle was the soprano D acetal...
Silkstone Whistles

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:00 AM

Look no further than a Fred Rose, based in Nelson, Lancashire, just a hop up the M60/66 from Chorlton. This might be an overstatement, but Fred seems to be fast becoming the Stefan Sobell of whistle makers.

His whistles are all high D's made from Blackwood and Delrin. The delrin whistles are superb, each one created and voiced individually and probably the best plastic whistle I've played (though admittedly that's, er, two), but the wooden whistles are on another level.

The blackwood is sourced from a village in Tanzania where it is harvested sustainably by a local family - true frairtrade wood. The mouthpiece and trim is silver and plays like a dream - the whistle seems to want to be played. I got mine in November and love it - I had a Bleazey before but struggled with it (especially in the second register) but no such issues with the Rose.

On top of all this, Fred is a loverly bloke and a true craftsman. A visit to his workshop is a delight, and the quality of his workmanship second to none. They are costly - but I can't see me ever wanting another whistle, as nothing I've heard comes close to a Rose.

P.S. I have to declare a slight interest here - Fred is a good friend of a good friend of mine (!) and it was him who put me in touch with Fred originally. The URL is http://www.fredrose.co.uk.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:08 AM

How long will it be before I play well enough to justify a £180 whistle?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,Dáithí
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 05:48 AM

i have a Clarks, tweaked by Jerry Freeman, which keeps the slightly breathy sound associated with conical whistles..but it's a bit quiet for sessions (fine for amplified performance though).
It's great right through the range, and doesn't suck the breath out of you like the regular ones.Cost me £23 from Big whistles in Accrington, lancs.
My usual whistle though, which I use in performance and at sessions, is a Susato (plastic). Never had a problem, and it's tunable. Costs about £20 these days, I think.

Adh mór!
Dáithí

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Stu
Date: 18 Jan 08 - 09:23 AM

"How long will it be before I play well enough to justify a £180 whistle?"

A good point and I'm in the same boat, but I was lucky enough to save up some 40th birthday money and get the whistle. I play it out but am still only starting, but once I heard the Rose that was that.

My £18 Dixon is OK though.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 06:53 AM

"I have threatened the whistle for some years now. I have a number and they all have little problems of their own."

Don't worry - it's usually just the nut at the blowing end that's the cause of all the trouble! Keep changing that till you get a good one!

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 10:12 AM

I have never played a whistle that was a satisfactory instrument.

The whistle was the instrument of the poor - cheap to make but hard to play. They worked culturally because people listened to someone's tune and overlooked the squeaks, as if saying, 'We know what you were trying to play.'

If you want a real instrument of that type, get a recorder.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Ernest
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 10:21 AM

Recorders on the other hand are (in)famous as instruments of torture in the hands/mouths of offenders under the age of criminal responsibility...

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 11:07 AM

I clear whistle played well brings joy not generally associated with the recorder, I think.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Whistlepenny
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 02:31 PM

Whistles vs recorders? No contest! A whistle is lyrical, in the right hands it can sing, slide, soar and tremble - the recorder sounds just (how can I put this politely?) *bland* in comparison.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jan 08 - 02:51 PM

Much more fun playing in 'silly' keys on a whistle ! You have to 'make' the note , rather than just remember a silly fingering position !
And I find I can play stuff on a whistle that I could never do justice to on Clarinet or Sax !!

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:53 AM

"(in)famous as instruments of torture in the hands/mouths of offenders under the age of criminal responsibility..."

There's a very good simple technical reason for this... :-)

With a Recorder - funnily enough, less so for a whistle, probably because a recorder is a more "intensely designed" instrument than the more "natural built" whistle - the fipple is far more sensitive to "overblowing". Beginners, especially youngsters, often tend to blow far too hard, which results in that awful tone. It's a bit akin to a novice violinist pressing too hard on the bow, and getting that horrible scratchy sound. Both cases involve the fact that the more advanced the player, the more they 'relax' and can 'touch the instrument lightly'.

A very good advanced player can often get an acceptable sound out of a "$2 cheapie", and that is much the same for whistles. The reason for THIS is that the more advanced the player, the better their ability to "listen and blow in the notes", as well as that 'touch the instrument lightly' ability. Practice, Practice, Practice!

What did I mean by that "intensely designed" / "natural built" stuff?

Well the whistle is a diatonic instrument, (normally) only producing notes within the (originally just tempered, but nowadays well tempered) 8 note scale. A recorder is designed, like most 'modern' wind instruments to be fully chromatic, producing all 12 pitches in a 'standard tempered' octave.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 05:06 PM

Whistlepenny wrote:

Whistles vs recorders? No contest! A whistle is lyrical, in the right hands it can sing, slide, soar and tremble - the recorder sounds just (how can I put this politely?) *bland* in comparison.

Bland! rubbish! You have obviously never heard a recorder played by a real expert. A recorder can do all the things you describe for a whistle and more.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:05 PM

Freud, that's all.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 07:29 PM

The difference between a recorder and whistle is the fingerholes, not the bore or the fipple/labium. The Susato "renaissance recorders" are exactly the same mouldings and tubing as their whistles but with the fingerholes in different places. And most of the upmarket whistlemakers now make instruments with conical bore and curved windways which have been borrowed from recorder design - drill the fingerholes in different places and they would *be* recorders.

That is, Foolestroupe's "intensely designed" stuff doesn't make any sense. The elements of the design that make for chromatic fingering and those which make for different tonal characteristics are completely independent of each other.

Recorders are also not necessarily designed for "standard tempering". High-end Baroque ones are often configured to make mean-tone the default, but most recorders are flexible enough in pitch to fit in with a range of tuning systems - even the cheapest plastic school descant will let you play C# lower than Db or G# lower than Ab, as you get in meantone.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Slag
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 08:20 PM

Penny whistles 180 pounds! Wow! Fipple flutes! Recorders. Ever try an Ocarina? How about a tinpenny whistle and a framing hammer? Bang!

Honestly, I have seldom encountered whistles in the music stores I frequent here on the West Coast, USA. I will either have to open my eyes more or start investigating this instrument. The things you learn on the 'Cat! Thanks all for the discussion!

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Bert
Date: 20 Jan 08 - 08:25 PM

...especially youngsters, often tend to blow far too hard, which results in that awful tone....

Heaven forbid that they can make an instrument that you can just blow into and it works.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 05:11 AM

Which famous rock single had an Ocarina solo?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 09:27 AM

Trogg Thing, by the Wilds?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 10:15 AM

Spot on PMB, and not a lot of people .................

Ok '60s rock group with a steel pan solo .........

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Davie_
Date: 21 Jan 08 - 01:01 PM

I used to play clarke sweet tones, nice whistles and perfect for learners, easy on the pocket as well. If its a bit more upmarket you are after, then the Rose as mentioned above is nice. Personaly I use the Overton, again not cheap, and if required you can purchase the tunable type.
For volume..the Susato is probably the loudest and not too expensive either, goes for around the same price as the Dixon also a nice whistle.
I dont like the chieftan whisles at all.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,Vin
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 08:51 AM

I've got a few Generations which are mostly ok - prefer the C. I've had one for years and still go back to it despite the mouthpiece looking a bit worse for wear - it still sounds better to me than one i bought fairly recently. My other fave is a Walton D mellow geen top - nice sound.

For anyone around the area, there's a 'big (& little) Whistle' week-end at the 'Met' in Bury in May - 8th, 9th & 10th. Very successfull last year apparently.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:47 AM

People don't seem to be distinguishing what I think are two questions - which whistles are suitable for solos, and which for accompaniment? I mainly do the former, so I'm much less fussy. Generations are fine, but they need warming up first - keep a set down your singlet! The old Sharp tapering ones were brilliant because it was very difficult to accidentally overblow them - mainly because it was almost impossible to play them for more than two minutes unless you had borrowed a pair of lungs from a friendly elephant! Nice tone though.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,Suffolk Miracle
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:49 AM

Clarke not Sharp. Sorry Cecil.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:58 AM

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xNL6pufEJJI

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 11:40 AM

Amazin, and it did play it tastefully didn't he Reg I believe

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 11:46 AM

Aye, I recall my first whistle was one o'those tapered kind, with a wooden plug stuck in the mouthpieve - used to get sodden after plaing some time!

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 04:48 PM

I think you mean Shaw, not Sharp. The oldest ones had a plug made of lead.

The best whistle I've ever had was an "Atlas", made in Paris, probably before WW2. It was a very thin moulding of cream phenolic resin, streaky like piano keys, reverse conical bore, with the holes surrounded by raised bumps. I lost it when I was robbed in Dublin. The thug probably threw it in the bin.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 08:59 PM

Is there any other instrument where you you can pay around $20 and get something that actualy plays (or more to the point can be played)beautifully? Is a recorder better? Listen to a great whistle player you know that the apparently limited note vocabulary does not keep them from expressing themselves or playing anything they care to.

I have a number of whistles and I find the Sweetone ($8) is rather hard to play, I prefer the Original Clarke even if it is $5 more.
I have been pleased with all my D & C Susatos ($18), bought a bummer of a Susato Low D the holes were irregular and erose in spots and just hard to play. ($35)If I ever find the factory I'll wqalk in and ask for a refund On the other hand I bought a low F Susato that plays (Or I Can Play) like a charme.
Have not cared for thew Acorns I have Bought ($12), but the Aluminum Low G Chieftan my wife gave me ($120) has a great sound.

As it has been said the key to geting the whistle to work well is breath controll. A most common problem is starting out blowing to hard so you might be in a higher octave when you start. You can get 3 octives out of most whistles but the top one rarley sounds good. I found it useful to think of blowing "faster" rather than "harder" to go up an octave, semantics I know but like with golf instruction it is a "Feel" thing....errr not that anyone asked!

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 09:27 PM

Recorders are better value at any price point. The cheap ones (except for the very nasty one-piece toys) are made with better quality control than whistles at the same price - manufacturing volume counts, and many more recorders than whistles are produced. High-end hand-finished recorders are also better for the same money (several hundred years of design experience helps), though in this category you can always get a lemon with either. And no whistle matches the very best hand-made recorders.

Just try to find any whistle that matches a Mollenhauer/Breukink Dream Flute for the same money (mid-price). It's comparable to a Copeland whistle.

One category nobody's mentioned yet is cane whistles - I have two good ones, one made in China in the late 1970s and a Romanian one from a few years ago (both high D). The Chinese one is a bit like a more civilized Susato; the Romanian one (narrower bore) was supplied badly finished, with a very rough bore, but after internal sanding and oiling it sounds like a superior Dixon. The cheapest cane whistles (the Indian ones) even make a Generation sound good.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Rowan
Date: 22 Jan 08 - 10:38 PM

Recorders are better value at any price point. The cheap ones (except for the very nasty one-piece toys) are made with better quality control than whistles at the same price - manufacturing volume counts, and many more recorders than whistles are produced. High-end hand-finished recorders are also better for the same money (several hundred years of design experience helps), though in this category you can always get a lemon with either. And no whistle matches the very best hand-made recorders.

Jack, while you're technically correct about different locations of finger holes and fingering, I think your comment copied above states what Foolestroupe was getting at when he wrote

[a recorder is] a more "intensely designed" instrument than the more "natural built" whistle

I must admit that the sounds of school children learning recorders can be extremely offputting but those experiences ought not be regarded as defining the capabilities of instruments. I no longer have the LP record of David Munroe (? I can no longer recall the correct spelling) playing recorders and just about everything else that was a renaissance woodwind but his ability knocked any notions the instrument was not as good as a tin whistle very much into a cocked hat.

I also suspect some of us are confusing preferences for particular styles with preferences for particular players or instruments. There's no doubt that James Galway knows his way around what most English speakers would call a "concert flute" but he just can't cut the mustard when compared to Matt Molloy playing what the Irish call a concert flute. And having heard James Galway playing a tin whistle (I've no idea of the brand) I'd not give him more than busking money by comparison with Mary Bergin. This may indicate my preference for the styles of the players who are ensconced firmly in the particularly Irish traditional music styles over James' formal 'classical' training in style.

These comparisons seem (to me) to be analagous to the comparisons people are making in the examples above. I've heard superb playing of Persian music (in the modes of which you'd be familiar) on the same sort of "ordinary" recorder used by better students. And Irish tunes as well, with all the appropriate decorations.

It's more often the player who is limited rather than the instrument.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,Nick
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 06:11 PM

So would it be safe to say that if someone plays a whistle and sounds better than someone playing a recorder they are a better musician? If so by how much, 10%, 34.3%?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Jan 08 - 09:58 PM

From a viewpoint that is (hopefully) "objective", the one who plays with better attention to the intended style and who achieves more highly in that style is probably the better player in that style, irrespective of which instrument is being played.

But, in the end, it all comes down to the values of the players and the listeners and how such values are understood and/or shared.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 04:54 AM

Isn't the bottom line (not sure where that expression comes from)simply this; someone makes music, it either does something for you or it doesn't? I am prepared to accept some kind of scale from nothing, through not much, to quite a bit to ...... pick your own final state, and that what you feel may touch a range of human emotions. All other judgements about technical skill and shared values are secondary to what it does for you when you hear it?

Generally the whistles does more for me than the recorder, but that's for me. What it does for others will generally not change how it affects me, I think.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:34 AM

I find it slightly odd, Jack, that you who are so enthusiastic about the instrumental traditions of Eastern European and Middle Eastern countries, are so dismissive of the Irish and English traditions of the whistle. I've been playing in the Irish tradition for well over 30 years, and have met many excellent players (most of whom are better than ne btw), but I can confidently say that there are few who can approach the best styles on a recorder; the music has to be modified. Which isn't to say it's not good, of course, but I've never wanted to play it that way. I'm sure you wouldn't recomment a mey player to take up clarinet instead?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 05:42 AM

Haven't heard of a 'mey' - what sort've instrument is it?

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:24 AM

"James Galway playing a tin whistle"

I've got one branded with his name on it - cheap and nasty looking thing it is too...

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 08:54 AM

The James Galway whistle was sold at nearly four times the price of a D Generation , in a plastic pack with an instruction book ! Quality control was obviously a lot better than with Genreration and on one occasion I came across a Box full of galways , UnPacked , at £1,25p d each , rather than the Eight or so normally charged ! I bought Five for a fiver , sold two at £2.50 each and still have the other three FREE whistles and they work well !!

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: oggie
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:30 AM

A "mey" is a double reeded (so nearer an oboe than a clarinet) wind instrument. Imagine a wooden whistle with a reed intead of a mouthpiece.

A mey being played

Steve

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Vin2
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:53 AM

Nicely put les.

I play penny/tin whistle mostly for my own amusement and occasionally at music/singarounds depending on how confident (or sadistic) i'm feeling. One thing i have not done yet and thinks i would find very difficult is joining in a session. I really admire those sessioners who seem to just pick up a tune with others as tho they're on a kind of 'mind blend' - as you would see/hear if you visit the Jolly Angler on a Sat night. I suppose practice and familiarity is the key with a dash of technical skill of course.

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:57 AM

Oggie,

Thanks for 'Mey' info.

Didn't know they were called that.

Years ago, a friend gave me one as a present from her holiday in Egypt.

To play, you had to put the whole double reed right inside your mouth.

It was all held together with waxy string, which got all slimy after playing for a while – ugh!

Subject: RE: Tin Whistles
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Jan 08 - 09:58 AM

Is that the Manc 'Jolly Angler'?

Long ago had the pleasure've playing some tunes there with the late, great John Snelson